[Theory] Tobi = "Nagato Uchiha"

[pilyop]

Real Madara referred to Nagato as a brat and referred to Onoki as a kid.

He can't be referring to "Nagato/Pein" for that will make Pein as old as Onoki.

Real Madara must be referring to "Tobi/Nagato", his apprentice. This "Tobi/Nagato" has to be from the Uchiha clan too.

Real Madara imbued Tobi/Nagato powers including the Rinnegan. His task was to revive his master.

Instead, Tobi had other plans, assumed the character of his master, Madara (Tobi became fake Madara), gave his Rinnegan powers to another person, also named Nagato of the Uzumaki clan. Now Nagato/Pein's task was to revive Tobi if he ever dies, but instead used the technique in reviving Konoha villagers.

Tobi, being a student of Madara, is also a powerful Ninja but not on the level of the Real Madara. He was also able to control the demon fox and lead akatsuki. But he lost his arm with his fight with Torune and lost his left eye with his fight with Konan.

Of course, Tobi, being closely related to the mysterious Zetsu, was able to grow off his arm instantly. Tobi does not seem to have Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan, for when he used Izanagi against Konan, it closed, and had to "retrieve" the Rinnegan eye from Pein. In contrast, the Real Madara "awakened" the Rinnegan.

The last manga discards the "splitting theory" that Madara splitted himself somehow when he died, since Kabuto referred to Tobi as fake, and the demon fox never sensed anything on Tobi that closely resembles the real Madara (no reference in manga or anime whatsoever)

What are your thoughts?

 

[Capn FlapJak]

i was thinkin he had called Onoki a kid cause he knew him when he was young

 

[pilyop]

i was thinkin he had called Onoki a kid cause he knew him when he was young

That is true. In fact, they had fought in the past.

But how come the real Madara referred to "Nagato" as a brat? How come he is aware of "Nagato" if this "Nagato" = Pein?

He must be referring to some other Nagato.

 

[Zaxelzero]

but thats true how did he know of nagato?

 

[Kisaragi]

Nice and welcome to NB

 

[Nilloc Uzumaki]

Looking at this threads title, I thought for sure it was a troll thread. But after reading the theory, I can honestly say this theory makes as much sense as any. Good thinking!

 

[Zaxelzero]

Looking at this threads title, I thought for sure it was a troll thread. But after reading the theory, I can honestly say this theory makes as much sense as any. Good thinking!

My exact thoughts man!

 

[pilyop]

Nice and welcome to NB

Thanks

 

[Baka Sennin]

yeah i'd thought about this too. it ties up why madara knew nagato despite the age gap and expected him to revive him, and also tobi's claim that he gave nagato the rinnegan.

what i don't get is why tobi would give his eyes away? unless he was completely a madara experiment, zetsu (shodaime dna) combined with uchiha eyes in an attempt to awaken the rinnegan, which didn't fully work out? needing him to transplant to nagato as the last step...

 

[Sarutobi Sasuke]

Nice thread.

i was thinkin he had called Onoki a kid cause he knew him when he was young

This^

Real Madara referred to Nagato as a brat and referred to Onoki as a kid.

He can't be referring to "Nagato/Pein" for that will make Pein as old as Onoki.

Real Madara must be referring to "Tobi/Nagato", his apprentice. This "Tobi/Nagato" has to be from the Uchiha clan too.

Real Madara imbued Tobi/Nagato powers including the Rinnegan. His task was to revive his master.

Instead, Tobi had other plans, assumed the character of his master, Madara (Tobi became fake Madara), gave his Rinnegan powers to another person, also named Nagato of the Uzumaki clan. Now Nagato/Pein's task was to revive Tobi if he ever dies, but instead used the technique in reviving Konoha villagers.

Tobi, being a student of Madara, is also a powerful Ninja but not on the level of the Real Madara. He was also able to control the demon fox and lead akatsuki. But he lost his arm with his fight with Torune and lost his left eye with his fight with Konan.

Of course, Tobi, being closely related to the mysterious Zetsu, was able to grow off his arm instantly. Tobi does not seem to have Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan, for when he used Izanagi against Konan, it closed, and had to "retrieve" the Rinnegan eye from Pein. In contrast, the Real Madara "awakened" the Rinnegan.

The last manga discards the "splitting theory" that Madara splitted himself somehow when he died, since Kabuto referred to Tobi as fake, and the demon fox never sensed anything on Tobi that closely resembles the real Madara (no reference in manga or anime whatsoever)

What are your thoughts?

I think the term "Ryoutenbin Brat" Madara uses for Oonoki is more of a nickname/title that basically means "Fence-sitter Kid". I dont think it implies that Oonoki and the person Madara refered to as Nagato is about the same age.

I kinda agree with everything else though. Your right about the fact that the "Kyuubi recognizing Tobi at Naruto's birth" is in no way proof that the Kyuubi thought of Tobi as Madara. In fact, the Kyuubi's only response was "YOU!.." All that implies is that Tobi is very old and he had a previous encounter with the Kyuubi. Hypothetically speaking, Tobi might have accompanied Madara when Madara first moved to obtain the Kyuubi. And that might be how the Kyuubi and Tobi seem to be acquainted.

 

[th1s1guysays]

That probably explains everything just about. When Madara used his special techniques the kyuubi went insane and actually scared the thought of madara's presence existing again. I don't think the kyuubi even fears tobi. Tobi basically copied madaras plans but didnt follow through in reviving him correctly. He took on that role and when he saw Madara he was actually scared and he probably knew he had to get rid of kabuto after the war. I can't wait and see when tobi and Madara meet THATS when i think his mask will be taken off.

 

[-Liquid Cefka-]

To be honest, this the 1st theory I've actually finished reading without saying "f*ck it, I dont care" in a long time.

