Tsunade and Saukra vs Deidara and Kakuzu

[Tazzilla88]

Argumentum ad Ignorantiam: (appeal to ignorance) the fallacy that a proposition is true simply on the basis that it has not been proved false or that it is false simply because it has not been proved true



One question..do you honestly think at that time the 'Genin' rank was an appropriate rank for Gaara?

Moving on, I honestly don't know why you keep bringing these up. Formidable genin? Gaara was literally stronger than all of them. You honestly think Gaara would have compared his strength to anyone else other than Naruto? He'll compare himself to Kiba and Shikamaru? Please don't forget at that point, Gaara was a jinchuriki. Large chakra pool that most definitely can't be compared to ordinary genin.

Well genin isn't just about power level as Shikamaru was not the strongest of the Rookie 9. Knowing however, that Shikamaru's power was enough to qualify him as a chuunin allows us to set into motion a minimum power level necessary to understand what a chuunin's power looks like. By this standard we can assess Kiba and Neji were of Chunnin power at least. Factoring Naruto who had a Boss Summon and Tajuu Kage Bunshin No Jutsu these two are enough to push him high chuunin to jonnin. Gaara would be in the same category with Shukaku and Sand Tsunami.

He had killed 6 ninja's who made an attempt at taking his life. The word used was assassination meaning those ninja's were all probably ranked higher than Jounin's. And that's just the assassins..he also killed Dosu, killed those ninjas in the forest of death..etc. What jutsu did he use to kill all those people? Sand coffin. His obvious signature move at the time. It was also stated in the forest of death that his personal sand reeked of blood buttressing the fact that it was more or less his signature move.

I'd like to see the string in logic that suggests Assassin = Jounin. I'll wait. Naruto as a genin with no more than shadow clone jutsu was capable of killing Mizuki, I fail to see your point. What does killing Gennin and having a signature move mean. Now the fact that his sand reeks of blood certainly suggests that he usually uses his gourd sand. If creating sand was so instant why not just turn the ground beneath and around his opponents into sand? Because it was a new ability Kishi was showing.

Now what you're suggesting is that Gaara would get on the battlefield and immediately start prepping sand because Konoha looked to have sent out a strong genin team comprising of 90% members he was undoubtedly stronger than? Let's factor in the fact Konoha had seen the sound four in action and given the sand siblings info about them, they wouldn't have given them any info about Kimi because he literally joined the sasuke escort team far later.

You're missing the point by a mile now. He was requested from another village for a JOUNIN ranked mission. That is the main point. The supplementary information is that a strong team had been sent out including someone stronger than him. And they still needed back up. All the other information about the other members of that squad who at least displayed chuunin levels of power, only lend to the fact that they were no ordinary gennin. The rookie 9 throughout the whole chuunin exam were portrayed to be particularly stronger than past generations of gennin. Gaara may have been stronger than most of them, but he could recognize they weren't slouches. No reason not to come to a battle serious. It was after all a JOUNIN mission. What was undoubtedly relayed to the Sand was that 2 JOUNIN had been hospitalized by this group of criminals (the Sound Four).

Now let's work through this logically. Gaara is facing opponents that defeated 2 Jounin. He has one thing to attack. Incidentally, he has one thing to defend with. He has no knowledge about the opponent before him but perhaps presumes he aided in taking down the 2 Jounin. Now having this set of information. Would Gaara A) Limit his amount of offensive and Defensive Options or B) Expand his amount of offensive and Defensive Options. I don't know this is a real quandary. Well let's see, if you were fighting and you knew you're life was on the line. You know that someone who fought and beat you without killing intent is on this mission, and was deemed inadequate to tackle the threat of this mission despite having support, would you want to run low on supplies, or would you want to be prepared for anything. Let's add an extra wrinkle. You were given information on the abilities of four opponents. You don't recognize this as one of those four opponents but this seems to be the same mission. Now having no information on the power level of this particular opponent nor having any information about his abilities, yet knowing this is a JOUNIN mission what do you presume. Upon arrival you notice that someone you fought before is fighting this opponent and is failing. You note that they are injured/ not capable to performing in the light you saw them in before. You don't know the immediate cause of this, whether the opponent caused this or not. Now, would you choose A or B?

To then assume Gaara reaching the battlefield and seeing an opponent for the first time, knowing absolutely nothing about him, but thinks he'll be able to escape his sand coffin -which was his signature move at the time- and starts prepping sand in anticipation is almost bordering on ridiculous.

See above.

@underlined why add that? I'm talking about an hypothetical adult hyuuga with lightning affinity. Young dojutsuless kakashi created that jutsu. It wouldn't be hard for the hypothetical hyuuga to learn on his own.

To avoid the stupid logical fallacy you were hoping to trap me into... Young Doujutsu-less Kakashi who was a Jounin created the jutsu based off of rasengan, which he was taught by the 4th hokage. Raikiri happened as he was trying to elementize rasengan. So how exactly do you assume that this hypothetical hyuuga learn it on his own

@Bold nothing suggests that? Why? Because there is no evidence to prove it? Based on the bolded part of the definition i placed on top, isn't this Argumentum ad Ignoratium?

@combo that is probably how it is in every clan. But it doesn't stop them from training with outsiders or learning on their own. Hinata training with team 8..Neji training with team Gai etc

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Neji was from the Side Branch, which no Hyuuga cared about. The Secret techniques of the Main Branch were forbidden knowledge to the side branch. So why would he be trained by his clan lol.

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@underlined fact that Gaara knew absolutely nothing about his opponent including not knowing he could escape sand coffin should prove he wouldn't have started making excess sand the moment he got there. Nothing suggests that with lack of info about his opponent in 212, he'll have started prepping sand as a counter for having sand coffin countered.

