[Discussion] Why Hashirama and Naruto can both possess Ashura's chakra

[Behemoth55]

Thanks, I never really understood how the Edo Jinchuuriki thing worked

I stated that they arent separate entities because of Hashi's powers and how they're effect is almost identical to Naruto's Kyuubi cloak

Both the Kyuubi chakra cloak and Hashi's DNA greatly increase the powers of the user and even have healing affects. BM was undoubtedly made to mirror the younger son's ability. Hashi's power comes from being an incarnation of Ashura, there is no other way to explain it. If Ashura's power were similar to the Jinchuuriki process then him losing ashura's chakra, like losing a bijuu would result in the loss of his abilities and they haven't

There is an alternative though, it could be a case like KCM in which even though Ashura's chakra (as a spirit) left Hashi, some of its chakra, or its inherent chakra properties remained. This is possible, but it feels like splitting hairs though.

Sorry, to say that, but that's wrong. Hashiramas DNA enhances the physical energy, without Ashuras chakra.Kuramas chakra on the other hand is just a strong variation of chakra. The stronger the chakra, the stronger the Ninjutsu.
The healing abilities doesn't have to do with Ashuras chakra either. The best example for that is Shiro Zetsu, who's a clone of Hashirama.
Whether Hashirama or Madara used the chakra of the two sons for her abilities and Ninjutsu. Otherwise Madaras Susanoo would have the same color as Sasukes Susanoo, but actually, that's not the case.

Hashiramas power came from his own Kekkai Genkai, Ashuras chakra didn't influence that.

 

[ANiMUS]

one word

Transmigration

how do you reanimate chakra that has transmigrated, [not a physical body part] ?

Re-incarnation means beginning a life in a new body

Sasuke can still awaken the rinnegan from whatever power up he receives from Hagoromo

As he explained it wasn't the mix of uchiha and senju, but rather the mix of indra and ashura which awakened the rinnegan, [explains why Obito did not awaken his own rinnegan]

To put it plainly you fake the chakra just like ET does everything else. I think u are mixing up soul with chakra. Even if Hashirama doesn't have Ashura's soul as long as he has it's power within his own chakra that's all that matters.

Sorry, to say that, but that's wrong. Hashiramas DNA enhances the physical energy, without Ashuras chakra.Kuramas chakra on the other hand is just a strong variation of chakra. The stronger the chakra, the stronger the Ninjutsu.
The healing abilities doesn't have to do with Ashuras chakra either. The best example for that is Shiro Zetsu, who's a clone of Hashirama.
Whether Hashirama or Madara used the chakra of the two sons for her abilities and Ninjutsu. Otherwise Madaras Susanoo would have the same color as Sasukes Susanoo, but actually, that's not the case.

Hashiramas power came from his own Kekkai Genkai, Ashuras chakra didn't influence that.

Can you prove it didn't influence his power? Just like how Madara is Madara and Sasuke is Sasuke though they are reincarnations they are ppl as well and therefore variate. My point was that the Kyuubi cloak in which Naruto uses was modeled after the YS. Of course it's bijuu chakra, because the cloaks similar designs and the knowledge we have on the similar paths the abilities will most likely match up.

If u can show me a single of Senju with power similar to Hashirama I will believe you. Yamato has Hashi's KKG, but not have Hashi's high physical energy or strength.

 

[Orochimagus]

Except that Hagoromo stated otherwise, Shiro. This seems to be a different concept of charka or at beast a different facet we had not been explained yet. Sasuke is the current holder of the essence and Madara was an edo.

Samater also has a point. If the chakra leaves the body after someone dies and migrates to a new host, won't Edo just revive the person without the chakra?

 

[Uchiha Samater]

To put it plainly you fake the chakra just like ET does everything else. I think u are mixing up soul with chakra. Even if Hashirama doesn't have Ashura's soul as long as he has it's power within his own chakra that's all that matters.

Not quite

I was referring to chakra , specifically Ashura's which is with Naruto

Spoiler

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Unlike Itachi's eyes which you used as an example, Hagoromo used the word Reincarnation:

Which of course means:

Reincarnation is the religious or philosophical concept that the soul or spirit, after biological death, begins a new life in a new body that may be human, animal or spiritual depending on the moral quality of the previous life's actions

Spoiler

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This means the Chakra would leave the dead body of Hashirama

Itachi's body died, and when you say body you have to include his eyes and his own chakra

Hashirama died and you would include his chakra

Ashura has been dead for a long time, his Chakra has moved to a new body

The chakra of Ashura, [and by that stretch Indra], just moves on, Edo Tensei wouldn't copy Ashura/Indra's chakra, the way ET copies the original body and host chakra, simply because:

It has moved on


This is unless Hashirama, [and by that Logic Madara, and anyone else they have inhabited], copy the chakra, which unfortunately has no sense or logic

 

[ANiMUS]

Except that Hagoromo stated otherwise, Shiro. This seems to be a different concept of charka or at beast a different facet we had not been explained yet. Sasuke is the current holder of the essence and Madara was an edo.

Samater also has a point. If the chakra leaves the body after someone dies and migrates to a new host, won't Edo just revive the person without the chakra?

