[Theory] Yata Mirror and Sword of The Totsuka

[KCMNaruto]

Only Madara knows
Then I wonder how Itachi found those weapons and where?
Some new facts that came up with your theory that I found while replying your post

I have same questions bugging my mind xD
Really ?? then I am goona read them asap =D

Also one more thing about Yata Mirror

Spoiler

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What's written here is that the Yata mirror change its attributes in accordance with the attributes of the attack, rendering the attack ineffective.
This provides a proof that the Shield do not consider who the user is or how much powerful he is but instead it considers how powerful the incoming attack will be and accordingly changes its attributes like its strength etc. to match with the attack and thus nullifies it.
Your thoughts on this.

I thought that as well before, however then I began to wonder why didn't Itachi use Yata Mirror against Chibaku Tensei, and my answer keeping iny my mind is that Chibaku Tensei > anything Itachi was capable of using =D.
That could confirm my theory, that when opponent > wielder then weapons of wielder don't work at all =D

I know your point of view to this question anad that Naruto and Killer Bee where there as well, but still doesn't make sense If you have shield which can protect you 100 %(Yata being supposed invincible ) then why wouldn't you use it ?, It simply doesn't make sense there must be something Itachi knew about Yata and that why he didn't use it, I think...

I have even theory that Yata Mirror and Totsuka Blade were created By Sage of six paths with help of Rinnengan, that why Yata Mirror and Totsuka Blade could be repeled by Rinnengan user but he has to know these counters and without knowledge about counters Rinnengan user would fall to these weapons as well.

About the Totsuka Sword

Spoiler

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What's written here is that "Liquid spilling from its gourd bottle turns into the Kusanagi blade. Souls sucked out by sword are sealed inside."
If the sword can liquify then how will it get shattered?
The wielder can make happen the solidification of the Totsuka sword from mere liquid to a strong sword with his own will. Also if the sword is blocked or the attack is nullified, the sword can turn into liquid

Well, you brought very good points again for me think once again about possible holes in my theory. I admit that it sounds very possible.

Ok, I will take my words back about Totsuka shattering against opponent, but still I keep saying that If opponent > wielder then Totsuka blade doesn't work on opponent simple. However Totsuka blade wouldn't be shattered but simply doesn't work

Is that sounds better for you ? =D

I had to consider once again what I spoke in my previous post except its last part. I overlooked the theory.
The most important thing I found from the word "Kusanagi" which will turn your whole theory completely into new direction.

Spoiler

Kusanagi in the series is mostly related to Orochimaru's snake sword which in real terms is also said as Sword of Kusanagi. Also the sword Sasuke wields is a snake sword which also called as Sword of Kusanagi
In general, the the word Kusanagi is referred to the snake.
We witnessed that Orochimaru's Kusanagi sword couldn't pierce through Naruto in four tail mode but also the sword didn't broke or shattered irrespective of its length created/formed.
Even Sasuke attacked Itachi (in susano'o holding the Yata Mirror) with his Kusanagi sword, the sword didn't pierce through but also broke or shattered.
Orochimaru controlled the use of his Snake sword, its extension, its retraction according to his own will.
Similarly the Totsuka sword gets solidifies according to wielder's will. See here

Spoiler

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In the above image, Itachi solidified the sword when one of the seven snakes attacked him.

Spoiler

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In the above image, Bottom right panel first quote

Spoiler

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In the above image, Top right panel first quote
Black Zetsu mentioned that Orochimaru was searching this sword for a long time.
Then you can guess what Orochimaru was doing?
He was gathering all the Kusanagi swords
He already had two of them, one in his mouth and the other he gave it to Sasuke. The Totsuka sword was the sealing sword which he eagerly wanted but couldn't found it.
Out of Itachi's attacks with the sword and his defense with the Yata mirror, Orochimaru recognized the Totsuka sword when the sword started sucking him up.
The sword as well as the shield is a spiritual weapon, that is why Itachi safeguard it into his Susano'o which is also a spiritual embodiment of the Uchiha's personality.

Then I think Black Zetsu heard it from Orochimaru himself that is the reason why Itachi found it before Orochimaru and hid it into his Susano'o.

This proves that Uchihas has no connection to the Totsuka sword and hence Madara.

Hmm..., Very interesting and nice research you brought =D. Ok, I understand that now you believe that Madara didn't hear or know about Totsuka blade and Yata Mirror. However I have to disagree because Madara read Uchiha Tablet's content, which brings question: "Did Sage of six paths have any contact with Yata Mirror or Totsuka blade ?"

If answer is yes then Madara should know about these weapons from Uchiha tablet, however if answer is no then Madara most likely didn't have idea about these sacred weapons =D

However I still believes that weapons (Yata Mirror and Totsuka blade in this example) are that strong as their's wielder. In other words Yata Mirror will repel any attacks and Totsuka blade will seall every opponent until wielder >= Opponent but if Opponent > Wielder, then I believe that opponent could at least fight back against being sealed by Totsuka Blade as well as opponent's attack could pass through Yata Mirror and attack wielder or Yata mirror could only repel part of attack which is in capability of wielder's power/strength and rest of attack could pass through Yata hitting wielder.

In all cases above, Yata Mirror and Totsuka Blade will be undamaged but instead just ineffective against opponent stronger then wielder of weapons

I came up with one idea more after reading your interesting reply. What If Yata Mirror and Totsuka Blade works on opponent that long until Wielder's will > opponent's will(but again what could define power/strength of will ?), then it would similliar to my theory but strength and power would be replaced by sheer will.

Reasons why I believe Yata Mirror and Totsuka blade are dependant on wielder's capability:

- Kishi is fan of Dragon Ball manga
- Every technique has weakness
- Almost every technique stated to be ultimate offence or deffence were later surprassed by another technique
- Itachi while wielding Yata Mirror and Totsuka blade had faced only opponents weaker then him, exactly. Itachi didn't face opponent stronger then him not even once(Killer Bee, Naruto, Madara, Obito etc.)
- Kishi always put limit on everything so nothing is invincible even if he stated before something is invincible then he contradicts this fact with new manga fact.
- Databook are outdated and Kishi as human can change his mind many times and I am sure that he has changed his mind many times already.
- Totsuka blade weren't used against any tailed beast, jinchurki or Sussano not even once.
- Yata Mirror weren't shown deflecting or nullify attack as Bijuudama made of Ying Yang elements
- Kishi in Databook used many times hiperbole to give stronger meaning to certain things even if they were just hiperboles
- Yata Mirror and Totsuka blade has yet to be put on Test against Juuubi or Sage of six paths
- I refuse to believe that Kishi would allows Itachi to solo Juubi or Sage of six paths because Yata and Totsuka. Hell even Naruto, Obito and Madara at this point.
- Zetsu was just hyping this these weapons or Kishi was planing originally to finish manga after Attack on Konoha, with Pein being last villian. However he changed his mind and we see...
- Absolutely nothing is invincble or indefeatable, not even Juubi(supposed God who created Shinobi Word) and was sealed by Sage of six paths.
- Itachi could use Yata Mirror against Kabuto and keep still attacking him until Kabuto run out of chakra, then Itachi catch Kabuto in Genjutsu and Kabuto release Edo Tensei.
- Nowhere it was stated that Yata Mirror and Totsuka Blade are wielder independant so this is possiblity even if nowhere is stated that Yata and Totsuka are wielder dependant


Ok, I am done I hope you will understand my reasons why I believe in my theory. I will try to add something more later =D

It was really nice and great exchange of point of view at my theory and You just proved once again how excellent debater are you

 

[KCMNaruto]

Yes it completely depends how the wielder uses the weapons. No doubt about it. And my point was as you say, if the guy with the greater weapon (i.e. totsuka) fights a guy with a kunai, but he is too unskilled to land a hit, he will pay a greater cost in chakra for using a greater weapon, and he will eventually end up losing, unless his chakra amount is infinite or much greater than that of the other.

I agree completly with this =D

But this doesn't change the power in either of the weapons! A sharp or large sword, is just as sharp or large in the hands of a novice as in the hands of a pro. So the properties of the weapons, do not depend on the wielder. It's the efficiency of the weapons, that depends on the wielder!

^^This, I agree with you. However my point is completly different now because I altered my theory in mind a little after having discussion with few users including you and ahhimane of course

I believes that Totsuka Blade and Yata Mirror work on opponent that long until opponent > wieleder, and then they simply exist but don't work at this opponent at all. Yata Mirror simply let any attack of this opponent pass through it and attack wielder without taking any damage and Totsuka Blade can't simply seal opponent and opponent can't fight back while being sealed so if he overpowers wielder then he can escape Totsuka Blade sealing.

In short: Totsuka Blade and Yata Mirror are still unbreakable and invincible(atrributes don't change !) but work only when wielder > opponent

Hmm, yet a weapon is just a tool. A powerful tool can also make the wielder more powerful. There is no doubt, that any person capable of using the Yata mirror is quite terrifying as an opponent.. Yata mirror simply relays only one possible way of fighting, and that is not to attack. So in other words, you need one damn good defensive to last till the yata wielder runs out of chakra.
Then comes a sword, which cannot be blocked!

I partially agree with you, because as you said: "A powerful tool can also make the wielder more powerful", true. However Powerfull tool can't rise your own strength/power alone which you posses without this tool. I am sure that nor Totsuka or Yata could rise wielder's own power/strength. I could say even opposite that wielder's strength and power set limit on how much powerfull enemy can these weapons work.

