Three Sannin vs. EMS Sasuke - Sasuke going on rampage

[shelke]

I love it how my counters are completely ignored for self-convenience. The Sanins lose. Please get over it.

 

[Piratefish]

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-> Considering how fast Amaterasu burns... I doubt it.

Considering the Raikage had ample time to attempt another attack, be blocked, decide not to continue AND hold a short conversation with Gaara before he cut away his arm, I am very much convinced of it. There was no noticeable spread of the black fire, even after all that.

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Your picture demonstrates little beyond Sasuke using a large amount of Amaterasu in a burst.

I love it how my counters are completely ignored for self-convenience. The Sanins lose. Please get over it.

I was wondering when my posts would be answered by either yourself or Strict, but I suppose your bursts of "self-convenience" are as good an explanation as I'm going to get.



Strict's unanswered bit:

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Obviously I never have, as I think Senjutsu techniques are on a different level to ones that aren't, since they include nature chakra and all. I apologize for my grievous error and will atone by reading through the series three times backwards.



Is that Sage Mode Naruto? Silly me, since his eyes are normal I foolishly assumed he wasn't, but he obviously IS.



Mei targeted Susano'o directly, while the Goemon targets EVERYTHING. Boiling oil is a VERY dangerous thing if you are directly hit (it can reach around 300C) and if Sasuke is submerged for even an instant he'll die in agony if he doesn't recieve help. The battlefield has a great deal to say as to the effectiveness of this tech, as a bowl type arena and Sasuke being in the center of it (which he may not realize is a bad idea) would be ideal.

Even if Jiraiya can't use Goemon, the Yomi Numa can be used to great effect even without Sage Mode or a terrain advantage.



Senninmode takes a while, but summoning the Elder Toads is an entirely different thing. If Toad Song is landed the fight ends, and Jiraiya isn't directly involved in the process at all. He is protected by Sage Mode from the effects, true, but he'll gladly accept temporary paralysis at the cost of victory, and the Fukasaku and Shima might be able to direct it well enough that it only targets Sasuke, and in any case Oro and Tsunade are probably uneffected. Even if they are the toads can slit Sasukes throat themselves. If the Sannin can protect the two of them for as long as it takes them to find a harmony, the battle is won.



Yes, but the hawk is never completely covered or safe, and when has (Shippuden) Sasuke ever shown concern for a fighting partner?

In my honest opinion the Sannin can EASILY take down any summon, partially Susano'o covered or not. It's bottom half is completely open, dammit!



I am refuting your blatantly wrong statements that Sasuke is completely impervious to ANYTHING the Sannin can do.

EDIT: It appears I was mistaken, Goemon is apparently not at actual boiling oil temperatures but at THOUSANDS OF DEGREES. Which means it VAPORIZES people in stead of boiling them and is, in fact, capable of melting Susano'o on its own. Since it's AT LEAST TWICE AS HOT AS LAVA.

Lava has a temperature of at most 1200 C, and since Goemon has been stated in the Databook to have the immense temperatures of AT LEAST TWICE THAT, Susano'o is reduced to a puddle in seconds.

Shelke's unanswered bit.

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Orochimaru made Sasuke immune to every possible poison except his own? That's not biologically possible OR medically feasible with the knowledge shown by ANYONE in the Narutoverse (it might not ever be achieved even in the real world). Orochimaru has NO chance to make Sasuke as toxic-proof as you suggest without EXTENSIVE bodily reconstruction (take a look at Oro HIMSELF), which has obviously not been shown.

I'll grant that Oro has granted Sasuke a high resistance to many common toxins, but Oro's poison is confirmed effective, and Myobokuzan tongue-secretion is NOT something Oro EVER had access to. He's not immune.



So, your hypothesis is that Susano'o is a completely impenetrable barrier for microscopic particles.

Logically, that means air doesn't penetrate. I give Sasuke five minutes at most before suffocating. There's no manga evidence he won't and if he removes Susano'o he'll be vastly impaired or even defeated by the toxins.



You are quite simply wrong. EMS grants resistance only to ocular genjutsu, as well as making sure even powerful genjutsu which still allow the eyes to function zare a bad idea.

That's not the case with the Toad Song.

Here's Sasuke and Itachi still being able to move while under Kabuto's genjutsu:

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They are cringing from the effects, it's obvious they still have mobility.

Kabuto even states that "It's obvious I'm the only one who can freely move."

That's not the case with the Toad Song:

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The Paths are only able to talk within the dimensional pocket (or whatever it is, it reminds me a bit of Tsukuyomi), even though their controlling mind is fully clear, which won't be the case with Sasuke.

