What does the scan prove? She survived the speed of light travel, being ripped apart on a molecular level, During the Madara battle she was crushed, and her bones didn't even break
Ay hitting the cliff made a larger impact than Tsunade hitting the cliff from the Magatama. Where does the Manga say or show that Liger Bomb is Ay's strongest attack? In terms of actually dealing damage Ay's Karate Chop>>Liger Bomb as the latter cracked Susanoo but the former ripped right through it.
Madara switched to a clone because of the pressure they all put on him obviously. If Tsunade was by herself she would get destroyed without him needing to feint them out. Not to mention that scenario and Tsunade being able to react to Ay's top speed don't correlate. I'm going to say this again. Someone faster than her w/ Sharingan failed to visually perceive Ay at top speed. She is NOT reacting.
How does Katsuyu help here? And pulverizing the terrain as a response to Ay's Shunshin only works if she can react to it in order to do that in the first place. Punching the ground before he comes at her isn't going to cause him to be unable to use Shunshin. His decapitation technique is a Double Lariat. You can't decapitate with a single lariat. Ay can factually cut using his chops so I have no idea why you bothered to bring this up.
-Suigetsu said Ay would've torn off his arms had he not been made of wate.r
-Cut Hachibi.
-Cut his hand.
Kabuto couldn't slice people in the heat of battle because his chakra scalpel wasn't that powerful until Part 2, has nothing to do with being in the heat of battle. The last paragraph also doesn't matter here because Ay's Karate Chop is a cutting technique. If a regular sword can cut without pushing the target back why would Ay's chop be any different here? His hand also isn't wider or larger than any of Tsunade's limbs or her body so why would energy per unit area be a viable argument here.
And I could easily say that If Madara could cut with his Susanoo he would've cut Tsunade instead of stabbing her, or something else that doesn't make sense. What Ay has done in the Manga has either worked, or what he has done failed without the possibility of a chop changing that.
Fact of the matter is, Ay's hand when coated in Raiton has cutting properties, which is why he was able to saw off his arm. Him putting more force behind that attack doesn't mean that it loses it's cutting properties. The fact he can do that while stationary and not adding as much force as he does for an actual attack only makes it that more likely that he can cut.
Even if he can't cut, he can still take off limbs as that scan with Suigetsu shows, and that was just his blunt force attack let alone an actual Karate Chop.
Could you highlight the cliff damage because it looks pretty similar to me. If that's the case, then the Magatamas would be stronger as they didn't crash into the wall. The crashed into Tsunade and Tsunade crashed into the wall. There is a displacement of force between the magatamas hitting Tsunade and her hitting the wall. That also means she took two incredibly powerful physical attacks without harm.
You know what I actually did agree with you that Tsunade isn't reacting to with V2 Ay. Sometimes I just try to see how far I can push limits. But I've just read each of Ay's fights over again.
This is what a V2 charge looks like
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Also this
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And this one too
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Now this is v1 Ay
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Now note the extended lightning tail emitted from Ay, which has only been seen while he is moving at his top speeds.
Note that the same tail is present when a lightened V1 Ay is
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I will grant you that Ay wasn't in V2 but I'd argue that he was moving at close to V2 speeds. Given that he sought to become faster than v1 in the battle and he partnered with Oonoki to do it.
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Therefore Ay is necessarily moving quicker than his V1 self.
Given the fact that Tsunade managed to appear from off panel to directly next to Madara's Susanoo before the raikage and tsuchikage began to fall, despite the fact that the raikage was weightened directly before making contact with the susanoo, suggests that Tsunade not only has the speed to deal with V1, but she could even deal with something faster. This is literally one of the greatest speed feats in the manga.
Ay doesn't use V2 for an extended period.
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I'd presume the reason why is because it consumes huge amounts of chakra to the point that he was emitting tailed beast levels when he fought Sasuke. This is the most apparent conclusion as he used V2 all of 0 times against Madara, instead preferring Oonoki's speed boost.
"Also this guy with sharingan didn't do it ergo no one else will" doesn't quite make sense.
After all there was nothing special about Minato's eyes that allowed him to perceive Ay, but he was more capable than Sasuke. The difference? Battle experience. Likewise, in order for Oonoki to time out his heavy weight rock techniques he'd also have to react to Ay's lightened speed. All of which goes to show the point that was being highlighted when Sasuke attacked the Gokage. The level of kage is a completely different playing field. A kage level ninja such as Oonoki could react to Ay. A kage level ninja such as Tsunade could attack in tandem with an Ay going fast enough to create an extended raiton tail. These, my friend, are the facts.
Take a sword, cut through a falling leaf, odds are it's not going to happen. Take the same sword and hack at a tree branch. I bet you the tree branch has more damage. Which has been the point I've been trying to make when you compare the Gyuki incident to him fighting Tsunade.
Now Ay was going to rip him apart because he was physically stronger. not relevant here.
Now Ay doesn't use his raiton for piercing power as he calls that Kakashi's trick implying he doesn't use it.
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So if he's not going for penetrative power the only way he is cutting. Though asuma suggest that the sharpening fuuton does is specific to wind release
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Leaving us to determine how Ay acquired the cutting ability displayed when he cut off his own arm. But failing to subsequently cut any other limbs of any persons in battle. Flashback or otherwise. Which is why I mentioned the difficulty of creating it mid battle. A problem Kabuto clearly describes about chakra scalpels.
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Why would Ay's hand be any different? Surface area.
Also may I remind you that the sword of kusunagi is heralded for it's sharpness. Even causing pain to Enma. And yes while this ultra sharp blade cut Tsunade it certainly didn't make it through her, whereas Sasuke bisected people with a sword as did the Anbu black ops.
You could say that but then I would say Madara did cut Tsunade... in half so... Why'd you bring Madara in as an example. I'd also further say that Madara wasn't in a fight for his life. I imagine dismembering Madara would have been very handy in sealing him. In fact I seem to recall a certain punch removing a portion of a body and the kages trying to seal Madara.
And what would Katsuyu do? I don't know may liquefy in all directions around Tsunade and channel reverse healing jutsu. Making it impossible for Ay to shunshin to Tsunade which leaves leaping towards her over the pool of katsuyu as his only option. Which would ultimately kill him as he landed inevitably in Katsuyu.
