[Discussion] Who said Uchiha or Senju (pure-blood) have a lot of chakra reserves?

[FearxDeath]

I was going to flat out disagree and think nothing of the thread, but then I saw "Hirudora" and figured there had to be something to the thread, the new picture fooled me lol.

Well lets get to this:

Their is a certain kind of Prima facie plausibility to this thread if your not paying careful attention. But lets analyze why you are saying what you are saying, I would think it all stems from this qoute:

"The Elder Son was born with the Sage's eyes and was gifted with his powerful Chakras and Spiritual Energy. The Younger Son was born with the Sages body and was gifted with his Life Force and Physical Energies." [

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Now the error I think we are making here is assuming sort of mutual exclusivity where in we assume that just because the Elder Brother was gifted with an abundance of spiritual energy, he therefore does not have alot of physical energy, because that was left to the Younger brother. This ofcourse isnt the case. Based on the above we cannot assume that the the Elder Brother, and in turn the younger brother, were born with any less Physical/Spiritual energy. All we can say is that is that they have alot of one. So logically one cannot assert that, which is why Hirudora, you clever bastard, doesnt try to assert it, he gets us to argue the negative. Anyone with a brain knows you never argue a negative. You never argue why something isnt something, you argue why it is. No man in his right mind would go around collecting evidence that Santa Claus doesnt exist, instead you ask a person to provide evidence that he Does exist.


Now a Second way to attack this idea is the fact that Hashirama was a Sage. To become a Sage you need to have a immense pool of Chakra. To mold chakra you must balance yin and yang energies. Lets look at it like this:

• To make the worlds Largest hamburger you need a Huge Bun and a Huge amount of Meat...
• Person A has a Huge amount of Meat but we are not sure how large his buns are.
• Person A creates the worlds largest Hamburger
• Therefore there it can be inferred that his Buns are quite large, it may not be as large as his meat, but having huge buns are a requirement for creating the worlds largest hamburger bun. Therefore his buns must be quite large.

Now this only shows that Hashirama has a decently large pool of Yin energies. Which is all I need in order to dispute the generalization that Senju do not have large Yin Energy pools, vice versa for the Uchiha.

If I were to give my own opinion I would say all Senju have large Yang Energies, vice versa for Uchiha, and their Yin Energies are relative to regular people being stronger or worst depending on situations. Remember Yin Energies reflects ones experience and state of mind. So it is possible to increase ones Yin Energies, the same goes for Yang Energies which are based on Life Force/Will Power and the Bodies Strength. (Someone like Gai and Rock Lee probably have alot of yang energies, even thought they are not Senju)

 

[Touken]

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I really don't agree with the Senju holding great quantity of chakra reserves / stamina, told the reasons. Both are based on both Physical and Spiritual Energy, the Senju clan lacks the second type (so by logic they have moderate stamina / chakra with a lot of yang properties ).

Madara and Hashirama are exceptions, because they were the strongest among their own clans, but that doesn't make every Senju/Uchiha as strong as these two. That's a fallacy.

It's the Yang properties that grant them higher stamina. Remember, they don't lack Yin energy, it's just that they have much more Yang than Yin. One can't exist without the other; that's been established by Kishimoto in almost every aspect of the shinobi world.

The only thing I'm confused with is what exactly is Yin Energy.

Think of it like this:
average shinobi: 50% Yin & 50% Yang
Senju: 50% Yin & 75% Yang
Uchiha: 75% Yin & 50% Yang

Yeah I know that they don't equal to 100% but just go with it.

 

[NaraFanboy]

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Exactly. That's because both of these concepts have the same origin: Physical and Spiritual Energy. It is not strange that any user who got plenty of both of these energies can be stated to have great amount of chakra / stamina, for instance, Naruto.

But there is a practical distinction. The reason of why Naruto is panting now in the war is simple... Naruto hasn't been able to recover stamina for some days, his own reserves of physical and spiritual energies are practically zero. In the other hand, Kurama has been providing him with molded chakra (not spiritual and physical energy, but already molded chakra) so Naruto can't transform that chakra back to spiritual and physical energy to get stamina, unless he have mastery over the Yin Yang Release (the knowledge to divide back these energies).

Hirudora, you had just about everything right barring the possibility for people who eat/ absorb chakra to gain back physical strength. It is seen many times, starting with Yoroi vs. Sasuke. (

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Other incidents I don't have pages for include, but are not limited to:
Juugo giving body parts chakra to Sasuke
Choji beefing up on Kurama chakras
Kisame

These people seem to turn intangible chakra into physical "stamina."

Other than that all you said was on point and I'm not bringing these up to start a syntax war on friggen "stamina." If translations could always accurately convey their message NB would be less flooded with incessant bickering, no?



*More importantly the premise of this post posits whether or not two nearly extinct [fictional] family lineages possess a specific quality... Let me ask OP: How strong is a Nazi?
There is exactly one living Senju: Tsunade. (A more interesting question would be question where her family is.)
There are exactly two living Uchiha: Obito, Sasuke.
They all got pretty b*tchin chakra (in no specific order please ffs). Case closed on the SenjUchichakra mystery.


**Most importantly, this thread has been done.**

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[osba]

I was going to flat out disagree and think nothing of the thread, but then I saw "Hirudora" and figured there had to be something to the thread, the new picture fooled me lol.

