[Discussion] Women on the front lines in war

[Mattek2008]

It's true. Also I don't think people can comprehend how heavy ammunition is.
Plus all the other stuff you have to pack around. It's insane.
Unless the woman is the Hulk it's not easy. They should stick to jobs that are better suited for them. Like a medic or a cook.

I agree, but if they really want to become a soldier, i think they should be able to make that choice

 

[YokoKurama]

I agree, but if they really want to become a soldier, i think they should be able to make that choice

True but some of them truly don't understand what it takes.

 

[KingHashirama]

I would like to remind people this isn't simply a modern topic, but topic from ages back. And the results of women getting captured are still similar to this:

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[YellowFang]

Women can join military but not any kind of special services groups or elite forces...
They are physically weaker and should not try to do things that only men can do under the banner of 'gender equality'...

There are somethings that are only subjected to either men or women and neither can do it alternatively...

 

[Mattek2008]

Women can join military but not any kind of special services groups or elite forces...
They are physically weaker and should not try to do things that only men can do under the banner of 'gender equality'...

There are somethings that are only subjected to either men or women and neither can do it alternatively...

Good point.

 

[REX Lex]

I don't think they should be recruited cos somebody simply has oo stay behind otherwise it would get bad
they are weaker and more emotional then men in general which can get in the way

 

[Ldude]

Obviously, they should have the option.

 

[KingHashirama]

Obviously, they should have the option.

hmm option is there.. however, problem is for some reason women affect the battlefield for men differently. Alot of more worries.

 

[Jin Hayami]

Okay I'm in the military let me explain the problems to you people. It's kinda long so here's a link to a cartoon that covers all the main points and might be slightly more interesting to you.

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1. Military does not leave someone behind if they get hit. The 4th line of the Warrior Ethos states "I will never leave a fallen comrade." Dead or alive. We bring our soldiers home. Not a ****ing option.

2. We set these standards for a reason. Average man weighs about 180. Plus thirty pound kit. Plus weapon. Plus whatever the **** he has attached to his kit. Plus any sensitive items that we have to bring back like NVG's, radios, jammers, etc. (God forbid it be the mortar monkey gets hit) Now imagine carrying that 180 pound man with 45 pounds of equipment on him that you can't leave behind. For several miles. And that's assuming that it is a normal sized man. I myself weigh 220. So that's 260+ in full kit. And they want to lower the standards so women can do this. The standards aren't sexist. If a man fails his peers and superiors haze the shit out of him until he either washes out or shapes the **** up. Why should women get to do less than men? THAT is the definition of sexist right there.

3. Logistics. Women and men are not allowed to share rooms or latrines. That means a minority of women that could pass the same standards as men would have to be given their own tent and latrine. A full tent and latrine that could be used for many more soldiers. Then if there aren't enough female soldiers because they are so outnumbered by men that haven't had *** in months they have to be escorted by their male peers all over the damn place so they don't get harassed by some sun stroked retard.

4. Unit Cohesion. What happens when you have a bunch of athletic 20 something's working together? They end up sleeping together. Happens in every unit with females. Now tell me what happens when Pvt Jones finds out Pvt Snuffy has been banging his girlfriend? Pvt Jones and Pvt Snuffy are unable to work together from that point on. That leaves the unit with the option of getting rid of one or the other. Seriously we have enough of this issue just with guys nailing each others wives. The infantry don't need even more opportunities to "keep it in the family." Oh and of course the issue I've personally had to deal with on my first deployment. When one of my female soldiers caught something from one male and proceeded to spread it to four others in the same company. We were forced to send her home from deployment. Now is fraternization allowed down range? No. Does it happen ALL THE TIME. Yes. Which leads us to issue number 5.

5. Pregnancy. When a female becomes pregnant no matter what unit she is in she is almost always sent to HQ and takes up a paperwork position until she has her kid and comes off of her pregnancy profile. In an infantry unit a member being sent to headquarters because she couldn't use proper protection and leaving a hole in that squad is a big ****ing issue. This forces the males to pick up the slack caused by her absence.
*Side note-For those who don't know a profile means you're broke. Profiles are looked down upon as the worst form of scum in the military simply because 70-80% of them are just faking to get out of morning PT. They call that malingering and nobody likes working with a fat, lazy, out of shape, piece of shit, that doesn't put in as much work as everyone else.