Edit: Also in terms of her monstrous strength. Let's be clear here. Ay would have to haul ass away from her to avoid her AoE . As it is notably similar to Sakura's according to Hashirama.
And in terms of Tsunade's place in the team battle. Oonoki and Ay are hanging back. Together they only accomplish taijutsu. And Ay has no cloak on and is flying suggesting that he did not participate in the most recent string of attacks.
Gaara was waiting to seal Madara, that is his part in the plan.
Now, it does look like Mei was putting in some work.
Which means that Tsunade would've have accomplished more than Ay did with the same support (Mei)
Could you highlight the cliff damage because it looks pretty similar to me. If that's the case, then the Magatamas would be stronger as they didn't crash into the wall. The crashed into Tsunade and Tsunade crashed into the wall. There is a displacement of force between the magatamas hitting Tsunade and her hitting the wall. That also means she took two incredibly powerful physical attacks without harm.
The damage streched all across the cliff as you can see messed up rock a few meters to the right of Ay in the panel I posted. That's already a larger impact then what Magatama did to Tsunade, but even if the Magatama were stronger it wouldn't change the main argument too much.
You know what I actually did agree with you that Tsunade isn't reacting to with V2 Ay. Sometimes I just try to see how far I can push limits. But I've just read each of Ay's fights over again.
This is what a V2 charge looks like
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Also this
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And this one too
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Now this is v1 Ay
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Now note the extended lightning tail emitted from Ay, which has only been seen while he is moving at his top speeds.
Note that the same tail is present when a lightened V1 Ay is
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I will grant you that Ay wasn't in V2 but I'd argue that he was moving at close to V2 speeds. Given that he sought to become faster than v1 in the battle and he partnered with Oonoki to do it.
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Therefore Ay is necessarily moving quicker than his V1 self.
Given the fact that Tsunade managed to appear from off panel to directly next to Madara's Susanoo before the raikage and tsuchikage began to fall, despite the fact that the raikage was weightened directly before making contact with the susanoo, suggests that Tsunade not only has the speed to deal with V1, but she could even deal with something faster. This is literally one of the greatest speed feats in the manga.
Lmao. No. It being V2 or V1 doesn't matter because Ay was flying using Onoki technique. His full speed is V2 Shunshin, not flight. Regardless of whether or not you think that is faster than V1. Him wanting to surpass his full speed doesn't mean he'll be constantly moving at speeds on that level. Even then the way you are analyzing that feat doesn't make sense.
Ay hit the Susanoo, then Tsunade followed up with a strike. There is no after action to compare her speed to. The bold doesn't work because there is no reason Ay would fall down because he can fly. Not to mention Ay free falling isn't Ay's speed, it's the speed gravity brings objects down at. Good speed feat, but nothing that proves she'll react to V2. She didn't strike the same time as Ay so that's not a feat that puts her on his level. "Coming off panel" isn't something worth mentioning because it hurts your argument. You have no idea when she left in the first place so how exactly are you calling this a speed feat worthy of proving your argument.
Ay doesn't use V2 for an extended period.
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I'd presume the reason why is because it consumes huge amounts of chakra to the point that he was emitting tailed beast levels when he fought Sasuke. This is the most apparent conclusion as he used V2 all of 0 times against Madara, instead preferring Oonoki's speed boost.
"Also this guy with sharingan didn't do it ergo no one else will" doesn't quite make sense.
After all there was nothing special about Minato's eyes that allowed him to perceive Ay, but he was more capable than Sasuke. The difference? Battle experience. Likewise, in order for Oonoki to time out his heavy weight rock techniques he'd also have to react to Ay's lightened speed. All of which goes to show the point that was being highlighted when Sasuke attacked the Gokage. The level of kage is a completely different playing field. A kage level ninja such as Oonoki could react to Ay. A kage level ninja such as Tsunade
could attack in tandem with an Ay going fast enough to create an extended raiton tail. These, my friend, are the facts.
Because no one stated "if the guy with the Sharingan couldn't do it, no one will". We are talking about Tsunade here. Not minato. Not anyone else but Tsunade so stop with the excuses. Sasuke is factually faster than Tsunade. Sasuke has the Sharingan on top of that. Sasuke couldn't perceive Ay, so why would the slower character w/o Sharingan be able to do so? Minato? Irrelevant, because Minato is actually far faster than Sasuke w/ or w/o Sharingan. And no, the difference isn't battle experience, the difference is speed. Mintao was far faster than Sasuke even w/ Sharingan thus he was able to perceive Ay.
So you can stop dancing around this point now.
Onoki doesn't need to react to Ay's full speed to use their combination attacks.
1. Ay blitzes.
2. Ay is about to strike.
3. Onoki makes him heavy again.
He's only reacting to his striking speed, not his actual movement speed. We already saw how he stopped right before punching Madara's Susanoo in the back. The only other time we see them use a combo attack Ay isn't even using his top speed, he's flying.
So no, these aren't the facts. You are skewing the facts to make Tsunade seem better than she really is.
Take a sword, cut through a falling leaf, odds are it's not going to happen. Take the same sword and hack at a tree branch. I bet you the tree branch has more damage. Which has been the point I've been trying to make when you compare the Gyuki incident to him fighting Tsunade.
No, he was going to rip his arms off because his arms weren't strong enough to resist said power, not just because he's physically stronger than him. Meaning Ay's hits can take off limbs if said limbs aren't strong enough to take them.
Now Ay doesn't use his raiton for piercing power as he calls that Kakashi's trick implying he doesn't use it.
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So if he's not going for penetrative power the only way he is cutting. Though asuma suggest that the sharpening fuuton does is specific to wind release
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Leaving us to determine how Ay acquired the cutting ability displayed when he cut off his own arm. But failing to subsequently cut any other limbs of any persons in battle. Flashback or otherwise. Which is why I mentioned the difficulty of creating it mid battle. A problem Kabuto clearly describes about chakra scalpels.
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Why would Ay's hand be any different? Surface area.