So you're argument is that being assigned to a jounin mission and encountering an enemy you have no knowledge in, you should go full force in to battle unprepared with no back up plan. LMAO

@bold I agree with your idea of why he won't use all the sand at once if he was prepping sand but my question was; if he truly was prepping sand, why didn't he use part of the prepped sand for sand coffin? The amount needed to do that pales in comparison to the sea of sand he unleashed moments later. Why use his personal sand?

He did. Sand Grabbed Kimmimaro by the foot and begin ascending as Sand Rain descended upon him...

I'm sorry i can't provide a direct scan. But here's one commenting on its speed

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Gaara's sand is fast. The people he was using it against were also evading. The rocks basically just sit there.

Exactly as I thought. No scan to support your claim. Deidara wouldn't know if his Sand was faster because it was special or because of Gaara because y'know he'd never seen Gaara fight before.

Yes. I do believe Gaara can create sand without any sand present but that wasn't what i was arguing with the scans. You asked if we had seen Gaara use sand that wasn't from his gourd and i replied with those scans.

Yes, well technically you're correct about what I asked. What I meant though, was had we seen Gaara create Sand without sand from his gourd.

What? Doesn't Yamato have to worry about dimensions and what not? You know what? tell me how exactly you think Gaara's sand breaks down the rocks. I gather all that happens is immediately his chakra infused sand touches a rock, it pulverizes it instantly. If chakra can turn into water instantly, why can't chakra pulverize rock instantly?

Why certainly.

From the sand he is himself carrying, he grinds the rocks and minerals from underground into an homogenous sea of sand and manipulates it like a tsunami that engulfs absolutely all things in his line of sight!! This jutsu is for no one except Gaara, who lives up to his "Of the Desert*" namesake. This raging sea deals a lot of damage by itself, but one can further take advantage of the sand for a second and a third consecutive assault! That sublime succession of sand attacks has this jutsu as its starting point!!

@bold. You know what? this scan takes place after the sand tsunami

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Kimi clearly kicks Gaara a ways from where he unleashed sand tsunami which you state was prepped sand.

In this new location way behind Gaara's original position, he creates his ultimate defense and does this almost consecutively;

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200metres. That is extremely deep. he'll have had to crush the rocks all the way down for Kimi to slide down smoothly. And the context shows he did that instantly btw.

What do you suppose the total area is that Gaara collected the sand from to use Sand Tsunami. If there is already copious amounts of sand underground, then using it to begin that jutsu would be pretty easy.

Please don't say it was from sand that he prepped for the tsunami cause then you'll be saying;
- He assumed Kimi would be able to survive the large scale crush from the tsunami and didn't unleash all the sand he created
- Despite all the Earth under and in front of him, he decided to crush earth from way behind him when he was supposedly prepping sand tsunami.

WHAT THE FLIP IS WRONG WITH YOU ALL AND PREDICTION. THIS REALLY ISN'T DIFFICULT. No, all it would be saying is that the result of breaking up a lot of stones and then moving that volume of sand above ground creates a chasm that could be filled with oh say, sand that pulls an opponent downward. NO prediction necessary. Really none. You guys jump right to prediction because its easy to argue against. Do me a favor? Stop setting up straw men. I can see right through them.

I'm sorry but the fourth shinobi world war didn't take place in a desert. It took place in the Land of lightning and Land of frost based on the fact that the Daimyo's of the land were shown being evacuated. A desert was never mentioned.

Oh dear lord....Do you mean you want me to explain Geology and Geography to you now... My IQ is rapidly dropping. Have you ever traveled. Maybe this will be easier than fundamentally explaining how that is definitionally a desert.

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LOOK SAND ALREADY ON THE GROUND

Gaara's division had been retreating sideways for a while. They were basically backing off. They were never at a spot for too long if not the Edo Kage's would have caught up. Mu also stated this. As i posted above, in chapter 546 page 7 Gaara and Ohnoki decide they should stop retreating and attack from there. In the very next page(page 8) a sand tsunami was greeting the Edo Kage's. How could Gaara have prepped this when he was retreating with the division he was commander of? The fact they were retreating shows they weren't at a spot for long and it wasn't a desert. The entire area was rocky.

Considering that Gaara's dad using a similar type of jutsu with Gold dust created a sea of gold dust to match that volume

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instantly, i fail to see how you can still keep the opinion the technique needs prep. Or do you seriously assume Rasa had that tsunami of gold dust prepped too?
Based on real life processes, it would take longer to get gold dust from rocks than it would to get just sand.

Well I certainly don't hold that Gaara's dad uses Sand to grind down gold. One because Gold is particularly malleable. And Two because nothing suggests that. Three because there would need to be massive amounts of Gold Ore. Now notice the difference...Gaara's Dad's ability was unique to him a Kenkei Genkai. Magnet Release. Implying that its completely FLIPPING different that Gaara's Jutsu. The same way iron sand is completely different. The most likely conlcusion is that the 4th Kazekage produced Gold Sand most similar to the way that the 3rd Kazekage did. And if not, he could have turned his chakra directly into Gold. Who knows? But we do explicitly know how Gaara's sand is created. Holy Crap, you're grasping at straws. And you can't seem to grab onto a single one that leads to an interesting argument or well being factually supported by any of the texts.

lol what? Turning falling rubble into sand makes more sense than using your own chakra infused sand to create a sand wall to just guard the people in the room?
Just because you can do something doesn't mean you must do it when there is a simpler solution.
@Bold limited knowledge on Madara. No idea what you're talking about.

I was simply clarifying his argument. Though if it doesn't require effort to turn stone into sand, and you thought it just took a tap onto the stone to turn into Sand then really shouldn't those rock have all dispersed into sand.

Maybe go to the end of the Madara Gokage fight as I said his FINAL Katon. Do the same work you just asked me to do?