Wheather its likely or not, good theory ^^.

 

[Avani]

Kyuubi should be made to talk.

 

[hawaiianmike]

Looking at this threads title, I thought for sure it was a troll thread. But after reading the theory, I can honestly say this theory makes as much sense as any. Good thinking!

This^^^
Great theory dude!

 

[Avani]

The last manga discards the "splitting theory" that Madara splitted himself somehow when he died, since Kabuto referred to Tobi as fake, and the demon fox never sensed anything on Tobi that closely resembles the real Madara (no reference in manga or anime whatsoever)

What are your thoughts?

With so many theories around and Kishi doing it once again- he gave one answer and openned the pandora's box for many more. lol I won't be surprised if your theory turns out to be true or even if Tobi is just a Zetsu made by the body of the real Madara..

As for Kabuto raising question about fake madara's intention- that maybe a hint as well as a diversion. Madara didn't reply to it - he didn't confirm anything. But, that reminds me that after seeing the 6th coffin Tobi was cursing Orochimaru and wondring " how much did he know so maybe Kabuto is right after all.

I am just trying to make a time line and what we know about Madara till now:

If Madara was alive during the time of Nagato kid - it was the time of second shinobi world war. He died during that war somehow or around the same time.

Mu and Onoki both recognised Madara instantly and he spotted the brat as well.. Onoki might have met him only that time- tha's the only possibility comes to my mind.

Oro saw Nagato. Through Jiraiya, or otherwise he might have learned about rinnegan. Danzou escaped rinnegan attack either way and was in kahoot with Oro. If he was the Hokage Oro probably still would have been in the village... I degress.. Oro, joined Tobi and Nagato and left Akatsuki and yet was able to escape both Akatsuki and Konoha nins for long.

He was scientist, the guy who experimented with Hashirama cells and handled lots of sharingans planting them on Danzou and what not. He also liked to acquire information and knowledge and latter on got Kabuto to assist him.

So Oro would have probably known about the time of his death etc and had most info on him. He also got to study Tobi later on.

I don't remember correctly- but I don't think Manga ever said that Madara died in the battle with Hashirama- just that he was defeated or that Hashirama won.

It was that they just thought he was dead during current period and they were right since this Madara is an Edo.

What connection Tobi has with Madara is not clear- but he has been consistant in one thing- defending Madara on the issue of stealing Izuna's EMS and acting as if he was an Uchiha in some way.

Unlike edo Madara his face carries marks of aging. Didn't splitting tech of Mu is said to be similar- that the chakra is devided in just half and both parts are totally independednt and doesn't affect each other if one gets incapacitated but, splitted parts are weaker?

Madara invoked rinnegan right before his death- rinnegan allows it's weilder to use any tech or element the user wants. What if Madara knowing Mu's tech simply did the same before the mortal would and splitted himself somehow?

He might have known about the Uzumaki family and the kid Nagato in it and planned to use him if needed and expected his other half to work on it. But the part which remained alive changed the plan with time. ( or maybe I'm watching too much Si-fi >.<)

It's not like I'm sure about it but, I am nt just in favour of totally rejecting the idea either.

 

[pilyop]

Thanks for your opinions.

I've been reading other threads. A poster (floydical?) in NvG's thread made a good point about character development in a manga.

If Tobi is just another Uchiha clan member, it would be too convenient and would kill the excitement.

If this turns out to be true, I dunno how Kishimoto is going to patch things up. I hope I'm wrong.

 

[Honord Sage]

Look it quiet obvious Madara lived to see the started of the 3rd Ninja war and the old kage was older than the 3rd Hokage. Why are you confuse?

 

[pilyop]

Look it quiet obvious Madara lived to see the started of the 3rd Ninja war and the old kage was older than the 3rd Hokage. Why are you confuse?

Tsunade is what... 50-55 years old? So how old would her grandfather, the 1st Hokage, be? Say, for the sake of argument, her grandfather is 50 years older than her.

That would make Hashirama, more than a 100 years old.

It would then be reasonable to conclude that Madara is more than a 100 years old too. (I've seen a reference to this but I don't remember if it was in manga or anime)

And how old Nagato/Pein was when he died? 30-35 years old?

So you are suggesting that Madara lived up to around 75-80. And during this old age, Madara gained the Rinnegan, somehow planned the whole thing with Tobi, then imbued young Nagato/Pein with the Rinnegan before he died.

I cannot imagine the likelihood of this event, so yes, I am confused.

 

[akubas86]

The planning of event somehow has been greatly misconstrued as a great idea...I believe upon obtaining Rinnegan the real Madara would have able to read Uchiha's stone tablet thus knowing the requirement of Mugen Tsukoyomi (Eternal Tsukoyomi) and Juubi...

Of course they knew at the time about Tailed beast being controlled by respective nation. Thus, it is not greatly misleading the idea might had spawned back then to be put the it into fruition. Of course, it is not well thought, but I think it's believable that real Madara might had concocted rough idea on casting mugen tsukoyomi with tobi...Forming Akatsuki (A team to hunt bijuu)...

Tobi then set the entire thing into motion. Perhaps, this might even explain why Madara knew Nagato. Tobi and him might realized that Madara is not going to live long thus he has to be revived somehow by Rinne Tensei. Hence, came Nagato...

 

[Owarij]

Dude madara lived after his battle with hashirama...Lived long enough to meet child nagato.. Nagato was seen during the 2nd great shinobi war..Tobirama died in the first... and he looked like his age was high 20's,Mid 30's....The sannin looked relatively young also , at most i'd put them at 30 during their fight with hanzo

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Madara would only have to live about 36/40 years to have met nagato....Possbily putting him at like 70.....

Kabuto said he revived him to his prime/golden age .....so how his body looks now is how it looked in his prime and not what it really was....