Nice try, but he said Raiton to increase penetration is Kakashi's trick. He doesn't pierce like Chidori does, he cuts as shown against Gyuki and when he cut his own arm off. That chakra scalpel point doesn't even refer cutting, it refers to internal damage. The scalpels chakra can't penetrate all the way down to the arteries, but Kabuto can actually cut things with it as shown in Part 2 in the midst of battle so this point doesn't even help.
And your surface area argument doesn't make sense. Surface area would only be an issue if the width of Ay's "blade" surpassed the size of his target. But Tsunade's limbs are wider than the edge of Ay's hand, so there's no reason why he won't cut through.
If a sword can cut Tsunade's limbs there is zero reason to believe that Ay's chop won't cut her.
Also may I remind you that the sword of kusunagi is heralded for it's sharpness. Even causing pain to Enma. And yes while this ultra sharp blade cut Tsunade it certainly didn't make it through her, whereas Sasuke bisected people with a sword as did the Anbu black ops.
He cut her through the chest. How is he going to cut her in half with a strike like that in the first place?
You could say that but then I would say Madara did cut Tsunade... in half so... Why'd you bring Madara in as an example. I'd also further say that Madara wasn't in a fight for his life. I imagine dismembering Madara would have been very handy in sealing him. In fact I seem to recall a certain punch removing a portion of a body and the kages trying to seal Madara.
But he didn't do it every other time he had the chance to do so, and I can cite many more examples.
But like I've already said, Ay had no chance to actually do any of this due to Susanoo so mentioning it is pointless.
And what would Katsuyu do? I don't know may liquefy in all directions around Tsunade and channel reverse healing jutsu. Making it impossible for Ay to shunshin to Tsunade which leaves leaping towards her over the pool of katsuyu as his only option. Which would ultimately kill him as he landed inevitably in Katsuyu.
So basically camp? And what if Ay were to do nothing? :lol Cause then Tsunade would waste all her chakra while Ay has to expend none. Or Ay can Shunshin at top speed, hit Tsunade and use the momentum behind that punch to drag her out of her healing circle.
Edit: Also in terms of her monstrous strength. Let's be clear here. Ay would have to haul ass away from her to avoid her AoE . As it is notably similar to Sakura's according to Hashirama.
Ay won't be in any danger when it comes to her AoE.
And in terms of Tsunade's place in the team battle. Oonoki and Ay are hanging back. Together they only accomplish taijutsu. And Ay has no cloak on and is flying suggesting that he did not participate in the most recent string of attacks.
Gaara was waiting to seal Madara, that is his part in the plan.
Now, it does look like Mei was putting in some work.
Which means that Tsunade would've have accomplished more than Ay did with the same support (Mei)
The damage streched all across the cliff as you can see messed up rock a few meters to the right of Ay in the panel I posted. That's already a larger impact then what Magatama did to Tsunade, but even if the Magatama were stronger it wouldn't change the main argument too much.
Lmao. No. It being V2 or V1 doesn't matter because Ay was flying using Onoki technique. His full speed is V2 Shunshin, not flight. Regardless of whether or not you think that is faster than V1. Him wanting to surpass his full speed doesn't mean he'll be constantly moving at speeds on that level. Even then the way you are analyzing that feat doesn't make sense.
Question 1: Has Ay ever left his Raiton cloak on when he's not using it?
No, of course not. Why would he leave on the cloak when it consumes large amounts of chakra?
Question 2: Does the Raiton Cloak increase strength?
There's no evidence of that whatsoever. In fact it has been referred to as a Lightning Release Body Flicker. Suggesting that it is used to gain speed.
Question 3: Why would one use a technique designed to increase their own speed if their speed is not a variable under there control?
They wouldn't. Oonoki wasn't flying. Ay jumped. Like he did here.
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Ay hit the Susanoo, then Tsunade followed up with a strike. There is no after action to compare her speed to. The bold doesn't work because there is no reason Ay would fall down because he can fly. Not to mention Ay free falling isn't Ay's speed, it's the speed gravity brings objects down at. Good speed feat, but nothing that proves she'll react to V2. She didn't strike the same time as Ay so that's not a feat that puts her on his level. "Coming off panel" isn't something worth mentioning because it hurts your argument. You have no idea when she left in the first place so how exactly are you calling this a speed feat worthy of proving your argument.
1. Oonoki weighted Ay.
2. Ay hit the Susanoo
3. While Ay was still in contact with the susanoo Tsunade hit the susanoo
That's enough to determine speed, chief. Given that Ay had been weighted he should have descended right after making contact. Yet before he started to descend Tsunade made contact.
Let me express this another way.
Madara visual acuity is on another tier He was able to react to Ay's fastest shot.
Madara was originally facing Tsunade's direction.
His eyes turned toward Ay when Ay struck Susanoo
He was then unaware of Tsunade right before she hit him, still glancing over his shoulder.
Further, it helps my case if you think even just a little.
Ay was in frame. Tsunade was not.
That means that she traveled further than his original location (in the panel) before he began to fall.
To phrase it another way. The very least distance she could have traveled is that which is captured by the frame.
Because no one stated "if the guy with the Sharingan couldn't do it, no one will". We are talking about Tsunade here. Not minato. Not anyone else but Tsunade so stop with the excuses. Sasuke is factually faster than Tsunade. Sasuke has the Sharingan on top of that. Sasuke couldn't perceive Ay, so why would the slower character w/o Sharingan be able to do so? Minato? Irrelevant, because Minato is actually far faster than Sasuke w/ or w/o Sharingan. And no, the difference isn't battle experience, the difference is speed. Mintao was far faster than Sasuke even w/ Sharingan thus he was able to perceive Ay.
This is obviously horse shit. Your general argument was that Tsunade could not percieve what an eye designed to track speed could not. Thus the crux of your argument isn't Tsunade. It is the power of an eye that was designed to track speed. And because that eye failed you argue that eyes that are not designed for that purpose would fail too specifically Tsunade's. Don't bullshit me. That is how the logic is ultimately strung together.
Sasuke has far less experience than Tsunade. To the point that two different characters suggested that this version Sasuke in question only defeated a sannin because Oro was on his deathbed. That is the obvious difference despite your posturing.