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Ockham's Razor is perhaps the stupidest philosophic tool I have seen to date. Nothing is simple about existence. It's complex so to assume the simplest answer can leave you believing some pretty stupid stuff. Like the Geocentric theory of the Universe.

 

[Tazzilla88]

Temari didn't immediately prep KKM as soon as she got to the battlefield, what evidence is there that Gaara started prepping sand right when he got there?

KKM is a summoning jutsu. Now if she needed to bring her own WIND or AIR to the battlefield, do you think she would? If Air was a limited resource and not abundantly around if she was fighting in the Vaccuum of Space, do you think she would do what she could to have as much Air to create Wind as she possibly could. Probably. After all, that is why she lugs around a Fan, to create wind from the air.

 

[Jinrou]

Well genin isn't just about power level as Shikamaru was not the strongest of the Rookie 9. Knowing however, that Shikamaru's power was enough to qualify him as a chuunin allows us to set into motion a minimum power level necessary to understand what a chuunin's power looks like. By this standard we can assess Kiba and Neji were of Chunnin power at least. Factoring Naruto who had a Boss Summon and Tajuu Kage Bunshin No Jutsu these two are enough to push him high chuunin to jonnin. Gaara would be in the same category with Shukaku and Sand Tsunami.

We can't set a motion based on a Chuunin's power level tbh. Shika, Iruka, Mizuki, Izumo and Kotetsu were part 1 chuunins. They weren't strong and you said yourself Shikamaru wasn't strong. He(in a way) and Neji lost but Shikamaru was made chuunin why?

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The fact Kiba, Shikamaru, Neji appear strong doesn't mean he would be extra careful seeing as he had killed quite a number of people at the time. Their power and ability simply could not compare to his and he would know that.

I'd like to see the string in logic that suggests Assassin = Jounin. I'll wait. Naruto as a genin with no more than shadow clone jutsu was capable of killing Mizuki, I fail to see your point. What does killing Gennin and having a signature move mean. Now the fact that his sand reeks of blood certainly suggests that he usually uses his gourd sand. If creating sand was so instant why not just turn the ground beneath and around his opponents into sand? Because it was a new ability Kishi was showing.

Slightly disappointed by the @bold because it was kind of implied/indicated Anbu were the ones who went on assassinations. Naruto could kill Mizuki but Mizuki was a chuunin. He used sand from his sand gourd to kill because the sand was specially made. Infused with his chakra making it faster and more powerful. Creating sand to use his signature move would defeat the purpose of carrying the gourd around wouldn't it?

You're missing the point by a mile now. He was requested from another village for a JOUNIN ranked mission. That is the main point. The supplementary information is that a strong team had been sent out including someone stronger than him. And they still needed back up. All the other information about the other members of that squad who at least displayed chuunin levels of power, only lend to the fact that they were no ordinary gennin. The rookie 9 throughout the whole chuunin exam were portrayed to be particularly stronger than past generations of gennin. Gaara may have been stronger than most of them, but he could recognize they weren't slouches. No reason not to come to a battle serious. It was after all a JOUNIN mission. What was undoubtedly relayed to the Sand was that 2 JOUNIN had been hospitalized by this group of criminals (the Sound Four).

Now let's work through this logically. Gaara is facing opponents that defeated 2 Jounin. He has one thing to attack. Incidentally, he has one thing to defend with. He has no knowledge about the opponent before him but perhaps presumes he aided in taking down the 2 Jounin. Now having this set of information. Would Gaara A) Limit his amount of offensive and Defensive Options or B) Expand his amount of offensive and Defensive Options. I don't know this is a real quandary. Well let's see, if you were fighting and you knew you're life was on the line. You know that someone who fought and beat you without killing intent is on this mission, and was deemed inadequate to tackle the threat of this mission despite having support, would you want to run low on supplies, or would you want to be prepared for anything. Let's add an extra wrinkle. You were given information on the abilities of four opponents. You don't recognize this as one of those four opponents but this seems to be the same mission. Now having no information on the power level of this particular opponent nor having any information about his abilities, yet knowing this is a JOUNIN mission what do you presume. Upon arrival you notice that someone you fought before is fighting this opponent and is failing. You note that they are injured/ not capable to performing in the light you saw them in before. You don't know the immediate cause of this, whether the opponent caused this or not. Now, would you choose A or B?

See above.

- You say 'still needed backup' like Tsunade knew the retrieval team were struggling. Sure it's an easy to get to idea but she couldn't have known definitely.
- Becoming a chuunin isn't about power.
- Raido and Genma were the shinobi defeated by the sound 4. They are ranked as special Jounin (a rank still below Jounin) but were able to significantly cause the sound 4 trouble seeing as how they were forced to use stage 2 of the seal. Besides, the fact Kankurou and Temari still had to ask Kiba and Shika about their opponent's abilities leads me to wonder if the sand siblings were thoroughly informed about the strength and abilities of the enemy.

@bold It's really confusing why you keep bringing this "since Naruto is there" idea up. The whole manga goes against this claim/assumption/theory of your's.

- Kakashi knew about Zabuza. He was famous. He knew he had to be extremely careful and even uncovered his sharingan. But because Kakashi didn't know full well his abilities, he was caught in Zabuza's water prison.

- Shikamaru, Asuma, Kotetsu and Izumo were searching for Akatsuki. They knew Akatsuki had members that defeated a Jinchuriki Kage (yagura). Surely that should be enough to bring your A game right? Well what happened? Asuma died when they encountered 2 Akatsuki members because they had no idea about their abilities. They would have all died if not for Kakuzu insisting he and Hidan retreat when Ino and Chouji's platoon came around. What now makes this special is that Shikamaru ended up enacting revenge on Hidan after knowing his abilities and prepping towards countering them.

