Uzumaki is Senju is JUST A THEORY

wanderingcactus

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Prove me wrong here @salamander uchiha

Rules are simple: we play your rules.

You asked me for them manga scans, databook, movie qoutes. No speculations whatsoever. (meaning that Nagato being Senju is not proof that Uzumakis are Senjus)


You are required to do that same.

Prove to me that Uzumakis are Senju descendants and I'd need actual qoutes stating that "ALL UZUMAKI ARE SENJU DESCENDANTS"

I want facts, no stringed conclusions, no speculations, it has to be explicit as per your request from me.

No logical fallacies.
No deflection.
No running away.

This is your thread. So prove your case.

While we're at it. Prove to us that Naruto is incompetent chakra user.

We already provided you with those as per your request going along with your rules.
Although you change subjects, you make us defend it more, you put on ignorance like make up.

PROVE TO US THAT THIS ISN'T YOUR FANFIC

FACTS DO NOT NEED SPECULATION

FACT #1: NAGATO IS SENJU
FACT #2: UZUMAKI AND SENJU ARE RELATED
FACT #3: NARUTO IS ASURA TRANSMIGRANT

FACT: UZUMAKI IS NOT NAGATO
SPECULATION: UZUMAKI IS FROM SENJU LINE

FACT: THERE ARE NO MORE REMAINING SENJU
FACT: ASURA MOVED TO UZUMAKI
SPECULATION: ASURA ONLY MOVES WITH THE ONE OF SENJU LINEAGE

THEREFORE, UZUMAKI IS OF SENJU LINEAGE IS JUST A THEORY. NOT A FACT.
 
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wanderingcactus

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Once you provide proof for your theory. Btw, last time I checked deduction was a valid form of evidence.

Last time I checked, my theory was filled with deductions..
So how come you're nitpicking?


mine has some statements and associations.
yeah... too much associations.

both yours and mine are theories. Mines is more fleshed out (because of the inclusion of the new movies as well as Boruto?)

The movies threw a lot of parallels. Thereby making those associations standout more than the outdated ones.

As for statements, you didn't get any that proves your point.
Only that Nagato is Senju. Not the entirety of the Uzumaki clan.

As for the transigrant, that is also negligible.
reason being: whether or not Uzumakis are Senjus, it doesn't matter. It proves that Asura can jump clans.

The fact that he can jump clans is proof that he simply can jump to the closest relative. It has been established that Uzumaki is a distant relative of Senjus. But it is not established that they are DIRECT relative/descendant of Senju,

However, that fact does not establish an explicit relationship of the Uzumaki being a branch of the Senju clan.

Which means my theory of Hamura at this point is still plausible.

I have more concrete evidence as the movies exhibited many similarities between several people.

Naruto, Toneri, Kinshiki.

The Boruto manga also included more duality symbolism and representations.


While the theory of Naruto being Senju falls into obscurity as the only evidence there is Asura (which is a Ninshu user as well).

Furthermore, my evidence carry more weight as they are more fleshed out and at the very end of the series (in fact they are the end of the series).

The timeframe of your theory dates back to where there is no Hagoromo, Hamura and maybe not even Kaguya. Just Rikudou Sennin.

Naruto was to be his 2nd coming, rather than Asura.


But the main point remains. You treated yours as an ABSOLUTE FACT, NOT A THEORY.

Any evidence presented to you are met with either avoidance or ignorance.

Yet when it is on your part, you give nothing of the sort. Not even the same caliber of information I had presented.
 
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wanderingcactus

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uzunaJi is senju...did i miss something in manga????...
nope, you just assumed that they are.

It was never said that the Uzumakis are Senjus. Only that Nagato is a Senju. Uzumaki being a distant relative is said. But so are the Uchihas and the Hyugas, so that means absolute nothing but that they are related by blood in some way.

Naruto being a transmigrant of Asura is a later addition (he was Rikudou Sennin's transmigrant). Then we learn about Ninshu and how it links people together through their chakra.

This is just me and salamander discussing theories.

Yet at one time he went overboard and stating that his is facts and mine is head canon, where both of them are just theories.

Albeit, the former is widely known and acknowledged (bandwagon fallacy).

Mine was revised and incorporated new materials such as the tail end of the series, the movies, and even boruto manga.

So the story is far more fleshed out and mature and had a direction aside from:

"Uzumaki is Senju because we need Naruto to be Rikudou Sennin"
to
"Oh, Naruto is just gonna be Asura's transmigrant instead"
to

"Oh, BTW, This Rikudiou Sennin is just a title. His name is Hagoromo and he has a twin brother, Hamura because Yin and Yang partners"
to

"Oh, there's a Yin and Yang space vampire that Kaguya wanted to fight which is why she made herself a Yin-Yang creature."
 

salamander uchiha

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Last time I checked, my theory was filled with deductions..
So how come the nitpicking?
Your theories deductions didn't have associations or statements of possible association. Quite simple really.

An example two people having chakra mode means nothing, since Naruto's is contingent on Kurama and Asura had his own. The latter was not a Hamura descendant, if anything due to the beastial form of Asura's it would put Naruto and him even closer. While Toneris came into existence with the existence of the Tenseigan (a KKG).

Edit: forgot to mention deduction is open to some testing (nitpicking) it should be able to at least stand some testing otherwise upon failure or get revised.
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uzunaJi is senju...did i miss something in manga????...
Yes
 
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wanderingcactus

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Your theories deductions didn't have associations or statements of possible association. Quite simple really.
yours was stung along the lines of "Nagato is this so this makes this, that"

It was a straw that you grasped on and pulled.

Again, because it is outdated and widely known, you choose to acknowledge it as FACT.

While Toneris came into existence with the existence of the Tenseigan (a KKG).
Toneri exhibited chakra mode BEFORE Tenseigan. Also his Tenseigan isn't even completed. This is the sole reason why he got neg diffed by Naruto. (Hanabi's eyes reverted back to normal Byakugan. Also his Tenseigan remained blue and swirly rather than the gold and white solid star ~ see Hamura's Tenseigan).
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Note that Kurama was beginning to be more flesh than chakra.

