There I was talking about her feats when it comes to analysis and intelligence and getting the better from a situation.im not saying shes not, even though im not quite sure what youre referring to in the madara fight, shes just brawling and healing her team mates, which is expected from her skill sets, but itachi has demonstrated superior analytic and intelligence feats. i doubt you can provide evidence to the contrary, even with jiraiya's comment, which im going to have to go back and look at the context off, its clear shes not unparalleled in battle, you would have to have fanboyish tendencies to think otherwise. medical wise its known shes the best, no one disputes that fact, but shes demonstrated no particular skill with genjutsu that would lead me to believe she could combat itachi's main skillset
and observing a fight from a removed 3rd person stand point and being able to follow the movements is not the same as being on the same tier with them in speed or reaction time, that said itachi has hand seals so fast the sharingan has failed to pick them up on several occasions, there's no way tsunade has the physical capacity to out pace itachi's handseals with a reaction or react fast enough to out pace the sharingan movement projection, dont forget ororchimaru was the prodigy of the sannin 3 and itachi fodderized him, not saying a<b<c logic applies because it doesnt, but you cannot ignore how efficiently he can utilize his techniques
And I was giving you example how she handled the Pein situation and also if you would look at the battle between her and Madara, you would notice her skills. In the fight with Madara she devised an attack on Madara so that the other kages could attack him while he responded to her attack.
While she knew Madara was not a shinobi to be messed with, as he's a legend, she already begun Byakugou for whatever case and after she was pierced, she used herself as a decoy to left an open attack to the other Kages towards Madara. What makes you think that against Itachi she couldn't use preventive measures? And in terms of comparison, Madara is known to be the most powerful shinobi amongst the Uchihas.
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That led to force Madara to make allt he wood clones.
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Of course, you would say that he was playing with them, but Madara is known to be cocky and uses tricks as mind toying to disband the trust in their own forces.
If he would've just played, I don't see why it was neccesary to even bring the perfect Susanoo.
So, yes, this is a skillset of hers I have proven against an even more powerful Sharingan user.
Do not forget that she is a Senju. Where other clans focused on mastering one particular skill, the Senju were masters in all skills, from ninjutsu, to taijutsu, to genjutsu. Because of this, they were feared as "the clan with a thousand skills".
Tsunade is a Senju. And I have never heard until now a Sharingan shinobi to get trapped into a Genjutsu/Tsukyomi, whatever.
I will give you the fact that this is 50/50 chances as such a fight hasn't been shown. But as you can say that my statement is false and not in the manga, you still cannot contradict me on this just because of that fact, because the manga has never shown us a Senju being caught in a genjutsu.
Ok, as you've all anyway didn't take into consideration my explanation of her techique and brain mastery because we're talking about medical knowledge here, which Tsunade posesses, I once again ask you, what will make you believe she would fall for that taking into consideration her knowledge about the Uchihas.
Most of you gave me the argument with Orochimaru. Orochimaru was known that he was in seek of the Sharingan and a big 'admirer' and every other shinobi falled to that because everyone was mesmerised, but Tsunade never showed a keen interest in Sharingans and being part of a clan which fought against the Uchihas for so many years is common knowledge that this is the top tier thing to evoid. Plus, once again, I repeat myself, she has shown mastery with brain damage which belongs, once again I say it, to the medical field which she's top one. Yes, that would be from the outside, but I already explained previously about her technique and the connection to brain, anything body related, sensing related. It's pure common knowledge.
While I can't contradict you with your statements, based on basic knowledge and her medical skills you can't contradict me neither.
All I have shown here is pure feats of hers and ways of counter-attack it medical and feat wise.
Oh, you brought up to me the Naruto thing. Yes, it was through the finger, but what you can't take into consideration is the fact that Naruto looked into Itachi's eyes, plus, his battle and anything related wise experience is not the same as Tsunade's.
Naruto is 16 while Tsunade is in her mid 50's.
You say Tsunade can't keep the speed to Itachi's handseals even though I showed you feats of her reaction speed. Well, she is fast enough to acknowledge what he's about to do and find a counter-attack to it, meaning, you don't need fast speed to move your eyes in another direction because this is pretty much you need to do in order not to get caught into a genjutsu. All you need is a blink of an eye and direction change.
Yes, Orochimaru was the prodigy of the team, I give you that, but as I have stated up there, he was after the sharingan, he needed to have information about how it worked and has admired it all the time. Tsunade hasn't shown once interest in the sharingan. And when the time came and she got back she hasn't acted like she didn't know how to deal with Sharingan damages. She just instantly healed both Kakashi and Sasuke, and by that, using common sense you get the idea that she knows how the sharingan works.
Is not like she stood and studied in that precise moment the sharingan, while Orochimaru always has shown keen interest in him, trying to get to know more about it. I once say, no such a reaction has been shown on Tsunade.
She just took the problem that the Sharingan caused and dealth with it. Quickly.
I haven't denied Itachi's efficiency when it comes to his techniques. You, along with the others seem to deny showed feats of Tsunade.
And as Itachi himself, stated: Every technique has a weakness!