In short: Yata is still able to nuliffy any attack but only to power level of wielder himself. When power level of opponent is surprassed then yata simply doesn't work. Same with Totsuka, that it can seal anything and anyone but only to power level of wielder himself. When power level of opponent is surprassed then opponent can fight back against being sealed by Totsuka blade with possibitly of escaping... or Totsuka doesn't seal at all, working as normal weapon and Yata too.

My reasons:

- Every technique has weakness
- Almost every technique stated to be ultimate offence or deffence were later surprassed by another technique
- Itachi while wielding Yata Mirror and Totsuka blade had faced only opponents weaker then him, exactly. Itachi didn't face opponent stronger then him not even once(Killer Bee, Naruto, Madara, Obito etc.)
- Absolutely nothing is invincble or indefeatable, not even Juubi(supposed God who created Shinobi Word) and was sealed by Sage of six paths.
- Itachi could use Yata Mirror against Kabuto and keep still attacking him until Kabuto run out of chakra, then Itachi catch Kabuto in Genjutsu and Kabuto release Edo Tensei.
- Nowhere it was stated that Yata Mirror and Totsuka Blade are wielder independant so this is possiblity even if nowhere is stated that Yata and Totsuka are wielder dependant
- Itachi didn't use Yata Mirror to protect himself and Naruto along with Killer Bee against being pulled into chibaku Tensei...

And lastly, but not least, the knowledge of the items. I bet the amount of people with knowledge of these weapons can be counted on one hand. Thus that would be a huge advantage as well. Their effects are simply unpredictable.

I completly agree with this^^ =D

Well, there has yet to come any weapon, which strength depends on the wielder. Surely some can alter the properties of a weapon, but that is also completely different!! So the "proof"-burden should be on your shoulders, not mine =) It's not like the sealing pot had anything to do with the user. Darui easily sealed Kinkaku (or was it gin, cant remember), yet having far from the same strength as him. Of course this may be a bad example, but there isn't really others.

I agree with you on this and I stated my reasons above =D

Idk about sealing pot easily sealing Kinkaku and Ginakaku, but we know that sealing pot is one of five treasures of Sage of six paths so there is high possibilty that they weapons are unique. However I am sure that even these five treasure have weakness but on creator has knowledge about it.

This wasn't great example but true nevertheless. Let's just wait and see

Until manga proves me wrong I will keep believe in my theory working =D

It was great discussion with you and I really enjoyed it

 

[-ahhimane-]

Hmm..., Very interesting and nice research you brought . Ok, I understand that now you believe that Madara didn't hear or know about Totsuka blade and Yata Mirror. However I have to disagree because Madara read Uchiha Tablet's content, which brings question: "Did Sage of six paths have any contact with Yata Mirror or Totsuka blade ?"

Lets keep our debate in this thread only.
Even if SO6P is the god of the Shinobi world, that doesn't mean the world must be revolving around the Senjuus and the Uchihas. bro...

Like Uzumakis and other clans who do not have any connection with the SO6P had many strong ninjutsus even if Similarly, what Orochimaru was after, can be someone else's creation meaning other clan's creation or his own clan's creation.

- Kishi is fan of Dragon Ball manga
- Every technique has weakness
- Almost every technique stated to be ultimate offence or deffence were later surprassed by another technique
- Itachi while wielding Yata Mirror and Totsuka blade had faced only opponents weaker then him, exactly. Itachi didn't face opponent stronger then him not even once(Killer Bee, Naruto, Madara, Obito etc.)
- Kishi always put limit on everything so nothing is invincible even if he stated before something is invincible then he contradicts this fact with new manga fact.
- Databook are outdated and Kishi as human can change his mind many times and I am sure that he has changed his mind many times already.
- Totsuka blade weren't used against any tailed beast, jinchurki or Sussano not even once.
- Yata Mirror weren't shown deflecting or nullify attack as Bijuudama made of Ying Yang elements
- Kishi in Databook used many times hiperbole to give stronger meaning to certain things even if they were just hiperboles
- Yata Mirror and Totsuka blade has yet to be put on Test against Juuubi or Sage of six paths
- I refuse to believe that Kishi would allows Itachi to solo Juubi or Sage of six paths because Yata and Totsuka. Hell even Naruto, Obito and Madara at this point.
- Zetsu was just hyping this these weapons or Kishi was planing originally to finish manga after Attack on Konoha, with Pein being last villian. However he changed his mind and we see...
- Absolutely nothing is invincble or indefeatable, not even Juubi(supposed God who created Shinobi Word) and was sealed by Sage of six paths.
- Itachi could use Yata Mirror against Kabuto and keep still attacking him until Kabuto run out of chakra, then Itachi catch Kabuto in Genjutsu and Kabuto release Edo Tensei.
- Nowhere it was stated that Yata Mirror and Totsuka Blade are wielder independant so this is possiblity even if nowhere is stated that Yata and Totsuka are wielder dependant

You made your theory on the basis of the databook and then turns and say that the Databook is outdated. There are lot many hyperbole facts in the databook and blah blah...
You even assumed that Kishi is just making another copy of Dragonball story. That's totally wrong. If he is inspired by dragonball story then that doesn't mean he's just copying it back again.
Itachi's word's are still alive I agree that.
But he obtained those two weapons because Orochimaru was after them and had planned to destroy the leaf. That's what Itachi's role was " Protecting his village from the shadows "
Every strong weapon does not belong to the Uchihas or the Senjus directly
What will you say for this "What if Orochimaru got the Totsuka sword and the Yata Mirror from the start and destroy Konoha?" then to which clan you'll refer those weapons?
Just because one Uchiha used those weapon doesn't mean those weapons belong to the Uchiha clan and is passed down from the So6P. Even the six treasures of So6P was under possession of the Cloud village.
Even if I proved or anyone else proved what the actual facts could be, you won't listen because you still believed what you wanted to believe even if the any clear proofs are presented in front of you

Ok, I am done I hope you will understand my reasons why I believe in my theory. I will try to add something more later

It was really nice and great exchange of point of view at my theory and You just proved once again how excellent debater are you

"Ok, I am done I hope you will understand my reasons" that's clearly an excuse bro and Do you still want me and others to believe in the theory even if it is partially or completely wrong?
I can't see where you're accepting the real facts of the story. Your words are clearly speaking that "No matter what, I'll stay what I want to believe"
You made the theory because those were related to the manga facts. But now it seems that you made your own theory for what you believe is true even if others don't completely agree with it.

Debate apart, this whole thing is just limited to this thread. I hope you enjoy the debate and don't give up so easily

 

[Shunsin no Shisui]

I love this thread, there is alot of logic. I totally agree with you bro. Basically what you're trying to say is that the sacred weapons Yata and Totsuka are as powerful as the manga states but to determine whether how effective they are and how long they will last in a fight entirely depends on the user, how skilled and talented the user is with the weapons and how much stamina(chakra) they have. Am I right? hmm

 

[KCMNaruto]

Lets keep our debate in this thread only.

I agree =D

Even if SO6P is the god of the Shinobi world, that doesn't mean the world must be revolving around the Senjuus and the Uchihas. bro...

Like Uzumakis and other clans who do not have any connection with the SO6P had many strong ninjutsus even if Similarly, what Orochimaru was after, can be someone else's creation meaning other clan's creation or his own clan's creation.

Ok I understand you point of view and agree completly =D

You made your theory on the basis of the databook and then turns and say that the Databook is outdated. There are lot many hyperbole facts in the databook and blah blah...
You even assumed that Kishi is just making another copy of Dragonball story. That's totally wrong. If he is inspired by dragonball story then that doesn't mean he's just copying it back again.

Well you are right, but I only said that because Databook being outdated could one other reason besides my theroy which is base on databook statements/ scans.

Itachi's word's are still alive I agree that.
But he obtained those two weapons because Orochimaru was after them and had planned to destroy the leaf. That's what Itachi's role was " Protecting his village from the shadows "
Every strong weapon does not belong to the Uchihas or the Senjus directly
What will you say for this "What if Orochimaru got the Totsuka sword and the Yata Mirror from the start and destroy Konoha?" then to which clan you'll refer those weapons?
Just because one Uchiha used those weapon doesn't mean those weapons belong to the Uchiha clan and is passed down from the So6P. Even the six treasures of So6P was under possession of the Cloud village.

Well, I completly agree once again but this wasn't point of my thread but still you are right =D

Even if I proved or anyone else proved what the actual facts could be, you won't listen because you still believed what you wanted to believe even if the any clear proofs are presented in front of you

No, you probably misunderstood me. First I didn't deny that this is only theory even if it makes a lot sense and is possible to be made true by Kishi.

Besides my main point of theory is only Totsuka Blade and Yata Mirror work on opponent if wielder>=opponent. If Opponent > wielder then opponent can break through Yata and fight back against Totsuka...

Rest content in my theory was just extras, but I agree completly with all points you made until now.

"Ok, I am done I hope you will understand my reasons" that's clearly an excuse bro and Do you still want me and others to believe in the theory even if it is partially or completely wrong?

It maybe sounds as excuse but I am simply out of idea's now which could support my point besides points I made until now which I remind not be countered until now.

I will simply wait until someone find proof to counter my maint I stated above.

I can't see where you're accepting the real facts of the story. Your words are clearly speaking that "No matter what, I'll stay what I want to believe"
You made the theory because those were related to the manga facts. But now it seems that you made your own theory for what you believe is true even if others don't completely agree with it.

