Uzumaki is Senju is JUST A THEORY

[Im_not_Osama_bin_laden]

I don't really get any of this. They are the not same but some are distant cousins. Like Tsunade is like a tiny bit Uzumaki.

 

[Joon]

BRO THESE ARE FROM THE MOVIES AND LATER MANGAS BEYOND THOSE CHAPTERS

YOU LITERALLY CANNOT REFUTE THE MORE FLESHED OUT INFO!

You are not providing information related to the subject. You are just spouting stuff unrelated. What does Toneri, Sage Mode, and Kurama Chakra Mode has to do with "Uzumaki is Senju'?

Who dictated Asura was their common ancestor? More speculation on your part there.

Honestly, get me a manga fact that actually said that they are Senju's bloodline

I told you that was speculation, but before that I also told you it was stated they were "Distant Blood Relative" though there was not clarification on what capacity.

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NAGATO is said to be of Senju bloodline.. NAGATO. Not the entire clan of UZUMAKI.



Get that in your head!

I provide you scans in the manga were it pointed to his Uzumaki linelage. WHERE DOES IT SAY THAT IN THE MANGA?

You are making stuff up.

Your argument is as simple as me going on about: "Naruto is Namikaze" = Uzumaki is of Namikaze lineage.

Naruto has no red trait hair, does that make him no longer Uzumaki?

where's your logic there?

Just because he didn't have red hair doesn't make Naruto Uzumaki. I thought that was obvious in the Manga that Naruto is Uzumaki. [Naruto Chapter 501 page 11, Naruto Chapter 662 page 14]

NAGATO IS NOT THE ENTIRE CLAN

where are you getting your facts from? From these 2 panels? Because NAGATO is said to be Senju and that Senju are relatives of Uzumaki?

Again, point to where it says Nagato is of Senju blood?

Nowhere there is it stated that Uzumakis are branch of Senju. Nowhere there does it say that their common ancestry is Asura and not Kaguya or the 2 brothers.

You are right. But I NEVER said Uzumaki was a branch of Senju. Regarding their common ancestry, I was only speculating. I told you that.

YOURE GRASPING FOR STRAWS!

You're taking something speculated then stating it as FACTS?! HOW DUMB CAN YOU BE?

pretty sure that anyone with half a brain can tell you Nagato isn't a representative of the entire Uzumaki clan.
pretty sure that anyone can tell you that Uzumaki and Senju being relatives isn't PROOF that Uzumakis are Senju descendants.


SO WHERE ARE YOUR FACTS?!

I am not grasping at straws, you are.

Red: They are descendants, but couldn't not be "direct" descendants or else Hashirama and Mito would be brother or sister.

"not disproving"

I'm pretty sure that I've called you out numerous times about you grasping for straws. Making conclusion out of your ass.

Conditions to make to prove your theory as fact:

Strong evidence of Senju traits on Uzumaki.

1) Parallel abilities
2) symbolism
3) direct quotes
4) multiple similarities from other characters


YOU HAVE ONE! THAT IS NAGATO

YOU HAVE NOTHING BUT SPECULATION ON WHERE THE ANCESTRY LIES FROM.

You have nothing that ties Uzumaki with Senju traits.

You have NOTHING to disprove my claims.


Unlike you, I don't say "I have facts" I am transparent that my theory is a theory.

You and salamander on the other hand, use CAUSATION FALLACY to try to prove your case.


FACTS DO NOT NEED SPECULATION

FACT #1: NAGATO IS SENJU
FACT #2: UZUMAKI AND SENJU ARE RELATED
FACT #3: NARUTO IS ASURA TRANSMIGRANT

FACT: UZUMAKI IS NOT NAGATO
SPECULATION: UZUMAKI IS FROM SENJU LINE

FACT: THERE ARE NO MORE REMAINING SENJU
FACT: ASURA MOVED TO UZUMAKI
SPECULATION: ASURA ONLY MOVES WITH THE ONE OF SENJU LINEAGE


These are facts that help your THEORY.

NOT A FACT: UZUMAKI IS SENJU DESCENDANTS FROM ASURA'S LINEAGE

where does it say that in the manga or the movies?