Well lets get to this:

Their is a certain kind of Prima facie plausibility to this thread if your not paying careful attention. But lets analyze why you are saying what you are saying, I would think it all stems from this qoute:

"The Elder Son was born with the Sage's eyes and was gifted with his powerful Chakras and Spiritual Energy. The Younger Son was born with the Sages body and was gifted with his Life Force and Physical Energies." [

You must be registered for see links

]

Now the error I think we are making here is assuming sort of mutual exclusivity where in we assume that just because the Elder Brother was gifted with an abundance of spiritual energy, he therefore does not have alot of physical energy, because that was left to the Younger brother. This ofcourse isnt the case. Based on the above we cannot assume that the the Elder Brother, and in turn the younger brother, were born with any less Physical/Spiritual energy. All we can say is that is that they have alot of one. So logically one cannot assert that, which is why Hirudora, you clever bastard, doesnt try to assert it, he gets us to argue the negative. Anyone with a brain knows you never argue a negative. You never argue why something isnt something, you argue why it is. No man in his right mind would go around collecting evidence that Santa Claus doesnt exist, instead you ask a person to provide evidence that he Does exist.


Now a Second way to attack this idea is the fact that Hashirama was a Sage. To become a Sage you need to have a immense pool of Chakra. To mold chakra you must balance yin and yang energies. Lets look at it like this:

• To make the worlds Largest hamburger you need a Huge Bun and a Huge amount of Meat...
• Person A has a Huge amount of Meat but we are not sure how large his buns are.
• Person A creates the worlds largest Hamburger
• Therefore there it can be inferred that his Buns are quite large, it may not be as large as his meat, but having huge buns are a requirement for creating the worlds largest hamburger bun. Therefore his buns must be quite large.

Now this only shows that Hashirama has a decently large pool of Yin energies. Which is all I need in order to dispute the generalization that Senju do not have large Yin Energy pools, vice versa for the Uchiha.

If I were to give my own opinion I would say all Senju have large Yang Energies, vice versa for Uchiha, and their Yin Energies are relative to regular people being stronger or worst depending on situations. Remember Yin Energies reflects ones experience and state of mind. So it is possible to increase ones Yin Energies, the same goes for Yang Energies which are based on Life Force/Will Power and the Bodies Strength. (Someone like Gai and Rock Lee probably have alot of yang energies, even thought they are not Senju)

your forgetting that, since kurama "explained" why naruto wasnt capable of using kyuubi sage mode, yin - yang energy should be looked at diffrent.. it seems that if you have yang, you can now create yin chakra effordlessly.

 

[FearxDeath]

your forgetting that, since kurama "explained" why naruto wasnt capable of using kyuubi sage mode, yin - yang energy should be looked at diffrent.. it seems that if you have yang, you can now create yin chakra effordlessly.

Please elaborate on this, preferably with a scan from the manga, because I dont recall what you are talking about right now.

 

[Mr Hiru]

I was going to flat out disagree and think nothing of the thread, but then I saw "Hirudora" and figured there had to be something to the thread, the new picture fooled me lol.

Well lets get to this:

Their is a certain kind of Prima facie plausibility to this thread if your not paying careful attention. But lets analyze why you are saying what you are saying, I would think it all stems from this qoute:

"The Elder Son was born with the Sage's eyes and was gifted with his powerful Chakras and Spiritual Energy. The Younger Son was born with the Sages body and was gifted with his Life Force and Physical Energies." [

You must be registered for see links

]

Now the error I think we are making here is assuming sort of mutual exclusivity where in we assume that just because the Elder Brother was gifted with an abundance of spiritual energy, he therefore does not have alot of physical energy, because that was left to the Younger brother. This ofcourse isnt the case. Based on the above we cannot assume that the the Elder Brother, and in turn the younger brother, were born with any less Physical/Spiritual energy. All we can say is that is that they have alot of one. So logically one cannot assert that, which is why Hirudora, you clever bastard, doesnt try to assert it, he gets us to argue the negative. Anyone with a brain knows you never argue a negative. You never argue why something isnt something, you argue why it is. No man in his right mind would go around collecting evidence that Santa Claus doesnt exist, instead you ask a person to provide evidence that he Does exist.


Now a Second way to attack this idea is the fact that Hashirama was a Sage. To become a Sage you need to have a immense pool of Chakra. To mold chakra you must balance yin and yang energies. Lets look at it like this:

• To make the worlds Largest hamburger you need a Huge Bun and a Huge amount of Meat...
• Person A has a Huge amount of Meat but we are not sure how large his buns are.
• Person A creates the worlds largest Hamburger
• Therefore there it can be inferred that his Buns are quite large, it may not be as large as his meat, but having huge buns are a requirement for creating the worlds largest hamburger bun. Therefore his buns must be quite large.

Now this only shows that Hashirama has a decently large pool of Yin energies. Which is all I need in order to dispute the generalization that Senju do not have large Yin Energy pools, vice versa for the Uchiha.

If I were to give my own opinion I would say all Senju have large Yang Energies, vice versa for Uchiha, and their Yin Energies are relative to regular people being stronger or worst depending on situations. Remember Yin Energies reflects ones experience and state of mind. So it is possible to increase ones Yin Energies, the same goes for Yang Energies which are based on Life Force/Will Power and the Bodies Strength. (Someone like Gai and Rock Lee probably have alot of yang energies, even thought they are not Senju)

Dude, I just made a post answering your respectable debate style and your arguments, that for me, are solid, but have a flaw. Sadly, my internet went out and I lost the post, so I'll resume it so. I need to clearify something.

First. Your bolded phrase, it's not an opinion... it's manga fact. That's the reason of why I said Madara and Hashirama were exceptions, prodigies amongs their respective clans, that's why they were declared leaders. They didn't only have large Yin / Yang energies respectively, their unique chakra pools were also extraordinary, and by transitivity their stamina were also large, on both cases.

Second, and sadly my objection... Since you're stating it, the lack of burden is on you: Prove me every Senju clan member learned sage mode, and I will be able to infere that they all have moderate to large reserves. If not, it's possible... but until it's proven, nobody can assert it's a fact.