Sorry If I sounded selfish or too stuborn. I will admit being wrong If someone give me proof against my theory, because everyone has right to have opinion and my opinion doesn't win against another one and make it true, I understand it.

I assure you that I made my all theories in accordance with manga facts and I am ready to admit defeat If someone give me proof against my theory.

Debate apart, this whole thing is just limited to this thread. I hope you enjoy the debate and don't give up so easily

Of course I enjoy debate a lot, but I can't come up with new idea's supported by manga facts/statements to support my theory further...

I will keep debatling If you want to prove me wrong or something. I am open minded to any idea so please post If you have any.

EDIT: If you find proofs or statement against these reasons then I will admit defeat:

- Every technique has weakness
- Almost every technique stated to be ultimate offence or deffence were later surprassed by another technique
-Itachi while wielding Yata Mirror and Totsuka blade had faced only opponents weaker then him, exactly. Itachi didn't face opponent stronger then him not even once(Killer Bee, Naruto, Madara, Obito etc.)
- Kishi always put limit on everything so nothing is invincible even if he stated before something is invincible then he contradicts this fact with new manga fact.
- Databook are outdated and Kishi as human can change his mind many times and I am sure that he has changed his mind many times already.
- Totsuka blade weren't used against any tailed beast, jinchurki or Sussano not even once.
- Yata Mirror weren't shown deflecting or nullify attack as Bijuudama made of Ying Yang elements
- Kishi in Databook used many times hiperbole to give stronger meaning to certain things even if they were just hiperboles
- Itachi could use Yata Mirror against Kabuto and keep still attacking him until Kabuto run out of chakra, then Itachi catch Kabuto in Genjutsu and Kabuto release Edo Tensei.
- Nowhere it was stated that Yata Mirror and Totsuka Blade are wielder independant so this is possiblity even if nowhere is stated that Yata and Totsuka are wielder dependant
- Itachi should use Yata Mirror to block Chibaku Tensei, however from strange reason he didn't do that.

* These bolded and underlined reasons are the strongest which support my theory

I love this thread, there is alot of logic. I totally agree with you bro. Basically what you're trying to say is that the sacred weapons Yata and Totsuka are as powerful as the manga states but to determine whether how effective they are and how long they will last in a fight entirely depends on the user, how skilled and talented the user is with the weapons and how much stamina(chakra) they have. Am I right? hmm

Thanks you a lot friend =D

Yes, you are basically right except main point you skipped: Totsuka Blade and Yata Mirror work on opponent if wielder>=opponent. If Opponent > wielder then opponent can break through Yata and fight back against Totsuka...

Anyway thank you very much for answer

 

[Recable]

Well I will start by saying, I don't think Yata Mirror or Totsuka blade is depended on the users chakra and such but only how good they are with a sword and shield.

Chibaku Tensei can't have been blocked by Yata Mirror simply because it wasn't thrown towards or trying to actually hit the Yata Mirror. The Chibaku instead fly's into the sky with a massive gravitational pull which pulls everything towards, but the user seeing as Nagato/Deva Pain didn't go flying into the Chibaku Tensei either.

Sasuke has a 1% chance in my opinion of getting the Yata Mirror or Totsuka blade seeing as they aren't attached to Itachi's Susano'o but instead equipped to it. The items are either lost forever since Itachi is now dead or they have been scattered somewhere else in the world, with maybe a different look or size.

Also Manga has already stated and some parts are in the data book as well that Yata Mirror can block all attacks and that Totsuka blade seals anything it pierces.

The reason Kishimoto wasn't worried about having these overpowered pieces of equipment in the Manga is that Itachi had them and as he was going to willingly die anyway, the two pieces of equipment would be forever lost with him.

@bold in my comment, that's only my opinion though it seems true

Sasuke hasn't shown Yata Mirror or Totsuka blade while using his full Susano'o as well which is another reason why he most likely doesn't have them.

True every Jutsu has a weakness, but the thing is, Totsuka blade and Yata Mirror are both not a Jutsu.

 

[Mellanoma]

You technically cant block chibaku tensei since its not an attack at all. Its just gravity being pulled to epicenter

Also as in most anime. A lot of items are over inflated tales of epicness by people who are weak. Very nice theory though.

 

[Recable]

EDIT: If you find proofs or statement against these reasons then I will admit defeat:

- Every technique has weakness
- Almost every technique stated to be ultimate offence or deffence were later surprassed by another technique
-Itachi while wielding Yata Mirror and Totsuka blade had faced only opponents weaker then him, exactly. Itachi didn't face opponent stronger then him not even once(Killer Bee, Naruto, Madara, Obito etc.)
- Kishi always put limit on everything so nothing is invincible even if he stated before something is invincible then he contradicts this fact with new manga fact.
- Databook are outdated and Kishi as human can change his mind many times and I am sure that he has changed his mind many times already.
- Totsuka blade weren't used against any tailed beast, jinchurki or Sussano not even once.
- Yata Mirror weren't shown deflecting or nullify attack as Bijuudama made of Ying Yang elements
- Kishi in Databook used many times hiperbole to give stronger meaning to certain things even if they were just hiperboles
- Itachi could use Yata Mirror against Kabuto and keep still attacking him until Kabuto run out of chakra, then Itachi catch Kabuto in Genjutsu and Kabuto release Edo Tensei.
- Nowhere it was stated that Yata Mirror and Totsuka Blade are wielder independant so this is possiblity even if nowhere is stated that Yata and Totsuka are wielder dependant
- Itachi should use Yata Mirror to block Chibaku Tensei, however from strange reason he didn't do that.

This wasn't for me but is it ok if I try and counter each one?

 

[KCMNaruto]

Well I will start by saying, I don't think Yata Mirror or Totsuka blade is depended on the users chakra and such but only how good they are with a sword and shield.

Hmm..., ok I understand your point of view and respect, but I don't agree yet...

Chibaku Tensei can't have been blocked by Yata Mirror simply because it wasn't thrown towards or trying to actually hit the Yata Mirror. The Chibaku instead fly's into the sky with a massive gravitational pull which pulls everything towards, but the user seeing as Nagato/Deva Pain didn't go flying into the Chibaku Tensei either.

Ok, I got it. However then please explain me If Itachi was kept being pulled into Chibaku Tensei, then he has to finally came in contact with this black sphere in center which is pulling everything. If Itachi know that he would come in contact with Chibaku Tensei then Why didn't he used Yata Mirror to protect himself along with Killer Bee and Naruto against Chibaku Tensei instead took risk of failing if His, Killer bee and Naruto most powerfull techniques didn't destroy black sphere then Itachi, Nagato and Killer Bee would be doomed...

Why could he take a risk If he has Yata Mirror which could nulify(according to Databook) Chibaku Tensei when he would be pulled to center and come in contact with it. Yata Mirror should nulify Chibaku Tensei so Itachi, Naruto and Killer bee would be safe why didn't he use Yata Mirror ?, please answer me...

Sasuke has a 1% chance in my opinion of getting the Yata Mirror or Totsuka blade seeing as they aren't attached to Itachi's Susano'o but instead equipped to it. The items are either lost forever since Itachi is now dead or they have been scattered somewhere else in the world, with maybe a different look or size.

Hmm... interesting point of view. However one thing doesn't lay well with it. How could Edo Itachi have Yata Mirror and Totsuka Blade if they weren't attached to Itachi's Sussano. Could it mean that they were attached or no ?

Please explain...

Also Manga has already stated and some parts are in the data book as well that Yata Mirror can block all attacks and that Totsuka blade seals anything it pierces.

Yes I read all of these statements and scans in databook, but this still doesn't deny my points supporting which my theory is based on.

The reason Kishimoto wasn't worried about having these overpowered pieces of equipment in the Manga is that Itachi had them and as he was going to willingly die anyway, the two pieces of equipment would be forever lost with him.

There must be some true into that statement, but I doubt he planned for thiese two pieces of equipment to be forever lost with Itachi...

I agree with everything you stated but there is one possibility for Sasuke to have these weapons. When Itachi was disappearing after Edo Tensei being released, He could transfer these weapons to Sasuke.

Another reasons is that Sasuke didn't use Sussano anymore since Itachi's chance to transfer these weapons before disappearing. =D

True every Jutsu has a weakness, but the thing is, Totsuka blade and Yata Mirror are both not a Jutsu.

Truth, I admit I were wrong with that last statement...

Ok, Let's see how many my reasons you disproved already:

- Every technique has weakness - countered

Reasons/point which are going to be yet disproved:

-Itachi while wielding Yata Mirror and Totsuka blade had faced only opponents weaker then him, exactly. Itachi didn't face opponent stronger then him not even once(Killer Bee, Naruto, Madara, Obito etc.) - uncountered still
- Totsuka blade weren't used against any tailed beast, jinchurki or Sussano not even once. - uncountered still
- Yata Mirror weren't shown deflecting or nullify attack as Bijuudama made of Ying Yang elements - uncountered still
- Itachi could use Yata Mirror against Kabuto and keep still attacking him until Kabuto run out of chakra, then Itachi catch Kabuto in Genjutsu and Kabuto release Edo Tensei. - uncountered still
- Nowhere it was stated that Yata Mirror and Totsuka Blade are wielder independant so this is possiblity even if nowhere is stated that Yata and Totsuka are wielder dependant - uncountered still
- Itachi should use Yata Mirror to block Chibaku Tensei, however from strange reason he didn't do that. - partailly countered but still I would like to hear better explanation if this is possible =D

Anyway Thank you very much for reply in my thread and I hope you enjoyed discussion =D

I hope you will keep debating with me until we run out of idea's

rep +

You technically cant block chibaku tensei since its not an attack at all. Its just gravity being pulled to epicenter

Also as in most anime. A lot of items are over inflated tales of epicness by people who are weak. Very nice theory though.