This means that the chakra mode is derived from either Naruto or Kishina's/Minato's/Uzumaki's fuinjutsu.
Chakra Mode isn't a derivative of Kurama's power.

We know that Kurama is himself and does not use chakra mode. That is solely due to Uzumaki powers.


Your theories deductions didn't have associations or statements of possible association

"distant relative"

Hagoromo: Hamura:
Uchiha Senju Hyuga Uzumaki


this remains to be true.


"Nagato as Senju"


Senju parent 1 Uzumaki parent 2
Nagato

This remains to be true



"Naruto is Asura's transmigrant"

Ninshu. The art of linking one's chakra with another.

Might I add that Naruto was suppose to be Rikudou Sennin (before Hagoromo, Kaguya, Hamura, Indra and Asura)

Also Asura's transmigrant was going to jump clans anyways. So doesn't matter whether or not Uzumakis are Senju related or Hamura related. They are the most capable of accepting his soul due to the Yang affinity.

This remains to be true.

So again, where is my deductions and where does yours lie?
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It just means they are cousins -and that's all we know. Although Kushina said "distant" we do not know which generation.

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I don't understand your stance here.


Does distant relative prove that Uzumakis are Senju's descendants?

Cuz that is his (and majority of the people who believe in this theory) claim.



Hagoromo + Hamura = brothers

If Uzumakis belong to Hamura, does that no longer make them distant relatives with the Senjus?
 
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minamoto

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nope, you just assumed that they are.

It was never said that the Uzumakis are Senjus. Only that Nagato is a Senju. Uzumaki being a distant relative is said. But so are the Uchihas and the Hyugas, so that means absolute nothing but that they are related by blood in some way.

Naruto being a transmigrant of Asura is a later addition (he was Rikudou Sennin's transmigrant). Then we learn about Ninshu and how it links people together through their chakra.

This is just me and salamander discussing theories.

Yet at one time he went overboard and stating that his is facts and mine is head canon, where both of them are just theories.

Albeit, the former is widely known and acknowledged (bandwagon fallacy).

Mine was revised and incorporated new materials such as the tail end of the series, the movies, and even boruto manga.

So the story is far more fleshed out and mature and had a direction aside from:

"Uzumaki is Senju because we need Naruto to be Rikudou Sennin"
to
"Oh, Naruto is just gonna be Asura's transmigrant instead"
to

"Oh, BTW, This Rikudiou Sennin is just a title. His name is Hagoromo and he has a twin brother, Hamura because Yin and Yang partners"
to

"Oh, there's a Yin and Yang space vampire that Kaguya wanted to fight which is why she made herself a Yin-Yang creature."
why u alwayz misadanstand or take me wrong or i dont knw what to say????...

i just want manga proof where u say uzunaji is senju....cuz for me i fail to find manga panel that says uzunaji are senjus..
 

wanderingcactus

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i just want manga proof where u say uzunaji is senju....cuz for me i fail to find manga panel that says uzunaji are senjus..
I'm refuting that claim that Uzumakis are Senjus...

IDK why you misunderstand me.
This is the whole premise of my and salamander's fight.

His stance is that Uzumakis are Senjus because Nagato is referenced as Senju.

I say that's a false cause and assumption logic fallacy. Just because one is a Senju, does not mean the entire Uzumaki is Senju.

His other evidence is that Uzumaki and Senju are distant blood relatives.

It does not explicitly say DIRECT relatives/descendants. So his theory is farfetched. (because he wants me to use explicit evidence as well)
High requirements for me, but his evidence is weak AF


Another of his evidence is Asura transmigrant is Naruto.

To which I say, Uzumakis are the closest Yang affinity relative alive as Senjus no longer had an available baby at the time of the new cycle (Sasuke being born).

There is also Ninshu (Asura is the 1st Ninshu user and head of the religion) so he can connect with people the same way Hagoromo and Hamura connects with people (them talking to Sasuke and Naruto and Hinata).
The absolute crux of the matter is that the theory is OLD.

ONE theory was that Naruto is Rikudou Sennin, then now he isn't. He is Asura's transmigrant.
Another is Rikudou Sennin is the top of the world, then he isn't. It's Kaguya's transcendent Yin-Yang 3 eye evolution.
Another was that Rikudou Sennin was the saviour of the world, then it isn't. It turns out RS is Hagoromo and he had a twin bro, Hamura. They both saved the world from their mother. Hamura lives IN the moon as RS.

There are 2 Rikudou Sennins.

Then there are space aliens. Turns out, they are Sage of 6 Paths as well. They work with Yin and Yang partnership.
One is Yin, One is Yang.
So it would make sense if it is balanced out.
Hagoromo has Uchiha (Yin, doujutsu) and Senju (Yang, body/Sage Mode)
Hamura has Hyuga (Yin doujutsu) and Uzumaki (Yang, body/Chakra Mode)

See? Balanced.

Another reason is Toneri. His story is a complete mirror of the last arc of Naruto. This time, it is the branch that transcends.

Madara stole the body, Toneri stole the eyes. Toneri had SOOOO MUCH similarities with Naruto (no, it isn't because of Tenseigan, it came BEFORE the transplant, also his wasn't completed. It was blue and swirly, not gold and solid white star pattern)

Even more when the Boruto movie came and introduced Kinshiki. It showed how Kinshiki uses chakra arsenal (much like Kushina's and Karin's chakra chain).

So this is the chain of similarities:

(Yang Path) Light Power (Yin Path) Dark Power
Kinshiki Momoshiki
Hamura Hagoromo (They had no shown feats)
Toneri Madara
Naruto Sasuke (half of RS powers)



Senjus had Sage Mode (tattoo lines on the face).
Sasuke had these
Naruto had these
Mitsuki had these
Tsunade had these

None of the Senjus went up in glowing chakra. Only Uzumakis and Toneri and Kinshiki did.

They do not reflect Uzumaki tech nor the Uzumaki tech resemble Senju techs.


Uzumaki's are far too different from Senjus and far too similar to Toneri and Kinshiki

DID I MENTION THAT THIS THEORY ISN'T USING OUTDATED, UNFLESHED OUT STORY?
 