THEORY: UZUMAKI IS SENJU DESCENDENT

NOT A FACT: UZUMAKI IS SENJU DESCENDENT

STOP STATING YOUR THEORY IS A FACT WHEN YOU USE SPECULATION TO MAKE IT PLAUSIBLE. IT'S JUST A THEORY AND NOT A FACT.

That doesn't make you theory as fact. You are just making assumptions. You have to back your statements up with Manga scans. Manga is LAW. You CANNOT change what the Manga says.

 

[wanderingcactus]

Hold on a minute who said Hamura is Yang and Hogaromo is Yin? Where have we gone to with this?

did you not pay attention? it's explicitly shown.

Spoiler: deduction

Yin has Rinnegan and Sage Mode, Yang has Tenseigan and Chakra Mode.
yin being eyes, yang being body.

You can see it with Momoshiki and Kinshiki. Isshiki and Kaguya. Hagoromo and Hamura. Indra and Asura.
Hell, it even is stated by Tobirama of the whole notion of putting chakra in your mind, which gets reflected in the eyes turning them into sharingan.

Spoiler: Mind Chakra

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Spoiler: Indra (eye) Asura (body)

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Spoiler: Hagoromo (eyes) Hamura (body) ~ yes, he doesn't have Tenseigan here

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Spoiler: Momoshiki (rinnegan) and Kinshiki (chakra armaments, similar to chakra chains)

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Spoiler: Chakra System

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Spoiler: Yin and Yang

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Chakra being put into the brain makes Sharingan.


Yin is Spiritual (mental) Energy or Imagination or Brain Power (Which is why it's called Mind's Eye with the doujutsu)
Yang is Physical Energy or Reality or Body Strength

Spoiler: Reasons why Hagoromo is Yin

1) Rinnegan
Having a doujutsu before Hamura means that he is Yin. As Yin uses Spiritual Energy, which is reliant on mental powers. You know genjutsu, etc. Things about the brain.

2) Sage Mode

While this is the body, this implies the Yang Within the Yin.
NOTE: Sage Mode has always been on the head

Spoiler: Forehead Yin Sage Mode

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Moreover, Hagoromo is DARK while Hamura is LIGHT.
These attributes come from the definition of Yin and Yang.


Sun and Moon? Yeah, those are the WITHIN attributes.

Sun because Yang within Yin
Moon because Yin within Yang

Yes, to the seal allowing mixing of chakra, nobody said the fuinn jutsu didn't allow it. However, how does that make it the same as Toneri's? That is the question.

That's the point. We don't know the nature of it. The closest one we know is Naruto's. He has Uzumaki chakra genes (like Kushina's chains) and we later find out that Kinshiki uses them too.

This is the whole reason why Uzumaki is more likely to be a Yang member (Hamura's) than Yin (Hagoromo).
The Senju are dark affinity as well. (Sage Mode markings are black)
Just take a look at the Karmas.
Kawaki and Boruto have them as tattoos.
Hell, Black Zetsu has it in his name even.

They do not glow.

Naruto got it from Kurama chakra via fuinn, yes. Asura had his own vain his own chakra or being granted power from Hogaromo. How I don't know how any of that correlates to it being A Hamura thing, when you have Asura (Hogaromo's son) with it?

The most educated guess that I can think of was Ninshu. Asura is the guy that uses it while his brother, Indra, uses ninjutsu.
We don't really see any Senjus use this technique neither (well, we've only seen Hashirama but he didn't use the Avatar and used the wooden statue where he should've been able to use the Avatar as he is a transmigrant. Naruto can)

Spoiler: ninshu

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Some Uzumaki fuinjutsu hints.. IDK this might be used for that case. Then again, this was at the time where there is only one RS instead of 2.

So I'd say outdated but it can still be applied if the RS spoken of is Hamura and not Hagormo (although it is shown that it is Naruto RS, which means Hagoromo)

So that merely falls under speculation since we really can't say anything about it now because the RS plot (where Naruto becomes 2nd coming of RS) is retconned.