Interesting explanation I will rethink about it , but my reasons/points are still yet to be disproved by someone

Thank you very much for reply

EDIT: If you find proofs or statement against these reasons then I will admit defeat:

- Every technique has weakness
- Almost every technique stated to be ultimate offence or deffence were later surprassed by another technique
-Itachi while wielding Yata Mirror and Totsuka blade had faced only opponents weaker then him, exactly. Itachi didn't face opponent stronger then him not even once(Killer Bee, Naruto, Madara, Obito etc.)
- Kishi always put limit on everything so nothing is invincible even if he stated before something is invincible then he contradicts this fact with new manga fact.
- Databook are outdated and Kishi as human can change his mind many times and I am sure that he has changed his mind many times already.
- Totsuka blade weren't used against any tailed beast, jinchurki or Sussano not even once.
- Yata Mirror weren't shown deflecting or nullify attack as Bijuudama made of Ying Yang elements
- Kishi in Databook used many times hiperbole to give stronger meaning to certain things even if they were just hiperboles
- Itachi could use Yata Mirror against Kabuto and keep still attacking him until Kabuto run out of chakra, then Itachi catch Kabuto in Genjutsu and Kabuto release Edo Tensei.
- Nowhere it was stated that Yata Mirror and Totsuka Blade are wielder independant so this is possiblity even if nowhere is stated that Yata and Totsuka are wielder dependant
- Itachi should use Yata Mirror to block Chibaku Tensei, however from strange reason he didn't do that.

This wasn't for me but is it ok if I try and counter each one?

Of course, feel free to counter each one. I would really like it to see If I am right , close to be right or wrong completly =D

 

[Recable]

Every technique has weakness - Yata mirror and Totsuka blade are both not Jutsu.

Almost every technique stated to be ultimate offence or deffence were later surprassed by another technique

Itachi while wielding Yata Mirror and Totsuka blade had faced only opponents weaker then him, exactly. Itachi didn't face opponent stronger then him not even once(Killer Bee, Naruto, Madara, Obito etc.)

Kishi always put limit on everything so nothing is invincible even if he stated before something is invincible then he contradicts this fact with new manga fact - Not on everything, all the things which are overpowered in his Manga seem to have a way of either not existing anymore and so on, like with the Yata Mirror and Totsuka, they are now gone as Itachi is dead, or at least scattered.

Databook are outdated and Kishi as human can change his mind many times and I am sure that he has changed his mind many times already - They aren't out dated if it's also stated in the Manga seeing as it's a story, and the story itself wouldn't be changed.

Totsuka blade weren't used against any tailed beast, jinchurki or Sussano not even once - Just because we haven't seen it, it doesn't mean it's not true, for example, Kakashi has been said to copy over 1000 Jutsu, have we seen all of them? No we haven't but it's a fact from Kishimoto.

Yata Mirror weren't shown deflecting or nullify attack as Bijuudama made of Ying Yang elements - That doesn't matter, every Jutsu has a weakness and they are Jutsu, Yata Mirror also can (even though not seen) negate any attack by changing it's own or the incoming attacks attributes. Think of it like this, Bijuu Dama's attributes are now changed into the exact same attributes as a little pebble, this pebble won't do any harm and so on.

Kishi in Databook used many times hiperbole to give stronger meaning to certain things even if they were just hiperboles - True but most things that has been said like that are small things with no special attribute and so on, for example Yata Mirror was said to change the attributes of itself or the attacking move to defend against that attacking move, this means that it's a constant protection against all attacks while say for example, Raikiri, this attack doesn't change at all and stay's the same, someone can make up a counter for it but with the Yata Mirror you can't as it's always changing.

Itachi could use Yata Mirror against Kabuto and keep still attacking him until Kabuto run out of chakra, then Itachi catch Kabuto in Genjutsu and Kabuto release Edo Tensei - I'm pretty sure Kabuto can't run out of Chakra, he stole Jugo's ability to absorb nature energy all the time and even while moving so by that he can't run out of chakra.

Nowhere it was stated that Yata Mirror and Totsuka Blade are wielder independant so this is possiblity even if nowhere is stated that Yata and Totsuka are wielder dependant - But it's not stated that it is depended either so actually we would have more reason to not think that.

Itachi should use Yata Mirror to block Chibaku Tensei, however from strange reason he didn't do that - I have said why already, and to counter what you said after "he knew he would make contact with the Chibaku Tensei so why not use Yata Mirror to block it" well one reason could be that the rocks are in the way so that he wouldn't change anything since the rocks aren't the attack and so he may not die inside by getting crushed but he would run out of air sooner or later so he would have to destroy it instead like he did.

My answers are in bold.

 

[thegame]

I believes that Totsuka Blade and Yata Mirror work on opponent that long until opponent > wieleder, and then they simply exist but don't work at this opponent at all. Yata Mirror simply let any attack of this opponent pass through it and attack wielder without taking any damage and Totsuka Blade can't simply seal opponent and opponent can't fight back while being sealed so if he overpowers wielder then he can escape Totsuka Blade sealing.

Despite this being a good theory, and it can't be disproved, I don't see it very "typical" for naruto manga. Because Kishi is a fan of the "weaker guy beats the stronger" (either due to feelings or due to strategy). At least that is how we see it. Thus a lot of factors may play an important role, when it comes to measuring ones power.

So I am still quite unsure about your theory. How can the tool possibly measure this?
Power is not a "constant" term in Narutoverse. It mainly depends, on you who fight, and what you fight for, but there are also several other parameters. How can it be measured? IMO it's an immeasurable function, which constantly changes, and most of the outcomes are extremely random!

I partially agree with you, because as you said: "A powerful tool can also make the wielder more powerful", true. However Powerfull tool can't rise your own strength/power alone which you posses without this tool. I am sure that nor Totsuka or Yata could rise wielder's own power/strength. I could say even opposite that wielder's strength and power set limit on how much powerfull enemy can these weapons work.

Here I completely disagree, because I believe, that the tools are part of the strength of a shinobi. Jutsu are just tools too!!! Summonings are tools. Weapons are tools, etc.. This belief is probably my main issue with your theory, since it kinda make it impossible =D

In short: Yata is still able to nuliffy any attack but only to power level of wielder himself. When power level of opponent is surprassed then yata simply doesn't work. Same with Totsuka, that it can seal anything and anyone but only to power level of wielder himself. When power level of opponent is surprassed then opponent can fight back against being sealed by Totsuka blade with possibitly of escaping... or Totsuka doesn't seal at all, working as normal weapon and Yata too.

Let me state a few complex examples, that make your theory rather pale in my eyes.

Genjutsu is an attack too, but the attack itself can vary with extremes, because the genjutsu is controlled by the caster, once it enters the targets mind. Even tsukuyomi, can be a weak fairy tail told to the target, but it can also be 2 days of torture. So how can this be measured, when the power of the genjutsu, can't be clear, before it has already entered ones mind?

Kisame's shark bullet. It's an attack, that is actually weak. It has no "real" power, but if it hits a ninjutsu of stronger level, it absorbs its chakra, and becomes deadly! How do you measure this? As a strong or a weak ninjutsu? And what if - say Itachi - sent his strongest katon into it, then the power of Kisame's shark bullet would match Itachi's strongest jutsu, thus we have a new situation, where yata mirror must match his own strength. Thus your theory is incomplete, since you only thought of the situation where the opponent > wielder, but when opponent = wielder, what will then happen?

My reasons:

- Every technique has weakness
- Almost every technique stated to be ultimate offence or deffence were later surprassed by another technique
- Itachi while wielding Yata Mirror and Totsuka blade had faced only opponents weaker then him, exactly. Itachi didn't face opponent stronger then him not even once(Killer Bee, Naruto, Madara, Obito etc.)
- Absolutely nothing is invincble or indefeatable, not even Juubi(supposed God who created Shinobi Word) and was sealed by Sage of six paths.
- Itachi could use Yata Mirror against Kabuto and keep still attacking him until Kabuto run out of chakra, then Itachi catch Kabuto in Genjutsu and Kabuto release Edo Tensei.
- Nowhere it was stated that Yata Mirror and Totsuka Blade are wielder independant so this is possiblity even if nowhere is stated that Yata and Totsuka are wielder dependant
- Itachi didn't use Yata Mirror to protect himself and Naruto along with Killer Bee against being pulled into chibaku Tensei...

In general, it seems to me, like you think yata mirror would be invincible - say in the hands of an edo tensei summoned person with infinite chakra. Surely that is a terrifying situation, and it would cause quite some problems in the manga, given many of the reason you state above. However, lets revise it a little:
Yata mirror and totsuka sword aren't automatic. The wielder needs to activate them. In other words, the wielder must know, that an attack is coming! This alone is its greatest weakness!
Even if you keep it active at all time, you still need to be aware, that an attack is coming. If you don't identify the attack, how can you use the shield to defend against it? It might not matter, if you know, how the attack works, since the shield figures this out on its own, but surely you still need to identify, where the attack is, so you can target it with the shield.
An example:
Deidara's nanobugs. They are nano-sized, and thus invincible to any eye, unless emerged in liquid. Thus the jutsu is only visible (given the target has sharingan of course), when it enters ones blood. As I see it, this would render the yata mirror useless. You cannot point your shield on something, you are unaware of.