6. There is no longer such thing as "Front lines." This isn't World War II. You are either outside the wire or not. This means that plenty of non infantry soldiers end up in combat. Guess what? That's fine. Females have no problem being productive in supply convoys, medical roles, etc. Just not extended foot patrols which is what the infantry does. It's literally a question of how much time you spend off the FOB on whether or not you'll get blown up or shot at. Even then there are attacks on FOBs and there are always mortars and rockets coming in to piss you off at night.

7. The argument of sexism is irrelevant. In the military the number one priority is the mission. Anything that gets in the way of the accomplishment of that mission is a ****ing problem. In combat. Problems kill. The military doesn't give two shits if you feel left out. At least you are alive and not getting someone killed.

Seriously. This should be a moot point. No women in male infantry units. I doubt anyone would give a shit if they made all female infantry units because it would be individuals of the same physical ability and logistical needs. That is a solution. Integrating them into male infantry units is not. If you disagree with anything I have said you are retarded and should stay the **** away from the military and anything closely resembling a voting booth.

 

[YokoKurama]

Nicely put Jin. Both my parents served so everything you said made perfect sense to me.

 

[KingHashirama]

@Jin, nicely put mate.

But about the "frontline" thing.. hmm actually there still exists a front line. Front line is a reference to those who are sent first. Though however, this is not a wide scenario, considering the fact we are not even in actual Wars.

We have simply been in military conflicts for the past decades. However, my reference is to an actual war. For example, Vietnam (the last actual "war" we had).

And the problem with "separate women's unit" is again always challenged by the so called "equalists". Furthermore, they will not go over the men in physical combat roles, so we go back to square one. With the whole argument about "Why can't women be in the men's roles". X_X.

 

[Xlad]

Spoiler

Spoiler

Okay I'm in the military let me explain the problems to you people. It's kinda long so here's a link to a cartoon that covers all the main points and might be slightly more interesting to you.

You must be registered for see links

1. Military does not leave someone behind if they get hit. The 4th line of the Warrior Ethos states "I will never leave a fallen comrade." Dead or alive. We bring our soldiers home. Not a ****ing option.

2. We set these standards for a reason. Average man weighs about 180. Plus thirty pound kit. Plus weapon. Plus whatever the **** he has attached to his kit. Plus any sensitive items that we have to bring back like NVG's, radios, jammers, etc. (God forbid it be the mortar monkey gets hit) Now imagine carrying that 180 pound man with 45 pounds of equipment on him that you can't leave behind. For several miles. And that's assuming that it is a normal sized man. I myself weigh 220. So that's 260+ in full kit. And they want to lower the standards so women can do this. The standards aren't sexist. If a man fails his peers and superiors haze the shit out of him until he either washes out or shapes the **** up. Why should women get to do less than men? THAT is the definition of sexist right there.

3. Logistics. Women and men are not allowed to share rooms or latrines. That means a minority of women that could pass the same standards as men would have to be given their own tent and latrine. A full tent and latrine that could be used for many more soldiers. Then if there aren't enough female soldiers because they are so outnumbered by men that haven't had *** in months they have to be escorted by their male peers all over the damn place so they don't get harassed by some sun stroked retard.

4. Unit Cohesion. What happens when you have a bunch of athletic 20 something's working together? They end up sleeping together. Happens in every unit with females. Now tell me what happens when Pvt Jones finds out Pvt Snuffy has been banging his girlfriend? Pvt Jones and Pvt Snuffy are unable to work together from that point on. That leaves the unit with the option of getting rid of one or the other. Seriously we have enough of this issue just with guys nailing each others wives. The infantry don't need even more opportunities to "keep it in the family." Oh and of course the issue I've personally had to deal with on my first deployment. When one of my female soldiers caught something from one male and proceeded to spread it to four others in the same company. We were forced to send her home from deployment. Now is fraternization allowed down range? No. Does it happen ALL THE TIME. Yes. Which leads us to issue number 5.

5. Pregnancy. When a female becomes pregnant no matter what unit she is in she is almost always sent to HQ and takes up a paperwork position until she has her kid and comes off of her pregnancy profile. In an infantry unit a member being sent to headquarters because she couldn't use proper protection and leaving a hole in that squad is a big ****ing issue. This forces the males to pick up the slack caused by her absence.
*Side note-For those who don't know a profile means you're broke. Profiles are looked down upon as the worst form of scum in the military simply because 70-80% of them are just faking to get out of morning PT. They call that malingering and nobody likes working with a fat, lazy, out of shape, piece of shit, that doesn't put in as much work as everyone else.