- Jiraiya. He knew he was about to face the leader of the Akatsuki who killed easily someone he, tsunade and orochimaru (the sannin) couldn't. Definitely enough to make him bring his A+ game. But what still happened? Jiraiya died because he didn't know about all of Pain's abilities. Even Pain implies Jiraiya could have won if he knew about his secret.

See what i'm getting at? You basically can't counter prep just because someone you know that is stronger than you are lost against an enemy and you also can't counter prep when you have no idea about your enemies abilities.
Gaara didn't even know Naruto faced Kimi and Gaara definitely couldn't have known the sand from his gourd (which he has used to kill many) wouldn't be enough.

I implore you not to use this 'because Naruto was there' argument again.

To avoid the stupid logical fallacy you were hoping to trap me into... Young Doujutsu-less Kakashi who was a Jounin created the jutsu based off of rasengan, which he was taught by the 4th hokage. Raikiri happened as he was trying to elementize rasengan. So how exactly do you assume that this hypothetical hyuuga learn it on his own

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Neji was from the Side Branch, which no Hyuuga cared about. The Secret techniques of the Main Branch were forbidden knowledge to the side branch. So why would he be trained by his clan lol.

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You did say Hyuuga trained their own ..you didn't make mention of main branch. The Hyuuga as a whole was implied to have the best chakra control so a rasengan shouldn't be an issue especially since Konohamaru can do it. It isn't then far fetched to think a hypothetical hyuuga with lightning affinity would be able to add his lightning element to a rasengan with his chakra control to form a raikiri.
Nevertheless, i'll love to drop this part of the argument as i only wanted to prove to you that with argumentum, i can argue this and it would be logical.

So you're argument is that being assigned to a jounin mission and encountering an enemy you have no knowledge in, you should go full force in to battle unprepared with no back up plan. LMAO

He did. Sand Grabbed Kimmimaro by the foot and begin ascending as Sand Rain descended upon him...

The plan Gaara falls back on when it seems like he'll be outmatched is this:

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Though not out-right called "Plan B" you get what kankurou means right?
Also Gaara has killed anbu level shinobi with just sand from his gourd. If he really assumes he'll need more sand why did he create that much? It's almost suggesting Gaara planned to use Sand Tsunami from the start.

Exactly as I thought. No scan to support your claim. Deidara wouldn't know if his Sand was faster because it was special or because of Gaara because y'know he'd never seen Gaara fight before.

I'm sorry. I assumed it was general knowledge that Gaara's gourd sand was faster and stronger than regular sand so i didn't put effort into searching for it. I have it now though

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What do you suppose the total area is that Gaara collected the sand from to use Sand Tsunami. If there is already copious amounts of sand underground, then using it to begin that jutsu would be pretty easy.

WHAT THE FLIP IS WRONG WITH YOU ALL AND PREDICTION. THIS REALLY ISN'T DIFFICULT. No, all it would be saying is that the result of breaking up a lot of stones and then moving that volume of sand above ground creates a chasm that could be filled with oh say, sand that pulls an opponent downward. NO prediction necessary. Really none. You guys jump right to prediction because its easy to argue against. Do me a favor? Stop setting up straw men. I can see right through them.

What are you trying to suggest with @bold? Kimimaro kicked Gaara away from his Tsunami unleashing position

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and

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this was the distance between Gaara's previous position and his new one.

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Are you trying to suggest despite all the Earth under and in front of Gaara

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, he broke down sand way behind him too?

And well what do we have

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. Actual scan of Gaara's sand(from his absolute defense) coming into contact without the ground and breaking it up.

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shows range of breakdown and

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has Gaara saying he'll sink to a depth of 200metres. All in a new location away from where he unleashed the tsunami and done in seconds.

Oh dear lord....Do you mean you want me to explain Geology and Geography to you now... My IQ is rapidly dropping. Have you ever traveled. Maybe this will be easier than fundamentally explaining how that is definitionally a desert.

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LOOK SAND ALREADY ON THE GROUND

A map showing where the war took place

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Land of lightning is said to comprise of mountains with the Raikage's tower located on the tallest mountain.

Various scans showing what the terrain of the land of lightning looks like. PS pay attention to the floor.

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Notice Rasa's feet in this one. No depression because it's a rocky surface. Middle left panel

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And this has to be the best one yet

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You can literally see the two Edo kage making depressions in the sand/gold dust Gaara and Rasa littered the place with. But the alliance coming from the direction where Gaara and Ohnoki had also come from aren't making sand depressions or lifting sand as they run.

Claiming it's a desert is baseless.

Well I certainly don't hold that Gaara's dad uses Sand to grind down gold. One because Gold is particularly malleable. And Two because nothing suggests that. Three because there would need to be massive amounts of Gold Ore. Now notice the difference...Gaara's Dad's ability was unique to him a Kenkei Genkai. Magnet Release. Implying that its completely FLIPPING different that Gaara's Jutsu. The same way iron sand is completely different. The most likely conlcusion is that the 4th Kazekage produced Gold Sand most similar to the way that the 3rd Kazekage did. And if not, he could have turned his chakra directly into Gold. Who knows? But we do explicitly know how Gaara's sand is created. Holy Crap, you're grasping at straws. And you can't seem to grab onto a single one that leads to an interesting argument or well being factually supported by any of the texts.

You don't need to hold anything but go with what the manga shows. Rasa touches the ground

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and unleashes his own tsunami. Why touch the ground? Obviously sending chakra in.
He doesn't touch the ground

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but his gold dust is coming from the ground he has just sent his chakra into. No sudden manipulation like sasori showed with the 3rd kazekage's iron sand.

Also, gold dust can be found in quartz and guess where you can find quartz? Yes, rocks underground. Magnetic release works with gold dust because there is iron in gold. You don't necessarily need a gold ore.

I was simply clarifying his argument. Though if it doesn't require effort to turn stone into sand, and you thought it just took a tap onto the stone to turn into Sand then really shouldn't those rock have all dispersed into sand.

