Its true when you account for his intelligence he still has much to be desired, dat kamui tho.
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what level is 14 old obito ?
- Thread starter Klad
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Gold Lightning
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Blaze Release
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Exactly and that is why i said if you restrict kamui obito would be manhandled in a CQC fight or any range for that matter. Kid Gai and Kakashi has already beaten him without kamui. The fight between kakashi and obito in kamui dimension was basically both of them in base by that i mean 3 tomoe. Obito's kamui was made redundant and so was kakashi. In the end kakshi prevailed because he has a stronger base than obito. At the same time, all the other well known uchiha's, madara, itachi and sasuke are all stronger in base than base obito, hype and feats suggests this.
Dunno what you mean by 'all'. The only uchiha forbidden techniques we know of are izanami and izanagi. But you are forgetting something. First is that during that time its arguable whether obito had 2 eyes or 1. He had given one to kakashi, therefore he had one left. We do not know if madara transplanted his sharingan into obito, after all he is his partner or if he died with his sharingan. Logic says he would give it to obito, but there is no scan showing this and obito's stock sharingan is something he gained after the uchiha massacre so he had no other possible access to other sharingans.
What i am saying is that while its stated that, madara taught him uchiha kinjutsu, its arguable whether obito can truly use izanagi. By that i mean whether he had a second eye to make use of izanagi or whether he would sacrifice his precious kamui.
Next thing, there are 2 forms of izanagi. The complete one and the incomplete one. The complete with is for those who have mastered hashirama's dna while the incomplete one is for uchiha's without this dna or people who haven't mastered hashirama's dna. The complete version grants a considerable to time for izanagi, the incomplete version gives the user 60 seconds an eye, for izanagi.
What i am trying to say is that if we are to add izanagi to 17 year old obito's arsenal, whether at that time he had mastered hashirama's dna (which is no small feat) to make use of the complete version or the incomplete version. At the time its heavy suggested that he was still adjusting to his new body.
Dunno about enhanced strength. Yes obito has enhanced strength but again you seem to be recognizing part 2 ms obito with 17 year old obito. Yes part 2 ms obito managed to block zabuza's sword, but that is after experience with his new body. 17 year old obito was still adjusting and this is his so called strength at that age
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Tbh im not the type to get into any tier discussion with as my motor is if its not in the manga or DB its irrelevant and any tier discussion is fan fiction made by viewers, not the one to waste too much time on something like that. What i will say is this however, the few times i have seen tier list majority fluctuate the tiers with people giving demi god states to hashirama/madara and what not.
My list is something like. High kage - hash, mads, naruto, nagato, etc
Mid kage. Itachi, sasuke, minato, bee, etc
Low kage. Tsunade, Mei, etc.
So from my list ms obito especially at 17 is no where near high kage. He is low kage along with Tsunade, Mei, etc and tbh that is a stretch.
Its nice you spoke of speed in order to defeat obito because that is something i want to address. Members seem to think only but a handful of shinobi's, noticeable the one's recognised for their speed are the one's that can defeat obito which is false.
Yes speed helps but we have seen that speed alone will not let you beat him.
Minato failed with speed and he acknowledged it. This was the very first duel in order to grasp the workings of kamui.
Ei failed
Naruto and Gai failed.
The most important tool to defeat obito is a strategy. No allow me to rephrase that, the most important tool to defeat obito, is insight. The ability to recognise how his jutsu works, something that in all of obito's fight his opponents at the very minimum where able to grasp the basics of kamui; Sakura, fu & torune, minato. After grasping his technique, then you formulate a strategy to overcome it using your most noticeable attribute.
All the shinobi's that have managed to wound obito have all followed this pattern. They first gain an understanding kamui. Then form a strategy. Then implement what their good at. No shinobi with only speed will defeat obito.
SO no i do not agree with speed being the most important tool to defeating obito, other tools come before that. On the same note the shinobi that has not only damaged obito the most, but make kamui redundant and for the first time put obito's life at risk was konan, a shinobi who is lacking in speed, but what made her prevail was insight and strategy, which she then implemented her attribute to.
Yes speed helps, but insight and strategy is number 1, something that all those that have wounded obito have relied on first and foremost. There are many shinobi's that either have greater battle experience or smarter in battle than obito, whom are lacking speed but will be able to defeat him after gaining insight and strategy. Many ways including bunshin's something that many shinobi's fall on in need and other deceitful way can overcome obito, but lets not turn this into a vs thread.
Do not get it twisted though there is a difference between understanding something and being able to take this understanding further and make use of it. Just because you have insight and a strategy doesn't mean you will overcome his kamui, example being fu & torune
Again you forget something important. Yes i am looking at obito that saved kakashi, but all i see is zetsu. You seem to forget that all that was zetsu therefore its equally if not more of a zetsu feat than obito. Attributing this feat to obito alone when zetsu was heavily involved makes no sense to me.
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Why you recognise that feat as obito's and neglect zetsu's contribution is beyond me.