As far as Minato being faster. God that's a dumb argument. Minato being faster makes his eyes no more capable. Nothing about his foot speed coorelates with visual acuity. But if that is the argument you'd want to present, I'd simply argue that Tsunade moved at the speed of light and was able to fire off an attack immediately. What kind of visual acuity allows that?
So you can stop dancing around this point now.
Onoki doesn't need to react to Ay's full speed to use their combination attacks.
1. Ay blitzes.
2. Ay is about to strike.
3. Onoki makes him heavy again.
He's only reacting to his striking speed, not his actual movement speed. We already saw how he stopped right before punching Madara's Susanoo in the back. The only other time we see them use a combo attack Ay isn't even using his top speed, he's flying.
Yeah i just debunked that flying thing. So I'll take this argument too.
Except your point doesn't hold because the difference between Ay's hand and Tsunade's body isn't the same as the edge of a sword and a falling leaf.
No, he was going to rip his arms off because his arms weren't strong enough to resist said power, not just because he's physically stronger than him. Meaning Ay's hits can take off limbs if said limbs aren't strong enough to take them.
KG, just stop.
Physically stronger raikage's chop was blocked by Suigetsu. Suigetsu said his arms would have been ripped off as stopping raikage's strength and downward momentum would have ripped his arms out of socket. Because he didn't have the strength to compete with Raikage. If Suigetsu had blocked Ino's attack he never would have made that statement because he can overpower her.
Nice try, but he said Raiton to increase penetration is Kakashi's trick. He doesn't pierce like Chidori does, he cuts as shown against Gyuki and when he cut his own arm off. That chakra scalpel point doesn't even refer cutting, it refers to internal damage. The scalpels chakra can't penetrate all the way down to the arteries, but Kabuto can actually cut things with it as shown in Part 2 in the midst of battle so this point doesn't even help.
I'm pretty sure that I said piercing power which is the same as penetration. There was no trick you just didn't read for comprehension. But it doesn't really matter Ay hacking people apart in the heat of battle is fanfic. And if you argue against I'd simply point out the cannon directly states that Tsunade can regrow organs and limbs.
And your surface area argument doesn't make sense. Surface area would only be an issue if the width of Ay's "blade" surpassed the size of his target. But Tsunade's limbs are wider than the edge of Ay's hand, so there's no reason why he won't cut through.
No that's not how it works. You can cut a grape a blade meant to dice. And you can try with a butter knife. But the butter knife will be significantly more difficult than the other knife because its blade is wider. And it certainly wouldn't happen at all if the grape was not flush against a surface.
If a sword can cut Tsunade's limbs there is zero reason to believe that Ay's chop won't cut her.
Yeah but he did it once. Now when would Ay have had the opportunity? I don't know maybe he could've chopped Juugo, or Suigetsu. Or I don't know instead of trying to punch Madara maybe he could have gone in for the slice?
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Your analogy sucks.
So basically camp? And what if Ay were to do nothing? :lol Cause then Tsunade would waste all her chakra while Ay has to expend none. Or Ay can Shunshin at top speed, hit Tsunade and use the momentum behind that punch to drag her out of her healing circle.
No reason she couldn't camp. Also no reason to believe that Ay can withstand any duration of reverse healing. It's why I mention how effortlessly Tsunade healed Shikamaru. Her medical skills are kage level.
B crossed this distance in Base.
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Ay won't be in any danger when it comes to her AoE.
Madara switched to a clone because of the pressure they all put on him obviously. If Tsunade was by herself she would get destroyed without him needing to feint them out. Not to mention that scenario and Tsunade being able to react to Ay's top speed don't correlate. I'm going to say this again. Someone faster than her w/ Sharingan failed to visually perceive Ay at top speed. She is NOT reacting.
Question 1: Has Ay ever left his Raiton cloak on when he's not using it?
No, of course not. Why would he leave on the cloak when it consumes large amounts of chakra?
Question 2: Does the Raiton Cloak increase strength?
There's no evidence of that whatsoever. In fact it has been referred to as a Lightning Release Body Flicker. Suggesting that it is used to gain speed.
Question 3: Why would one use a technique designed to increase their own speed if their speed is not a variable under there control?
They wouldn't. Oonoki wasn't flying. Ay jumped. Like he did here.
He is blatantly shown to fly. Ay and Onoki came at Madara's Susanoo in a straight line. There is nothing he can jump off of to come at Madara in a straight line. Not sure what type of nonsense you are trying to argue now but you should probably cut the BS. I am definitely not interested in hearing your dumb interpretation of the Manga.
Raiton Armor coats his body in Raiton, which increases the penetrative power of his Karate Chop, so that alone invalidates half of your argument: That Ay using the cloak was pointless, thus he must've used Shunshin.
1. Oonoki weighted Ay.
2. Ay hit the Susanoo
3. While Ay was still in contact with the susanoo Tsunade hit the susanoo
That's enough to determine speed, chief. Given that Ay had been weighted he should have descended right after making contact. Yet before he started to descend Tsunade made contact.
And once again, if that is your speed feat then it's pretty apparent how desperate you're getting. Being able to strike before Ay can fall isn't a speed feat that lets her react to his top speed. Ay being weighted is irrelevant. All things fall at the same rate no matter their weight, and outspeeding that rate isn't something to applaud.
Then we have the fact that Onoki only weightens Ay for the strike itself. Not before the strike and not after the strike. So that's two fronts where you have no real argument.
Let me express this another way.
Madara visual acuity is on another tier He was able to react to Ay's fastest shot.
So how does her traveling that distance before Ay can fall mean that she can react to his top speed?
Oh wait. :lol It doesn't. So you can stop now. Please.
This is obviously horse shit. Your general argument was that Tsunade could not percieve what an eye designed to track speed could not. Thus the crux of your argument isn't Tsunade. It is the power of an eye that was designed to track speed. And because that eye failed you argue that eyes that are not designed for that purpose would fail too specifically Tsunade's. Don't bullshit me. That is how the logic is ultimately strung together.
Sasuke has far less experience than Tsunade. To the point that two different characters suggested that this version Sasuke in question only defeated a sannin because Oro was on his deathbed. That is the obvious difference despite your posturing.