The ONLY action the Paths were capable of:

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were a soft groan, which was more than likely an involuntary reaction to getting that stone sword shoved through the lungs.

Toad Song trumps Kabuto's genjutsu with ease. It makes sense, as it requires both two sages working together AND prep time to cast.



You have been severely underrating it. EMS does NOT grant earmuffs.



Amaterasu doesn't spread quickly. Has it ever shown any tendency towards that?

And Jiraiya could seal the flames if SOMEONE ELSE was caught in them. At least.



So, because the Acid Mist was corroding it and not melting it, Susano'o is UNMELTABLE?

That's not logical or even reasonable.

It's hard to say if Susano'o is ever in DIRECT contact with Amaterasu, and NO Susano'o has ever been covered in the flames for a prolonged periods. Do you disagree that Amaterasu can even HARM Susano'o?

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Amaterasu isn't even remotely connected to the manifested Susano'o. Could there be a reason for that? Also, the only confirmed targets ever hit by Enton are Zetsu Clones [AT CLOSE RANGE] and A, who did it to himself. It's perfectly possible the Sannin can dodge Enton at least.

Sasuke certainly can't DIRECTLY target the outside of Susano'o with Amaterasu unless it's in ribcage form (bad idea). Having to use Enton to cover the construct means that Tsunade landing a solid punch is at least POSSIBLE.



How can he cover a hawk large enough for him to stand on if he can't even cover his own bottom half?

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You're not seriously stating that Sasuke covers THIS with Susano'o?

Taking to the skies opens up the field and increases his mobility by a large amount, but it also opens up a whole new range of problems. The hawk is not invulnerable. As such, fall damage and crashlanding positions are a valid concern. Whether the Sannin can prepare a warm welcome once he reaches the ground is also more than likely:

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Jiraiya, as seen here, is capable of crossing a fair amount of distance AND forming a Senjutsu: Giant Rasengan before his sandal, which fell off in the previous panel, even hits the ground. That's not a soft landing, and the Rasengan actually blocks Jiraiya ENTIRELY from Sasuke's field of vision. Which is not a bad tactic at all. Sasuke may even attempt Amaterasu on the Rasengan (he has a history of tactically unsound decisions when faced with the spinning orb), which might actually end the match right there. Amaterasengan seems like a powerful technique to me.

 

[Tazzilla88]

@Tazzilla88. Here are my counters for all your points. I am not new to debates, and even as I post links and counters you'll come up with more things, ignoring what I post. But i'll bite regardless.

Jariya:

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Your fight point is wrong on two levels: One, that is an incomplete sussano, and secondly, Danzo broke through a very small portion of an 'incomplete Sussano' with Baku's Suction and his wind Vacuum Blade rush, whose power was greatly increased because of Baku's suction.

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.

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and Sasuke stabilized it, and gave danzo a punch before he could do anything.

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.

It's to be noted here that even at incomplete level, Sussano provides a much better defense than Gaara's:

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Thirdly, Sussano is not a physical but a manifestation of Chakra. There is nothing to suggest that it weight several tons when it's not a physical object at all. How would the hawk feel weight of spiritual energy? A debatable issue, isn't it?

Now for the step by step counters:

A: To fight the sanins, Sasuke will go immediately into Sussano mode, so this needle attack is virtually useless against a level 4, complete sussano:

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. Gaara couldn't scratch an incomplete Sussano with three jounins by his side, there is no way such a slight attack would even make Sasuke sneeze:

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- Sasuke taking on Gaara and three other ninjas.

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B: Amatersu eats through flames:

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. An effective wall or Kagatsuchi around his sussano will render any flame attack useless:

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or

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. Sussano, surrounded by a wall of Amatersu or Kagatsuchi will render any fire technique useless, that much is certain.

C: Swamp of the underworld uses two hand seals, and thus is far too slow for Amatersu and arrows, because both of them are quite instant:

Amatersu: A was fully anticipating the attack:

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, and look at this carefully:

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- The flames appear EXACTLY at that very instant and point where Sasuke wanted them. A was only able to dodge - as Shee pointed out - with his lightening release armour and Body flicker, and he BARELY did so. Had he not used both techniques, he would've been burnt to a crisp.

Why is it instant? It's so because of the following points:

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- Black Flames will burn on the point wherever the eye is focused.

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- Amatersu almost as fast as Kirin.
Amatersu goes wherever the eye goes:

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.

So it's safe to assume that Sasuke woun't just stand there like an idiot and let him use his hand-seals for swamp.