Maybe go to the end of the Madara Gokage fight as I said his FINAL Katon. Do the same work you just asked me to do?

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if the building collapsed as a whole and not in pieces..then maybe. But to expect him to turn everything to sand, clump it together and control it away so it doesn't rain on the people in the room is completely illogical. Why waste the chakra?

 

[RedRobin]

Temari didn't immediately prep KKM as soon as she got to the battlefield, what evidence is there that Gaara started prepping sand right when he got there?

Lol. What exactly would she prep? All she needs for the attack is her fan which she had on her.

Temari creates wind with the swing of her fan, she is not like Gaara who needs to break down minerals to get more sand.

That fact that Gaara needs to break down minerals to create more sand, and the fact that he had sand already underground. Plus the fact that he was using a strategy to capture Kimi with underground sand shows more evidence he was prepping sand.

 

[RedRobin]

A map showing where the war took place

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Land of lightning is said to comprise of mountains with the Raikage's tower located on the tallest mountain.

Various scans showing what the terrain of the land of lightning looks like. PS pay attention to the floor.

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Notice Rasa's feet in this one. No depression because it's a rocky surface. Middle left panel

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And this has to be the best one yet

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You can literally see the two Edo kage making depressions in the sand/gold dust Gaara and Rasa littered the place with. But the alliance coming from the direction where Gaara and Ohnoki had also come from aren't making sand depressions or lifting sand as they run.

Claiming it's a desert is baseless.

Dude its a desert. This is ridiculous. You are not going to convince anyone its not a desert so you may as well drop the argument as fast as you can.

 

[Rinnesarada21]

Sakura slays.

 

[Forbidden Technique]

Stop saying stupid things.

The manga backs up my claims. Kimmimaro could dodge each of Gaara's attacks. Yet Gaara's sand can enter the ground so quickly that it immediately pulverizes tons of rocks into sand and he can instantly release it. But his sand isn't fast enough in a head on attack to blitz.

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Basically what I've been saying. What is your point? Gaara couldn't tag Kimimaro with his gourd sand alone, so he had to immediately develop a different tactic. It sounds like you're supporting my assertion.

Furthermore my conclusion is based on far more manga evidence than yours. He analyzes that Gaara can use the sand for both offense and defense. He then argues, but reasons that Gaara can only use the amount of sand in his gourd. Which prefaces his comment "You can't do anything unless you have sand". Now the point of this entire dialogue is to display that Gaara can use more sand than what's in his gourd. Slanders. Shut up. There's no reason to feel so personal about Gaara's abilities. Here is how the context can be discerned. Have we ever seen Gaara use sand not from his gourd before? No. So what is the author trying to do? Expand Gaara's reptoire by showing an ability. Which a point heightened by Kimmimaro's very next thought. "Carrying around that heavy Sand is Proof of This" So... this entire dialogue concerns the gourd. "If I have Sand I can do anything" relates back to "You can't do anything unless you have sand." Which by the way is completely true and not slander. The reason Gaara carries the Gourd is because he needs some amount of sand to create more sand. In the absence of any sand whatsoever... he is useless. But now I'm getting side tracked by your peculiar use of slander. Gaara realized that he was being underestimated, and that his opponent believed he was limited to that which was in the gourd, to which he points out that he can create sand. Lee explains how this happens. None of it being described as a quick process either.

Lmao, zero manga evidence if we want to actually be accurate and honest with ourselves. Just stop. Per usual, you went on about practically nothing here, and then proceeded to dance around my point even further. The purpose of the dialogue, which is what you addressed, is besides the point. The author is expanding Gaara's reptoire by showing a new ability? No shit. What was that supposed to prove or disprove? It's the context that I have been addressing. Even then, the dialogue is not just about the gourd... Either your manga comprehension is really this dirt poor or you purposely choose to leave things out for your own desperate convenience. The dialogue is also concerning Gaara's alias - "Gaara of the Desert", and whether or not does he rightfully deserve it. Kimimaro specifically said, "What an idiotic alias", obviously referring to Gaara being referred to as "Gaara of the Desert". That is in fact directly slandering Gaara's capabilities with sand. Stating otherwise is simply piss poor reading comprehension.

Here is the whole quote by Kimimaro, "What an idiotic alias... You can't do anything without sand"

Idiotic:

2: showing complete lack of thought or common sense : foolish

What was Gaara's immediate response to Kimimaro slandering his capabilities? "But If I have sand, I can do anything. You're the foolish one, it doesn't take any effort for me to create sand from the ground".

??????????????

Your whole assertion absolutely baffling and atrocious. The context is so clear. What is implied is clear. Kimimaro: What an idiotic (foolish) alias. All you have is that gourd sand. Gaara: No, you're the fool. I can create sand effortlessly, and do anything with it. How in hell do you even begin to muster the thought that Gaara showed up in chapter 212 (ignoring how time pasts between chapters) to immediately start prepping sand is farrrrr beyond me. When something is said to be effortless, especially in this clear cut context, it does not by any means imply tedious - which you're attempting to argue, based on nothing. My assertion is based on Gaara's responding statements and actions; creating the extra sand from the ground CLEARLY occurring in direct response to Kimimaro slandering his sand capabilities. You have yet again failed to provide anything from this manga that supports your assertion. It's nothing but you continuing to baselessly reach for the twinkling stars, and waisting my time.

Thanks to the picture RR highlighted for me. Thanks bud. We already observed Gaara's sand actively in the ground. So when he clasps his hand together it erupts upward, rather than shooting downward into the ground to instantly make sand. We can tell its going upward for several reasons. One Lee's guard and his hair flying backwards. And two Gaara's belt flies upward rather than downward. And those same marks are seen on the next page as more sand flies forth from the Earth.