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minamoto

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I'm refuting that claim that Uzumakis are Senjus...

IDK why you misunderstand me.
This is the whole premise of my and salamander's fight.

His stance is that Uzumakis are Senjus because Nagato is referenced as Senju.

I say that's a false cause and assumption logic fallacy. Just because one is a Senju, does not mean the entire Uzumaki is Senju.

His other evidence is that Uzumaki and Senju are distant blood relatives.

It does not explicitly say DIRECT relatives/descendants. So his theory is farfetched.

Another of his evidence is Asura transmigrant is Naruto.

To which I say, Uzumakis are the closest Yang affinity relative alive as Senjus no longer had an available baby at the time of the new cycle (Sasuke being born).

There is also Ninshu (Asura is the 1st Ninshu user and head of the religion) so he can connect with people the same way Hagoromo and Hamura connects with people (them talking to Sasuke and Naruto and Hinata).
The absolute crux of the matter is that the theory is OLD.

ONE theory was that Naruto is Rikudou Sennin, then now he isn't. He is Asura's transmigrant.
Another is Rikudou Sennin is the top of the world, then he isn't. It's Kaguya's transcendent Yin-Yang 3 eye evolution.
Another was that Rikudou Sennin was the saviour of the world, then it isn't. It turns out RS is Hagoromo and he had a twin bro, Hamura. They both saved the world from their mother. Hamura lives IN the moon as RS.

There are 2 Rikudou Sennins.

Then there are space aliens. Turns out, they are Sage of 6 Paths as well. They work with Yin and Yang.
So it would make sense if it is balanced out.
Hagoromo has Uchiha and Senju
Hamura has Hyuga and Uzumaki
See? Balanced.

Another reason is Toneri. His story is a complete mirror of the last arc of Naruto. This time, it is the branch that transcends.

Madara stole the body, Toneri stole the eyes. Toneri had SOOOO MUCH similarities with Naruto (no, it isn't because of Tenseigan, it came BEFORE the transplant, also his wasn't completed. It was blue and swirly, not gold and solid white star pattern)

Even more when the Boruto movie came and introduced Kinshiki. It showed how Kinshiki uses chakra arsenal (much like Kushina's and Karin's chakra chain).

So this is the chain of similarities:

(Yang Path) Light Power (Yin Path) Dark Power
Kinshiki Momoshiki
Hamura Hagoromo (They had no shown feats)
Toneri Madara
Naruto Sasuke (half of RS powers)



Senjus had Sage Mode (tattoo lines on the face).
Sasuke had these
Naruto had these
Mitsuki had these
Tsunade had these


They do not reflect Uzumaki tech nor the Uzumaki tech resemble that.


Uzumaki's are far too different from Senjus and far too similar to Toneri and Kinshiki

DID I MENTION THAT THIS THEORY ISN'T USING OUTDATED, UNFLESHED OUT STORY?
uzunaji r decendent of indra...one day it will happen just mark my words...
 

Yursix

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yours was stung along the lines of "Nagato is this so this makes this, that"

It was a straw that you grasped on and pulled.

Again, because it is outdated and widely known, you choose to acknowledge it as FACT.



Toneri exhibited chakra mode BEFORE Tenseigan. Also his Tenseigan isn't even completed. This is the sole reason why he got neg diffed by Naruto. (Hanabi's eyes reverted back to normal Byakugan. Also his Tenseigan remained blue and swirly rather than the gold and white solid star ~ see Hamura's Tenseigan).
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Note that Kurama was beginning to be more flesh than chakra.

This means that the chakra mode is derived from either Naruto or Kishina's/Minato's/Uzumaki's fuinjutsu.
Chakra Mode isn't a derivative of Kurama's power.

We know that Kurama is himself and does not use chakra mode. That is solely due to Uzumaki powers.





"distant relative"

Hagoromo: Hamura:
Uchiha Senju Hyuga Uzumaki


this remains to be true.


"Nagato as Senju"


Senju parent 1 Uzumaki parent 2
Nagato

This remains to be true



"Naruto is Asura's transmigrant"

Ninshu. The art of linking one's chakra with another.

Might I add that Naruto was suppose to be Rikudou Sennin (before Hagoromo, Kaguya, Hamura, Indra and Asura)

Also Asura's transmigrant was going to jump clans anyways. So doesn't matter whether or not Uzumakis are Senju related or Hamura related. They are the most capable of accepting his soul due to the Yang affinity.

This remains to be true.

So again, where is my deductions and where does yours lie?
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I don't understand your stance here.


Does distant relative prove that Uzumakis are Senju's descendants?

Cuz that is his (and majority of the people who believe in this theory) claim.



Hagoromo + Hamura = brothers

If Uzumakis belong to Hamura, does that no longer make them distant relatives with the Senjus?
Yes.

It is not a theory. It is a fact directly from the Manga (no matter how you try to dice it).

Also, are you reading the manga?

You are going on a tangent when none of your information is accurate or even supports the manga.
 
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wanderingcactus

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It is not a theory. It is a fact directly from the Manga (no matter how you try to dice it).
where is that fact?
any proof that had been presented and found were just 3 things:

1) Nagato is Senju
2) Uzumaki and Senju are distantly related
3) Naruto is Asura's transmigrant.

Nowhere in the manga, databook, nor movies say that Uzumakis are Senjus.

Also, are you reading the manga?
Read the Naruto manga and still follows Boruto manga. Watched the 2 movies that Kishi worked on (was never put into manga so that is the direct source unfortunately, except for Boruto movie. Ikemoto made that manga and changed designs and added Karma)

You are going on a tangent when none of your information is accurate or even supports the manga.

Another is "accuracy"
IDK what you mean by accuracy. That theory of yours has plenty of reaching holes to begin with.

MINE SUPPORTS BOTH THE MANGA AND MOVIES ENTIRELY.

1) Nagato is Senju
>Nagato's parents are Uzumaki and Senju (parent 1 Uzumaki, parent 2 Senju)
Nagato does not represent an entire clan.

That evidence is shit.

2)Uzumaki and Senju are distant relatives
>Hagoromo and Hamura are brothers, making their descendants distantly related

This evidence is vague. I can use that as my proof also.