So far we didn't see any attacks towards the yata mirror, which the wielder, did not see! So what if Itachi fights Shikamaru, and he makes the perfect plan, leading his shadow towards Itachi from his blind spot, while he is occupied at another spot. Would you still think, the yata mirror protects him? I don't. And that is how, I would explain, how it works, and thus where its weakness lies.

And yes, it's a good discussion

 

[Shunsin no Shisui]

Thanks you a lot friend =D

Yes, you are basically right except main point you skipped: Totsuka Blade and Yata Mirror work on opponent if wielder>=opponent. If Opponent > wielder then opponent can break through Yata and fight back against Totsuka...

Anyway thank you very much for answer

It's cool bro. I understand what you mean. But how about we put EMS Madara against MS Itachi(both as non-edo). Obviously Madara as a non-edo is really strong but lacks his variation of Chibaku Tensei(Meteor tech that we saw with Edo Madara) since he doesn't have Rinnegan and we also don't know whether he is able to use Perfect Susano since the Susano he used against Hashirama was basically Kyubi in Susano armor. EMS Madara is also able to run out of chakra quicker since if we analyze his last fight against Hashirama, we learn that his low chakra reserve(similar to Itachi) was one of the main reasons for why he lost in the fight.

On the other hand, you have Itachi who also has maybe lower chakra reserve than Madara, but the only things that give him an advantage are clearly the Yata Mirror and Totsuka Sword. I don't think EMS Madara has any counter against them unless he can somehow perform the Meteor technique but that is unlikely since it is a Rinnegan technique(another version of Chibaku Tensei). Some say Madara is stronger than Itachi but some people also say Itachi w/ Yata shield and Totsuka sword can take on Madara because he will just get sealed.

 

[-ahhimane-]

EDIT: If you find proofs or statement against these reasons then I will admit defeat:

- Every technique has weakness
- Almost every technique stated to be ultimate offence or deffence were later surprassed by another technique
-Itachi while wielding Yata Mirror and Totsuka blade had faced only opponents weaker then him, exactly. Itachi didn't face opponent stronger then him not even once(Killer Bee, Naruto, Madara, Obito etc.)
- Kishi always put limit on everything so nothing is invincible even if he stated before something is invincible then he contradicts this fact with new manga fact.
- Databook are outdated and Kishi as human can change his mind many times and I am sure that he has changed his mind many times already.
- Totsuka blade weren't used against any tailed beast, jinchurki or Sussano not even once.
- Yata Mirror weren't shown deflecting or nullify attack as Bijuudama made of Ying Yang elements
- Kishi in Databook used many times hiperbole to give stronger meaning to certain things even if they were just hiperboles
- Itachi could use Yata Mirror against Kabuto and keep still attacking him until Kabuto run out of chakra, then Itachi catch Kabuto in Genjutsu and Kabuto release Edo Tensei.
- Nowhere it was stated that Yata Mirror and Totsuka Blade are wielder independant so this is possiblity even if nowhere is stated that Yata and Totsuka are wielder dependant
- Itachi should use Yata Mirror to block Chibaku Tensei, however from strange reason he didn't do that.

* These bolded and underlined reasons are the strongest which support my theory

Every technique has weakness

For the first one I said I agreed to that point. Yes true, Every Jutsu/Technique has a weakness. But the Totsuka Sword and the Yata Mirror are not Jutsu. They are spiritual weapons. A ninjutsu remains for a period of time. But the sword and shield can remain in the world unless they are not sealed away along with the user or the user takes them with him while getting sealed. These are weapons that can be wielded by any one. Its not stated anywhere that anyone can use the sword and shield but also it is not stated anywhere that only some special users can use them.
for example consider two swordsman fighting. One swordsman has a unique style for a K.O. But as Itachi's words says that every technique has weakness, the opponent swordsman will find out a flaw in the unique K.O. technique and will defeat him. You see, the winner found a weakness in the K.O. technique but not in the sword wielded by his opponent. So the sword of the lost swordsman still has its sharpness as it had before.

Itachi while wielding Yata Mirror and Totsuka blade had faced only opponents weaker then him, exactly. Itachi didn't face opponent stronger then him not even once(Killer Bee, Naruto, Madara, Obito etc.)

For the second even I can't give a proof because during the whole course of manga no one strong faced Itachi.
But one jutsu faced him which was stronger than him. That is "Kirin" Remember when Sasuke used it on Itachi. We know that Itachi saved himself using the Susano'o against the Kirin.

Spoiler

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But is it possible that with only Susano'o he countered that much strong lightning jutsu?
The answer would be NO. because to avoid the attack he used the Yata Mirror which is a strong and effective shield that makes the incoming attack ineffective. Also Itachi was coughing so much blood which affected the Susano'o to disperse right before the smoke got cleared. By using Yata Mirror at the last moment, he managed to avoid the fatal blow. Even a healthy Itachi couldn't counter the Kirin at the last moment because Zetsu explained that the lightning from clouds reach earth in 1/1000th of second. Also the area of impact is large, so avoiding by just stepping aside is useless.

If Yata Mirror can counter the huge strong lightning Jutsu, Kirin, then Yes, Yata Mirror is not destroyable.

And if Yata Mirror is not strong enough to counter such a lightning jutsu like Kirin, then it had to be destroyed when Itachi used it to protect himself from Kirin but Itachi used it again to avoid Orochimaru's snakes and Sasuke's explosive kunais

Now you'll say that "There is no proof for your above statement. The manga says that Itachi's Susano'o saved him" But wait, there is proof for this
- Itachi was ill and it affected his Susano'o. True.
- Sasuke was not powerful that time. True
- Kirin consists of Sasuke's chakra other than controlling. NOT AT ALL
- With such a high level jutsu like Kirin, Susano'o is enough. False

Proof That susano'o is not much strong to counter a jutsu like Kirin itself

1st Proof

Spoiler

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If you compare Itachi's condition during his battle with Sasuke and here Sasuke's battle with Danzo, Itachi's condition was more severe. Then Danzo summoned the Baku, and then easily penetrated through Sasuke's susano'o with some vacuum blade rush technique. Since no jutsu can be compared with Kirin, then this vacuum blade rush technique is nothing against Kirin. But the Vacuum jutsu penetrated through the Susano'o.

2nd Proof

Spoiler

Remember Raikage's strong attack at the Kage Summit?

Spoiler

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He used Liger/Raiger bomb on Sasuke directly. But saved by Susano'o. But still what happened

Spoiler

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A crack appeared on the Susano'o and then one rib of the Susano'o falls. Again Compare Raikage's attack and the Kirin. Kirin wins with more points. And again compare Sasuke and Itachi's conditions. Itachi was weak. If an incomparable jutsu like Liger Bomb can break a rib of susano'o of a healthy Sasuke then what damage Itachi might have faced against Kirin with just his Susano'o.

3rd Proof

Spoiler

During Sasuke vs Mizukage

Spoiler

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Mizukage used acid mist jutsu that even melted the Susano'o protecting Sasuke. Again Susano'o proved to be not much powerful against these jutsus.

4th Proof

Spoiler

Even Madara's Susano'o melted who was incomparably healthy compared to Itachi

Spoiler

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5th Proof

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Raikage punched through Madara's Susano'o and broke one of Susano'o's rib

6th Proof

Spoiler

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Even Tsunade broke Susano'o's sword with single hand

With So Many proofs, it proves that Itachi's cannot counter Kirin with just his Susano'o.
And hence he used Yata Mirror against Kirin.

Now what you said Totsuka Blade and Yata Mirror work on opponent if wielder>=opponent. If Opponent > wielder then opponent can break through Yata and fight back against Totsuka...

So, Kirin Greater than Susano'o
Wielder of Yata Mirror = Itachi's Susano'o
Wielder of Susano'o = Itachi
Susano'o survival depends upon Itachi
SO Kirin Greater than Itachi
But still Yata Mirror proved greater than Kirin.

So your point proved to be WRONG i.e Opponent >Wielder, then opponent can break through Yata Mirror.
Since opponent cannot break through the Yata Mirror he won't be able to attack the wielder.
For Totsuka sword, as the databook explains that it can cut through any enemy, that means it can even cut through swords including Orochimaru's Kusanagi Sword will be cut down by Totsuka. And this proves the reason why Orochimaru was searching for Totsuka Sword from so long time. Because that is the ultimate weapon.
Agreed?

Itachi could use Yata Mirror against Kabuto and keep still attacking him until Kabuto run out of chakra, then Itachi catch Kabuto in Genjutsu and Kabuto release Edo Tensei.

Itachi was planning to capture Kabuto alive but by defeating him. Fighting together with Sasuke was easy and little time consuming. And the same way it happened in manga because Itachi's motto was not to play around with the enemy until he runs out of chakra instead he wanted to quickly capture Kabuto so that he can release the Edo Tensei Jutsu as well as the Edo Tensei ninja fighting on the battlefields. Increasing the time to capture Kabuto would only cause more deaths on the sides of Shinobi Alliance by the hands of Edo Tensei shinobis. Besides putting Kabuto under his Tsukuyomi/Genjutsu, Itachi's other aim was to capture Kabuto quickly.
Apart from that, using Yata Mirror to defend against Kabuto's attacks wasn't my planning. Kishi planned it that way.

