Tsunade vs Hiashi

[lndra]

Hiashi wins I believe.

 

[neosmith500]

Hiashi wins.

 

[Abomination]

Tsunade would be suicidal if he engages in cqc with Hiashi. Her chance is to jump and punch the ground, destroying his foothold. But again, Hiashi shat on Juubi's tail coming at him.

 

[Strict]

Hiashi. Her seal reopens the blocked Chakra points? Scan or bullshit.

 

[Icelerate]

Hiashi. Her seal reopens the blocked Chakra points? Scan or bullshit.

What do you think would happen to the excess chakra in the Yin seal as it tries to flow throughout Tsunade's body? It would end up getting blocked but as the pressure builds up, the chakra points would eventually open, no?

This is analogous to a sewer pipe with a blockage. If more and more water keeps on getting pumped into the sewer pipe, eventually the blockage will breakdown.

 

[neosmith500]

What do you think would happen to the access chakra in the Yin seal as it tries to flow throughout Tsunade's body? It would end up getting blocked but as the pressure builds up, the chakra points would eventually open, no?

This is analogous to a sewer pipe with a blockage. If more and more water keeps on getting pumped into the sewer pipe, eventually the blockage will breakdown.

Yes , i agree with that analogy but jyuken basically prevents water from passin through the pipe similarly to wat happend to kidomaru , someone who like tsunade has access to a secondary chakra source which is not connected to his chakra network in the sense that jyuken cant directly attack it (CM/Yin seal ) yet kido noted he "could not channel his chakra" which means he tried but failed due to effects jyuken had on his body , and since CM like Yin seal is not connected to the network then logically kido should still hav been able to "channel" chakra which he tried to do but failed.

 

[Icelerate]

Yes , i agree with that analogy but jyuken basically prevents water from passin through the pipe similarly to wat happend to kidomaru , someone who like tsunade has access to a secondary chakra source which is not connected to his chakra network in the sense that jyuken cant directly attack it (CM/Yin seal ) yet kido noted he "could not channel his chakra" which means he tried but failed due to effects jyuken had on his body , and since CM like Yin seal is not connected to the network then logically kido should still hav been able to "channel" chakra which he tried to do but failed.

Well the CM didn't gather a large reservoir of chakra in one focal point like the Yin seal does so it can't build much pressure if at all. My premise only works if Byakugou is active meaning the Yin seal is pumping chakra at the moment chakra points start getting clogged. If Byakogou is not active, it won't be able to become active if the Yin seal is inactive because it can't activate itself.

 

[Strict]

What do you think would happen to the access chakra in the Yin seal as it tries to flow throughout Tsunade's body? It would end up getting blocked but as the pressure builds up, the chakra points would eventually open, no?

This is analogous to a sewer pipe with a blockage. If more and more water keeps on getting pumped into the sewer pipe, eventually the blockage will breakdown.

Don't compare the Chakra network to steel pipes, rather compare them to veins. The force needed to break a pipe of steel is bigger than breaking the blockade clogging the way. The Chakra network may be more sensitive. Just by the way. The gentle fist doesn't clog the Chakra points either, it blocks them and thus block the ability to release further Chakra from those body parts. You can't simply pump Chakra forcefully through the Tenketsu. If the Chakra points are blocked, you are not at all able to control and release Chakra. This also means that Tsunade's seal is useless since her regeneration requires Chakra which she can't control/form/release/use. Apart from that, Hiashi could block her Chakra points again even after the seal is released (what wouldn't be possible either as she couldn't perform Jutsu with a blocked Chakra network).

The burden of proof is up to the one claiming. You claim that the seal will somehow reopen the Chakra points, then prove it. The Chakra she stored up in her seal are just reserves she releases to increase her chakra supply. It is nothing special to think it would nullify the effect of blocked Chakra points.