6. There is no longer such thing as "Front lines." This isn't World War II. You are either outside the wire or not. This means that plenty of non infantry soldiers end up in combat. Guess what? That's fine. Females have no problem being productive in supply convoys, medical roles, etc. Just not extended foot patrols which is what the infantry does. It's literally a question of how much time you spend off the FOB on whether or not you'll get blown up or shot at. Even then there are attacks on FOBs and there are always mortars and rockets coming in to piss you off at night.

7. The argument of sexism is irrelevant. In the military the number one priority is the mission. Anything that gets in the way of the accomplishment of that mission is a ****ing problem. In combat. Problems kill. The military doesn't give two shits if you feel left out. At least you are alive and not getting someone killed.

Seriously. This should be a moot point. No women in male infantry units. I doubt anyone would give a shit if they made all female infantry units because it would be individuals of the same physical ability and logistical needs. That is a solution. Integrating them into male infantry units is not. If you disagree with anything I have said you are retarded and should stay the **** away from the military and anything closely resembling a voting booth.

Really great job clarifying these "misconceptions."

 

[Jin Hayami]

@Jin, nicely put mate.

But about the "frontline" thing.. hmm actually there still exists a front line. Front line is a reference to those who are sent first. Though however, this is not a wide scenario, considering the fact we are not even in actual Wars.

We have simply been in military conflicts for the past decades. However, my reference is to an actual war. For example, Vietnam (the last actual "war" we had).

And the problem with "separate women's unit" is again always challenged by the so called "equalists". Furthermore, they will not go over the men in physical combat roles, so we go back to square one. With the whole argument about "Why can't women be in the men's roles". X_X.

Look. That's not how it works. Infantry is given an area of responsibility. They patrol, search, and provide security in that area. If a female infantry unit deploys. They would be given an AOR and they would patrol, search, and provide security to it. There wouldn't be a choice of "Oh lets send those dudes from the 82nd over here instead of the girls from the Whateverthe****th!" You go. You do your job. You go home. You train. Then you rotate back out. It's a fairly simple system. If you do your job. You keep doing your job. If you **** up. They will cut your tour short or relieve your commanders and senior enlisted and replace them with someone who will get results.

Say we did go to war with an actual military. We have the most dominant Air Force and Navy in the world. Bar none. That lets us decide where the fight takes place. Always on foreign soil. Then we can proceed to bomb the shit out of them at our leisure while dropping leaflets on the enemy lines that say "If you are reading this then you are one of the three units listed on this pamphlet. If you do not surrender within 24 hours then a JDENS the most powerful conventional weapon known to man will be dropped on one of these three units. If you do not surrender after that a JDENS will be dropped on one of the two remaining units." They stay put and follow orders. We make the earth shake and people melt. The two remaining units quickly abandon their posts or are wiped out. So they either retreat, surrender, or get bombed to shit. Then the infantry comes in and mops up the minor open resistance remaining from the civilians and basically owns that land until the end of the war.
Lines of battle are an antiquated strategy in large scale warfare.

Any of the "equalists" that want women in male units better be prepared for those women to be seen in the nude regularly. They will not sacrifice the budget and equipment meant for many for a few so they better be prepared to use the same latrine, showers, and tent. Hell ever hear of the prickly heats? That's what you get when you've been on a compound for two weeks without a shower and your pours get filled with sweat, dirt, and sand. It gives you a hot prickling sensation wherever the heat of your body can't escape. Only way to make it stop is strip down and have your buddy scrape his dog tags or ID card over your body. It ****ing sucks. Imagine being a woman and having to have a man do that for you? Imagine not having access to a tampon for two months straight. Never. ****ing. Happening. If it does it will be a shit show.

 

[Headmaster]

Look. That's not how it works. Infantry is given an area of responsibility. They patrol, search, and provide security in that area. If a female infantry unit deploys. They would be given an AOR and they would patrol, search, and provide security to it. There wouldn't be a choice of "Oh lets send those dudes from the 82nd over here instead of the girls from the Whateverthe****th!" You go. You do your job. You go home. You train. Then you rotate back out. It's a fairly simple system. If you do your job. You keep doing your job. If you **** up. They will cut your tour short or relieve your commanders and senior enlisted and replace them with someone who will get results.