Nowhere it was stated that Yata Mirror and Totsuka Blade are wielder independant so this is possiblity even if nowhere is stated that Yata and Totsuka are wielder dependant

If you mean that without a wielder, those two spiritual weapons does not exist, then NO that's no possible. Because Itachi never had those two weapons from the start. He acquired it because Orochimaru was after them. So how Itachi found them or in what condition they were found is still a secret. But they existed even before Itachi found them when there were no wielder for them present. These weapons do need a wielder otherwise they are useless.

Itachi should use Yata Mirror to block Chibaku Tensei, however from strange reason he didn't do that

Itachi was calm minded and understood what could possibly stop the Chibaku Tensei by analysing the Jutsu's WEAK POINT.(your 1st point is valid here) But the weak point cannot be attacked using Yata Mirror in this case.
The Chibaku Tensei is based on gravitational pull. So it pulls everything towards it and creates a huge sphere.
And according to Yata Mirror's abilities, it should not be used against this jutsu because, Yata Mirror defends against any attack thrown at the wielder and not because the wielder is getting pulled by the jutsu.

These bolded and underlined reasons are the strongest which support my theory

Since those bolded and underlined reasons have been proven wrong with strong proof, hence your theory falls apart.

 

[thegame]

But one jutsu faced him which was stronger than him. That is "Kirin" Remember when Sasuke used it on Itachi. We know that Itachi saved himself using the Susano'o against the Kirin.

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

But is it possible that with only Susano'o he countered that much strong lightning jutsu?
The answer would be NO. because to avoid the attack he used the Yata Mirror which is a strong and effective shield that makes the incoming attack ineffective. Also Itachi was coughing so much blood which affected the Susano'o to disperse right before the smoke got cleared. By using Yata Mirror at the last moment, he managed to avoid the fatal blow. Even a healthy Itachi couldn't counter the Kirin at the last moment because Zetsu explained that the lightning from clouds reach earth in 1/1000th of second. Also the area of impact is large, so avoiding by just stepping aside is useless.

Didn't quote it all, but most of your - quite long comment - is utterly wrong/against manga proof. Mainly you do not understand, what a lightning strike does, nor how it works. Lets start with Kirin:
Kirin is powerful, because it strikes as fast as you say. In other words, it cannot be dodged! This is what makes it a terrifying jutsu!! However, if one have a little knowledge about a lightning, many counters can easily be created! A lightning is not "powerful" in the terms of a "blow" or an "explosion". Its effects are very different, and thus there are other ways of "defending" against it. Let me explain:

If you notice how most lightning jutsu in the manga works, they are either used for piercing, as a protecting barrier, or to generate speed, this is done by combining it with something else, a lightning is electricity, and electricity alone does not pierce!!!

If lightning hit Susanoo, electricity will search for the shortest route to the earth. Now that you provided the scan yourself, it's quite easy to see, that the lightning most likely went through the arms of Susanoo and discharged into the ground!

So all your proofs on that part are invalid, since it's all about understanding, what and how a lightning strike works!

 

[KCMNaruto]

Every technique has weakness - Yata mirror and Totsuka blade are both not Jutsu.

Agree, you have point there

Almost every technique stated to be ultimate offence or deffence were later surprassed by another technique

- so still not countered I see

Itachi while wielding Yata Mirror and Totsuka blade had faced only opponents weaker then him, exactly. Itachi didn't face opponent stronger then him not even once(Killer Bee, Naruto, Madara, Obito etc.)

- still not countered again

Kishi always put limit on everything so nothing is invincible even if he stated before something is invincible then he contradicts this fact with new manga fact - Not on everything, all the things which are overpowered in his Manga seem to have a way of either not existing anymore and so on, like with the Yata Mirror and Totsuka, they are now gone as Itachi is dead, or at least scattered.

You have good point here so I will agree for time being=D

Databook are outdated and Kishi as human can change his mind many times and I am sure that he has changed his mind many times already - They aren't out dated if it's also stated in the Manga seeing as it's a story, and the story itself wouldn't be changed.

Again you are probably right but we will see... For now let's say I agree

Totsuka blade weren't used against any tailed beast, jinchurki or Sussano not even once - Just because we haven't seen it, it doesn't mean it's not true, for example, Kakashi has been said to copy over 1000 Jutsu, have we seen all of them? No we haven't but it's a fact from Kishimoto.

I partially agree, because what kishi states is true but them I can say that Yata and Totsuka are featless againt Jinchurki, or tailed beast or even other Sussano...

Yata Mirror weren't shown deflecting or nullify attack as Bijuudama made of Ying Yang elements - That doesn't matter, every Jutsu has a weakness and they are Jutsu, Yata Mirror also can (even though not seen) negate any attack by changing it's own or the incoming attacks attributes. Think of it like this, Bijuu Dama's attributes are now changed into the exact same attributes as a little pebble, this pebble won't do any harm and so on.

Ok, nice point of view you brough again =D, well I will agree for time being until we see more feats from these weapons or what Databook IV has to say on this topic

Kishi in Databook used many times hiperbole to give stronger meaning to certain things even if they were just hiperboles - True but most things that has been said like that are small things with no special attribute and so on, for example Yata Mirror was said to change the attributes of itself or the attacking move to defend against that attacking move, this means that it's a constant protection against all attacks while say for example, Raikiri, this attack doesn't change at all and stay's the same, someone can make up a counter for it but with the Yata Mirror you can't as it's always changing.

Ok, I agree with that as well

Itachi could use Yata Mirror against Kabuto and keep still attacking him until Kabuto run out of chakra, then Itachi catch Kabuto in Genjutsu and Kabuto release Edo Tensei - I'm pretty sure Kabuto can't run out of Chakra, he stole Jugo's ability to absorb nature energy all the time and even while moving so by that he can't run out of chakra.

Hmm..., nice explanation once again, I will agree with you on this as well.

Nowhere it was stated that Yata Mirror and Totsuka Blade are wielder independant so this is possiblity even if nowhere is stated that Yata and Totsuka are wielder dependant - But it's not stated that it is depended either so actually we would have more reason to not think that.

Well, this is simply still open for discussion because you can disprove that and I can't prove it either =D

Itachi should use Yata Mirror to block Chibaku Tensei, however from strange reason he didn't do that - I have said why already, and to counter what you said after "he knew he would make contact with the Chibaku Tensei so why not use Yata Mirror to block it" well one reason could be that the rocks are in the way so that he wouldn't change anything since the rocks aren't the attack and so he may not die inside by getting crushed but he would run out of air sooner or later so he would have to destroy it instead like he did.

Well nice explanation once again, however this time I disagree.

#1th flying rocks at you could be considered as attacks...
#2th pulling force should be considered by Yata Mirror as attack, otherwiese Bansho Tenin > Yata Mirror
#3th Yata Mirror couldn't let rocks being pulled together so Itachi wouldn't run out of air...

My answers are in bold.

I answered to all you answeres =D

This was great and nice debate

Despite this being a good theory, and it can't be disproved, I don't see it very "typical" for naruto manga. Because Kishi is a fan of the "weaker guy beats the stronger" (either due to feelings or due to strategy). At least that is how we see it. Thus a lot of factors may play an important role, when it comes to measuring ones power.

Well, whatever it is typical for Naruto manga or no I could argue because Kishi changes his mind very often.

However I agree with you statement about meassuring power for now =D

So I am still quite unsure about your theory. How can the tool possibly measure this?
Power is not a "constant" term in Narutoverse. It mainly depends, on you who fight, and what you fight for, but there are also several other parameters. How can it be measured? IMO it's an immeasurable function, which constantly changes, and most of the outcomes are extremely random!

I agree with the most part of your reply, however all these parameters could be summarized or something, from which you can take out result, which could be common unit. Number of points in this unit could be used to meassure each character power/strength and compare them to each other, at least I think that would work like that.

Not weapons themselves know about each character strength so you could use them against. However Kishi in indirectly way would show them being ineffective meaning that opponent > wielder for us readers to know.

Although I agree that: "t's an immeasurable function, which constantly changes, and most of the outcomes are extremely random!", then simply points of these unit would be counted constant in real time, so it could changes as just one parameter changes.

Here I completely disagree, because I believe, that the tools are part of the strength of a shinobi. Jutsu are just tools too!!! Summonings are tools. Weapons are tools, etc.. This belief is probably my main issue with your theory, since it kinda make it impossible =D

Yeah this is probably one of the greatest reason why you can't agree with my theory =D. I would agree almost completly with you besides that I believe that Totsuka Blade and Yata Mirror could simply meassure wielder's power so they could know whenever they could unable their special attributes, or simply be ineffective.

Someone has said once that "weapon is only that powerfull as it's weilder", I think this is true...=D

Let me state a few complex examples, that make your theory rather pale in my eyes.

Genjutsu is an attack too, but the attack itself can vary with extremes, because the genjutsu is controlled by the caster, once it enters the targets mind. Even tsukuyomi, can be a weak fairy tail told to the target, but it can also be 2 days of torture. So how can this be measured, when the power of the genjutsu, can't be clear, before it has already entered ones mind?