The gentle fist is actually the most effective way to fight Tsunade, since it blocks the Chakra points and in the same sense causes internal damage, which she can't heal since the Chakra points in this area are blocked. A master of the Byakugan blocks all her Chakra points instantly. The rotation is a perfect defence against Tsunade's brute strength, as the momentum will just be redirected.

Hiashi got this.

 

[neosmith500]

Well the CM didn't gather a large reservoir of chakra in one focal point like the Yin seal does so it can't build much pressure if at all. My premise only works if Byakugou is active meaning the Yin seal is pumping chakra at the moment chakra points start getting clogged. If Byakogou is not active, it won't be able to become active if the Yin seal is inactive because it can't activate itself.

So ur sayin the byakugo would constantly pump chakra while the points are bein blocked , which is a very good idea/premise but we kno the yin seal cant function on its own so if hiashi were able to hit a couple points on her upper body similarly to wat neji did to kido with wat seems to be a single strike , then the byakugo should/could get deactivated like kido's CM2 and fail to pump chakra since the process of chakra overpowering the blocked points should take a lil while as we saw in neji vs naruto unless the byakugo instantly reups the users chakra even faster than kurama.

 

[Icelerate]

Don't compare the Chakra network to steel pipes, rather compare them to veins. The force needed to break a pipe of steel is bigger than breaking the blockade clogging the way. The Chakra network may be more sensitive. Just by the way. The gentle fist doesn't clog the Chakra points either, it blocks them and thus block the ability to release further Chakra from those body parts. You can't simply pump Chakra forcefully through the Tenketsu. If the Chakra points are blocked, you are not at all able to control and release Chakra. This also means that Tsunade's seal is useless since her regeneration requires Chakra which she can't control/form/release/use. Apart from that, Hiashi could block her Chakra points again even after the seal is released (what wouldn't be possible either as she couldn't perform Jutsu with a blocked Chakra network).

Never said Tsunade would execute any jutsu after her chakra gets blocked. Never said the chakra network is the same as steel pipes, that was just an analogy. However, we've seen that Naruto's chakra network managed to withstand the sudden surge of Kyuubi chakra which unblocked chakra points without Naruto's chakra network sustaining any kind of damage from this pressure. Blocking is pretty much the same as clogging. The rest is irrelevant as it doesn't answer any of my questions. My question asks about the scenario where regeneration is already active.

Edit: To put it simply, I agree that chakra can't be sent through blocked chakra points, nor can chakra be produced from the cells where gentle fist has blocked. The only certain way of preventing the Yin seal in releasing more chakra would be to block that as well but I don't believe that a small amount of gentle fist can block such a high amount of chakra in such a small region. From my point of view, it'd simply get overpowered.

The burden of proof is up to the one claiming. You claim that the seal will somehow reopen the Chakra points, then prove it. The Chakra she stored up in her seal are just reserves she releases to increase her chakra supply. It is nothing special to think it would nullify the effect of blocked Chakra points.

When/where did I make a claim? I asked a question. The chakra that Tsunade releases from her seal gives her markings all over her body therefore it isn't just extra reserves that increase her chakra supply.

The gentle fist is actually the most effective way to fight Tsunade, since it blocks the Chakra points and in the same sense causes internal damage, which she can't heal since the Chakra points in this area are blocked. A master of the Byakugan blocks all her Chakra points instantly. The rotation is a perfect defence against Tsunade's brute strength, as the momentum will just be redirected.

Yes Hiashi can kill Tsunade while her regeneration is down. What does rotation blocking Tsunade's punches have to do with my question?

Hiashi got this.

I wasn't even debating who wins.

Edit: Also you claim that I have to provide proof but the person answering the question does, not the person asking them.

So ur sayin the byakugo would constantly pump chakra while the points are bein blocked , which is a very good idea/premise but we kno the yin seal cant function on its own so if hiashi were able to hit a couple points on her upper body similarly to wat neji did to kido with wat seems to be a single strike , then the byakugo should/could get deactivated like kido's CM2 and fail to pump chakra since the process of chakra overpowering the blocked points should take a lil while as we saw in neji vs naruto unless the byakugo instantly reups the users chakra even faster than kurama.