I always knew you were a fanboy for Tsunade but I didn't think you were the type of fanboy who'd outright make stupid ass arguments like this when he realizes he has no way to continue to argue points logically.
-Sharingan itself is irrelevant. Sharingan's enhancement to Sasuke's own natural speed is the important part.
-Sasuke w/ (or without as per Databook) Sharingan factually has superior reflexes to Tsunade yet he could not visually process the Raikage's speed. So why would Tsunade who is slower than Sasuke in terms of reaction speed AND WITHOUT a special eye be able to react?
Give me a real answer and not this horseshit nonsense "experience" argument. Experience isn't power. Experience isn't speed. That's the end of that story so please don't mention that nonsense again.
As far as Minato being faster. God that's a dumb argument. Minato being faster makes his eyes no more capable. Nothing about his foot speed coorelates with visual acuity. But if that is the argument you'd want to present, I'd simply argue that Tsunade moved at the speed of light and was able to fire off an attack immediately. What kind of visual acuity allows that?
Are you stupid? Or are you just trolling at this point? Who said Minato being able to run faster means he perceives things better than someone who can run slower? The faster your reflexes and synapses the faster things you can visually perceive. That's a fact and please don't try to argue it. That's why The Flash can perceive things in slow motion with regular eyes, because his reflexes and synapses fire off that fast. That's why Minato perceives better than MS Sasuke, because regardless of the boost Sharingan gives him Minato's reflexes are still superior. That's why Ay perceives better than Minato. That's why your precious Tsunade isn't perceiving something someone far faster than her couldn't percieve.
:lol And what type of garbage ass argument is this? You were doing semi bad up until now. Now you are just doing bad. Tsunade was teleported to the battlefield at the speed of light AND AFTER SHE HAD ARRIVED she struck. That requires no special reflexes. What she does after the teleportation doesn't correlate with the teleportation itself. Maybe if she was moving at the speed of light WHILE she attacked you'd have a point.
But she wasn't, so you don't. Don't come at me out of the side of your neck when you have nothing but trash tier argumentation to back up your trash talk.
KG, just stop.
Physically stronger raikage's chop was blocked by Suigetsu. Suigetsu said his arms would have been ripped off as stopping raikage's strength and downward momentum would have ripped his arms out of socket. Because he didn't have the strength to compete with Raikage. If Suigetsu had blocked Ino's attack he never would have made that statement because he can overpower her.
Ino doesn't have the physical power to rip Suigetsu's arms off. Ay has the physical power to rip Tsunade's arms off as she is not durable enough to take it. Being overpowered means that Suigetsu loses the power struggle. That doesn't explain why his arms get ripped off so let's cut the bullshit now. :lol Damage taken and durability are directly related. Not damage taken and physical strength of person taking said damage.
I'm pretty sure that I said piercing power which is the same as penetration. There was no trick you just didn't read for comprehension. But it doesn't really matter Ay hacking people apart in the heat of battle is fanfic. And if you argue against I'd simply point out the cannon directly states that Tsunade can regrow organs and limbs.
If you read, something I figure you have a hard time doing when it's a post against your favorite, you'd realize I mentioned and emphasized penetration because you are foolishly trying to say "because Kakashi uses Raikiri to pierce, and Ay said it was his trick, that he can't use his Raiton to cut" even though cutting and piercing are not the same action.
-Ay's chops cut.
-Raikiri pierces.
"Ay cutting people in heat of battle is fanfic"
No, it's not. Ay can cut. That's a fact. Ay has cut things out and in battle. Fact. Ay cut off his arm. Fact. Him being in battle doesn't change the workings of his jutsu. Fact. Your only argument at this point is "Ay didn't do it on panel so he can't". :lol Hilarious if you think this shit will fly here.
No that's not how it works. You can cut a grape a blade meant to dice. And you can try with a butter knife. But the butter knife will be significantly more difficult than the other knife because its blade is wider. And it certainly wouldn't happen at all if the grape was not flush against a surface.
He CUT her twice across the chest. Where did he actually go for any type of bisection or where was his sword even shown to extend far enough for bisection? Never. Ever. So stop trying to argue something as stupid and moronic as "Kusanagi can't cut Tsunade in half".
Not to mention he was swinging with his mouth, not with his hands. So can we stop now?
Yeah but he did it once. Now when would Ay have had the opportunity? I don't know maybe he could've chopped Juugo, or Suigetsu. Or I don't know instead of trying to punch Madara maybe he could have gone in for the slice?
No, it really doesn't. He did it once. He had many opportunities to do it before but he didn't. Ay's hand cuts. Tsunade's body isn't going to get cut just because you don't want it to. Not how it works my guy. If this is the level of argumentation you were going to stoop down to you never should've replied to my post. :lol There's more than enough garbage argumentation going around the VS Section to spare.
No reason she couldn't camp. Also no reason to believe that Ay can withstand any duration of reverse healing. It's why I mention how effortlessly Tsunade healed Shikamaru. Her medical skills are kage level.
If Tsunade is camping in that encampment and Ay wants to wait her out he has no reason to enter said field in the first place, but as I've already mentioned that doesn't matter.
How did Bee do that? Did he run on air? Or did he use the smoke cover to get away while everyone else was busy getting out of dodge?
Then as usual it's a terrible argument from you. Please stop arguing because I even think you yourself know that you don't make sense here and are just carrying this on to see if I'll miracuously concede.
And in terms of Tsunade's place in the team battle. Oonoki and Ay are hanging back. Together they only accomplish taijutsu. And Ay has no cloak on and is flying suggesting that he did not participate in the most recent string of attacks.
Gaara was waiting to seal Madara, that is his part in the plan.
Now, it does look like Mei was putting in some work.
Which means that Tsunade would've have accomplished more than Ay did with the same support (Mei)
None of that is relevant to speed. Tsunade accomplishing more than Ay did with the same support simply means that Tsunade + Mei is a better combo than Ay + Mei. Nothing more, nothing less. Stop trying to turn that event into something more than it is.