Yeah you brought very good point, but I just basically focused on Ninjutsu, Taijutsu where I stated about meassure of power. I admit that I didn't think about meassure power of genjutsu not even once. You caught me there, because my theory simply doesn't cover this point.

Kisame's shark bullet. It's an attack, that is actually weak. It has no "real" power, but if it hits a ninjutsu of stronger level, it absorbs its chakra, and becomes deadly! How do you measure this? As a strong or a weak ninjutsu? And what if - say Itachi - sent his strongest katon into it, then the power of Kisame's shark bullet would match Itachi's strongest jutsu, thus we have a new situation, where yata mirror must match his own strength. Thus your theory is incomplete, since you only thought of the situation where the opponent > wielder, but when opponent = wielder, what will then happen?

Well again you suprised me with very good example, however this time I can answer you.

#1th As you said Kisame's shark bullet is weak jutsu but it has special attribute which allows it to absorb chakra becoming stronger, true. However Yata Mirror could only react to power's of attack with mere contact. It doesn't matter If Kisame's shark bullet was increasing in strength while traveling all it's way to Yata, only power/strength of it while getting first contact matter and count for these weapons to know if this attack is in capability of wielder strength or no. If yes, they work else they don't work

#2th Well, I was sure that I mentioned that Wielder >=Opponent, These weapons work else they don't work only just exist...

Do you get my point now ?

In general, it seems to me, like you think yata mirror would be invincible - say in the hands of an edo tensei summoned person with infinite chakra. Surely that is a terrifying situation, and it would cause quite some problems in the manga, given many of the reason you state above.

LOL, It would Appocalypse and Kishi would have to put some limit on Yata and Totsuka asap to no finish his manga too soon =D

And exactly you caught my point very well in post above

However, lets revise it a little:
Yata mirror and totsuka sword aren't automatic. The wielder needs to activate them. In other words, the wielder must know, that an attack is coming! This alone is its greatest weakness!
Even if you keep it active at all time, you still need to be aware, that an attack is coming. If you don't identify the attack, how can you use the shield to defend against it? It might not matter, if you know, how the attack works, since the shield figures this out on its own, but surely you still need to identify, where the attack is, so you can target it with the shield.
An example:
Deidara's nanobugs. They are nano-sized, and thus invincible to any eye, unless emerged in liquid. Thus the jutsu is only visible (given the target has sharingan of course), when it enters ones blood. As I see it, this would render the yata mirror useless. You cannot point your shield on something, you are unaware of.

So far we didn't see any attacks towards the yata mirror, which the wielder, did not see! So what if Itachi fights Shikamaru, and he makes the perfect plan, leading his shadow towards Itachi from his blind spot, while he is occupied at another spot. Would you still think, the yata mirror protects him? I don't. And that is how, I would explain, how it works, and thus where its weakness lies.

Very good and detailed explanation I really enjoyed that man . I agree completly with you stated but I still believe that my theory would work as well and is correct =D

And yes, it's a good discussion

Well, it was nice and interesting discussion indeed, you are very good debater I give you that

It's cool bro. I understand what you mean. But how about we put EMS Madara against MS Itachi(both as non-edo). Obviously Madara as a non-edo is really strong but lacks his variation of Chibaku Tensei(Meteor tech that we saw with Edo Madara) since he doesn't have Rinnegan and we also don't know whether he is able to use Perfect Susano since the Susano he used against Hashirama was basically Kyubi in Susano armor. EMS Madara is also able to run out of chakra quicker since if we analyze his last fight against Hashirama, we learn that his low chakra reserve(similar to Itachi) was one of the main reasons for why he lost in the fight.

Well, I agree with everything you stated expect:

#1th - Madara didn't have Perfect Sussano back then.... It is false claim, because Madara made Kyuubi cloaked by Perfect Sussano stabilized form.

look at this:

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then at this:

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You see, on both pictures above Sussano cloaked Kyuubi and Perfect Sussano have same armor made of something like papers. However the most noticable thing for first look is they both have long nose, which is trademark of Madara's perfect Sussano =D

#2th I agree that EMS Madara has much less chakra then Edo Madara(who's chakra refill to full in real time after using any technique). However this statement: "we learn that his low chakra reserve(similar to Itachi" is wrong. I hope you doesn't mean it literaly, because Madara was able to pull huge and powerfull fire release techniques on wide scale, he was able to summon Kyuubi which has to cost some significant amount of chakra.

Besides Madara was able to fight against Hashirama through entire day and night, that mean his chakra amount is not small. Probably same as Sasuke's and Itachi's combined...

On the other hand, you have Itachi who also has maybe lower chakra reserve than Madara, but the only things that give him an advantage are clearly the Yata Mirror and Totsuka Sword. I don't think EMS Madara has any counter against them unless he can somehow perform the Meteor technique but that is unlikely since it is a Rinnegan technique(another version of Chibaku Tensei). Some say Madara is stronger than Itachi but some people also say Itachi w/ Yata shield and Totsuka sword can take on Madara because he will just get sealed.

I agree complelty unless Madara has some hidden knowledge about Yata Mirror and Totsuka blade he will be sealed by Totsuka blade...

But maybe Perfect Sussano could be resistant to Yata and Totsuka...

 

[KCMNaruto]

For the first one I said I agreed to that point. Yes true, Every Jutsu/Technique has a weakness. But the Totsuka Sword and the Yata Mirror are not Jutsu. They are spiritual weapons. A ninjutsu remains for a period of time. But the sword and shield can remain in the world unless they are not sealed away along with the user or the user takes them with him while getting sealed. These are weapons that can be wielded by any one. Its not stated anywhere that anyone can use the sword and shield but also it is not stated anywhere that only some special users can use them.

I completly agree with this =D

for example consider two swordsman fighting. One swordsman has a unique style for a K.O. But as Itachi's words says that every technique has weakness, the opponent swordsman will find out a flaw in the unique K.O. technique and will defeat him. You see, the winner found a weakness in the K.O. technique but not in the sword wielded by his opponent. So the sword of the lost swordsman still has its sharpness as it had before.

Great example and very detailed explanation I completly agree once again =D

For the second even I can't give a proof because during the whole course of manga no one strong faced Itachi.
But one jutsu faced him which was stronger than him. That is "Kirin" Remember when Sasuke used it on Itachi. We know that Itachi saved himself using the Susano'o against the Kirin.

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But is it possible that with only Susano'o he countered that much strong lightning jutsu?

Well Until now I completly agree with little doubt about Kirin power being > Itachi's capability

The answer would be NO. because to avoid the attack he used the Yata Mirror which is a strong and effective shield that makes the incoming attack ineffective. Also Itachi was coughing so much blood which affected the Susano'o to disperse right before the smoke got cleared. By using Yata Mirror at the last moment, he managed to avoid the fatal blow. Even a healthy Itachi couldn't counter the Kirin at the last moment because Zetsu explained that the lightning from clouds reach earth in 1/1000th of second. Also the area of impact is large, so avoiding by just stepping aside is useless.

Well, Now I completly disagree with you because:

#1th If Itachi used Yata Mirror then why all mountain was destroyed and exploded:

here:

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and here:

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According to Databook, Yata mirror could reflect or at least nulify completly Kirin, but instead mountain was destroyed and in addition Itachi was found laying on ground and coughing blood.

Even If this was true somehow then that could only proves my theory being correct, because Kirin > Itachi's power of techniques which could lead to my point opponent > wielder being right, because Yata didn't work at all...

However I complelty agree with Kirin being too fast and it's impact covering huge area

Besides If Itachi used Yata even at least moment he couldn't be damaged or laying down after attack because Yata could nulify Kirin...

If Yata Mirror can counter the huge strong lightning Jutsu, Kirin, then Yes, Yata Mirror is not destroyable.

No, because Itachi was laying down on ground after attack which could mean Yata failed If even was used. Why Itachi has Yata again because these weapons are self-repairing/spawning after short specific time or along with will of wielder...

And if Yata Mirror is not strong enough to counter such a lightning jutsu like Kirin, then it had to be destroyed when Itachi used it to protect himself from Kirin but Itachi used it again to avoid Orochimaru's snakes and Sasuke's explosive kunais

very good example but my counter to this is that Yata Mirror could be simply self-regenerating/repairing/spawning weapon as well as Totsuka Blade that why They appeared again, or wielder with his strong will can summon these weapons repaired again.

Now you'll say that "There is no proof for your above statement. The manga says that Itachi's Susano'o saved him" But wait, there is proof for this
- Itachi was ill and it affected his Susano'o. True.
- Sasuke was not powerful that time. True
- Kirin consists of Sasuke's chakra other than controlling. NOT AT ALL
- With such a high level jutsu like Kirin, Susano'o is enough. False

Proof That susano'o is not much strong to counter a jutsu like Kirin itself

1st Proof

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If you compare Itachi's condition during his battle with Sasuke and here Sasuke's battle with Danzo, Itachi's condition was more severe. Then Danzo summoned the Baku, and then easily penetrated through Sasuke's susano'o with some vacuum blade rush technique. Since no jutsu can be compared with Kirin, then this vacuum blade rush technique is nothing against Kirin. But the Vacuum jutsu penetrated through the Susano'o.

2nd Proof

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Remember Raikage's strong attack at the Kage Summit?