For Toneri, this is merely just Chakra Mode and nothing special like Ninshu. (although we cannot be sure whether or not Hamura also taught Ninshu in the moon. I suppose he did because they watched over Earth)

Mitsuki also had this. So that means Naruto's case was just Chakra Mode. Kurama is also using it because of Naruto (Similar to Sasuke and Madara enveloping Kurama with Susanoo. Or Sasuke covering his Susanoo with Sage Mode. Those would be my guesses).

Kushina doesn't have the affinity and the databook is end of series, so it's not outdated. Actually longevity is an Uzumaki trait comes from powerful lifeforce, that doesn't make it a yang trait per se. And since she doesnt have yang release we can't assume she has it on the sly.

Fair enough. But that just means that even the databook doesn't really cover the Otsutsuki side of things.

Rock Lee has none of the above, not even yin or yang. So it's accurate.

It's hard to read the graph. It shown Chakra and Nature (Yin and Yang).. So maybe that's just misinterpretation on my part.

Although Nature should be Physical, no?
Lee is the definition of Physical. IDK why nature, no less.
I don't see him using sage mode. Although there is the Gates but that doesn't come from nature, it is from within himself.

So that's weird. Again, maybe I'm reading the graph wrong.


Once we start incorporating the new materials, we can deduce with more accuracy as we are given more clues and evidence.

Spoiler: how the family tree looks like with the new theory, disagree with that Tenseigan look though

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This do not conflict with the FACTS presented by the old THEORY.


FACT #1: Nagato is a Senju.
(Being part Senju and part Uzumaki does not conflict with this)

Deduction: Nagato is a Senju and Uzumaki
Speculation: Nagato is BOTH Senju and Uzumaki because Uzumakis are Senjus to begin with.

FACT #2: Uzumaki and Senju are distant relatives
(Graph states that to still be true.)

Deduction: Uzumaki and Senju have a common ancestor
Speculation: Common ancestor is only Asura

FACT #3: Naruto is Asura's transmigrant
(Senjus are dead. Where is it going to go?)
(There are no definition that Asura MUST go to a Senju)

Deduction: Asura CAN go to a Senju RELATIVE (this means anyone with bloodties to Senju's ancestors, could be Asura's, could be Kaguya's)
Speculation: Asura goes to a Senju branch (only Asura's own family treeline)



Conclusion: Uzumaki being Senjus is NOT a FACT. It is a THEORY.

it requires speculations and not enough incorporation of future materials to actually back this up. In fact, new materials discredit this even more. Therefore, it is NOT a FACT.

You are not providing information related to the subject. You are just spouting stuff unrelated. What does Toneri, Sage Mode, and Kurama Chakra Mode has to do with "Uzumaki is Senju'?

NOTHING. Because I'm proving that the Uzumaki is NOT Senju as your theory so called "FACTS" says.

"unrelated" pretty damn sure the Otsutsuki traits are NOT at the least bit unrelated.

Again, point to where it says Nagato is of Senju blood?

uhhh? The manga? I mean you presented it even with those scans.

I told you that was speculation,

Speculation on something you said was a FACT? I thought it was a FACT and not a THEORY?

You are right. But I NEVER said Uzumaki was a branch of Senju. Regarding their common ancestry, I was only speculating. I told you that

The fact that you USED speculation means that this THEORY is a THEORY not a FACT.

Get your head straight.

Look above.

hell, I'll even copy it.


FACT #1: Nagato is a Senju.
(Being part Senju and part Uzumaki does not conflict with this)

Deduction: Nagato is a Senju and Uzumaki
Speculation: Nagato is BOTH Senju and Uzumaki because Uzumakis are Senjus to begin with.

FACT #2: Uzumaki and Senju are distant relatives
(Graph states that to still be true.)

Deduction: Uzumaki and Senju have a common ancestor
Speculation: Common ancestor is only Asura

FACT #3: Naruto is Asura's transmigrant
(Senjus are dead. Where is it going to go?)
(There are no definition that Asura MUST go to a Senju)

Deduction: Asura CAN go to a Senju RELATIVE (this means anyone with bloodties to Senju's ancestors, could be Asura's, could be Kaguya's)
Speculation: Asura MUST and goes to a Senju branch (only Asura's own family treeline)



Conclusion: Uzumaki being Senjus is NOT a FACT. It is a THEORY.