Furthermore, about your counterargument of moderate yin + large yang, that doesn't make sense. That's like saying 1 + 1 = 3, the sage can't sacrifice more than what he can give to create his two sons. Look at chapter 510 and you'll see that these clans were mentioned while the Sage was using the jutsu of Creation. He had to sacrifice 100/100 to create two entities, one with 90/10 and other with 10/90, and remain himself balanced. I don't remember the exact chapter, but it was mentioned these bloodlines thinned. It doesn't make sense to say that they thinned if they had a proportion like 40/60, they couldn't thin when time passed, the proportion would be almost equal, and yet there you have users with Mangekyo sharingan and special chakra... or Hashirama/Yamato/Zetsu who used Mokuton element at some extent.

---

About my style of argumentation... You know I'll never argue a positive if there is definite proof supporting it, that's a fact. You know I'll always welcome something that is not stated if it makes sense and doesn't have definite proof against it, that's a possibility. And you know I'll always argue something if there is proof against it, specially if that proof is definite. That's my motto after all.

Finally, let me break your statement about me not arguing why something isn't something. I opened this topic because a lot of people are taking a possibility as a fact, and instancing counterarguments:

- I'm stating that Stamina is not physical energy (only)
- I'm stating that Chakra is not lifeforce (only)
- I'm stating that Uchiha/Senju Clan don't hold high chakra/stamina

I'm precisely arguing why something isn't something.

 

[osba]

Please elaborate on this, preferably with a scan from the manga, because I dont recall what you are talking about right now.

kurama "explaining" why naruto couldnt use sage mode before:

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naruto being teached about sage mode (including the ratio's of spiritual and physical energies!)

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as we know naruto has yang energy kurama.. he did get the yin energy from minato's kurama but that does not seem to be the deciding factor because kishi wanted to bullshit us.

how is he bullshitting us with this "because i didn't want you to use it" story?

Spoiler

kurama said it was because he was angry too.. if you go back there in the manga, you can see that naruto let himself be stabbed.. he didnt even try to dodge nor did he react surprised when it hit him.

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so out of this, we can conclude that anyone with yang energy, can generate yin energy.

narutoverse = raped by deciding that, naruto getting the yin making KSM possible, would somehow be a bad thing.

 

[Mr Hiru]

kurama "explaining" why naruto couldnt use sage mode before:

You must be registered for see links

naruto being teached about sage mode (including the ratio's of spiritual and physical energies!)

You must be registered for see links

as we know naruto has yang energy kurama.. he did get the yin energy from minato's kurama but that does not seem to be the deciding factor because kishi wanted to bullshit us.

how is he bullshitting us with this "because i didn't want you to use it" story?

Spoiler

kurama said it was because he was angry too.. if you go back there in the manga, you can see that naruto let himself be stabbed.. he didnt even try to dodge nor did he react surprised when it hit him.

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so out of this, we can conclude that anyone with yang energy, can generate yin energy.

narutoverse = raped by deciding that, naruto getting the yin making KSM possible, would somehow be a bad thing.

I have the impression you got it wrong. Your first manga reference makes reference to the use of both Kurama Yang Energy and Sage Mode. Kurama was stating Naruto couldn't use the 'fusion' between the Sage Toads and himself because Kurama wouldn't share space with them inside Naruto's body.

Do you remember what happened before Naruto awakened Bijuu Sage Mode?

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Apparently Naruto now holds the ratio pretty much balanced.

 

[FearxDeath]

First. Your bolded phrase, it's not an opinion... it's manga fact. That's the reason of why I said Madara and Hashirama were exceptions, prodigies amongs their respective clans, that's why they were declared leaders. They didn't only have large Yin / Yang energies respectively, their unique chakra pools were also extraordinary, and by transitivity their stamina were also large, on both cases.

Second, and sadly my objection... Since you're stating it, the lack of burden is on you: Prove me every Senju clan member learned sage mode, and I will be able to infere that they all have moderate to large reserves. If not, it's possible... but until it's proven, nobody can assert it's a fact.

Furthermore, about your counterargument of moderate yin + large yang, that doesn't make sense. That's like saying 1 + 1 = 3, the sage can't sacrifice more than what he can give to create his two sons. Look at chapter 510 and you'll see that these clans were mentioned while the Sage was using the jutsu of Creation. He had to sacrifice 100/100 to create two entities, one with 90/10 and other with 10/90, and remain himself balanced. I don't remember the exact chapter, but it was mentioned these bloodlines thinned. It doesn't make sense to say that they thinned if they had a proportion like 40/60, they couldn't thin when time passed, the proportion would be almost equal, and yet there you have users with Mangekyo sharingan and special chakra... or Hashirama/Yamato/Zetsu who used Mokuton element at some extent.

---

About my style of argumentation... You know I'll never argue a positive if there is definite proof supporting it, that's a fact. You know I'll always welcome something that is not stated if it makes sense and doesn't have definite proof against it, that's a possibility. And you know I'll always argue something if there is proof against it, specially if that proof is definite. That's my motto after all.

Finally, let me break your statement about me not arguing why something isn't something. I opened this topic because a lot of people are taking a possibility as a fact, and instancing counterarguments:

- I'm stating that Stamina is not physical energy (only)
- I'm stating that Chakra is not lifeforce (only)
- I'm stating that Uchiha/Senju Clan don't hold high chakra/stamina

I'm precisely arguing why something isn't something.