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He used Liger/Raiger bomb on Sasuke directly. But saved by Susano'o. But still what happened

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A crack appeared on the Susano'o and then one rib of the Susano'o falls. Again Compare Raikage's attack and the Kirin. Kirin wins with more points. And again compare Sasuke and Itachi's conditions. Itachi was weak. If an incomparable jutsu like Liger Bomb can break a rib of susano'o of a healthy Sasuke then what damage Itachi might have faced against Kirin with just his Susano'o.

3rd Proof

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During Sasuke vs Mizukage

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Mizukage used acid mist jutsu that even melted the Susano'o protecting Sasuke. Again Susano'o proved to be not much powerful against these jutsus.

4th Proof

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Even Madara's Susano'o melted who was incomparably healthy compared to Itachi

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5th Proof

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Raikage punched through Madara's Susano'o and broke one of Susano'o's rib

6th Proof

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Even Tsunade broke Susano'o's sword with single hand

With So Many proofs, it proves that Itachi's cannot counter Kirin with just his Susano'o.
And hence he used Yata Mirror against Kirin.

Ok, I got you point of view and understand very well. Let's say I agree with that because you used manga panels to support your claims. However it could only prove that Yata Mirror was destroyed and has to be summoned again by Itachi... In short Yata failed to nulify or deflect Kirin, because Kirin's power > Itachi's techniques/power which further proves my point: Opponent > wielder then Totsuka and Yata don't work on enemy right if we consider what you just said as true.

Now what you said Totsuka Blade and Yata Mirror work on opponent if wielder>=opponent. If Opponent > wielder then opponent can break through Yata and fight back against Totsuka...

So, Kirin Greater than Susano'o
Wielder of Yata Mirror = Itachi's Susano'o
Wielder of Susano'o = Itachi
Susano'o survival depends upon Itachi
SO Kirin Greater than Itachi
But still Yata Mirror proved greater than Kirin.

I countered it's above So I disagree, because this statement: "Yata Mirror proved greater than Kirin" is not true. Yata Mirror failed in deflecting or nulify Kirin, probably was destroyed or simply didn't work, so Itachi's complete Sussano has to tank that attack and that why Itachi was laying on ground after explosion of Kirin.

So your point proved to be WRONG i.e Opponent >Wielder, then opponent can break through Yata Mirror.
Since opponent cannot break through the Yata Mirror he won't be able to attack the wielder.

I countered this argument above few times already.

For Totsuka sword, as the databook explains that it can cut through any enemy, that means it can even cut through swords including Orochimaru's Kusanagi Sword will be cut down by Totsuka. And this proves the reason why Orochimaru was searching for Totsuka Sword from so long time. Because that is the ultimate weapon.

Agreed?

Well, I agree about Totsuka Blade, because this only proves my point further. Itachi wielding Totsuka blade didn't use it against opponent stronger then Itachi himself, which proves my Opponent > wielder theory

However I completly disagree about Yata Mirror, because I countered your arguments above.

Itachi was planning to capture Kabuto alive but by defeating him. Fighting together with Sasuke was easy and little time consuming. And the same way it happened in manga because Itachi's motto was not to play around with the enemy until he runs out of chakra instead he wanted to quickly capture Kabuto so that he can release the Edo Tensei Jutsu as well as the Edo Tensei ninja fighting on the battlefields. Increasing the time to capture Kabuto would only cause more deaths on the sides of Shinobi Alliance by the hands of Edo Tensei shinobis. Besides putting Kabuto under his Tsukuyomi/Genjutsu, Itachi's other aim was to capture Kabuto quickly.
Apart from that, using Yata Mirror to defend against Kabuto's attacks wasn't my planning. Kishi planned it that way.

Well, you used very nice and good explanation so I agree with you on this, but then in the end you said that it wasn't your fault that Itachi didn't use Yata Mirror to defend against Kabuto throwing all burden at Kishi, that only proves me that you aren't sure why Itachi didn't use Yata Mirror...

If you mean that without a wielder, those two spiritual weapons does not exist, then NO that's no possible. Because Itachi never had those two weapons from the start. He acquired it because Orochimaru was after them. So how Itachi found them or in what condition they were found is still a secret. But they existed even before Itachi found them when there were no wielder for them present. These weapons do need a wielder otherwise they are useless.

No, I didn't stated or mentioned something like that, you just misunderstood mine post =D

Itachi was calm minded and understood what could possibly stop the Chibaku Tensei by analysing the Jutsu's WEAK POINT.(your 1st point is valid here) But the weak point cannot be attacked using Yata Mirror in this case.
The Chibaku Tensei is based on gravitational pull. So it pulls everything towards it and creates a huge sphere.
And according to Yata Mirror's abilities, it should not be used against this jutsu because, Yata Mirror defends against any attack thrown at the wielder and not because the wielder is getting pulled by the jutsu.

I agree completly and see you logic here, but then shouldn't Yata Mirror consider pulling force as attack ?, If not then Bansho Tenin > Yata Mirror =D

Since those bolded and underlined reasons have been proven wrong with strong proof, hence your theory falls apart.

No, not all of them. My theory based on opponent and wielder strength relations form which depend If Totsuka blade and Yata Mirror work or no is still uncountered and could be correct

It was very good and nice debate with you. =D

Although you proved many my points being wrong, you still didn't destroyed my theory

I won't give up that easily

Didn't quote it all, but most of your - quite long comment - is utterly wrong/against manga proof. Mainly you do not understand, what a lightning strike does, nor how it works. Lets start with Kirin:
Kirin is powerful, because it strikes as fast as you say. In other words, it cannot be dodged! This is what makes it a terrifying jutsu!! However, if one have a little knowledge about a lightning, many counters can easily be created! A lightning is not "powerful" in the terms of a "blow" or an "explosion". Its effects are very different, and thus there are other ways of "defending" against it. Let me explain:

If you notice how most lightning jutsu in the manga works, they are either used for piercing, as a protecting barrier, or to generate speed, this is done by combining it with something else, a lightning is electricity, and electricity alone does not pierce!!!

If lightning hit Susanoo, electricity will search for the shortest route to the earth. Now that you provided the scan yourself, it's quite easy to see, that the lightning most likely went through the arms of Susanoo and discharged into the ground!

So all your proofs on that part are invalid, since it's all about understanding, what and how a lightning strike works!

^^This I agree with too

 

[thegame]

After reading this on weapon techniques:

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, you might understand, why I see a weapon as part of users total power, since for instance puppets are just a weapon, but the user develops certain techniques to use his puppets. So how would you classify Sasori? =D

Also without the weapon, surely, you would have to measure any weapon specialist as being weaker, than when he has his weapon. What can Temari do without her fan? What can aburame clan do without their bugs (they too are labeled a tool), and of course TenTen =D and these are just a few examples. So either tot/yata are the only exception in measuring wielders own power, but it still has to measure the enemies power including their weapons, and skills with it

 

[-ahhimane-]

Didn't quote it all, but most of your - quite long comment - is utterly wrong/against manga proof. Mainly you do not understand, what a lightning strike does, nor how it works. Lets start with Kirin:
Kirin is powerful, because it strikes as fast as you say. In other words, it cannot be dodged! This is what makes it a terrifying jutsu!! However, if one have a little knowledge about a lightning, many counters can easily be created! A lightning is not "powerful" in the terms of a "blow" or an "explosion". Its effects are very different, and thus there are other ways of "defending" against it. Let me explain:

If you notice how most lightning jutsu in the manga works, they are either used for piercing, as a protecting barrier, or to generate speed, this is done by combining it with something else, a lightning is electricity, and electricity alone does not pierce!!!

If lightning hit Susanoo, electricity will search for the shortest route to the earth. Now that you provided the scan yourself, it's quite easy to see, that the lightning most likely went through the arms of Susanoo and discharged into the ground!

So all your proofs on that part are invalid, since it's all about understanding, what and how a lightning strike works!

The bold part:
I agree that electricity alone cannot be pierce through any opponent, otherwise it will just get discharged by finding some means. To increase the attack, one must use speed and control over the electricity/lightning. That's what Sasuke did here.

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SASUKE TAMED/CONTROLLED THE KIRIN AND DIRECTED TOWATDS ITACHI

 

[Fluffyman]

Why are you guys making a big deal of it?

Yata = Blocks any attack. (A guy here once made a thread showing with manga pic´s that the Yata Mirror can increase its size and provide all around protection)
Totsuka = Seals everything it hits.

Itachi saying that every technique has a weakness is true but Yata and Totsuka are legendary items, not technique´s.


These items dont have a weakness, just a limit =
Yata = Itachi cant maintain it forever because Susano´o is very chakra draining. And he lacks the EMS, he would get blind after a while.
Totsuka = Sealing anything it touches is only 50% of the job. The target first needs to be hit at all, people like Obito and Minato will be impossible to hit unless they are caught off guard. And people like Naruto, A or Gai in Gates will be very difficult to hit.

 

[thegame]

The bold part:
I agree that electricity alone cannot be pierce through any opponent, otherwise it will just get discharged by finding some means. To increase the attack, one must use speed and control over the electricity/lightning. That's what Sasuke did here.

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SASUKE TAMED/CONTROLLED THE KIRIN AND DIRECTED TOWATDS ITACHI

And Itachi used Susanoo to discharge the lightning into the ground beside him. Susanoo is not in direct contact with users body, so no electricity could be lead into Itachi. The lightning cannot strike more targets on its way to the ground, unless they aren't in contact with the ground. Thus it only stroke Susanoo, and didn't harm Itachi.