Tell that to Madara. Whether you believe Ashura/ Indra's chakra was resurrected or not in order to reawaken the Rinnengan as an ET at least some of Ashura/ Indra's power had to have remained

Not quite

I was referring to chakra , specifically Ashura's which is with Naruto

Spoiler

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Unlike Itachi's eyes which you used as an example, Hagoromo used the word Reincarnation:

Which of course means:

Reincarnation is the religious or philosophical concept that the soul or spirit, after biological death, begins a new life in a new body that may be human, animal or spiritual depending on the moral quality of the previous life's actions

Spoiler

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This means the Chakra would leave the dead body of Hashirama

Itachi's body died, and when you say body you have to include his eyes and his own chakra

Hashirama died and you would include his chakra

Ashura has been dead for a long time, his Chakra has moved to a new body

The chakra of Ashura, [and by that stretch Indra], just moves on, Edo Tensei wouldn't copy Ashura/Indra's chakra, the way ET copies the original body and host chakra, simply because:

It has moved on


This is unless Hashirama, [and by that Logic Madara, and anyone else they have inhabited], copy the chakra, which unfortunately has no sense or logic

So in other words u r saying a previous vessel simply remains a previous vessel with no ties or remnant of the two Sons' power. I find that hard to believe seeing how Madara himself could reawaken the Rinnengan in from ET. He not have access to either chakra. He died without his eyes, and even if Kabuto was able to regress his state of Ressurrection that would mean that his eyes would have yet to develop Rinnengan.

 

[Uchiha Samater]

Tell that to Madara. Whether you believe Ashura/ Indra's chakra was resurrected or not in order to reawaken the Rinnengan as an ET at least some of Ashura/ Indra's power had to have remained

Once again not quite

There is still the time period between Madara's ''DEATH'' at the valley of the end, and when he actually inserted Hashirama DNA into himself

[Nothing has been confirmed regarding this, so i will take all assumptions as assumptions until proof is provided, this works both ways so my own assumption is still an assumption at the end of the day]

Madara awakened the rinnegan prior to his death, [prior to obito, as he had given them away by then]

He did so by the following:

Spoiler

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Now as i mentioned earlier, as Madara was greatly wounded at TVOTE, so if were to assume he was saved by inserting DNA of hashirama then

Hashirama and Madara were both still alive at that moment, which would mean they were the current reincarnations of Ashura and Indra

As Hagoromo said he awakened his chakra by doing this, the rinnegan did not come straight away, so who is to say that Hagoromo's chakra was not awakened already and had taken time to manifest itself?

 

[ANiMUS]

Once again not quite

There is still the time period between Madara's ''DEATH'' at the valley of the end, and when he actually inserted Hashirama DNA into himself

[Nothing has been confirmed regarding this, so i will take all assumptions as assumptions until proof is provided, this works both ways so my own assumption is still an assumption at the end of the day]

Madara awakened the rinnegan prior to his death, [prior to obito, as he had given them away by then]

He did so by the following:

Spoiler

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Now as i mentioned earlier, as Madara was greatly wounded at TVOTE, so if were to assume he was saved by inserting DNA of hashirama then

Hashirama and Madara were both still alive at that moment, which would mean they were the current reincarnations of Ashura and Indra

As Hagoromo said he awakened his chakra by doing this, the rinnegan did not come straight away, so who is to say that Hagoromo's chakra was not awakened already and had taken time to manifest itself?

It said that the two chakras mixed but it did not say when Madara developed Hagoromo's chakra. According to Madara the DNA he got from Hashi did nothing (show no results) till near death. I see no reason as to why chakra would remain dormant till the last moment of your life. Its my assumption that it is the near transmigration that caused the mixture and the awakening of Hagoromo's chakra.
The only way I could see your explanation as even somewhat plausible is if before his actually death Madara died and Indra died leaving only Hagoromo's chakra which then revived Madara


That being said it was clearly stated that the "bringing out of Hagoromo's chakra was what caused the Rinnengan so it seems evident that it was at that point in which Madara developed Hagoromo's chakra

 

[Uchiha Samater]

It said that the two chakras mixed but it did not say when Madara developed Hagoromo's chakra. According to Madara the DNA he got from Hashi did nothing (show no results) till near death. I see no reason as to why chakra would remain dormant till the last moment of your life. Its my assumption that it is the near transmigration that caused the mixture and the awakening of Hagoromo's chakra.
The only way I could see your explanation as even somewhat plausible is if before his actually death Madara died and Indra died leaving only Hagoromo's chakra which then revived Madara


That being said it was clearly stated that the "bringing out of Hagoromo's chakra was what caused the Rinnengan so it seems evident that it was at that point in which Madara developed Hagoromo's chakra

There is no proof for either or

The only fact we have is that Hagoromo's chakra was awakened , we can class this as a separate entity

[Yellow + Blue = Green for example]

There can be plenty reasons why Hagoromo chakra manifested itself into a rinnegan later in Madara's life, as there is reasons why it could and should have activated straight away

unable to come to a end conclusion until Kishi lays into detail regarding that

however makes no difference as i stated earlier

Sasuke is receiving chakra directly from what Madara awakened

Hashi is not needed, even if possible, to awaken the Rinnegan

 

[Behemoth55]

Can you prove it didn't influence his power? Just like how Madara is Madara and Sasuke is Sasuke though they are reincarnations they are ppl as well and therefore variate. My point was that the Kyuubi cloak in which Naruto uses was modeled after the YS. Of course it's bijuu chakra, because the cloaks similar designs and the knowledge we have on the similar paths the abilities will most likely match up.