It can even be said that obito, the one that activated his sharingan before the rock dropped on him was stronger than this obito who faced the mist shinobi's without zetsu of course. That obito had both his eyes, but more importantly had been active unlike this obito who has been in a vegetable state for a while and was basically regaining his mobility
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Pretty sure MS Obito that fought Minato is high kage level as he can defeat the vast majority of kages and Akatsuki. Restricting Kamui just to make Obito seem weaker than he is isn't correct since it is part of his full power which is used to evaluate one's tier or power level.
Mid to high Kage easily. Minato openly suggested - in a monologue anyway - that Obito's S/T was superior to his own and the only one who would win is the one who strikes a split second earlier. It was a gamble on Minato's part that did him good, not a well-thought out win as far as most strategic wins go.
Obito didn't use any of his high caliber techniques, such as the Katon barrier that withstood Hachibi's punches, nor his Kusari Gama usage, or his highly destructive Katon attack that rivaled Madara. Let's face it, that fight's outcome and Obito lying around like nothing was pure garbage. Typical of a shonen manga outcome.
I'd say mid-kage.
His general skills might not have been very impressive, but most ninja still would not be able to counter Kamui in any way, plus there is this whole Kyuubi's control to add.
1. "Katon barrier", as you put it, was only ever shown to be a defensive jutsu and the fact that Obito didn't even try to use it to catch Naruto or Bee proves it. The jutsu stops anything from entering the barrier, but it doesn't mean it can stop someone INSIDE from escaping it.
2. Katon that rivalled Madara's is cool, but at long range. If you look at the scan where both Obito and Madara use their respective katon techniques, you will see that Obito's flame gets huge only after flying dozens of meters. Proof: When Obito used the very same technique against Kakashi and Guy earlier it was much smaller (because distance was much smaller) and when he fought Kakashi later the distance was so small he didn't even bother to cast it and decided to use a Fireball instead.
Not to mention he wasn't shown using these techniques at the age of 14, so I dunno why we should give them to him.
So yeah, as I said, mid-kage due to Kamui and powerful genjutsu, but nothing that impressive otherwise.
His general skills might not have been very impressive, but most ninja still would not be able to counter Kamui in any way, plus there is this whole Kyuubi's control to add.
Smells like b... lack of truth. He was powerful, alright, but you're overestimating his "high caliber" jutsu.
1. "Katon barrier", as you put it, was only ever shown to be a defensive jutsu and the fact that Obito didn't even try to use it to catch Naruto or Bee proves it. The jutsu stops anything from entering the barrier, but it doesn't mean it can stop someone INSIDE from escaping it.
2. Katon that rivalled Madara's is cool, but at long range. If you look at the scan where both Obito and Madara use their respective katon techniques, you will see that Obito's flame gets huge only after flying dozens of meters. Proof: When Obito used the very same technique against Kakashi and Guy earlier it was much smaller (because distance was much smaller) and when he fought Kakashi later the distance was so small he didn't even bother to cast it and decided to use a Fireball instead.
Not to mention he wasn't shown using these techniques at the age of 14, so I dunno why we should give them to him.
So yeah, as I said, mid-kage due to Kamui and powerful genjutsu, but nothing that impressive otherwise.
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Sacrosanct
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- Kakashi is not at Naruto and Bee's level. That technique should have been used for improvisation, at least.
- I am pretty sure - correct me if I am wrong - but it was not used because it didn't affect Naruto much. After all, he was his main target.
What? That doesn't even make any sense.
Sacrosanct
Active member
Just think of it this way: how would Jiraiya deal with him? Or Hiruzen? His range-induced combination of kamui and mokuton was something fierce, if I'd say so myself.
He's not at Naruto's level, but I'm pretty sure he surpasses Bee. But that's a topic for another time.
It doesn't change anything. Obito was either giving his best against Kakashi or he was stupid enough to underestimate him after already having been at Kakashi's mercy several times. Obito is quite bright, so I highly doubt he wasn't giving his best in that fight.
How didn't the barrier affect Naruto much? I didn't quite catch it. If it works only as a defensive technique, then it couldn't be used against an enemy, only on allies. But if it can be used to trap somebody, then why didn't Obito actually trap anyone with it? All he needs to create the barrier is slam his palm into the ground.
Obito didn't give anything at all. It was just the usual shonen constraints like Naruto and Co wining against Kakuzu.
I was talking about the flame attack, actually not the barrier. Anyhow, it's over 3 am, and I am not going to go into a lengthy debate at the moment. Perhaps tomorrow.
Very likely. But it's such shonen cliche tricks that determine the behavior and strength of manga characters, not the other way around.
So, whether the "outside" reason of Obito using a Fireball instead of that large katon is "shonen contraints" or not doesn't matter. There still has to be an in-universe explanation for that.
If we just assume "that's plot and that's it" then any discussion is pointless, because each of them use arguments taken from inside the manga universe.
A misunderstanding on this one, then. Indeed, let's call it a day.