As always it is a pleasure to be debating with you Hido, Ill respond to each individual point:

1) Its always upsetting when someone claims something as a Manga Fact, because if we both believed it were a Manga Fact we wouldn't be having this argument. Instead of just telling me its a Manga Fact and hoping I believe you, show a scan from the Manga and how it relates to your point. But in regards to how one can increase ones Yin and Yang Energies. Naruto from PT2 has a larger Chakra reserve than Naruto from PT1, Chakra is formed from Yin and Yang Energies mixed together. Therefore Naruto increased his amount of Yin and Yang energies between PT1 and PT2. This is true for Kakashi and alot of other ninjas. But the reverse is also true, Hiruzens amount of Chakra also decreased from his Prime to PT1. This is because although his Yin may have increased his Yang decreased substantially as his body aged and grew weaker. If I am right and one can gain and lose Yin and Yang energies overtime then your assumption is wrong, if I am wrong you must explain how Naruto gained chakra from PT1 to PT2 and how Hiruzen lost Chakra from his prime to PT1.

2) What I am saying when I say Hashirama has Sage mode is that it disproves your argument, because as I explained Sage mode requires alot of both Yin and Yang energies. You admit that, but dance around it by saying he is special. Well how is that fair? How many Senju are there that I can use in this argument? other than Tobirama and Tsunade there are no other Senju. All I am saying is that merely dismissing it as this person is special or that person doesn't count marginalizes the discussion.

3) Three things about your third argument:

• This is speculative, the Sage could have divided his Yin and Yang by 70% and 30%, o 60/40, even 80/20. And since the ratio of which is never discussed one cannot claim what you are claiming.
• The second point is that we underestimate how strong the Sage is. Even if he did split it by 90% and 10%, 10% of the Sages Yang Energies is easily more than that of the average ninja.
• Near his death was when the Sage divided the Juubi's Chakra into the tailed beasts and afterwards sealed the Juubi's body in the moon which he created. This would require huge amounts of Chakra as not even Nagato could create the moon with Chibaku Tensei. So the question is, if he had already given all of his Chakra to his 2 Sons at this time... Then where did he get the chakra to pull this off?

4) The rue of your argument comes from the line stating that the bloodlines were "Thinned" overtime. Your misinterpreting this. When they say the bloodlines were thinned they mean that there was fraternizing outside of the clan (Much like Hashirama Senju and Mito Uzumaki). And thus the bloodline because less and less pure. Now if this is the case, then even in the worst case scenario the Yang of the Senju, vice versa for the Uchiha, wouldnt fall below that of the average ninja. There would be no reason for it to do that, because the Average ninja stems from the average person, and the average person is what thinned the Senju. Example:

Senju + Senju = Senju

Average Person + Average Person = Average Ninja

Senju + Average Person = Below Average Ninja?

How is that possible?

Now your last statement I really liked:

"
- I'm stating that Stamina is not physical energy (only)
- I'm stating that Chakra is not lifeforce (only)
- I'm stating that Uchiha/Senju Clan don't hold high chakra/stamina"

1) Elaborate on what you call Physical Energy, and the difference between it and Stamina.
2) This is arguable, because when one runs out of Chakra they die, on top of that Uzumaki who are known for large amounts of life force have consistantly shown feats that require large amounts of chakra reserves. But again Elaborate on the difference betwewen life force and chakra.
3) I can get behind this, It just depends on what you mean? Do you they have godly amounts of chakra, ofcourse not. Do they have higher chakra reserves than the average ninja, ofcourse they do.

kurama "explaining" why naruto couldnt use sage mode before:

You must be registered for see links

naruto being teached about sage mode (including the ratio's of spiritual and physical energies!)

You must be registered for see links

as we know naruto has yang energy kurama.. he did get the yin energy from minato's kurama but that does not seem to be the deciding factor because kishi wanted to bullshit us.

how is he bullshitting us with this "because i didn't want you to use it" story?

Spoiler

kurama said it was because he was angry too.. if you go back there in the manga, you can see that naruto let himself be stabbed.. he didnt even try to dodge nor did he react surprised when it hit him.

You must be registered for see links

so out of this, we can conclude that anyone with yang energy, can generate yin energy.

narutoverse = raped by deciding that, naruto getting the yin making KSM possible, would somehow be a bad thing.

How does the above show that if you have Yang Energies you can create Yin energies effortlessly?

your forgetting that, since kurama "explained" why naruto wasnt capable of using kyuubi sage mode, yin - yang energy should be looked at diffrent.. it seems that if you have yang, you can now create yin chakra effordlessly.

 

[Thorium]

Spoiler

Thanks for posting it. That's exactly what I mean when I talk about Lifeforce/Yang energy.

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The Vitality, the Physical Energy, is the basis of the Yang Energy.

Shodaime's Mokuton style is greatly affected by Yang energy, that's why leaves are born in the wood he creates, just like Naruto's Yang Energy (or I should say Kurama, for the sake of clearification).

The reason of why Yamato has the Kekkei Genkai but not as much Yang Energy it's because he is just like a clone of Hashirama. The thing about Naruto affecting Mokuton style is the same thing happened when Naruto in KCM defeated the Zetsus in the war (who in fact are harvested cells of Hashirama, again).

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The common vertex between Zetsus and Yamato is that both were originally created from the Shodaime cells.

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If lifeforce were just chakra, every person who killed Zetsus would awake these leaves on Zetsus or in Yamato's Mokuton. The thing is, only Naruto with his Yang Energy did.

PS:

Sorry, I forgot to mention about Mokuton and Healing abilities...

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Tsunade created Medical ninjutsu from the knowledge about his grandfather's techniques, but he could use healing abilities without forming seals... that reminds me he has tremendous lifeforce. That's the direct relationship between healing abilities, and the life breathen from his mokuton techniques.



I'll ask you for the source of where is it said.

I concede my earlier arguments. I believe you are correct in your hypothesis.