B: Arrows:

- To take advantage of the seals, he can use arrows as well, which were so fast that Danzo only dodge it with Izanagi as there was no time to form any seal at all:

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and

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. And Kakashi had to use Kamui:

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and

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.

C: Summons:

These can be taken out easily with one well-placed Amatersu flame, as they are very big targets or Magatama can also do the trick:

Amatersu: Sasuke using Amatersu on Hachibi and the flames almost instantly spread:

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Magatama:

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These summons won't pose any threat to Sasuke whatsoever. But will only heat up the atmosphere as Sasuke can create countless enton projectiles with Magatama, posing instant threat to the sanins. They'll be complete fools to even attempt a summon, as this'll only create an advantageous situation for Sasuke to create Kirin readily:

Sasuke used up all chakra for that jutsu alone:

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It was used to manipulate the rising air current and create the rain cloud:

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He took advantage of Amatersu heat as well :

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Here, he'll only have to use enough Amatersu Magatamas to create one.

D: Water: It's useless against Amatersu.

- The Sanin mode requires forever to initiate in case of Jiraya. Sasuke is not letting him get into it. During its transition, the only one who is a sitting duck, is Jiriya. Sasuke can take him out easily if he attempts to go into it with arrows, Amatersu, senbon, and magatama. Doemon is again a sage mode technique. He'll have to get into it first, and even if he does, one wall of Amatersu will render any fire technique completely useless as I mentioned above.

- Shadow clones are useless against Sasuke as EMS can detect mokuton clones as pointed out by Madara. So Sasuke will easily see through the clones.

Immune to poisons:

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.

E: Barrier and genjutsu points:

The sharingen has the following abilities in relation to the kaleidoscope techniques:

Sasuke is able to sense objects behind solid hindrances:

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- The sharingen can see chakra, even determining how much is left within a user.
Sharingen can detect Chakra disturbance:

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How will sasuke end up in a barrier and how will that dust cloud harm EMS in any way, when sharingen can do all of the above? As I said, Kabuto completely impaired the eyes. These jutsu is not doing it, hence its uselessness. I have repeatedly pointed it out.

Tsunade:

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A: Speed:

- Tsunade is much slower than A, as she lacks an armour which boosts speed and body flicker technique. This was pointed out by Madara as well:
How is she dodging Magatama, amatersu, or arrows - look at my above points for the speed of the techniques?

- Tsunade's duriblity is not more than an eight tailed beast that was screaming when Amatersu hit it square in the face (Refer to my points on amatersu for the links), when bijus have an immense amount of chakra, and instant healing abilities. Once hit, all she can do is writhe in pain and continue using the technique before Amatersu will eat through her chakra, body, and bones. It continues to burn for 7 days and nights once hit. There is no way in hell she's surviving that.

- Katsuyu can be easily countered with Kagatsuchi around the complete sussano, Magatama, and senbon. She won't be able to harm a complete sussano wrapped with Kagatsuchi and an additional wall of pure Amatersu around sussano like Sasuke did in his fight with Kabuto.

Orochimaru:

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- Most of your points are strange, and i don't know what to say. The 8 snakes will get hit with Amatersu and Sussano grabs are also great to tear off the heads and grab the Sanins as well, as they were quick enough to grab Kabuto's snakes while he was in DSM mode:

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.

- How will any snakes' coil or constricting will work when Sussano is encased in Katsuchi and has a wall of amatersu around?

- With Enton projectiles littered around the field with Magatama, how will he continue to shed skins?

- Are the gates faster than Amatersu, Magatama, or arrows? I don't think so.

These Sanins have ZERO counters for Sasuke's blaze releases , its variants, and its incorporation on complete sussano. Even arrows are too fast for them. Other than sealing by Jariya - which is a sluggish feat - they have nothing on them, and yet, all Sasuke has to do is use magatama and create a barrage of projectiles to take them out. None of them are fast enough to evade arrows, that have cleaved through thick structures:

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and

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and are so fast that they don't even give time to form hand seals, hence the reason why Kakashi used Kamui and Danzo Izanagi.

Also, once Sasuke abuses matagama, it'll take minutes to form thunder clouds, and no one is surviving kirin that obliterated an entire mountain, and Sasuke can manipulate its shape at will. Sorry, Sasuke takes this as you are forming points without taking anything from Sasuke's side. While I have already countered them at every page. So saying that he can't do this and that is just one-sided logic, as the Sanins have shown no featss that are fast and durable enough to counter all these indefinitely.

Just a few notes before I begin. Many of your links are not operational. And I know you aren't new to this forum, it was sarcasm directed toward your use of argumentation.