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What is this supposed to prove? Yes, we saw the extra sand Gaara created, which was used in order to grasp Kimimaro from below. Yes, that was Gaara's sand emerging out of the ground creating the sand tsunami. Actually, upon analyzing the scans thoroughly, I noticed the sand appears to be entering the ground.

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Top left, and middle left panel displays the position of Gaaras gourd sand guarding his face and torso.

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Gaara attacks Kimimaro from below his feet from the sand he created. Now take a look at the position of his gourd sand on the bottom right panel. It went from guarding his face and torso, to moving below his torso.

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This is more then likely because it was just used to create sand below the ground, which is accurate with Rock Lee's observation of what was occurring.

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Then right before the Sand Tsunami emerged, we see the sand directly behind Gaara reaching down to the ground, and then completely disappearing on the very same page.

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He wasn't at any prior time using that much gourd sand to protect himself. So don't you dare tell me it went back into the gourd, because there would be no reason for him to take out that much sand just to place it right back in.

No, prediction is grasping.You're using Argumentum ad Ignorantiam Your now claiming the absence of evidence is the evidence of absence. Asking what exactly Gaara knew. Well Gaara knew that Kiba, who almost beat Naruto was on the mission, as well as Shikamaru who did beat Temari, there was Lee who gave him a good workout and almost beat him, and there was Naruto who did beat him. See? Unless we reason that he thought Choji was the standard assumption for the team then you're idea makes no sense. This is further proved as the sound 4 beat a team comprised of 2 special jounin ones that were on Minato's detail

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and that was probably communicated to the sand. This was a jonin mission.

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The burden of providing evidence to back up your claims, is on no one else but you. You're the one making a claim that is unsupported by the manga, and any sensible reasoning for that matter. The relevance of this point is not significant, but if we shall... Kiba almost defeated a much weaker version of Naruto that didn't display the use of the Kyubi or a boss summon. This isn't saying much. Gaara was also in a demented mindset when facing Naruto, and we do not know how much of that fight he even remembers. Gaara is far superior to Temari, Rock Lee wasn't fighting at 100%, and we have no reason to believe Gaara knew Naruto fought Kimimaro. As with everything you've been stating, it's all baseless assumptions. These are a group of Genin/Chuunin rank ninja that the sand siblings were sent to back up. I see no reason to spend so much time speculating beyond that.

Now....you're again utilizing Argumentum ad Ignorantiam to say that because the databook doesn't explicitly state that putting sand in the ground, crushing rocks, and bring the new sand up is a process that takes time. It therefore doesn't take time. However, the databook doesn't usually mention prep time. It mentions the steps necessary to enact the jutsu. To give you an indication of quickness it uses words like instantly or instantaneously

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slower than that it may use the word quickly

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neither of those are used. The databook certainly doesn't suggest that this is a rapid fire technique

The only counter point I will give you credit for, and what I will concede on being flawed logic.

This is so stupid I will address more than once in a single post

I tell you that Gaara is prepping more sand;
you're answer: why doesn't he just use all the sand earlier
Me: because it was being prepared. That's kinda what prepped implies.
You: If he had been prepping sand underground he would have unleashed it all when it was ready
Me:... but.. but.. that's exactly what happened. What are you arguing? And even if he didn't use all the sand he had access to it. He was literally using it. I'm completely bewildered by your point.
You: Gaara didn't unleash it at the beginning of the fight, He can do it instantly. Therefore he wasn't prepping
Me: Did you just use your conclusion as one of your premises? "He can do it instantly" is the same as he wasn't prepping.

Do you think, that somehow the sand being under ground limits the amount of sand Gaara has access to?
Bear with me for just a second.
1. Gaara can control both the sand above and below ground.
2. Gaara was preparing Sand underground
Therefore Gaara had access to the sand underground without "unleashing it"

Stupid. Because according to you, Gaara showed up in chapter 212, and immediately began prepping additional sand for the fight. So from chapter 212 until 215, Gaara has only managed to prepare

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. But from then until 4 pages later, Gaara managed to create terrain altering quantities? Makes perfect sense. If he really started prepping from 212, then he obviously had to of had more sand prepped then initially displayed. Hence why I asked, if this were to be the case, why didn't he unleash more of it.

Now, why wouldn't Gaara unleash the sand immediately as he creates it?
If one has unlimited hands one could utilize unlimited hammers
The more hammers one has and the quicker they can deconstruct a solid.
Therefore the more hands the faster solids can be deconstructed.
Now to simplify what I mean
The more Sand Gaara the greater area he could cover
The greater area he can cover, the more stone he could crush
Therefore The more Sand Gaara has the more stones he could crush, which results in more sand quicker. It's basic investment theory where the created sand is the compound interest.

Precisely why it doesn't take long at all.

Oh. Ha! Got Me! Ha! Appeal to Popularity. Unfortunately for you, this isn't Mean Girls and Argumentum ad Populum isn't a valid logical technique. It's only a way to pat yourself on the back as a consolation prize because your inferior logic couldn't actually produce logically superior results.

*slow caps*
I enjoyed that one.

This is the problem with your Gaara isn't prepping argument. You must now reach the conclusion that Gaara isn't drawing the finest minerals from the sand that he already created. You must also necessarily believe that collects means instantly collects. Which means you believe he created a lot more sand, to find good minerals, and ignored all the best minerals that would be present in his Sand Tsunami

However, this isn't what was stated. Gaara created a sea of sand. He collected the best minerals. Because his last sand shield got bulldozed through.