You were grasping at straws.

Not only does your "FACT" use old info, the new ones seriously puts that "FACT" of yours to the test.

Example of not using new info: Kaguya HAS no Tenseigan.

She does, but the fact that The Last Movie is released and kept under wrap means that she wouldn't be able to use them.

Another is Momoshiki and Kinshiki and Isshiki.

Without new materials, the whole plot of her casting IT makes no sense. All we got was "invader from space"

Without Boruto manga, we would just get a destorted red demon, which Kaguya should've looked like as well.

It is not a theory. It is a fact directly from the Manga (no matter how you try to dice it).

I'm not refuting any facts. I'm refuting your and salamander's claim of fact.

Uzumaki being Senju is nothing more than a theory and not a fact.
It is utter misinforming garbage.

It is a widely known theory and has aged but not well.

My theory is that the Uzumaki is NOT Senju but rather Hamura's branch (Toneri's family).

Much like the Hyugas, Uzumaki left the moon (strong evidence that Hyugas are moon people as only Hamura have byakugan and Hagoromo's offsprings never was shown nor hinted to have byakugans) through the gate in the cave that Toneri used.

As for Uzumaki leaving the moon, mere speculation derived from the theory that they are Toneri's branch.
The fact that the Hyugas were ex-moon people means that there were other people that also left, either for personal reasons or just simply to avoid the moon war. (because PARALLELS. Indra and Asura fought. So did the main and branch families of the moon).

This is the sole reason why Toneri was alone. Because he achieved what Sasuke wanted to achieve, which is to destroy the world.

So how is incorporating the rest of Otsutsuki on an Otsutsuki family tree THEORY "unrelated"?

How does one make speculation as FACT rather than THEORY?

How the fricc do you turn Uzumaki is Senju because Nagato was a Senju, because Uzumaki and Senju are distant relative and Naruto is Asura's transmigrant into a FACT?

SOMETHING DERIVED FROM SPECULATIONS, YOU CALLED FACT IS A THEORY!
SO DONT CALL IT A FACT!

It is simply a widely known theory for the longest time. Existing before other details were put in. Not to mention, they needed really reaching speculations to make them plausibe. This cannot signify as FACT.

SO read the damn title and pay attention.

I'm not here to defend my theory that the Uzumaki is Toneri's family. I'm here to persuade people who say that the Uzumaki is of Senju bloodline is a FACT that it is instead a THEORY.

IF you want to discredit my theory, go into the other thread.

 

[00Rinne]

I was under the assumption that the major bloodlines we speak of in the series are blood related.

Senju/Uchiha/Uzumaki/Hyuuga are all close blood relatives.. (Hagoromo/Hamura Otsutsuki's bloodlimit or descendants)

Uchiha can inject Senju dna for thicker blood (Otsutsuki bloodlimit) givin them the power of their bloodlimits alien anetsors cuz it's the same.
All these clans can mix & get somethin beneficial out of it cuz their one in the same.
The story gives it to us this way if we keep everything in it's place.

I see Senju/Uzumaki just as I see how the main & branch families are in the Hyuuga clan..
(difference bein the long distance separations of the main & branch clan)

It says distant relatives.. We have to take it as generational..
Senju & Uchiha are fighting since Indra/Ashura's beef.. This we know. After some time pass, many of the Senju branch off into what we know as Uzumaki.. Generations past where the main brand (distant relatives/cousins) come back into contact with Uzumaki's.. who's learn more techniques as Kushina explains (red hair is probably the cause of the sealing techs) which is also probably why Hashirama learned sealing techs in no time.. It was natural to him.

I'd argue that Nagato is of Senju lineage cuz all these clans are one in the same through their alien bloodlimit but he is Uzumaki in name..



It's probably best to go with the original manga or anime cannon itself rather then novels or databooks cuz they usually don't mesh with the main sources. (Manga/Anime)

 

[minamoto]

Rinne000@ u come to AB and u don't even drop a Hi to ur old AB fellows...pffffftttt..