For Jiraiya:
1. My point was not wrong, In order to fly, the hawk will have to generate much more wind power than is necessary to already lift a giant hawk as it still has to lift Sasuke, and it now has to make up for the weight of Sussano. Which means the amount of wind power it would necessarily have to generate would probably rip a whole in the susanoo, and if not then the bird won't be in the air without proper aerodynamics. And the weight argument is not particularly debatable. Susanoo acts as a physical object. It can melt

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It can attack physical objects, and be attacked by physical objects.

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. It can be weighed down just as a physical object can be.

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There's no reason to assume that Susanoo doesn't have physical characteristics. Especially given the fact that Oonoki weighed them down which would suggest they have a definite weight.
I think you need to understand the Context of each argument. Susanoo will be a bigger hindrance for Sasuke than a protection. Which is where the Nizo Jizo comes in.
Now Your argument for Fire Jutsus makes no sense. Yes, in proportion Amaterasu can overwhelm fire, as it is a more powerful form of fire than a pure Katon. However, I think you think that means any quantity of Amaterasu will overpower all quantities of fire, and that logically doesn't follow. Itachi used his Amaterasu in appropriate proportions to the fire Sasuke used to subdue the flame. If it only takes a little Amaterasu to stop all katons why didn't Itachi just use a little bit of a katon. Point being, there has never been an Amaterasu nearly the size of the biggest Jiraiya's biggest katon. Thus rationally, Amaterasu will not serve as an adequate defense.

So your argument for Yomi Noma is it requires two hand seals and Sasuke will be looking at all the opponents with all three of his eyes? That is perhaps the weakest argument I've seen thus far. Especially considering Sasuke has never used Amaterasu in that manner before. He's never used Amaterasu as hand seal prevention. This argument is simply ridiculous.
I would also like to point out that both of your examples are flawed regarding the arrows. for Danzo you'd also be implying that shuriken are so fast that they cannot be avoided.

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For Kakashi, the point would be valid except for Danzo again. He managed to avoid it through the use of Mokuton. What's to stop Jiraiya from side stepping the arrow? Where does Sasuke's limit lie on the spamming of Susanoo arrows. We've never seen him use more than 3 without a heal. He doesn't seemingly have the stamina to spam Amaterasu and Susanoo. When he attacked Zetsu, there was no excessive spamming of Amaterasu. He's never been able to spam it.

Furthermore, Orochimaru was able to put up his Rashomon gates in the time block Naruto's bijuudama, Do you honestly believe the arrows and amaterasu move faster than Orochimaru's Rashomon gates?

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This jutsu also requires no hand seals nearly requires he touch the ground his own blood which means it can be nearly instant.
Now this next argument I find Ironic. Your saying the sannin will give him time to use Kirin, when they outnumber him 8 to 1. Yet, Sasuke is able to perfectly make sure that no one uses two hand seals.
Yeah no. Also in order to use Kirin wouldn't he necessarily have to far enough from them to make sure he isn't in the blast range? And I think something you overlook is the ability of the sannin's summons when it comes to Kirin. Katsuyu could easily absorb the blow and protect the sannin, whereas Sasuke would finished after Kirin, with no more juice left. The eso****us of the toad or even being inside of Bunta's moth should protect the sannin. Or going underground with Manda as was done here with Orochimaru and Manda.

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Although under this same methodology, Sasuke could be attacked in Susanoo by Manda.

You say that Sasuke won't just sit there and let Jiraiya use Sage Mode, but what real choice does he have when dealing when two sannin and 5 boss summons? Honestly, Jiraiya would appear to be the least menacing target, and therefore it is most likely that Sasuke would let him sit there.

Hold on there a minute, did you say Shadow Clones won't work because Madara said that only he could see beyond Hashirama's Mokuton Clones? I will point out 1. There is a large difference between a Mokuton clone and a Shadow clone they are not interchangeable. 2. There is a large difference between what Madara being able to know the difference between Hashirama's clone and Hashirama and the EMS having an automatic clone sensor applicable in all situations. 3Furthermore, even if it was automatic clone sensing that is an ability displayed by Madara not by Sasuke. That's like saying Shisui's MS possessed KA therefore KA is a MS ability. It doesn't hold as a valid argument.
Now speaking of people sitting around, when your forming your counters I love how you assuming everyone is just sitting around to see what happens except Sasuke.
Once again because we've not been able to see Sasuke spam EMS techniques it's foolhardy to blindly suggest he can. Water will without a doubt put out his regular katons which data suggests he will try to use, as he did try it when he was trying to spam attacks against Danzo.