3)Naruto is Asura's transmigrant
>Asura is a Ninshu user and can bond with anyone with chakra becoming one with them.
Uzumaki is still a Yang affinity centric.
Might I remind you that Naruto was RS 2nd coming before it changed to the Indra + Asura plotline?

Hagoromo wasn't even introduced yet, let alone Indra, Asura and Hamura

(Hamura's descendant or Senju's descendant, it doesn't matter)


These are all in line and accurate to the manga and movies (because Kishi didn't want to keep the manga going)

How about this:

Tell me, why is it that the Uzumakis share more similarities with Kinshiki, Toneri, and Mitsuki than the Senjus?

Uzumaki use glowing stuff, Senjus use dark colored tattoos.

If Uzumakis are closer to Senjus than Hamura, how come there's that huge disparity in similarities?
Uzumakis share more with Hamura than with the Senjus, how come?


Most of all, shits in this so called fact. (OUTDATED AF BTW)

In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition must be true because many or most people believe it, often concisely encapsulated as: "If many believe so, it is so"
 

Yursix

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where is that fact?
any proof that had been presented and found were just 3 things:

1) Nagato is Senju
2) Uzumaki and Senju are distantly related
3) Naruto is Asura's transmigrant.

Nowhere in the manga, databook, nor movies say that Uzumakis are Senjus.



Read the Naruto manga and still follows Boruto manga. Watched the 2 movies that Kishi worked on (was never put into manga so that is the direct source unfortunately, except for Boruto movie. Ikemoto made that manga and changed designs and added Karma)




Another is "accuracy"
IDK what you mean by accuracy. That theory of yours has plenty of reaching holes to begin with.

MINE SUPPORTS BOTH THE MANGA AND MOVIES ENTIRELY.

1) Nagato is Senju
>Nagato's parents are Uzumaki and Senju (parent 1 Uzumaki, parent 2 Senju)
Nagato does not represent an entire clan.

That evidence is shit.

2)Uzumaki and Senju are distant relatives
>Hagoromo and Hamura are brothers, making their descendants distantly related

This evidence is vague. I can use that as my proof also.

3)Naruto is Asura's transmigrant
>Asura is a Ninshu user and can bond with anyone with chakra becoming one with them.
Uzumaki is still a Yang affinity centric.
Might I remind you that Naruto was RS 2nd coming before it changed to the Indra + Asura plotline?

Hagoromo wasn't even introduced yet, let alone Indra, Asura and Hamura

(Hamura's descendant or Senju's descendant, it doesn't matter)


These are all in line and accurate to the manga and movies (because Kishi didn't want to keep the manga going)

How about this:

Tell me, why is it that the Uzumakis share more similarities with Kinshiki, Toneri, and Mitsuki than the Senjus?

Uzumaki use glowing stuff, Senjus use dark colored tattoos.

If Uzumakis are closer to Senjus than Hamura, how come there's that huge disparity in similarities?
Uzumakis share more with Hamura than with the Senjus, how come?


Most of all, shits in this so called fact. (OUTDATED AF BTW)

In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition must be true because many or most people believe it, often concisely encapsulated as: "If many believe so, it is so"
Nagato is an Uzumaki

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Naruto being Ashura's Transmigrant

It was never explained what connected Ashura's spirit to Naruto's. However, Zetsu connected what Kushina said in Chapter 500, Uzumaki and Senju are related.



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wanderingcactus

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uzunaji r decendent of indra...one day it will happen just mark my words...

Gladly would welcome that theory to put it to the test but that isn't relevant here though, is it?

The point here is that salamander has yet to PROVE that the theory of Uzumakis being Senjus as a FACT.

Or at least far more plausible than my theory.
He's a bit dumb and slow, it took him awhile that I never refuted mine was a theory and actually said that it was from the very beginning. Like it was outright transparent.

He was so dumb

Nagato is an Uzumaki

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Naruto being Ashura's Transmigrant

It was never explained what connected Ashura's spirit to Naruto's. However, Zetsu connected what Kushina said in Chapter 500, Uzumaki and Senju are related.



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1) Again, Nagato =/= entire clan.
Much like Naruto is a Namikaze, Nagato is a Senju.
It never was stated that his Senju lineage came from the Uzumaki clan itself.
Nagato being part Senju and part Uzumaki is plausible because you know, parents don't commit incest there.
(parent 1 Uzumaki, parent 2 Senju)


2) Kushina's account only stated that Uzumaki and Senju are related, NOT THE FORMER BEING DESCENDANT OF THE LATTER. It does not clarify the exact relationship.
Hagoromo and Hamura are related thereby making Uzumaki still related to Senjus (if Uzumaki is Hamura's bloodline).
Kushina and Mito were married off to Konoha.
Since Senju and Uzumaki are close, that means that they intertwine more with one another than with Uchiha and Hyuga.
This does not make Uzumaki necessarily a Senju descendant just because of their close friendship.
Otherwise, Kushina would've said "DIRECT RELATIVE/DESCENDANT/BRANCH OF SENJU"

3) Asura is a special case. He uses Ninshu (probably more advance than Naruto's chakra link with the Alliance)
So Avatar or as people claim it: Chakra Mode, isn't too farfetched for him to use.
However, none of the Senjus have this ability and have Sage Mode (Hashirama and Tsunade).



All of your claims as "FACTS" are then refuted by mine. So let's go with supporting evidence for my own theory:

1) New feats and facts > old feats and facts
that theory is outdated and had many revisions.
Naruto was set up as Rikuduo Sennin, the ultimate being. Then he wasn't anymore. There was Kaguya. Then there was Hagoromo, the Rikudou Sennin. BUT WAIT, he actually has a twin, Hamura. He, too, is a Rikudou Sennin.
Indra and Asura are introduced and transmigrant war was introduced

Naruto moved from 2nd coming of RS, to Hagoromo, to Asura's transmigrant.