1. I cant see how Tsunade attacking with and actively keeping up with the Ay+Onoki combination is not a speed feet. It boggles my mind how you can say her brain wont be able to keep up when it fact she did do just that. When you attack an opponent together(Especially in close combat) the people attacking need to at least be in the same ball park of reaction and speed to do it. Thats simply logic.
2. Light speed transmission puts Tsunade's durability up there in the 3rd raikage conversation. Its funny how the point has always been 'Well she is not as durable as Ay' actively ignoring that she still survived it with cuts when
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the only reason 3rd Raikage survived it is because of his extra-tough physique meaning Tsunade herself has an extra-tough physique as opposed to regular physique bodies who have their
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. So comparing her to Suigestu is just so incorrect :lol. (And no before we get triggered I am not saying Tsunade has the same durability as the 3rd Raikage but because she survived it she is in the same ball park)
Tsunade is physically stronger than Ay too so she specifically is not getting her arms torn off as you would need to overpower your opponent tremendously to do that.
3. Ay cut Hachibi's horn off because Ay's cutting force could be applied fully. Hachibi was tied down and Ay's power from the technique wouldnt be able to move just the horn as it was attached to Hachibi's body. If we applied this situation to Tsunade she would be pushed from the force. The power from his attack overcomes Tsunade's body weight pushing her and in essence doesnt allow the cutting force to be fully applied.
We have seen his chop in V2
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ribcage susano and hit Sasuke yet there was no cut through Sasuke's body however it did push Sasuke as I said it would against Tsunade.
We have only seen him cut through a limb while standing still and applying it to his hand however I dont have to tell you that Tsunade would never let this happen.
Are we really going to do this? Are we really? Are you serious? And you are the guy who complains about Tsunade being underrated. :lol Do you guys really just say stupid shit and think anyone in their right mind will concede?
1. I cant see how Tsunade attacking with and actively keeping up with the Ay+Onoki combination is not a speed feet. It boggles my mind how you can say her brain wont be able to keep up when it fact she did do just that. When you attack an opponent together(Especially in close combat) the people attacking need to at least be in the same ball park of reaction and speed to do it. Thats simply logic.
Stop being an idiot before you start to talk about logic. Especially since that didn't work out too well for you last time you tried to claim Oxygen reduces the pH of Acid Mist. :lol
She was never shown to keep up with them. Ay and Onoki struck Susanoo, then she struck right after. Only if you can show that Tsunade and Ay/Onoki left at the same time, with a similar distance in between them at least AND that Ay was moving as fast as he possibly could, only then would you be able to claim something as stupid as "Tsunade can keep up with the Ay+Onoki".
And no, that's not logic. That's something you ripped out of your *******. I'll repeat this one more time so you and that clown can understand, k? MS Sasuke is far faster than Tsunade. DB gives Beginning of Part 2 Sasuke a higher speed stat than Tsunade by a whole point. That rates reaction speed and movement speed. Throw MS on top of that. Sasuke is faster than Tsunade. Sasuke COULD NOT PERCEIVE AY. SOMEONE SLOWER DOES NOT DO THE SAME THING.
Hilarious. "Tsunade was keeping up with the full speed of a combination that is far faster at it's peak than what she was stated to be slower than already" One of you better get me some real speed feats and not this weak nonsense.
2. Light speed transmission puts Tsunade's durability up there in the 3rd raikage conversation. Its funny how the point has always been 'Well she is not as durable as Ay' actively ignoring that she still survived it with cuts when
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the only reason 3rd Raikage survived it is because of his extra-tough physique meaning Tsunade herself has an extra-tough physique as opposed to regular physique bodies who have their
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. So comparing her to Suigestu is just so incorrect :lol. (And no before we get triggered I am not saying Tsunade has the same durability as the 3rd Raikage but because she survived it she is in the same ball park)
Tsunade is physically stronger than Ay too so she specifically is not getting her arms torn off as you would need to overpower your opponent tremendously to do that.
Are you joking? Let's use common sense. What Mabui said is irrelevant. She survived it with damage. Ay survived it in Base with no damage. Ay in Base is far more durable than Base Tsunade let alone Ay's father, who is far more durable in Base than Ay is in his armor let alone Base.
I mean, there's no way you actually typed this and didn't think it sounded stupid. "Same ballpark" my ass. :lol Spare me the jokes.
And no, only if you were in a power struggle and only then would you be able to overpower, but if Ay actually hits her hard enough with a chop the result will be the same. Being physically stronger doesn't negate damage, especially when he's coming at her at speeds she can't react to.
3. Ay cut Hachibi's horn off because Ay's cutting force could be applied fully. Hachibi was tied down and Ay's power from the technique wouldnt be able to move just the horn as it was attached to Hachibi's body. If we applied this situation to Tsunade she would be pushed from the force. The power from his attack overcomes Tsunade's body weight pushing her and in essence doesnt allow the cutting force to be fully applied.
Why are you guys making these weak excuses? Regular swords don't need to hold down a target to cut them. Why would Tsunade not be cut by Ay's hand? Don't argue "It can't cut like a sword" we SAW that it can when he cut his arm off.
We have seen his chop in V2
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ribcage susano and hit Sasuke yet there was no cut through Sasuke's body however it did push Sasuke as I said it would against Tsunade.
:lol Because Susanoo blocked most of the attack, so obviously Sasuke isn't going to be seriously damaged. Terrible example.
We have only seen him cut through a limb while standing still and applying it to his hand however I dont have to tell you that Tsunade would never let this happen.
Then instead of making dumb arguments like "he can't because I said so" like your buddy Tazilla up there, start telling me WHY SHE WON'T LET IT HAPPEN. That's usually how VS Matches work.
But if you were going to regurgitate the same argumentation as your buddy up there not sure why you even bothered to post.
Smh One day we have Paws debating for Tsunade against and unrestricted Kisame, then we have him argue for her against the likes of Gaara, Onoki, and Ay. Wank should have a limit.
Smh One day we have Paws debating for Tsunade against and unrestricted Kisame, then we have him argue for her against the likes of Gaara, Onoki, and Ay. Wank should have a limit.
Lol Kratos still mad I wrecked you in that debate huh?