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All of this was only possible through because the sand had already been created. His job was to sift through it. Exactly like Suna... where the sand was already created he just needed to sift through it (and that's assuming that he as kazekage had no contingency plans even though his only skill is sand. In all likelihood he would have presifted the sand and be remarkably familiar with his home court advantage, but there's no evidence so I won't argue that)

What? Gaara isn't drawing the finest minerals from the sand he just created, because that is not what was stated. Simple. Here is the Viz translation:

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Gaara created this absolute defense by collecting the minerals from the soil, and then used his chakra to compress them into sand. This is completely different and done separately from the Sand Tsunami. Again, we know for a fact that this was all done very quickly upon Kimimaro creating his bone spear. The same thing applies with what he did to shield the Sand Village. The databook specifically states that in order to form this defense, he chooses the best minerals. That is the prerequisite behind utilizing this level of defense, which isn't dependent on dessert terrain, as seen against Kimimaro.

I'd also like to challenge premise A. If Gaara is destroying rocks en masse he could simultaneously sort good sand from bad. No reason it must take extra time. Homogeneous means all the same right? But what happened to all the good grains of sand that would have been in with the standard grains? Actually Premise A isn't a Premise its a conclusion... that has no argument attached.

My objection to B is that you are being too careless in your terms. Define create. I would say utilize or use. If that's what you mean. We agree. Otherwise, Premise B is flawed.

Of course you would. Use common sense. If the manga and databook are both differentiating when Gaara chooses to collect the best minerals and when he doesn't, obviously it implies that one is a harder procedure then the other. Otherwise, it would be a norm for Gaara to simply collect the best quality minerals for all of his sand constructs, and not just when the occasion arrises that he needs a top quality form of defense.

No. The manga very specifically states that Gaara collected the best minerals within the soil, and then kneaded them into sand. I think creates is the proper word, because the minerals aren't originally sand.

A logical argument must have premises that are both true and valid. Meeting both of those conditions the premise becomes sound. A valid argument can be untrue:
Broccoli is green
Meats are Green
Therefore Broccoli is a Meat
That is a valid argument but not a sound one. Because Meats aren't green.

To give you a less jarring veggie example
Vegatables are green
Carrots are not green
Therefore Carrots are not Vegatables
Again valid but unsound.

Though I suppose you could be trying to sum up your points in which case, I challenge each of them as unsound. And I ask that you establish sound arguments to make your case. But, that isn't what's going on due to your conclusion. So yes, I need you to treat A,B, and C as conclusions and state the sound premises you used to derive them.

Already explained to you why A makes much more sense then the contrary. I do recall reading that it requires much more chakra somewhere in the databook, but I do not value this discussion enough to go back through Databooks 1, 2, 3, and 4 to go find it. So believe what you want, doesn't make a difference to me. I believe I already explained and cleared up B. And what needs to be clarified about C? Was this not SRA Gaara? Was that not Kazekaga Gaara, who accomplished something very similar but on a far larger scale?

Also, you have no place to speak of any L's because I'm tap dancing on your head son, with Gaara. You haven't even manned up to the challenge of what the main ideas of my argument is. You are staw manning away on tangents because you can't hold a candle to my knowledge base on Tsunade nor can you keep up logically, apparently.

Tazzila, lmao. I have already concluded that you're a bit delusional. No need to make it more apparent. Please, settle down. Every small point we have discussed has been expanded beyond belief. I'm not spending hours upon hours discussing every little disagreement I have with you. Sorry. Addressing this was more important, and crucial to be settled before revisiting what we were previously discussing.

 

[Xlad]

Gaara kicks ass because he has the funk. Tsunade don't have it, and Sakura sure as hell don't have it.

Lol Moving on.

 

[Jinrou]

Dude its a desert. This is ridiculous. You are not going to convince anyone its not a desert so you may as well drop the argument as fast as you can.

lol man. Don't worry about it..The manga facts and scans weren't for you. Why?

Because not only have you been able to very well contradict yourself..

You are literally asking why would Gaara prepare to battle. You always needs a plan B in case something goes wrong. Why wouldnt he prep an even stronger technique?

Why does Gaara keep an extra layer of sand on his body? To prepare in case he comes across an opponent who could potentially kill him.

You've also shown the extraordinary ability to blatantly ignore manga facts to support your own opinions which is majorly why i chose not to continue arguing with you in the first place

Gaara grinds down rocks with sand not chakra. DB explains that. Suna is literally made of sand and is located in a desert, There is sand everywhere.

Shukaku is what saved him and nigh instantly turned rock into sand. Gaara never showed the ability to do that not even in part 2.

 

[RedRobin]

lol man. Don't worry about it..The manga facts and scans weren't for you. Why?

Because not only have you been able to very well contradict yourself..



You've also shown the extraordinary ability to blatantly ignore manga facts to support your own opinions which is majorly why i chose not to continue arguing with you in the first place

Lol. Stop being so desperate to prove something about Gaara that you completely ignore the landscape in all those scans being sand. You are being absolutely ridiculous.

I in no way shape or form contradicted myself. I was talking about a situation with kid Gaara in one argument and then talked about an older Gaara's strategy in battle. They have noting to do with each other.

Did Gaara know he was going face an opponent like Lee who would be able to bypass his first layer of sand defense? No but did he prep an extra layer of sand on himself? Yes he did, just in case it was needed.

Did Gaara know Kimi was going to survive his first attack? No but did he prep more sand to make sure he would have something else to use after? Yes he did.

Also its funny how you say you are simply not going to debate with me but have just ignored the replying to arguments where I clowned your ass.

 

[Icelerate]

KKM is a summoning jutsu. Now if she needed to bring her own WIND or AIR to the battlefield, do you think she would? If Air was a limited resource and not abundantly around if she was fighting in the Vaccuum of Space, do you think she would do what she could to have as much Air to create Wind as she possibly could. Probably. After all, that is why she lugs around a Fan, to create wind from the air.

KKM still requires prep to summon but she obviously wasn't going to prep the attack until she needed to use it. Temari creates wind from her fan. The wind in the background has no effect on her fuuton save from slowing down the fuuton over time due to air resistance. Also even if that were the case, Gaara's case is different because he already has sand to begin with and it is out of character for him to prep sand right at the beginning of the battle in part one.