Say we did go to war with an actual military. We have the most dominant Air Force and Navy in the world. Bar none. That lets us decide where the fight takes place. Always on foreign soil. Then we can proceed to bomb the shit out of them at our leisure while dropping leaflets on the enemy lines that say "If you are reading this then you are one of the three units listed on this pamphlet. If you do not surrender within 24 hours then a JDENS the most powerful conventional weapon known to man will be dropped on one of these three units. If you do not surrender after that a JDENS will be dropped on one of the two remaining units." They stay put and follow orders. We make the earth shake and people melt. The two remaining units quickly abandon their posts or are wiped out. So they either retreat, surrender, or get bombed to shit. Then the infantry comes in and mops up the minor open resistance remaining from the civilians and basically owns that land until the end of the war.
Lines of battle are an antiquated strategy in large scale warfare.

Any of the "equalists" that want women in male units better be prepared for those women to be seen in the nude regularly. They will not sacrifice the budget and equipment meant for many for a few so they better be prepared to use the same latrine, showers, and tent. Hell ever hear of the prickly heats? That's what you get when you've been on a compound for two weeks without a shower and your pours get filled with sweat, dirt, and sand. It gives you a hot prickling sensation wherever the heat of your body can't escape. Only way to make it stop is strip down and have your buddy scrape his dog tags or ID card over your body. It ****ing sucks. Imagine being a woman and having to have a man do that for you? Imagine not having access to a tampon for two months straight. Never. ****ing. Happening. If it does it will be a shit show.

Lmfao

Who cares women will serve regardless of these bs excuses. Women who want to serve Know what the stakes are. Women can be seals by 2016. About the hygiene part and the men smell like dog crap too do they complain. If your able to serve in the military and risk your life you can sacrifice a tampon. So what if a woman get nude and I thought people in the military are mature human beings and not animals who rape. If someone tried to rape they will get kicked in the balls or get killed. Don't act like women are helpless people who can't defend themselves. These are soldiers not regular civilians.


Anyways it doesn't matter whether you or any other person agrees on women being in the front lines because it is happening. And women are just as good as men

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[FourthSmokage]

Almost anybody can shoot a gun. The days where wars were fought hand-to hand or with axes, swords, shields, bows and arrows are long behind us.

Its a much more even playing field now. Still, I think war is wrong and nobody should participate in general.

But if guys are allowed to do it, females should be too. If she's a good markswoman then I'd be happy to have her for team 'Murrica

 

[Jin Hayami]

Lmfao

Who cares women will serve regardless of these bs excuses. Women who want to serve Know what the stakes are. Women can be seals by 2016. About the hygiene part and the men smell like dog crap too do they complain. If your able to serve in the military and risk your life you can sacrifice a tampon. So what if a woman get nude and I thought people in the military are mature human beings and not animals who rape. If someone tried to rape they will get kicked in the balls or get killed. Don't act like women are helpless people who can't defend themselves. These are soldiers not regular civilians.


Anyways it doesn't matter whether you or any other person agrees on women being in the front lines because it is happening. And women are just as good as men

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Women won't be seals by 16 unless some dipshit senator writes a memo saying they have to pass the first one. I am strongly in favor of women serving. Just not in the infantry and they should probably stay out of artillery too. (Fisters have to lift 155's all day which is why you'll never see a skinny one) Your article has them talking about professional triathletes barely making the minimum for selection. Guess what? THE MINIMUM DOESN'T CUT IT. You know what me and my soldiers worry about on the PT Test? Not the minimum but whether we can reach the maximum. That's how soldiers should think. They expect you to get a lot stronger while you are in training. If you don't and you keep doing the minimum or failing then your ass gets cut. Your perception of the military is horribly ignorant. These aren't mature adults. The average age of a soldier is 19 for Christs sake. Most of them are here because they screwed up in the civilian world and needed a fresh start. There are some real scumbags in the military we just don't portray that and kick them out as quickly as possible. You have no idea the retardation I have witnessed in the army. You clearly have no idea what your talking about with females defending themselves against rape.