2) parallels
Hagoromo's side had dark (Yin) while Hamura's side had light (Yang).
Senjus have dark tattoos on them, Uzumaki has glowing chakra chain and cloak.
Momoshiki had dark tattoos on him, Kinshiki had glowing chakra weapons
Juubito uses a dark sword, Toneri used a glowing sword

YIN (doujutsu)
Sharingan > Mangekyu > Rinnegan (all dark colours)
Byakugan > Jougan > Tenseigan (all light colours)
YANG (life force)
Sage Mode tattoo (dark)
Curse Mark (dark)
Karma (dark)
Chakra Cloak (light)
Chakra Chain (light)
Chakra Weapon (light)
3) Uzumakis are relatives of Senjus
Being Hamura's descendant still proves the distant relative fact

4) Nagato
Nagato has BOTH lineage of Senju and Uzumaki. It was not shown that Uzumaki was derived from Senju

5) Transmigrant
Ninshu, no Senju left. Uzumaki is the remaining and convenient Yang Otsutsuki.




Again, where are your facts?
Where does it exactly state that Uzumakis are Senju descendants?


All I've gotten is a theory made from vague details. Weak evidence.
I've refuted them and supported mine. Everything is in accordance to what was presented.

Yet, you call yours FACTS?
 

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Gladly would welcome that theory to put it to the test but that isn't relevant here though, is it?

The point here is that salamander has yet to PROVE that the theory of Uzumakis being Senjus as a FACT.

Or at least far more plausible than my theory.
He's a bit dumb and slow, it took him awhile that I never refuted mine was a theory and actually said that it was from the very beginning. Like it was outright transparent.

He was so dumb






1) Again, Nagato =/= entire clan.
Much like Naruto is a Namikaze, Nagato is a Senju.
It never was stated that his Senju lineage came from the Uzumaki clan itself.
Nagato being part Senju and part Uzumaki is plausible because you know, parents don't commit incest there.
(parent 1 Uzumaki, parent 2 Senju)


2) Kushina's account only stated that Uzumaki and Senju are related, NOT THE FORMER BEING DESCENDANT OF THE LATTER. It does not clarify the exact relationship.
Hagoromo and Hamura are related thereby making Uzumaki still related to Senjus (if Uzumaki is Hamura's bloodline).
Kushina and Mito were married off to Konoha.
Since Senju and Uzumaki are close, that means that they intertwine more with one another than with Uchiha and Hyuga.
This does not make Uzumaki necessarily a Senju descendant just because of their close friendship.
Otherwise, Kushina would've said "DIRECT RELATIVE/DESCENDANT/BRANCH OF SENJU"

3) Asura is a special case. He uses Ninshu (probably more advance than Naruto's chakra link with the Alliance)
So Avatar or as people claim it: Chakra Mode, isn't too farfetched for him to use.
However, none of the Senjus have this ability and have Sage Mode (Hashirama and Tsunade).



All of your claims as "FACTS" are then refuted by mine. So let's go with supporting evidence for my own theory:

1) New feats and facts > old feats and facts
that theory is outdated and had many revisions.
Naruto was set up as Rikuduo Sennin, the ultimate being. Then he wasn't anymore. There was Kaguya. Then there was Hagoromo, the Rikudou Sennin. BUT WAIT, he actually has a twin, Hamura. He, too, is a Rikudou Sennin.
Indra and Asura are introduced and transmigrant war was introduced

Naruto moved from 2nd coming of RS, to Hagoromo, to Asura's transmigrant.

2) parallels
Hagoromo's side had dark (Yin) while Hamura's side had light (Yang).
Senjus have dark tattoos on them, Uzumaki has glowing chakra chain and cloak.
Momoshiki had dark tattoos on him, Kinshiki had glowing chakra weapons
Juubito uses a dark sword, Toneri used a glowing sword

YIN (doujutsu)
Sharingan > Mangekyu > Rinnegan (all dark colours)
Byakugan > Jougan > Tenseigan (all light colours)
YANG (life force)
Sage Mode tattoo (dark)
Curse Mark (dark)
Karma (dark)
Chakra Cloak (light)
Chakra Chain (light)
Chakra Weapon (light)
3) Uzumakis are relatives of Senjus
Being Hamura's descendant still proves the distant relative fact

4) Nagato
Nagato has BOTH lineage of Senju and Uzumaki. It was not shown that Uzumaki was derived from Senju

5) Transmigrant
Ninshu, no Senju left. Uzumaki is the remaining and convenient Yang Otsutsuki.




Again, where are your facts?
Where does it exactly state that Uzumakis are Senju descendants?


All I've gotten is a theory made from vague details. Weak evidence.
I've refuted them and supported mine. Everything is in accordance to what was presented.

Yet, you call yours FACTS?

Bro, those are MANGA scans. FACTS. You cannot refute what is clearly said in the MANGA. You lose your whole argument and it's thus pointless to debate you.

Kushina said Senju and Uzumaki were "Distant Blood Relatives" - meaning connected through blood or marriage. Yeah, it was not clarified in what capacity. However, I did speculate they were cousins only because Hashirama Senju married Mito Uzumaki (that was sick and had to make sense); and I search for collateral descendants - meaning any blood relative who is not in your direct ancestor or descends from a common ancestor (Ashura).


What are you getting that Nagato is "PART" Senju from? It'd like you ignored the whole scan of Kabuto and Obito referencing his red hair trait of Uzumaki lineage.


You're not even disproving my arguments with facts. Your just writing nonsense and passing it off as an argument and what you believe is a fact.
 
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wanderingcactus

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Bro, those are MANGA scans. FACTS. You cannot refute what is clearly said in the MANGA. You lose your whole argument and it's thus pointless to debate you.
BRO THESE ARE FROM THE MOVIES AND LATER MANGAS BEYOND THOSE CHAPTERS

YOU LITERALLY CANNOT REFUTE THE MORE FLESHED OUT INFO!

Kushina said Senju and Uzumaki were "Distant Blood Relatives." Yeah, it was not clarified in what capacity. However, I did speculate they were cousins only because Hashirama Senju married Mito Uzumaki (that was sick and had to make sense); and I search for collateral descendants - meaning any blood relative who is not in your direct ancestor or descends from a common ancestor (Ashura)
Who dictated Asura was their common ancestor? More speculation on your part there.