 

[Mr Hiru]

As always it is a pleasure to be debating with you Hido, Ill respond to each individual point:

1) Its always upsetting when someone claims something as a Manga Fact, because if we both believed it were a Manga Fact we wouldn't be having this argument. Instead of just telling me its a Manga Fact and hoping I believe you, show a scan from the Manga and how it relates to your point. But in regards to how one can increase ones Yin and Yang Energies. Naruto from PT2 has a larger Chakra reserve than Naruto from PT1, Chakra is formed from Yin and Yang Energies mixed together. Therefore Naruto increased his amount of Yin and Yang energies between PT1 and PT2. This is true for Kakashi and alot of other ninjas. But the reverse is also true, Hiruzens amount of Chakra also decreased from his Prime to PT1. This is because although his Yin may have increased his Yang decreased substantially as his body aged and grew weaker. If I am right and one can gain and lose Yin and Yang energies overtime then your assumption is wrong, if I am wrong you must explain how Naruto gained chakra from PT1 to PT2 and how Hiruzen lost Chakra from his prime to PT1.

I totally agree with this, but I can't understand what's wrong with my point and what's the relationship between my point and these statements, that from my part, I find they wield sense.

The only thing I can tell you about my previous points, is that I was talking about proportions, not quantity. Until now, neither Naruto or Hizuren have lost the proportions of their own Yin and Yang Energies.

5 Yin / 5 Yang = 10 Yin / 10 Yang. It doesn't matter if you're young or old, if you have gained or lost each type of energy. The proportions are the object of matter. Uchihas wield very special chakra compared to other clans because their proportions are far more inclined to Yin Energy. I hope this clearify again my point, since this entire paragraph you're putting is quite true.

2) What I am saying when I say Hashirama has Sage mode is that it disproves your argument, because as I explained Sage mode requires alot of both Yin and Yang energies. You admit that, but dance around it by saying he is special. Well how is that fair? How many Senju are there that I can use in this argument? other than Tobirama and Tsunade there are no other Senju. All I am saying is that merely dismissing it as this person is special or that person doesn't count marginalizes the discussion.

Generalization is not a safe way of argumenting. What I said is that he wields way more chakra than other Senju clan members. How else could he been considered the strongest in his own clan, to be named leader?

If a common Senju clan member wielded 90 Yang and 10 Yin, but Hashirama wields 270 Yang units and 30 Yin, the proportion holds, but Hashirama would hold the triple of the average chakra among members of his clan, so he could use 30 Yin + 30 Yang + 30 Shizen to awake Sage Mode in a proportion of 30-30-30. I don't see the mistake on this, that's just chakra control. Now, imagine the case of a Hashirama that inherited tremendous Yang Energy, but proportions are equal to his own clan members, so much that he was able to make leaves growth from his Mokuton.

This is the case:

Common Senju Clan Member: 90 Yang Units, 10 Yin Units
Hashirama: 450 Yang Units, 50 Yin Units.

Proportion of all Senju Clan Members: 90 : 10 (9 : 1)

The aritmetic would say that that the Senju clan member would wield only 10 chakra units full of Yang Energy, while Hashirama would wield 50 chakra units (high chakra reserves), but the quantity of Yang Energy per chakra unit would be equal (of course, we know Hashirama wields even more yang energy).

Under this basis, we can safelly say that Hashirama had much more chakra, enough to awake Sage Mode, even having more Yang Energy than his Yin Energy. He is the God of Shinobi after all.

3) Three things about your third argument:

• This is speculative, the Sage could have divided his Yin and Yang by 70% and 30%, o 60/40, even 80/20. And since the ratio of which is never discussed one cannot claim what you are claiming.
• The second point is that we underestimate how strong the Sage is. Even if he did split it by 90% and 10%, 10% of the Sages Yang Energies is easily more than that of the average ninja.
• Near his death was when the Sage divided the Juubi's Chakra into the tailed beasts and afterwards sealed the Juubi's body in the moon which he created. This would require huge amounts of Chakra as not even Nagato could create the moon with Chibaku Tensei. So the question is, if he had already given all of his Chakra to his 2 Sons at this time... Then where did he get the chakra to pull this off?

The answer relies in logic. Your points are valid of course, but we must consider two factors that are of vital importance in this matter:

• What happens when members of the Senju clan have descendants with No-Senju clan members (specifically with Yin and Yang Energy). My hypothesis is that (as manga said their bloodline thinned) the proportion of Yin and Yang Energy changed (balanced), and their quantity was reduced, so the ratio became nearer to 50/50, and at same time the quantity was reduced, reason of why shinobi became weaker and weaker when generations passed down, and why the lifeforce on mokuton element was so reduced (instancing Yamato), or why Tsunade didn't held his grandfather technique of healing without seals.
• My point doesn't talk about quantity, it talks about proportions. So it doesn't matter if he created his sons with the 100% of the total of his chakra, or with the 5%. The thing is how is the spiritual / physical energy distributed in this 5% of chakra.

4) The rue of your argument comes from the line stating that the bloodlines were "Thinned" overtime. Your misinterpreting this. When they say the bloodlines were thinned they mean that there was fraternizing outside of the clan (Much like Hashirama Senju and Mito Uzumaki). And thus the bloodline because less and less pure. Now if this is the case, then even in the worst case scenario the Yang of the Senju, vice versa for the Uchiha, wouldnt fall below that of the average ninja. There would be no reason for it to do that, because the Average ninja stems from the average person, and the average person is what thinned the Senju. Example:

Senju + Senju = Senju

Average Person + Average Person = Average Ninja

Senju + Average Person = Below Average Ninja?

How is that possible?

Proportions, again.

The Senju had to have much more chakra than an average shinobi? I don't know, I just know it helds way more Yang Energy.