Lol. What exactly would she prep? All she needs for the attack is her fan which she had on her.

Temari creates wind with the swing of her fan, she is not like Gaara who needs to break down minerals to get more sand.

That fact that Gaara needs to break down minerals to create more sand, and the fact that he had sand already underground. Plus the fact that he was using a strategy to capture Kimi with underground sand shows more evidence he was prepping sand.

KKM requires her to summon Kamatari first much like how Gaara needs to breakdown soil to get additional sand. He was prepping sand from chapter 215 onwards, not chapter 212.

Where in the manga was it stated, shown or implied that Gaara started prepping additional sand from the ground from chapter 212 onwards?

 

[RedRobin]

KKM requires her to summon Kamatari first much like how Gaara needs to breakdown soil to get additional sand. He was prepping sand from chapter 215 onwards, not chapter 212.

Where in the manga was it stated, shown or implied that Gaara started prepping additional sand from the ground from chapter 212 onwards?

Thats not prep. She summons Kamatari as she attacks. All she does is create blood and spread it over the fan and then does her attack. You cannot compare that to Gaara breaking down minerals for more sand. Its not like she was going to prep the blood on her fan since that takes seconds to do.

Why does it matter? 212 simply shows Gaara's getting to the battle. 215 literally continues exactly where 212 left off. Unless you want to argue that they had battled between that time which would prove Gaara was prepping sand for sure. We already agreed he was prepping sand anyway.

 

[Jinrou]

Lol. Stop being so desperate to prove something about Gaara that you completely ignore the landscape in all those scans being sand. You are being absolutely ridiculous.

I in no way shape or form contradicted myself. I was talking about a situation with kid Gaara in one argument and then talked about an older Gaara's strategy in battle. They have noting to do with each other.

Did Gaara know he was going face an opponent like Lee who would be able to bypass his first layer of sand defense? No but did he prep an extra layer of sand on himself? Yes he did, just in case it was needed.

Did Gaara know Kimi was going to survive his first attack? No but did he prep more sand to make sure he would have something else to use after? Yes he did.

Also its funny how you say you are simply not going to debate with me but have just ignored the replying to arguments where I clowned your ass.

lol man. There's no need to be so feisty.
-You've yet again shown the extraordinary ability to blatantly disregard manga facts seeing as you claim the landscape in all the scans I provided is sand. I could still debate on this as there are more scans perhaps even a coloured manga scan iirc...but I won't with you. If Tazilla looks at all those and is still not convinced...I'll look to continue the debate with him (obviously with more manga scans seeing as how that was the same location Madara was summoned)

- Kid Gaara and Adult Gaara? You're referring to chuunin exam Gaara as kid Gaara and SRA Gaara as adult Gaara now?

-Mangafact is Gaara's plan B is Armor of Sand no matter the enemy. Didn't know about Lee..wore the armor. Didn't know about Kimi...wore the armor. Only thing he knew about Deidara was that he was Akatsuki..still wore the armor. He's not shown wearing it but the fact its stated its heavier and weighs him down proves he won't wear it except he's in battle. Again I could bring the scans but what's the essence when you're still going to disregard it?

-Your 'clowned' me points could be debated against. Like I said. I personally chose to not just debate with you anymore.

 

[Icelerate]

Thats not prep. She summons Kamatari as she attacks. All she does is create blood and spread it over the fan and then does her attack. You cannot compare that to Gaara breaking down minerals for more sand. Its not like she was going to prep the blood on her fan since that takes seconds to do.

How do you know that prepping sand takes more than seconds to do so?

Why does it matter? 212 simply shows Gaara's getting to the battle. 215 literally continues exactly where 212 left off. Unless you want to argue that they had battled between that time which would prove Gaara was prepping sand for sure. We already agreed he was prepping sand anyway.

He

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within the same chapter he started fighting. So if Gaara did end up start prepping sand at the beginning of the battle, hardly any time has passed between the start of the battle and the point he can use sand tsunami.

 

[Haizaki]

Damn surprised people still have energy to debate like this.

 

[NarutoX28]

I think while this debate has gone very well, I'm going to have to agree with Forbidden Technique. I don't believe the time it takes for Gaara to create large amounts of sand is instantaneous, but it seems that creating sand in general is a relatively fast technique. Forbidden Technique convinced me through the direction of Gaara's sand's motion where Gaara's sand used for his defense here:

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Could've seeped into the ground, formed sand, and retrained Kimimaro with it seeing as how Gaara's sand used for his defense was missing in the next panel. He also convinced me that while Gaara was forming sand for his Sand Tsunami that Gaara's Sand was moving into the ground while he was preparing the Sand Tsunami meaning that everything was done relatively quickly. I also believe that this was the case when Gaara stated that creating sand doesn't take much effort:

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And we later see how that correlates to how quickly Gaara can accomplish his tasks here:

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Where using his sand to carry both Lee and Gaara was a simple task and one that was done very quickly after he used a massive amount of chakra in his previous attack.

Of course, I don't believe the process itself is instantaneous because Tazilla presented good points as well such as Gaara's sand at the time being incapable of catching Kimimaro on its own which means that logically, it takes time for Gaara's sand to travel a considerable enough distance to gather all of the minerals before creating his sand. Forbidden Technique also touched up on how Lee made a good observation of Gaara's ability to create sand based on what was happening in front of him meaning it wasn't instantaneous because Lee could process everything that was happening.

I agree mostly with Forbidden Technique that it's a relatively fast process, but this was actually a very good debate in my eyes.

 

[Mellow]

This would be an everlasting battle. 3 immortals and a long range fighter..

I'd say team Akatsuki tho since deidara would hit from long range while kakazu lays down the hands