If u can show me a single of Senju with power similar to Hashirama I will believe you. Yamato has Hashi's KKG, but not have Hashi's high physical energy or strength.

Hashiramas DNA enhances-like I have said before-the physical energy. Danzo got because of it more stamina but his Jutsu itself didn't get stronger.
Your point is irrelevant, because Naruto appearance in Biju-Mode comes from his seal. That's why Minato looks almost the same. Ashuras Jutsu and Indoras Susanoo were simply an ideogram to underline the parallel to Naruto and Sasuke.

Your statement regarding Madara and Sasuke is not true. The color of Susanoo can't differ if they use the same origin of chakra. Sasuke and Madara have forged during their whole life after all chakra with their own physical and spiritual energy. That's why Sasukes Susanoo is purple and Madaras blue.

 

[ANiMUS]

Hashiramas DNA enhances-like I have said before-the physical energy. Danzo got because of it more stamina but his Jutsu itself didn't get stronger.
Your point is irrelevant, because Naruto appearance in Biju-Mode comes from his seal. That's why Minato looks almost the same. Ashuras Jutsu and Indoras Susanoo were simply an ideogram to underline the parallel to Naruto and Sasuke.

Your statement regarding Madara and Sasuke is not true. The color of Susanoo can't differ if they use the same origin of chakra. Sasuke and Madara have forged during their whole life after all chakra with their own physical and spiritual energy. That's why Sasukes Susanoo is purple and Madaras blue.

Both Madara and Sasuke were known for their cold dark chakra and its likely that Hashirama like Naruto had warm bright chakra.
Both Indra's and Ashura's incarnation's chakras developed according to their origins. Sasuke's chakra differs for one reason because his exposure to Oro's CM. CM chakra purple and Sasuke's chakra has adapted to the CM and therefore has taken on its color

 

[Behemoth55]

Both Madara and Sasuke were known for their cold dark chakra and its likely that Hashirama like Naruto had warm bright chakra.

Yes, but Sasukes chakra is "darker" than Madaras. There is a difference after all.

Sasuke's chakra differs for one reason because his exposure to Oro's CM. CM chakra purple and Sasuke's chakra has adapted to the CM and therefore has taken on its color

Not really. Karin said, [MS] Sasukes chakra is even darker and colder than in his C2 state. The Juin doesn't change the chakra-signature permanently, but only during the activation of C1 and C2. Orochimarus Juin bestows the user with a piece of Senchakra in exchange for his own chakra. Sasukes chakra is still compatible to Orochimarus Juin or Jūgos Senninka, but it doesn't hold it effects anymore.

 

[BlackFlame44]

Because Kishi want's him that way. There is no logic behind that, but simply capriciousness. However, on the other hand Edo Tensei became one of the best known Jutsu. Kabuto, Matabi, Tobirama, Orochimaru and the databook mentioned nearly every relevant detail to describe that kind of Kuchiyose Jutsu.

I love it when people ignore facts just for the sake of *****ing

 

[Behemoth55]

I love it when people ignore facts just for the sake of *****ing

Proof me wrong. What do you mean exactly?

 

[ANiMUS]

Yes, but Sasukes chakra is "darker" than Madaras. There is a difference after all.


Not really. Karin said, [MS] Sasukes chakra is even darker and colder than in his C2 state. The Juin doesn't change the chakra-signature permanently, but only during the activation of C1 and C2. Orochimarus Juin bestows the user with a piece of Senchakra in exchange for his own chakra. Sasukes chakra is still compatible to Orochimarus Juin or Jūgos Senninka, but it doesn't hold it effects anymore.

Actually, Sasuke's chakra only started to become dark after attaining the CM. Sasuke's chakra color changed into that of the CM's. The CM is mentally corrosive so that alone could be the reason Sasuke's chakra began to grow dark, the fact that Sasuke's chakra had to adjust for the CM and is still adjusted means that even after losing the CM there was lasting change

 

[Behemoth55]

Actually, Sasuke's chakra only started to become dark after attaining the CM.

No, after attaining the Mangekyō his chakra became even more dark.

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At that time Sasuke coudn't be influenced by Orochimarus Juin, right? The Juin can't be the cause for Sasukes chakra color.
Try again.

A question:

The way of functioning of Orochimarus Juin and Jūgos Senninka is almost the same. But why doesn't change Jūgos chakra in his usual state, huh?

the fact that Sasuke's chakra had to adjust for the CM and is still adjusted means that even after losing the CM there was lasting change

His body is still compatible with Jūgos chakra, nothing more.

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As you can see the power of the Juin and Jūgos Senchakra doesn't change the chakra itself, but put the Senchakra on top of the other.