Honestly, get me a manga fact that actually said that they are Senju's bloodline

What are you getting that Nagato is "PART" Senju from? It'd like you ignored the whole scan of Kabuto and Obito referencing his red hair trait of Uzumaki lineage.
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NAGATO is said to be of Senju bloodline.. NAGATO. Not the entire clan of UZUMAKI.



Get that in your head!



Your argument is as simple as me going on about: "Naruto is Namikaze" = Uzumaki is of Namikaze lineage.

Naruto has no red trait hair, does that make him no longer Uzumaki?

where's your logic there?


NAGATO IS NOT THE ENTIRE CLAN

where are you getting your facts from? From these 2 panels? Because NAGATO is said to be Senju and that Senju are relatives of Uzumaki?


Nowhere there is it stated that Uzumakis are branch of Senju. Nowhere there does it say that their common ancestry is Asura and not Kaguya or the 2 brothers.



YOURE GRASPING FOR STRAWS!

You're taking something speculated then stating it as FACTS?! HOW DUMB CAN YOU BE?



pretty sure that anyone with half a brain can tell you Nagato isn't a representative of the entire Uzumaki clan.
pretty sure that anyone can tell you that Uzumaki and Senju being relatives isn't PROOF that Uzumakis are Senju descendants.


SO WHERE ARE YOUR FACTS?!

"not disproving"

I'm pretty sure that I've called you out numerous times about you grasping for straws. Making conclusion out of your ass.

Conditions to make to prove your theory as fact:

Strong evidence of Senju traits on Uzumaki.

1) Parallel abilities
2) symbolism
3) direct quotes
4) multiple similarities from other characters


YOU HAVE ONE! THAT IS NAGATO

YOU HAVE NOTHING BUT SPECULATION ON WHERE THE ANCESTRY LIES FROM.

You have nothing that ties Uzumaki with Senju traits.

You have NOTHING to disprove my claims.



Unlike you, I don't say "I have facts" I am transparent that my theory is a theory.

You and salamander on the other hand, use
CAUSATION FALLACY to try to prove your case.


FACTS DO NOT NEED SPECULATION

FACT #1: NAGATO IS SENJU
FACT #2: UZUMAKI AND SENJU ARE RELATED
FACT #3: NARUTO IS ASURA TRANSMIGRANT

FACT: UZUMAKI IS NOT NAGATO
SPECULATION: UZUMAKI IS FROM SENJU LINE

FACT: THERE ARE NO MORE REMAINING SENJU
FACT: ASURA MOVED TO UZUMAKI
SPECULATION: ASURA ONLY MOVES WITH THE ONE OF SENJU LINEAGE



These are facts that help your THEORY.

NOT A FACT: UZUMAKI IS SENJU DESCENDANTS FROM ASURA'S LINEAGE


where does it say that in the manga or the movies?



THEORY: UZUMAKI IS SENJU DESCENDENT

NOT A FACT: UZUMAKI IS SENJU DESCENDENT

STOP STATING YOUR THEORY IS A FACT WHEN YOU USE SPECULATION TO MAKE IT PLAUSIBLE. IT'S JUST A THEORY AND NOT A FACT.
 
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salamander uchiha

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yours was stung along the lines of "Nagato is this so this makes this, that"

It was a straw that you grasped on and pulled.

Again, because it is outdated and widely known, you choose to acknowledge it as FACT.
There's nothing outdated about is, since nothing new (statements) has come to contradict it.



Toneri exhibited chakra mode BEFORE Tenseigan. Also his Tenseigan isn't even completed. This is the sole reason why he got neg diffed by Naruto. (Hanabi's eyes reverted back to normal Byakugan. Also his Tenseigan remained blue and swirly rather than the gold and white solid star ~ see Hamura's Tenseigan).
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Note that Kurama was beginning to be more flesh than chakra.

This means that the chakra mode is derived from either Naruto or Kishina's/Minato's/Uzumaki's fuinjutsu.
Chakra Mode isn't a derivative of Kurama's power.

We know that Kurama is himself and does not use chakra mode. That is solely due to Uzumaki powers.
This is meh:/

Toneri used chakra mode or was it his chakra reflecting the power of the Tenseigan orb? The same way Naruto uses the Kurama chakra and it takes in the colour of his chakra, not the regular Bijuu chakra (red)

Mitsuki is made to be the perfect vessel, that's not his chakra mode that's a sage mode. And he under goes physical change like Kabuto.

Kurama can't use chakra mode himself, he is Kurama, since he manifest his body and is trying to come back to life not remain a jin. After taking Kurama's chakra Naruto created a wooden cage using Kurama's yang enhanced key. It clearly is the chakra itself that modifies power. Anyway yes the seal was opened when Naruto stole Kurama's chakra so was it the seal?

On the point of golden chakra (I don't remember any golden chakra mode), Hamura gave chakra to Hinata hers was purple. Just because you awaken the same power doesn't mean you manifest the same coloured chakra. Madara has a blue Susanoo, Sasuke a purple one, Itachi Orange, Obito light blue, Shisui Green. The couple of the power is based on the individuals own chakra colour, not the chakra colour of Indra (Sasuke and Madara as example). That argument isn't of much merit.





"distant relative"

Hagoromo: Hamura:
Uchiha Senju Hyuga Uzumaki


this remains to be true.


"Nagato as Senju"


Senju parent 1 Uzumaki parent 2
Nagato

This remains to be true



"Naruto is Asura's transmigrant"

Ninshu. The art of linking one's chakra with another.

Distant blood relative is:

Hogaromo

Indra Uchiha Asura (Senju/Uzumaki) = Indra and Asura manifest the power of Hogaromo.

Hamura

Hyuga and Otsutsuki = manifest the power of Hamura.

Linking people's chakra doesn't mean jumping from clans outside the bloodline. Hence they're called blood relatives.

Might I add that Naruto was suppose to be Rikudou Sennin (before Hagoromo, Kaguya, Hamura, Indra and Asura)

Also Asura's transmigrant was going to jump clans anyways. So doesn't matter whether or not Uzumakis are Senju related or Hamura related. They are the most capable of accepting his soul due to the Yang affinity.

This remains to be true.