Almost anybody can shoot a gun. The days where wars were fought hand-to hand or with axes, swords, shields, bows and arrows are long behind us.

Its a much more even playing field now. Still, I think war is wrong and nobody should participate in general.

But if guys are allowed to do it, females should be too. If she's a good markswoman then I'd be happy to have her for team 'Murrica

Grab your backpack. Put 35 pounds in it not including water. Walk ten miles at a thirteen minute mile pace. You will be smoked. Congratulations. You have met the standard for non combat oriented MOS's on a ruck march. Without kit. Infantry have to wear a thirty pound kit, five pound helmet, 6.4 pound M4 (assuming you aren't the saw gunner), about ten pounds for your 210 rounds of ammunition, extra water is about another 5. So 35+30+5+6.4+10+5=101.4 pounds of equipment. That you have to carry. ALL DAY. Not including sensitive items and individual equipment they make your responsibility like the Talon litter, the jammer, the radio, etc. That's just a basic rifleman. Not a mortars, not a SAW gunner, not a sniper. Just a regular infantry rifleman. It's not about hand to hand combat. While that element will never go away I never brought it up in my post because it isn't a very large factor anymore. You still have to wrestle with disgruntled detainees some times but I haven't ever seen a flat out fight between a handcuffed detainee and a soldier. What we ask soldiers to do regularly breaks men. Who physically stronger than women. Those who aren't are weeded out. Quickly.

Women definitely have a place in all branches of the military and while a lot of them are wash outs I grew up under some outstanding female NCO's. They do not however have the same physical build of men and therefore shouldn't be in MOS's that regularly test the physical limits of men because they will not meet the standards and completely **** those units on a logistics level.

 

[Trinky]

Being female, I'm all for gender equality and stuff, but...this is stupid. Physically, we are weaker, there's no denying that. Men are primarily chosen for front lines because they have the correct level of strength. I disagree with lowering the requirements for women =/ if you want to join these kind of things, you meet the same requirements as everyone else.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying in any way that we're not capable. I'm sure there are many women that can demonstrate the same kind of potential as men when it comes to physical requirements. It's just not particularly common. If you're going to drop the requirements for women, what happens to men that meet those requirements, but not the ones set for men themselves? They'd be excluding men with the same abilities >_> it makes no sense.

If you want real equality, you set the same standards for everyone. xD

 

[Ficklefire]

- Should be allowed for equality in gender
- Women can do anything men can
- Military is being prejudice. ​

1.) Equality in gender isn't equality in danger.
2.) Women obviously can't if there are different physical standards.
3.) Prejudice is hardly the culprit of trying to keep physically inferior soldiers from the front lines.

That said, I have no problem with putting women into combat roles and positions. I think there are few differences between the tactical abilities of either gender, but I do think that there are notable physical differences. Even if you look at women's body builders, they don't typically get as strong as the males do. The same is true when it comes to other physical statistics than pure strength.

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by a female BBC journalist and running enthusiast suggests that men are better equipped to run than women with the following lines:

Men experience this unfairness as they get older. Ten miles into a half-marathon, older men can only struggle on with growing irritation as younger men - men who would not have stood a chance against them in their prime - sail past.For women, the feeling of injustice comes as soon as we start racing.
Men have bigger hearts and can take in and move around oxygen much more efficiently than women can.

While women do have the same tactical capability as men, they just don't have the physical qualities that're sought in a soldier. In my opinion, if a woman happens to meet the standards and criteria that male soldiers are required to meet, I have no problem with them fighting on the front lines. It's only fair that they be able to, should they meet the requirements and be found capable of fitting in with the other soldiers cohesively.

 

[TJ600]

To be blunt, women are not as physically gifted as men are on average. Period. Lowering the standards for women to enter the military is incredibly stupid and will only lead to more problems. Now,if there's a women who can handle the workload(literally), then I am all for her gaining entry-but the standards MUST NOT be dropped just for women.

We see a similar problem in the police force in my country(Australia) I read an article some time back about female police officers getting assaulted/overpowered by criminals more often on average than the male police officers.

 

[paratise]

I don't think standarts should be lowered for it; there should be a definite standart for everyone; if a woman can get pass it gratz she can become a part of force that requires certain attiributes.

That's how i see it. Women can't get set aside form this but neither should standarts.

In a perfect world sexism would not exist but in a perfect world neither would military forces.