Well if Tsunade's chakra points in her upper body get blocked, the chakra from the Yin seal will no longer be able to flow below her head but it would still be able to flow in the areas around the Yin seal, thus building up pressure in that area. Once the yin seal gets activated, the user isn't constantly forcing the seal to send more and more chakra, it becomes automatic once it is already active. Kurama didn't pump much chakra into Naruto during the CE, whereas we've seen that the chakra from the Yin seal can heal thousands of shinobi at the same time, however, Hiashi is much more powerful than genin Neji. I agree that it would take a few seconds, at least, to unblock chakra points, if it is really possible to do so.

 

[Strict]

Never said Tsunade would execute any jutsu after her chakra gets blocked. Never said the chakra network is the same as steel pipes, that was just an analogy. However, we've seen that Naruto's chakra network managed to withstand the sudden surge of Kyuubi chakra which unblocked chakra points without Naruto's chakra network sustaining any kind of damage from this pressure. Blocking is pretty much the same as clogging. The rest is irrelevant as it doesn't answer any of my questions. My question asks about the scenario where regeneration is already active.

When/where did I make a claim? I asked a question. The chakra that Tsunade releases from her seal gives her markings all over her body therefore it isn't just extra reserves that increase her chakra supply.

Yes Hiashi can kill Tsunade while her regeneration is down. What does rotation blocking Tsunade's punches have to do with my question?

I wasn't even debating who wins.

Appearance of the Jutsu (markings on the body) are no explanation of how the technique works. All we know is that Tsunade stores up Chakra in her seal which she releases if needed as a further supply, also to use her healing abilities which need a certain amount of Chakra. Anything else is interpretation with no evidence. We know that the gentle fist blocks the Tenketsu of the Chakra pathway, and if these are blocked, you are not able to release Chakra anymore. There is nothing to be done about that.

And well, Kyuubi's Chakra was an external source that entered his Chakra network and reloaded it. Those who didn't consider the Kyuubi, considered it impossible to release his Chakra as the Tenketsu were blocked. To us, Tsunade's seal is nothing but a further supply of her own Chakra which he stored up. Let's consider that upon release the seal will restore the Chakra though the Tenketsu are blocked; there will be still a logical flaw: If her Chakra points are blocked, she can't release Chakra and use any Jutsu. The activation of the seal is part of the Jutsu as well. And if her seal is already activated, Hiashi can still block the Chakra points. So the result will always be the same. Whether the seal is activated or not (since she can't activate the seal after her Chakra points are blocked, and even if she could, it wouldn't save her from a second gentle fist attack).

 

[Icelerate]

Appearance of the Jutsu (markings on the body) are no explanation of how the technique works. All we know is that Tsunade stores up Chakra in her seal which she releases if needed as a further supply, also to use her healing abilities which need a certain amount of Chakra. Anything else is interpretation with no evidence. We know that the gentle fist blocks the Tenketsu of the Chakra pathway, and if these are blocked, you are not able to release Chakra anymore. There is nothing to be done about that.

When using Byakogou, the seal's chakra is released and there hasn't been an instance of Byakogou or creation rebirth being used without the Yin seal. Tsunade not being able to release chakra doesn't mean the already released yin seal won't be able to.

And well, Kyuubi's Chakra was an external source that entered his Chakra network and reloaded it. Those who didn't consider the Kyuubi, considered it impossible to release his Chakra as the Tenketsu were blocked. To us, Tsunade's seal is nothing but a further supply of her own Chakra which he stored up. Let's consider that upon release the seal will restore the Chakra though the Tenketsu are blocked; there will be still a logical flaw: If her Chakra points are blocked, she can't release Chakra and use any Jutsu. The activation of the seal is part of the Jutsu as well. And if her seal is already activated, Hiashi can still block the Chakra points. So the result will always be the same. Whether the seal is activated or not (since she can't activate the seal after her Chakra points are blocked, and even if she could, it wouldn't save her from a second gentle fist attack).