The weaknesses Tsunade has shown until now is the fact that her techniques have an end. But she has an enormous chakra pool so that's what makes her more lasting in a battle than the majority of the shinobis. She was able to keep her Byakugou activated for an entire day until the night. That, after she went through the Raikage's Heavenly Transfer which supposedly should have shred her to pieces, yet, she got out from with little damage shown to her, few scratches.
Yes, Tsunade's weakness is the outlasting, that's her spot, but that can be done by with huge chakra reserves, meaning, the only one I see now are the tailed beasts and Naruto being Uzumaki. As she is part Senju, part Uzumaki, by nature her chakra pool is already immense, not to mention that she as well stores chakra so outlasting Tsunade is pretty hard.
There, I have even shown you a weakness of hers while all everyone else did was just praise Itachi but never has shown a weak spot of his.
Theory on Tsuande's Disadvantage:Guys don't get mad when i say this cause im just asking but, there has been proof shown that the 3 Tomoe Sharingan can take over Summonings of Katsuyu's Caliber:
There is also proof that Katsuyu can indirectly use/absorb Tsunade's Chakra:You must be registered for see images
So is it possible that Itachi could just take control over Katsuyu and use Katsuyu to absorb all of Tsuande's chakra until she resemblances are actual age? or until Death? Or could Itachi simply use Katsuyu to constantly give Itachi tsuande's Chakra?If you can give manga prove of why he couldn't do this i would accept it.You must be registered for see images
Chakra Disruption Method:
Reason Why Knowledge Doesn't Beat Itachi:An Argument i have seen that those on this thread have attempted to use that the manga proves against is that disrupting ones own chakra will allow you to escape ITACHI's Genjutsu and that knowing that making Eye contact with Itachi is the way he uses some of his Genjutsu's does not mean those powers are out of the question in that battle.
We all know that in the fight with Itachi Naruto was put in the finger Genjutsu:
Also Itachi admits that during this fight he could not use his Mangekyou Sharingan so this also adds to the Credibility of What I'm Saying about Itachi's Regular genjutsus.Here is Wisdom from Jiraiya on Genjutsu and how to escape.You must be registered for see images
He mentions that to remove yourself from a genjutsu you must add more chakra to disrupt your chakra flow. Naruto asks "What if even that doesn't work?" Jiraiya replying and telling Naruto a much more effective way of escape strongly implies that this method does not always work as proven here:You must be registered for see images
Here is naruto trying to free himself of Itachi's finger Genjutsu through disrupting his Chakra.You must be registered for see images
Itachi specializes in Genjutsu thus giving him the knowledge of when a Victim is attempting to free himself. Freeing yourself from Genjutsu through disrupting your own chakra is alot more difficult than said, do to the fact that your still inside the genjutsu when attempting to free yourself. Itachi is one to abuse the mentality of his Victims to the point where this method does not work:
In case this is not enough to prove that Genjutsu still works on Tsunade then I will give you a hypothetical Situation.You must be registered for see images
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You must be registered for see imagesItachi makes it intolerable for those trapped in his Mastery of Illusion. Therefore simply creating a giant surge of Chakra will not automatically break you free from Genjutsu even those not on Tsukuyomi level.
You guys are saying that with the help of Tsunade's Stored chakra in her forehead that would break her out of the Genjutsu, but Let's say itachi puts her in a Genjutsu and then she uses this Seal tp break free. What if Itachi put's her in another Genjutsu after the Seal? Because there is no longer any Surge of Chakra that she can produce on her own(without Katsuyu's help) would she still be able to break Itachi's Genjutsu? I think not but with the seal I am convinced that she has a free-be to get out of 1 of Itachi's Genjutsu's but being put another one after she uses this seal once because it's not longer a surge of Chakra now that it has mixed within her own. All That proof behind Solo breaking free from ITACHI's genjutsu not working was simply to build up for the theory that If he puts her in a Second Genjutsu after the seal that she will in a load of trouble.
I have also seen it argued that With knowledge that Itachi can cast Jutsu with eye contact, that Itachi can not trap his oppoent within a Genjutsu.
This is False;
Those who have Major Knowledge of the Sharingan always tends to get trapped do to their Admiration of the Sharingan, No ninja that has come across the Sharingan has not stopped for a moment to take a glanceand admire is look:
Both Deidara and Orochimaru did great research on the sharingan eyes in order to defeat Sharingan users yet the Sharingan itself draws it's oppoents into looking into their eyes.You must be registered for see images
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Kakashi had information of Itachi's Eye Genjutsus in their first battle and was still caught in one:
Both gave naruto numerous Sharingan fighting methods and he was still caught:You must be registered for see images
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Naruto had information from Kakashi and Chiyo and was Caught:
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Even Sasuke was caught in 3 of Itachi's Genjutsus and he has the most knowledge of Itachi's Techs:You must be registered for see images
Two of these Genjutsus he only used 3 Tomoe Sharingan. Itachi Uchiha is one Ninja that has proved himself Time and again that even with knowledge on him you will be put in a Genjutsu whenever he chooses.You must be registered for see images
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You must be registered for see imagesTo Summarize Since Tsuande has the Seal on her forhead and Katsuyu as a Summoning, with 3 Genjutsus Itachi would be effectiveely able to capture Tsuande in the Third one. 1 Genjutsu to gain control over Katsuyu, 2 To put Tsuande in a Genjutsu,3 To put Tsuande in a Genjutsu after the Seal frees her because after the seal and Katsuyu have been nullified she is free to be put in a Genjutsu. I talked about how the Disruption Method does not always Succeed and has a record as of Naruto vs Itachi, for failing against Itachi. Knowledge on Itachi's Techs does not remove the Risk of his Genjutsu. I also put a easy theory up for how Itachi could possibly defeat Tsuande.