So again, where is my deductions and where does yours lie?
1st claim is only partially true, just as Hogaromo was said to have sealed the 10 tails. As the story progresses the details become clearer. So it was assumed by some Naruro may be rokudo senin, although I don't remember anybody saying that.

Asura transmigrant jumping clans isn't true, not if the two are related from Asura down the line and have a common ancestor (like Asura and Indra related at the source). An ancestor that has both as blood. Had Asura jumped in the Hyuga or the Otsutsuki, then yeah you could argue he jumps into other, but that never happened.

This claim of yang affinity is also not true, Kushina doesn't have Yang affinity so..
 
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This is meh:/
nitpick, ok..?

Toneri used chakra mode or was it his chakra reflecting the power of the Tenseigan orb?
Its his. Tenseigan Orb is all the way to the moon. Regardless, it is a Tenseigan tech, not Rinnegan. IT is a Yang affinity one (Hamura's) not Yin (Hagoromo's).

The same way Naruto uses the Kurama chakra and it takes in the colour of his chakra, not the regular Bijuu chakra (red)
Kurama never exhibited any glowing chakra mode (like Toneri and Naruto uses). This only happened when Naruto subdues Kurama with the chakra chains. (also Uzumaki fuinjutsu was designed to let Kurama's chakra out to mix with Naruto)

This points a lot to Hamura's attributes than Hagoromo's (Hamura has light stuff, Hagoromo has dark stuff).

Mitsuki is made to be the perfect vessel, that's not his chakra mode that's a sage mode. And he under goes physical change like Kabuto.
Mitsuki has BOTH Sage Mode and Chakra Mode. Like Naruto. IDK where you got the idea that it's a Sage Mode.
Sage Mode of any kind never had that glowing Super Saiyan chakra burst.

It's dark tattoos that come from the head and can come down to the body.

Kurama can't use chakra mode himself, he is Kurama, since he manifest his body and is trying to come back to life not remain a jin. After taking Kurama's chakra Naruto created a wooden cage using Kurama's yang enhanced key. It clearly is the chakra itself that modifies power. Anyway yes the seal was opened when Naruto stole Kurama's chakra so was it the seal?
Completely irrelevant. Kurama using chakra mode isn't his. It's the fuinjutsu or Kushina's chakra chains. Or Naruto's own Uzumaki power.

Why?

Because the other jins do not exhibit that Chakra Mode. They undergo all through the normal stages like Kurama does. But they do not glow. Neither did Kurama until he was subjugated by Naruto.

This is also true for the Yin part of Kurama. Because of the fuinjutsu that hey are in chakra mode. That is the most logical solution to that.

Although, it still doesn't address the fact that Kurama (shown in pic during the Chibaku Tensei) was normalizing. He was coming out as himself rather than KCM.

On the point of golden chakra (I don't remember any golden chakra mode), Hamura gave chakra to Hinata hers was purple. Just because you awaken the same power doesn't mean you manifest the same coloured chakra. Madara has a blue Susanoo, Sasuke a purple one, Itachi Orange, Obito light blue, Shisui Green. The couple of the power is based on the individuals own chakra colour, not the chakra colour of Indra (Sasuke and Madara as example). That argument isn't of much merit.

Sure, they are merely chakra. But the point was the similarities.
You make a good point about the Susanoos being any kind of color.

Although, they were a thing way before Hagoromo and Hamura were introduced. Back when it is just RIkuduo Sennin.
This is why I say outdated and unrefined.

Mine were more fleshed out because majority of the evidence came from the end of the series (which is the movies and Boruto manga).

I like the part that Momoshiki was tattooed up when he transcended. It shows the Sage Mode being tattoos, not those ugly ass red demon.

Distant blood relative is:

Hogaromo

Indra Uchiha Asura (Senju/Uzumaki) = Indra and Asura manifest the power of Hogaromo.

Hamura

Hyuga and Otsutsuki = manifest the power of Hamura.

Linking people's chakra doesn't mean jumping from clans outside the bloodline. Hence they're called blood relatives.

yeah but think about this for a sec:

Hagoromo: Uchiha and Senju
Hamura: Uzumaki and Hyuga

see? blood relative.

Regardless of which, Ninshu connects people and they become as one with another.
Asura had that power. (which is why he is the only one that was shown to use the Avatar).
The rest of his descendants were using Sage Mode or some variants of them.

So it was assumed by some Naruro may be rokudo senin, although I don't remember anybody saying that.
Jman I think?

Either way, that is why we got Hagoromo looking like Naruto. (Yin is suppose to be feminine and Yang is suppose to be masculine).

Yet, we know that Hagoromo is the Rinnegan user (by parallels from Indra and Asura, we can surmise that he was the oldest of the twin). He also manifested his doujutsu first than Hamura (also drawing parallels).

This makes Hagoromo Yin. Yet he is masculine while Hamura is feminine.

This is because of the retcon.
Asura transmigrant jumping clans isn't true, not if the two are related from Asura down the line and have a common ancestor (like Asura and Indra related at the source). An ancestor that has both as blood. Had Asura jumped in the Hyuga or the Otsutsuki, then yeah you could argue he jumps into other, but that never happened.

By all intents and purposes, Uzumaki is a separate clan to Senjus (whether their origins are Hamura's or Asura's).

Assuming that the Otsutsuki IS the Uzumaki, then yes, it has jumped. It jumped from Senju to Naruto (a branch family of Hamura).

Again, unclear origins. Either way, it doesn't refute my point.

This claim of yang affinity is also not true, Kushina doesn't have Yanag affinity so..

Of course she doesn't on the databook. Again, outdated. It might not actually point out the Otsutsuki affinities as well.

WE know Kushina has longevity due to her Uzumaki bloodline as stated by her. That is a Yang affinity.


Also the databook shows chakra as black or Yin. While Nature as white, Yang. WE know Uzumakis are powerhouses of chakra.

Makes sense that she is Yin.

If that isn't clear then let's look at Rock Lee. It says that he has Yin-Yang affinity. But he cannot use chakra like ninjutsu.

So clearly that affinity mark isn't completely accurate in regards to 6 Paths affinities.
 

salamander uchiha

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nitpick, ok..?
It's not a nitpick, it's called testing your theory.