Senju: 90 / 10 (Ratio - 9:1)
Average: 30 / 30 (Ratio - 1:1)

Result: 60 / 20 (Ratio - 3:1)

The bloodline thinned? Yes, it did. The result is a shinobi who has the double of the amount of chakra that had the Senju progenitor (the two-third part of what his Average progenitor had), and the third part of Yang Energy his Senju progenitor had. In terms of Physical energy, it holds two times the quantity of Physical Energy its Average Progenitor had. It makes sense.

Now your last statement I really liked:

"
- I'm stating that Stamina is not physical energy (only)
- I'm stating that Chakra is not lifeforce (only)
- I'm stating that Uchiha/Senju Clan don't hold high chakra/stamina"

1) Elaborate on what you call Physical Energy, and the difference between it and Stamina.
2) This is arguable, because when one runs out of Chakra they die, on top of that Uzumaki who are known for large amounts of life force have consistantly shown feats that require large amounts of chakra reserves. But again Elaborate on the difference betwewen life force and chakra.
3) I can get behind this, It just depends on what you mean? Do you they have godly amounts of chakra, ofcourse not. Do they have higher chakra reserves than the average ninja, ofcourse they do.

1) Hard question, but not impossible to answer. Physical Energy (under what I understand) is the energy wielded by Shinobi, who defines the quantity of vitality held in his/her body... health if you want to call it simple. It is naturally held at DNA level, and it can be reforced basically taking care of your body.

To define stamina, first I need to define Spiritual Energy. Spiritual Energy is the energy you need to project any form from your mind in reality, it is vital to perform illusory techniques. This kind of energy can be trained, it needs experience and training.

Stamina is the one of the results of the both mentioned energies. It is the quantity of resistance a body has to stress itself under continuous excercise. High quantities of both Yin and Yang Energies let its user holds Stamina OR chakra. In part 1 it was stated by Genma that Naruto had tremendous stamina after he defeated Neji, and by Kakashi that he wielded tremendous chakra when he was doing the Tree climbing training.

The explanation in general terms about Physical and Spiritual Energy is explained here:

You must be registered for see images

And about the Relationship between Stamina, Chakra, Spiritual and Physical Energy is here (both Chakra and Stamina shares the same source):

You must be registered for see images

2) Putting it simple... There were people who didn't have chakra before the Sage's era, but they were still alive. If the Uzumaki had great quantity of chakra, using 1 + 1 we could deduce they held high lifeforce (yang) energy and high spiritual energy (yin).

Chakra = Spiritual + Physical Energy, after all.

You must be registered for see images

And well, if the Uzumaki were distant blood relatives to the Senju, we could even argue if the Uzumaki were balanced or held more Yang than Yin energy, but the fact remains that they had high lifeforce, one of the basis of the Yang Energy. It is not proven that the Uzumaki held tremendous chakra reserves, that's only the case of Naruto as far as I know.

3) There are really few ninjas who held high quantities of chakra in Narutoverse, to tell the truth. The point in this thread is that there are too few cases of these clans having large amounts of chakra. As it's already proven that the source of chakra and stamina is the same (yin and yang energy), I can safely ask why did Obito obtained so much body strength and chakra reserves to manipulate 6 bijuus and the Mazou in the war, when time before in the Chuunin Exams he lost against Gai. In the other hand... why did Sasuke get tired so fast after using his Susano'o, if he had the Kyuubi Cloak for some minutes?

As far as I can say, it seems the Uchiha didn't have that much stamina. If they had tremendous Yin powers, they lacks the Yang needed to have that much resistance. Then again, it's hard to determine if Sasuke has much more chakra than other ninja, because the power of 1 unit of his special chakra could do the damage of 3 units of normal chakra of other ninja. Does that makes Sasuke have 3 units of chakra? No, he still makes use of 1 unit of his chakra, but thanks to his spiritual powers, he makes a super efficient use of his chakra. That's the meaning of the high quality chakra on the elder son's branch.

Talking about food... I buy 100 USD on cheap batteries of 12 V, you buy 100 USD on high quality batteries of 24 V. Whose batteries have better performance? Yours. Whose batteries will endure more time? Mine.

That's just the comparison of an average ninja vs a ninja with excess of yin or yang chakra.

I concede my earlier arguments. I believe you are correct in your hypothesis.

Thank you, sir. But I have to emphatize your so well applied word in this case: I may be wrong after all.

 

[SIR HERDERP PRESIDERP SDO]

I repeat myself

Why do you keep quoting yourself all the time? that's a bad habit you know Lol

 

[Mr Hiru]

Why do you keep quoting yourself all the time? that's a bad habit you know Lol

I don't have options when people didn't get what I said earlier. Now, if you have a better idea, you could give some advices instead of just giving the criticism so I can improve, please?

 

[FearxDeath]

Spoiler

I totally agree with this, but I can't understand what's wrong with my point and what's the relationship between my point and these statements, that from my part, I find they wield sense.

The only thing I can tell you about my previous points, is that I was talking about proportions, not quantity. Until now, neither Naruto or Hizuren have lost the proportions of their own Yin and Yang Energies.

5 Yin / 5 Yang = 10 Yin / 10 Yang. It doesn't matter if you're young or old, if you have gained or lost each type of energy. The proportions are the object of matter. Uchihas wield very special chakra compared to other clans because their proportions are far more inclined to Yin Energy. I hope this clearify again my point, since this entire paragraph you're putting is quite true.



Generalization is not a safe way of argumenting. What I said is that he wields way more chakra than other Senju clan members. How else could he been considered the strongest in his own clan, to be named leader?

If a common Senju clan member wielded 90 Yang and 10 Yin, but Hashirama wields 270 Yang units and 30 Yin, the proportion holds, but Hashirama would hold the triple of the average chakra among members of his clan, so he could use 30 Yin + 30 Yang + 30 Shizen to awake Sage Mode in a proportion of 30-30-30. I don't see the mistake on this, that's just chakra control. Now, imagine the case of a Hashirama that inherited tremendous Yang Energy, but proportions are equal to his own clan members, so much that he was able to make leaves growth from his Mokuton.