Maybe read the thread. She doesnt beat Onoki, if you actually read you would see that. Please dont reply to me I dont have time to deal with someone who talk shits without reading anything in the slightest.
Yes we are and you need to chill. I'll get back to you.
Lol Kratos still mad I wrecked you in that debate huh?
Maybe read the thread. She doesnt beat Onoki, if you actually read you would see that. Please dont reply to me I dont have time to deal with someone who talk shits without reading anything in the slightest.
Yes we are and you need to chill. I'll get back to you.
Lol Kratos still mad I wrecked you in that debate huh?
Maybe read the thread. She doesnt beat Onoki, if you actually read you would see that. Please dont reply to me I dont have time to deal with someone who talk shits without reading anything in the slightest.
I'm not sure you realize where they are in fact fighting. Somehow when you look at the scan you don't see the entire landscape. Rather only whats zoomed in on.
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They are clearly fighting near the meteor. And near tall rocky structures
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And before you try to say Not sure what type of nonsense you are trying to argue now but you should probably cut the BS. I am definitely not interested in hearing your dumb interpretation of the Manga.
I'll just accept the fact that your abilities to put yourself into the world are not as sharp as mine.
Raiton Armor coats his body in Raiton, which increases the penetrative power of his Karate Chop, so that alone invalidates half of your argument: That Ay using the cloak was pointless, thus he must've used Shunshin.
Yeah no. Your grasping for straws here. We literally covered the fact that AY doesn't use raiton to boost his penetrative power. Hence why he called it Kakashi's trick. I'm not reposting the image since I've already countered that. Also how stupid, he wanted to increase the penetrating power of a punch the size of Naruto's face? That's not penetrating anything, unless its flush against something else. Like when it happened to Juugo, however what would happen otherwise? Oh I don't maybe what happens whenever raikage punches or elbows someone, they fly away instead of being penetrated. I would assume he's worked this bit of his power out himself. So why exactly would he be trying to penetrate in mid air with a fist?
And once again, if that is your speed feat then it's pretty apparent how desperate you're getting. Being able to strike before Ay can fall isn't a speed feat that lets her react to his top speed. Ay being weighted is irrelevant. All things fall at the same rate no matter their weight, and outspeeding that rate isn't something to applaud.
Your very intent on not connecting dots. There is the fact that she came in before gravity took effect. Yet in the very next scan of them gravity has begun to take effect on all the kage.
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With Raikage's sleeve and Oonoki's hair blowing upward because they are beginning to descend. And while saying so what what he hadn't begun to fall. I think your question is how fast were they falling but the fact is that to not be falling at all so that their hair or sleeve isn't affected means less than a second. Further we know the snapshot between the kick and the next frame of all three kage falling happened quickly because Madara was shown as a blur.
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Madara barely got his ribbing up in time. Which by this point he was fully aware he needed in order to counter Tsunade's strength.Again indicating the speed with which she swung
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Then we have the fact that Onoki only weightens Ay for the strike itself. Not before the strike and not after the strike. So that's two fronts where you have no real argument.
Well, no shit sherlock. Why would he weighten Ay before the strike when Ay is using Oonoki to get more speed as I showed you in a scan right above. Damn. You really don't understand what Ay and Oonoki were doing as a two man team do you?
Also it's very obvious that Oonoki reacted to Ay as Ay did not simply stand behind Madara the first time the teamed up. In fact, Ay was moving when Oonoki started his jutsu before Ay reached Madz and it finished at the same time Ay's punch connected.
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I don't know where you got the stupid idea that Oonoki wasn't working with Ay's top speed and that Ay just sat behind Madara while Oonoki performed the technique
Yup.
Yup.
Because he was looking at Ay. Where is this precious speed feat you speak of?
One would think that a man who dodges Gaara's sand without looking and dominates a crowd like this doesn't let his gaze linger when fighting multiple opponents.
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True.
That much is obvious.
So how does her traveling that distance before Ay can fall mean that she can react to his top speed?
Oh wait. :lol It doesn't. So you can stop now. Please.
Because so little time had passed that Ay was actually still attacking... unless your willing to argue that his chop speed is so slow that Tsunade can come from a minimum distance is nearly the same distance the raikage traveled and strike in the time between his beginning and his he finishing of his strike
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I always knew you were a fanboy for Tsunade but I didn't think you were the type of fanboy who'd outright make stupid ass arguments like this when he realizes he has no way to continue to argue points logically.
Yeah yeah, fanboy this fanboy that. Except only one of us actually has detailed scans to back them up while the other just denies. For instance. "There is nothing to jump off of." Clearly a giant ass meteor and other large stones around. But hey yeah there is absolutely nothing there.
-Sharingan itself is irrelevant. Sharingan's enhancement to Sasuke's own natural speed is the important part.
-Sasuke w/ (or without as per Databook) Sharingan factually has superior reflexes to Tsunade yet he could not visually process the Raikage's speed. So why would Tsunade who is slower than Sasuke in terms of reaction speed AND WITHOUT a special eye be able to react?
Then why'd you bring up the sharingan and bring up that they are eyes designed to see speed and imply that there is no way Tsunade's eyes would keep up. You literally have no frame of reference for that argument besides the databook. And now to the databook. My argument toward the databook is two fold. One Tsunade's entry in the third databook didn't update her at all. Example: Tsunade used Remote Healing during the Pein arc. That jutsu didn't make an appearance in a databook til the fourth databook. There was no new information added about her. So naturally the databook numbers didn't change.
However, there's also this idea of the order of the canon and at the top of the order is the manga.
Give me a real answer and not this horseshit nonsense "experience" argument. Experience isn't power. Experience isn't speed. That's the end of that story so please don't mention that nonsense again.
Tell me more about your fighting experience. Tell me more about how about how speed is the only thing that matters, please. Meanwhile this Martial Arts Instructor will be telling that you know nothing, if you think experience isn't power.
Are you stupid? Or are you just trolling at this point? Who said Minato being able to run faster means he perceives things better than someone who can run slower?
I assumed you were referring to Minato's shunshin.