@bold, you mean she right?

Naruto doesn't have the Yin seal so Naruto getting help from Kurama doesn't mean the Yin seal can't do something similar. Those who thought it was impossible to unblock blocked tenketsu obviously did not have the Yin seal in mind.

If Tsunade's chakra points get blocked, she can't release chakra but if she has already opened her yin seal, it would create a blockage which may end up getting opened due to the chakra pressure because the chakra won't have any place to go. Hiashi blocking chakra points while the seal is active doesn't prove your point. What effect would that actually have?

 

[neosmith500]

Well if Tsunade's chakra points in her upper body get blocked, the chakra from the Yin seal will no longer be able to flow below her head but it would still be able to flow in the areas around the Yin seal, thus building up pressure in that area. Once the yin seal gets activated, the user isn't constantly forcing the seal to send more and more chakra, it becomes automatic once it is already active. Kurama didn't pump much chakra into Naruto during the CE, whereas we've seen that the chakra from the Yin seal can heal thousands of shinobi at the same time, however, Hiashi is much more powerful than genin Neji. I agree that it would take a few seconds, at least, to unblock chakra points, if it is really possible to do so.

Yes and would it be logical to asume that with the points in her upper body blocked preventing the chakra in the seal from flowing below the head it would ultimately stop tsunade from healing/regenerating damage below the head since its logical to assume that yin seal functions by regenerating injuries from all over the body due to the technique's effects/chakra running through the whole body similarly to the standard medic justus healing a general area with chakra , only yin seal actively heals/regens the whole body on a much higher level.

So losing connection to the chakra pathways in the upper body which would include the head would/should surely deactivate yin seal by severing the connection (ability to channel from ) stoppin access to the tech due to jyukens effects.

 

[Icelerate]

Yes and would it be logical to asume that with the points in her upper body blocked preventing the chakra in the seal from flowing below the head it would ultimately stop tsunade from healing/regenerating damage below the head since its logical to assume that yin seal functions by regenerating injuries from all over the body due to the technique's effects/chakra running through the whole body similarly to the standard medic justus healing a general area with chakra , only yin seal actively heals/regens the whole body on a much higher level.

I agree with this part of your post completely.

So losing connection to the chakra pathways in the upper body which would include the head would/should surely deactivate yin seal by severing the connection (ability to channel from ) stoppin access to the tech due to jyukens effects.

I'm not too sure about this. I'm not here to debate but if you can go more indepth that would be nice to see your viewpoint on why the Yin seal would get deactivated just because chakra pathways around it get blocked. If the yin seal was to get forcefully closed then that would work.

 

[Strict]

@Icelerate

Yeah I mean she.

if she has already opened her yin seal, it would create a blockage which may end up getting opened due to the chakra pressure because the chakra won't have any place to go.

That's the speculative part. You say this with no evidence, you interpret it as you consider the Chakra network like a pipeline which is clogged, and with enough pressure, this obstruction would just break. But that's not how it works. This is no obstruction. If the Chakra point is blocked, you simply can't release Chakra. But Kyuubi's Chakra was another Chakra manifesting around his body [

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][

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].

When using Byakogou, the seal's chakra is released and there hasn't been an instance of Byakogou or creation rebirth being used without the Yin seal.

Doesn't matter. The fact remains that the seal just stores up her own Chakra. She releases it for creation rebirth or Byakugo because of the Chakra supply. Because the seal was only noted to store her Chakra. It being used for Byakugo doesn't state that there is something else about it. As long as nothing else is stated, we only threat it as what it was stated.