Its his. Tenseigan Orb is all the way to the moon. Regardless, it is a Tenseigan tech, not Rinnegan. IT is a Yang affinity one (Hamura's) not Yin (Hagoromo's).
Hold on a minute who said Hamura is Yang and Hogaromo is Yin? Where have we gone to with this?



Kurama never exhibited any glowing chakra mode (like Toneri and Naruto uses). This only happened when Naruto subdues Kurama with the chakra chains. (also Uzumaki fuinjutsu was designed to let Kurama's chakra out to mix with Naruto)

This points a lot to Hamura's attributes than Hagoromo's (Hamura has light stuff, Hagoromo has dark stuff).
Yes, to the seal allowing mixing of chakra, nobody said the fuinn jutsu didn't allow it. However, how does that make it the same as Toneri's? That is the question.

Naruto got it from Kurama chakra via fuinn, yes. Asura had his own vain his own chakra or being granted power from Hogaromo. How I don't know how any of that correlates to it being A Hamura thing, when you have Asura (Hogaromo's son) with it?



Mitsuki has BOTH Sage Mode and Chakra Mode. Like Naruto. IDK where you got the idea that it's a Sage Mode.
Sage Mode of any kind never had that glowing Super Saiyan chakra burst.

It's dark tattoos that come from the head and can come down to the body.
That's meh:/ Naruto has RSM and has a chakra mode with it. In fact in the databook he's in chakra mode and it's referred to as RSM.



Completely irrelevant. Kurama using chakra mode isn't his. It's the fuinjutsu or Kushina's chakra chains. Or Naruto's own Uzumaki power.

Why?

Because the other jins do not exhibit that Chakra Mode. They undergo all through the normal stages like Kurama does. But they do not glow. Neither did Kurama until he was subjugated by Naruto.

This is also true for the Yin part of Kurama. Because of the fuinjutsu that hey are in chakra mode. That is the most logical solution to that.

Although, it still doesn't address the fact that Kurama (shown in pic during the Chibaku Tensei) was normalizing. He was coming out as himself rather than KCM.

It is entirely relevant since Kurama had a body, if he's trying to free himself then yes. Like I said the fuinn jutsu was undone when Naruto stole the chakra, by separating the will he gained a yellow mode. We can't attribute that to the fuinn jutsu.

You're also ignoring the fact that Yang Kurama still had a body and wasn't in chakra mode even before he was sealed.

Kurama normalising in the CT was Kurama overtaking Naruto, not Kurama working with Naruto under his control without malice.



Sure, they are merely chakra. But the point was the similarities.
You make a good point about the Susanoos being any kind of color.

Although, they were a thing way before Hagoromo and Hamura were introduced. Back when it is just RIkuduo Sennin.
This is why I say outdated and unrefined.

Mine were more fleshed out because majority of the evidence came from the end of the series (which is the movies and Boruto manga).

I like the part that Momoshiki was tattooed up when he transcended. It shows the Sage Mode being tattoos, not those ugly ass red demon.
Good at least we agree on one thing colour doesn't mean anything.

The problem is there's nothing that negates the earlier relationships by the end of the series, it only confirms new ones (Hgaromo had a brother, his mother etc).



yeah but think about this for a sec:

Hagoromo: Uchiha and Senju
Hamura: Uzumaki and Hyuga

see? blood relative.

Regardless of which, Ninshu connects people and they become as one with another.
Asura had that power. (which is why he is the only one that was shown to use the Avatar).
The rest of his descendants were using Sage Mode or some variants of them.
I have and it doesn't add up.

Let's look at it another way

Indra (Uchiha) + Asura (Senju and Uzumaki) = Rinnegan = Hogaromo.

Hanabi (Hyuga) + Toneri (Otsutsuki) = Tenseigan and it's powers = Hamura.

You see the connections and blood relations statement being for the Senju and not the others? Oh and you can see the relation mships.

Asura's power is from Hogaromo, RSM was made to connect people. However, that doesn't work for trans migration otherwise Hogaromo would've mentioned it. Ie. My son has reincarnated in my brother's family.

Jman I think?

Either way, that is why we got Hagoromo looking like Naruto. (Yin is suppose to be feminine and Yang is suppose to be masculine).

Yet, we know that Hagoromo is the Rinnegan user (by parallels from Indra and Asura, we can surmise that he was the oldest of the twin). He also manifested his doujutsu first than Hamura (also drawing parallels).

This makes Hagoromo Yin. Yet he is masculine while Hamura is feminine.

This is because of the retcon.
I don't remember Jman saying that.

Anyway, that's a yes and no. Hamura is the feminine one like the Uchiha, not Hogaromo.



By all intents and purposes, Uzumaki is a separate clan to Senjus (whether their origins are Hamura's or Asura's).

Assuming that the Otsutsuki IS the Uzumaki, then yes, it has jumped. It jumped from Senju to Naruto (a branch family of Hamura).

Again, unclear origins. Either way, it doesn't refute my point.
It would need to jump to the Hyuga or Otsutsuki for the claim of jumping to others to be valid, and not just to the clan called blood relatives. On this point, the Otsutsuki clan also had Byakugan as did the Hyuga so Uzumaki can't be from them either, otherwise we would see their dojutsu.



Of course she doesn't on the databook. Again, outdated. It might not actually point out the Otsutsuki affinities as well.

WE know Kushina has longevity due to her Uzumaki bloodline as stated by her. That is a Yang affinity.


Also the databook shows chakra as black or Yin. While Nature as white, Yang. WE know Uzumakis are powerhouses of chakra.

Makes sense that she is Yin.
Kushina doesn't have the affinity and the databook is end of series, so it's not outdated. Actually longevity is an Uzumaki trait comes from powerful lifeforce, that doesn't make it a yang trait per se. And since she doesnt have yang release we can't assume she has it on the sly.


If that isn't clear then let's look at Rock Lee. It says that he has Yin-Yang affinity. But he cannot use chakra like ninjutsu.

So clearly that affinity mark isn't completely accurate in regards to 6 Paths affinities.
Rock Lee has none of the above, not even yin or yang. So it's accurate.

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