The faster your reflexes and synapses the faster things you can visually perceive. That's a fact and please don't try to argue it. That's why The Flash can perceive things in slow motion with regular eyes, because his reflexes and synapses fire off that fast. That's why Minato perceives better than MS Sasuke, because regardless of the boost Sharingan gives him Minato's reflexes are still superior. That's why Ay perceives better than Minato. That's why your precious Tsunade isn't perceiving something someone far faster than her couldn't percieve.
But now check this out. We've already established that Tsunade can react to Ay's striking speed. (given the fact that she attacked while Ay was still atacking. Oh and this.)
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Well, necessarily to hit someone you must strike them. And if Tsunade can close the minimum distance that can be inferred from this scan, and connect an attack while Ay is still attacking. She can get a counter hit in if Ay runs in and attacks her, as she has already shown herself of connecting a hit while Ay is attacking.
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:lol And what type of garbage ass argument is this? You were doing semi bad up until now. Now you are just doing bad. Tsunade was teleported to the battlefield at the speed of light AND AFTER SHE HAD ARRIVED she struck. That requires no special reflexes. What she does after the teleportation doesn't correlate with the teleportation itself. Maybe if she was moving at the speed of light WHILE she attacked you'd have a point.
Well I was being purposefully ridiculous to match the stupidity you've been uttering. IT was intentional to let you know how you sound to me.
But she wasn't, so you don't. Don't come at me out of the side of your neck when you have nothing but trash tier argumentation to back up your trash talk.
Literally holes in in the vast majority of your arguments
Ino doesn't have the physical power to rip Suigetsu's arms off. Ay has the physical power to rip Tsunade's arms off as she is not durable enough to take it. Being overpowered means that Suigetsu loses the power struggle. That doesn't explain why his arms get ripped off so let's cut the bullshit now. :lol Damage taken and durability are directly related. Not damage taken and physical strength of person taking said damage.
RedRobin already said what I had to say about this so I won't waste my time repeating him.
If you read, something I figure you have a hard time doing when it's a post against your favorite, you'd realize I mentioned and emphasized penetration because you are foolishly trying to say "because Kakashi uses Raikiri to pierce, and Ay said it was his trick, that he can't use his Raiton to cut" even though cutting and piercing are not the same action.
-Ay's chops cut.
-Raikiri pierces.
"Ay cutting people in heat of battle is fanfic"
No, it's not. Ay can cut. That's a fact. Ay has cut things out and in battle. Fact. Ay cut off his arm. Fact. Him being in battle doesn't change the workings of his jutsu. Fact. Your only argument at this point is "Ay didn't do it on panel so he can't". :lol Hilarious if you think this shit will fly here.
Eh that wasn't what I was saying Just a typo from typing early in the morning. I was saying then Ay must use a different method to cut. As cutting is an extension of piercing. As to cut one must first pierce the surface of a thing.
Examples of this Raikiri and its variations be used to cut and slash
3rd Raikage's nukite cutting the rubber ball
The bold are words I'm not sure you understand the definitions of.
I'm pretty sure that is always the only argument accepted here. Lest I bring up Tsunade's 4 elements. As if it probably happened off panel is a way to state a fact :lol
Where did I need to establish such? Oh wait, never. :lol Spare me son.
Well boy, when you said if the Kusunagi can cut her then so can Ay that would be a direct comparison between the two. Unless of course you comparing his cutting power to that of madara's susanoo
If a sword can cut Tsunade's limbs there is zero reason to believe that Ay's chop won't cut her.
There are literally only two swords you can be talking about. Take your pick.
He CUT her twice across the chest. Where did he actually go for any type of bisection or where was his sword even shown to extend far enough for bisection? Never. Ever. So stop trying to argue something as stupid and moronic as "Kusanagi can't cut Tsunade in half".
Do you know the definition of accross? Do you know the definition of through? I'm not sure you do. Orochimaru's blade went across her chest then tried to go through it. It didn't go across it was clearly moving to go through. And don't give me that it's because it was the chest bull shit because it certainly didn't save he guy on the left.
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Not to mention he was swinging with his mouth, not with his hands. So can we stop now?
So? he can casually lift people with his tongue. I mean after all Orochimaru's head was strong enough for this
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Speaking about Orochimaru's anatomy like its similar to any other character in the NV
No, it really doesn't. He did it once. He had many opportunities to do it before but he didn't. Ay's hand cuts. Tsunade's body isn't going to get cut just because you don't want it to. Not how it works my guy. If this is the level of argumentation you were going to stoop down to you never should've replied to my post. :lol There's more than enough garbage argumentation going around the VS Section to spare.
i mean it doesn't cut whenever. Certainly not in the heat of battle.
If Tsunade is camping in that encampment and Ay wants to wait her out he has no reason to enter said field in the first place, but as I've already mentioned that doesn't matter.
Then answer the question of how he got to the other side when in his v1 state he could be tracked by Sasuke's sharingan. Yet for some reason Sasuke couldn't see him running away in base?
Then as usual it's a terrible argument from you. Please stop arguing because I even think you yourself know that you don't make sense here and are just carrying this on to see if I'll miracuously concede.
I mean yes, I'm toying with you but only because you don't see how foolishly flawed your arguments are
None of that is relevant to speed. Tsunade accomplishing more than Ay did with the same support simply means that Tsunade + Mei is a better combo than Ay + Mei. Nothing more, nothing less. Stop trying to turn that event into something more than it is.
No, what it does mean is that Tsunade is far more competent in CQC than Ay is to push him with the same support Ay got. As Ay and Tsunade both specialize in CQC. Which is already a given considering it wasn't Ay attacking with everyone else backing him. And that my friend is why experience is power. Because yes, the raikage is faster than Tsunade but that doesn't mean he with the assistance of Mei can push Madara into a corner.
Of course with all of this said I doubt you get what I'm arguing.
Because I'm not arguing Tsunade is faster than Ay. But I would be arguing that in the same vein as Oonoki using his jutsu while Ay is in motion having it perfectly time with Ay's attack, or in the vein pf Gaara blocking the Guillotine drop, that Tsunade won't be just getting beat unable to respond whatsoever. No kage level ninja has failed to react. Bee in base even reacted to Minato's speed which is superior than Ay's. Being at that level is a different benchmark.
There is no kage Ay just plows through.