This is the case:

Common Senju Clan Member: 90 Yang Units, 10 Yin Units
Hashirama: 450 Yang Units, 50 Yin Units.

Proportion of all Senju Clan Members: 90 : 10 (9 : 1)

The aritmetic would say that that the Senju clan member would wield only 10 chakra units full of Yang Energy, while Hashirama would wield 50 chakra units (high chakra reserves), but the quantity of Yang Energy per chakra unit would be equal (of course, we know Hashirama wields even more yang energy).

Under this basis, we can safelly say that Hashirama had much more chakra, enough to awake Sage Mode, even having more Yang Energy than his Yin Energy. He is the God of Shinobi after all.



The answer relies in logic. Your points are valid of course, but we must consider two factors that are of vital importance in this matter:

• What happens when members of the Senju clan have descendants with No-Senju clan members (specifically with Yin and Yang Energy). My hypothesis is that (as manga said their bloodline thinned) the proportion of Yin and Yang Energy changed (balanced), and their quantity was reduced, so the ratio became nearer to 50/50, and at same time the quantity was reduced, reason of why shinobi became weaker and weaker when generations passed down, and why the lifeforce on mokuton element was so reduced (instancing Yamato), or why Tsunade didn't held his grandfather technique of healing without seals.
• My point doesn't talk about quantity, it talks about proportions. So it doesn't matter if he created his sons with the 100% of the total of his chakra, or with the 5%. The thing is how is the spiritual / physical energy distributed in this 5% of chakra.

Proportions, again.

The Senju had to have much more chakra than an average shinobi? I don't know, I just know it helds way more Yang Energy.

Senju: 90 / 10 (Ratio - 9:1)
Average: 30 / 30 (Ratio - 1:1)

Result: 60 / 20 (Ratio - 3:1)

The bloodline thinned? Yes, it did. The result is a shinobi who has the double of the amount of chakra that had the Senju progenitor (the two-third part of what his Average progenitor had), and the third part of Yang Energy his Senju progenitor had. In terms of Physical energy, it holds two times the quantity of Physical Energy its Average Progenitor had. It makes sense.



1) Hard question, but not impossible to answer. Physical Energy (under what I understand) is the energy wielded by Shinobi, who defines the quantity of vitality held in his/her body... health if you want to call it simple. It is naturally held at DNA level, and it can be reforced basically taking care of your body.

To define stamina, first I need to define Spiritual Energy. Spiritual Energy is the energy you need to project any form from your mind in reality, it is vital to perform illusory techniques. This kind of energy can be trained, it needs experience and training.

Stamina is the one of the results of the both mentioned energies. It is the quantity of resistance a body has to stress itself under continuous excercise. High quantities of both Yin and Yang Energies let its user holds Stamina OR chakra. In part 1 it was stated by Genma that Naruto had tremendous stamina after he defeated Neji, and by Kakashi that he wielded tremendous chakra when he was doing the Tree climbing training.

The explanation in general terms about Physical and Spiritual Energy is explained here:

You must be registered for see images

And about the Relationship between Stamina, Chakra, Spiritual and Physical Energy is here (both Chakra and Stamina shares the same source):

You must be registered for see images

2) Putting it simple... There were people who didn't have chakra before the Sage's era, but they were still alive. If the Uzumaki had great quantity of chakra, using 1 + 1 we could deduce they held high lifeforce (yang) energy and high spiritual energy (yin).

Chakra = Spiritual + Physical Energy, after all.

You must be registered for see images

And well, if the Uzumaki were distant blood relatives to the Senju, we could even argue if the Uzumaki were balanced or held more Yang than Yin energy, but the fact remains that they had high lifeforce, one of the basis of the Yang Energy. It is not proven that the Uzumaki held tremendous chakra reserves, that's only the case of Naruto as far as I know.

3) There are really few ninjas who held high quantities of chakra in Narutoverse, to tell the truth. The point in this thread is that there are too few cases of these clans having large amounts of chakra. As it's already proven that the source of chakra and stamina is the same (yin and yang energy), I can safely ask why did Obito obtained so much body strength and chakra reserves to manipulate 6 bijuus and the Mazou in the war, when time before in the Chuunin Exams he lost against Gai. In the other hand... why did Sasuke get tired so fast after using his Susano'o, if he had the Kyuubi Cloak for some minutes?

As far as I can say, it seems the Uchiha didn't have that much stamina. If they had tremendous Yin powers, they lacks the Yang needed to have that much resistance. Then again, it's hard to determine if Sasuke has much more chakra than other ninja, because the power of 1 unit of his special chakra could do the damage of 3 units of normal chakra of other ninja. Does that makes Sasuke have 3 units of chakra? No, he still makes use of 1 unit of his chakra, but thanks to his spiritual powers, he makes a super efficient use of his chakra. That's the meaning of the high quality chakra on the elder son's branch.

Talking about food... I buy 100 USD on cheap batteries of 12 V, you buy 100 USD on high quality batteries of 24 V. Whose batteries have better performance? Yours. Whose batteries will endure more time? Mine.

That's just the comparison of an average ninja vs a ninja with excess of yin or yang chakra.



Thank you, sir. But I have to emphatize your so well applied word in this case: I may be wrong after all.

I wanted to address alot of things you said but I feel that this conversation has digressed into something confusing and offtrack. Let me address what I was replying to and attempt to get back on the rails.

I have read a lot of times in the base that the members of these clans have tremendous chakra reserves.

Please, I'd like you state how and why do you think that, and from where did you get this information.