Itachi would need 3 Genjutsus to Defeat Tsunade because it would take 3 Genjutsus for him to succeed and trapping her in one. Since you gave them both knowledge Itachi could easily put this method into Genjutsu to trap Tsuande could hold as well because I proved how the disruption method fails against itachi.My thoughts:
I feel is could go either way because with a Single blow Tsuande could end Itachi's Life but im leaning more towards Itachi because Landing a blow on Itachi is Damn Near impossible do to the use of his clones, genjutsus, his basic speed, the Sharingan can predict movements and Taijutsu. Itachi has shown he has great strength in Taijutsu. That One punch Tsuande needs will be almost to impossible for her to Land.
1. As I've stated and shown before, Katsuyu being a slug has no eyes. That's the way that she has been drawn. And in real life, slugs have optical tentacles, not eyes.
What does that mean? Means that slugs can swing their two retractable, light-sensitive optical tentacles independently to gaze at their surroundings. Optical tentacles, not eyes, once again. And that's a real fact, since someone called me retarded when I stated that Katsuyu cannot be put into a genjutsu because "she has eyes".
2. Katsuyu can absorb chakra if Tsunade lets her. In the panel you showed, Tsunade was lending all her chakra to Katsuyu in order to protect the villagers, she didn't took it by itself.
3. My argument was chakra control, not disruption. How can you induce chakra flows into someone's chakra who has perfect chakra control?
Again, I explained on the upper note there why Tsunade overcomes this finger trick. I don't want to get repetitive.
4. Yes, all my statements included that statement of Jiraya's as well. That is available for someone who doesn't have chakra stored and doesn't have a summon that could take her out of it. Even if it's without Katsuyu, Tsunade has been shown to release her seal with no handseals as stated by Madara himself, which means no movement.
5. Once again, you can't compare Naruto's chakra control with that of Tsunade's.
Regarding your hypotetical situation, I put you into another, to counter it.
What if Tsunade doesn't used all her chakra stored in the seal to break the genjutsu, what if she keeps more chakra to prevent that movement again as it would be expected from Itachi to try to use that technique again? She's not naive or anything less.
And take out of the consideration the seal. Genjutsu affects brainwaves. Tsunade has enough medical knowledge on how this could work and I already explained in previous posts of how she could get off that by having activated one of her technique. Creation rebirh for example. Anything that the jutsu feels that's wrong to the body (and here I am reffering myself as well to the senses because that's what Genjutsu/Tsukyomi does, it plays with your five senses), it gets it back in order. Basically what it would do, it would stabilyse the shockwaves transmitted to the brain so the brain's senses would still be normal therefore she would be capable to counter-attack.
6. The tendecy doesn't means that you will 100% do. I already stated on previous post why Tsunade hasn't shown any tendecy regarding such matter like Deidara and Orochimaru had.
7. Once again, you compare the experience of a 16 years old to the experience of a person in its mid 50's or something. That was a foolish thing to do from Sasuke.
I agree with your statement about Itachi, but we have never seen him fight Tsunade so we can't go on meere assumptions.
Also, from the same Itachi we have seen that he acknowledges Jiraya, one of the 3 Sannins. What makes you think he wouldn't do such with Tsunade as well?
With Orochimaru played because Orochimaru's weak point is the fact that he wants to know that much that he acts unresponsable and doesn't take care sometimes in the danger he puts himself in.
Take for example the meeting with Tsunade. She told him that she is not interested and so and that she will kill him so he'd better let her go, yet he still insisted, in the end for him being necessary to run-away from him.
Regarding your last statement I already showed through my posts how she would be able not to get caught.
Here I am.tsunade fans are coming up with comebacks if only chatte was here
A pretty decent opinion, only that I showed that Katsuyu has no ways of getting caught into a genjutsu.Pretty sure everything's been said so far, but here's my take on it simply for the shits. First off, I don't think any type of genjutsu Itachi dishes out could keep Tsunade down for the count, Sharingan or not. While Tsukuyomi is obviously too quick to disrupt, her healing abilities will be what saves her afterwards. All genjutsu aside, Tsunade is just not fast enough to **** with Itachi at all, and seeing as Taijutsu is the least taxing form of combat on the body Itachi will have no stamina problems. In the end all Itachi really has to worry about is Tsunades taijutsu (katsuya gets pwned by genjutsu), and that's not enough. Itachi having full knowledge is just the icing on the cake.
And I explained even how she would break from Tsukyomi as it has to do with brain injuries.
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