So what's your opinion? If Hiashi blocks her Chakra points, the Chakra will just keep restoring her Chakra network as her seal was the source of further Chakra supply? Again, the gentle fist doesn't clog the Chakra points. It blocks them. Means you can't release Chakra from begin with in this area.

 

[Icelerate]

That's the speculative part. You say this with no evidence, you interpret it as you consider the Chakra network like a pipeline which is clogged, and with enough pressure, this obstruction would just break. But that's not how it works. This is no obstruction. If the Chakra point is blocked, you simply can't release Chakra. But Kyuubi's Chakra was another Chakra manifesting around his body [

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][

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].

You can't release or pass chakra where the chakra point is blocked but that doesn't mean it isn't possible for those chakra points to get unblocked from chakra elsewhere. Kyuubi's chakra being a different chakra doesn't change the fact it is chaka first and foremost which was successful in unblocking those supposedly impossible to unblock chakra points.

Doesn't matter. The fact remains that the seal just stores up her own Chakra. She releases it for creation rebirth or Byakugo because of the Chakra supply. Because the seal was only noted to store her Chakra. It being used for Byakugo doesn't state that there is something else about it. As long as nothing else is stated, we only threat it as what it was stated.

The manga not explicitly stating something can happen doesn't mean in a certain scenario, it can't happen. The manga never put the Yin seal against gentle fist so both our claims are speculative. If Naruto never fought Neji, you'd be saying gentle fist can shut off any jin just because it wasn't explicitly shown otherwise.

So what's your opinion? If Hiashi blocks her Chakra points, the Chakra will just keep restoring her Chakra network as her seal was the source of further Chakra supply? Again, the gentle fist doesn't clog the Chakra points. It blocks them. Means you can't release Chakra from begin with in this area.

Clog or block is just you playing with words. The manga has shown that this blockage isn't irreversible. Well I think I've made my opinion clear but I'll state it again.

IMO, an already released Yin seal means that Tsunade can no longer control it if her chakra pathway gets blocked but since it is already activated, it won't deactivate because the seal is already opened. Now if chakra is flowing out of the seal, Hiashi won't be able to block the seal itself because that chakra will end up overcoming Hiashi's own gentle fist. Now Tsunade can't fight properly and her regeneration would get messed up so Hiashi can still kill her but if Hiashi leaves her alone, eventually a similar scenario to what transpired with Naruto would probably happen. Sure the chakra won't leak out like a cloak but that isn't the reason why Naruto's chakra points were able to reopen.

 

[Strict]

IMO, an already released Yin seal means that Tsunade can no longer control it if her chakra pathway gets blocked but since it is already activated, it won't deactivate because the seal is already opened. Now if chakra is flowing out of the seal, Hiashi won't be able to block the seal itself because that chakra will end up overcoming Hiashi's own gentle fist. Now Tsunade can't fight properly and her regeneration would get messed up so Hiashi can still kill her but if Hiashi leaves her alone, eventually a similar scenario to what transpired with Naruto would probably happen. Sure the chakra won't leak out like a cloak but that isn't the reason why Naruto's chakra points were able to reopen.

Well, looks like we can find a common ground. We partly disagree and agree. Though disagreement is only based on everyone's own interpretation and view.

 

[neosmith500]

I'm not too sure about this. I'm not here to debate but if you can go more indepth that would be nice to see your viewpoint on why the Yin seal would get deactivated just because chakra pathways around it get blocked. If the yin seal was to get forcefully closed then that would work.

Similarly to neji deactivating kido's CM2 with jyuken

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Due to kido noting the loss of his ability to channel chakra , jyuken was able to cut the connection to the seal , instantly ending the mode and stopin him from channelin chakra from the CM which is wat i think would happen to the yin seal user since CM like the yin seal , cant function on its own which means its logical that the seal would deactivate after the users network gets scrambled by jyuken imo.

 

[Power Bottom]

Tsunade wins

 

[New Dawn]

Hia... Hia who?