Thanks.

Now the bolded part is the point of contension. Now "Tremendous" chakra reserves is extremely vague, because how much is "Tremendous?". And I believe this is where the confusion took place. So let me ask you to clarify real quick so I know what you meant.

Were you saying:

1) "Not everyone in the Senju/Uchiha Clans had Chakra Reserves equal to that of Naruto, Jiraiya or Kisame [The Tailless Tailed Beast]"

-or-

2) "Not everyone in the Senju/Uchiha Clans had Chakra Reserves equal to that of Kakashi"

Because if you are saying the first point then ofcourse I agree, I dont think every Senju or Uchiha possessed chakra reserves that large. But I do think they all posessed chakra reservse equal to that of Kakashi's. Which is fairly large compared to that of the Average ninja, but not that much when compared to people like Naruto or Hashirama.

I believe my first mistake was assuming you meant the 2nd point which is what I have been arguing against.

 

[Mr Hiru]

I wanted to address alot of things you said but I feel that this conversation has digressed into something confusing and offtrack. Let me address what I was replying to and attempt to get back on the rails.



Now the bolded part is the point of contension. Now "Tremendous" chakra reserves is extremely vague, because how much is "Tremendous?". And I believe this is where the confusion took place. So let me ask you to clarify real quick so I know what you meant.

Were you saying:

1) "Not everyone in the Senju/Uchiha Clans had Chakra Reserves equal to that of Naruto, Jiraiya or Kisame [The Tailless Tailed Beast]"

-or-

2) "Not everyone in the Senju/Uchiha Clans had Chakra Reserves equal to that of Kakashi"

Because if you are saying the first point then ofcourse I agree, I dont think every Senju or Uchiha possessed chakra reserves that large. But I do think they all posessed chakra reservse equal to that of Kakashi's. Which is fairly large compared to that of the Average ninja, but not that much when compared to people like Naruto or Hashirama.

I believe my first mistake was assuming you meant the 2nd point which is what I have been arguing against.

Precisely the first one XD.

PS: I have to note that we must take in account the potential to grow of every ninja, and the quality factor. As I mentioned earlier, in the case of the Uchiha, if a uchiha fire jutsu wins against a common ninja fire jutsu, that doesn't mean the uchiha has more chakra, it only means his chakra is more powerful.

 

[FearxDeath]

Precisely the first one XD.

PS: I have to note that we must take in account the potential to grow of every ninja, and the quality factor. As I mentioned earlier, in the case of the Uchiha, if a uchiha fire jutsu wins against a common ninja fire jutsu, that doesn't mean the uchiha has more chakra, it only means his chakra is more powerful.

After your last response I felt that this might be the reason. One question though:

What was your response to my argument that one can gain and lose Yin and Yang energies, thus increasing or losing chakra reserves, with time.

Let us assume a Senju was born with less Yin energies, through experience and training he could drastically increase it to levels equal to if not higher than those of an Uchiha. If this is true then this could definately contribute to what made the Senju to powerful. From childhood Senju clan members were raised to be ninja's, they were trained to be physically strong and mentality strong as well. Which would result in larger chakra reserves, which in turn would make jutsu easier. Because as Ebisu said the more chakra you have the less chakra control you need to perform a technique.

 

[Mr Hiru]

After your last response I felt that this might be the reason. One question though:

What was your response to my argument that one can gain and lose Yin and Yang energies, thus increasing or losing chakra reserves, with time.

Let us assume a Senju was born with less Yin energies, through experience and training he could drastically increase it to levels equal to if not higher than those of an Uchiha. If this is true then this could definately contribute to what made the Senju to powerful. From childhood Senju clan members were raised to be ninja's, they were trained to be physically strong and mentality strong as well. Which would result in larger chakra reserves, which in turn would make jutsu easier. Because as Ebisu said the more chakra you have the less chakra control you need to perform a technique.

He had to develop, continuous training. His/her own potential had to be related as well.

I think this is the most sound reasoning I can give. Naruto held great chakra reserves only being a kid, not because of training, but because he was born with the potential. With training and self-care, he was able to make a more efficient use of this chakra, and his own reserves increased.

Of course, your paragraph takes in account an assumption: Every Senju was raised from a kid both physically AND mentally. Even Uchihas could be raised this way.

 

[TimBone]

It's the Uzumaki who are born with high chakra reserves, not the Senju or Uchiha. Nobody said the Senju and Uchiha have high chakra reserves.

 

[FearxDeath]

He had to develop, continuous training. His/her own potential had to be related as well.

I think this is the most sound reasoning I can give. Naruto held great chakra reserves only being a kid, not because of training, but because he was born with the potential. With training and self-care, he was able to make a more efficient use of this chakra, and his own reserves increased.

Of course, your paragraph takes in account an assumption: Every Senju was raised from a kid both physically AND mentally. Even Uchihas could be raised this way.

Wait wait wait, lets not disgress into double talking here lol.

Chakra = Yin Energies + Yang Energies.

So what you are saying is that Naruto was born with high levels of Chakra, and no matter what had happened, whether he never became a ninja, whether he never had a single fight in his life, he would always have this outlandish amount of Chakra?

 

[Mr Hiru]

Wait wait wait, lets not disgress into double talking here lol.

Chakra = Yin Energies + Yang Energies.

So what you are saying is that Naruto was born with high levels of Chakra, and no matter what had happened, whether he never became a ninja, whether he never had a single fight in his life, he would always have this outlandish amount of Chakra?

No. What I said is that he could develop his potential with better results than an average shinobi, given a certain amount efforts (both average shinobi and Naruto trains 2 hours a day, for instance, would give 1 yin and 1 yang to the average shinobi, while Naruto would get 3 yin and 3 yang).