I would agree that Tsunade is slower than A. But do me a favor and define much quantitatively. I'll wait. And Madara never said much. He said slower.

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However, Tsunade also proved that she has the best reaction time of all the current kages.

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You used the word Endurance, but Endurance has nothing to do with whether your screaming. I believe you meant mental fortitude. And I would argue that if she has the mental fortitude to attack through/withstand this :

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That she's not going to totally spazz out and flop on the ground now.
You say Katsuyu won't be able to harm Sasuke in full Susanoo. As I demonstrated in the katsuyu section, Katsuyu's acid is much stronger than Mei's. The only difference between full Susanoo and smaller version is the fact that it's denser. But because Katsuyu's acid is stronger it should still be able to easily eat through his susanoo.
Look at the size of Sasuke's Susanoo in relation to his body. Now consider the size of Manda in relation to Orochimaru's body. Given the fact that Manda is supposed to be smaller than Hydra form you'll have sell me another argument. And while your at it explain how Sasuke manages to divide all of his attention between Orochimaru's 8 eights + his actual body which in this fight can use jutsu, look out for the flying sword of kusanagi, while watching out for Manda, and Oro's other boss summons, then the 10,000 small snakes which are each armed with mini swords of kusanagi, while watching all of Jiraiya's summons, and Jiraiya, and Katsuyu and the many pieces she can divide into, and Tsunade.
Because if ultimately the snake dies, Sasuke's Susanoo is bug in comparison and would be smashed. And if he gets knocked over from say a strike from one of the giant serpents(similar to how Tsunade knocked over the much bigger clones of Madara), then Sasuke would find himself in a situation similar to the situation he was in against A.

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Which is another problem with your argument. When Sasuke calls himself going on a rampage he tries to go hand to hand first.

 

[Bogard]

Sasuke is probably the most overrated character i've ever seen in forums. Not because he is supposed to be main characters rival that he should be overrated like that. The only sannin he can win one vs one is Tsunade. Jiraya or Oro would spank him, let alone puting them in a team

 

[shelke]

@Tazilla You can easily see the chapter numbers from the links, hence it's only an excuse on your part.

I am going to keep this very short, and this will b my final reply, as most of your points are going around in circles rather than actual counters.

1: Jariya:

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- Why was the last form of sussano melting? There is a reason behind it, and I'll leave the digging to you as I am tired of giving links.

- Itachi's command over Amatersu is abysmal, and last time I checked Itachi never went at Sasuke with an intent to kill, hence you using Itachi as some sort of argument is weak argumentation on your part. A simple wall of Amatersu around Sussano and Kgatsuchi will declare all fire attacks impervious as the flame eats through fire and it won't spread beyond it. It's only common sense.

- LOL What? Are you serious? You comprehended my wall of argument in THAT sense? You got to be kidding me. The reason why I said that the sanin's technique requires handseals is that it will be too slow in front of technique like Amatersu and arrows that give zero time to the other to evade OR use handseals, hence Sasuke is not simply letting him perform the technique with Magatama, arrow or amatersu. Take your pick. Was that so hard to understand?

- You know what, forget it. Your points offer no counters to what I said and is a simple in-circle logic. Orochimaru created gates by putting his hands on the ground, and you think that is faster than Izanagi? Amatersu's instant factor and the summons being too big don't come as an argument loss on your side?

- A sussano wrapped with Kagatsuchi and a wall of raw Amatersu around it isn't a deciding factor in keeping enemies at bey in your book? One touch, and all of them will get burnt, regardless of their sanin status or it being freaking summon. Tsunade is useless in this regard.

You see? That's why I was not so thrilled about posting a full post. I posted counters links and what not, and you are talking about the SAME things again. Either look at chapters and arguments closely, or don't bother yourself or me. As nothing you have said has refuted or debunked my entire post.

Sasuke wins this. Take it which ever way you want, I am done with this thread.

 

[KidGamer65]

Sannin win.

 

[Turson]

Considering the Raikage had ample time to attempt another attack, be blocked, decide not to continue AND hold a short conversation with Gaara before he cut away his arm, I am very much convinced of it. There was no noticeable spread of the black fire, even after all that.

Amaterasu burns way faster when its being used, in other words when the user has his eyesight locked on target. Itachi burned through frog stomach in second, but when he was out of the picture and flames were left by themselves they werent enlarging the hole at all.

 

[Piratefish]

Amaterasu burns way faster when its being used, in other words when the user has his eyesight locked on target. Itachi burned through frog stomach in second, but when he was out of the picture and flames were left by themselves they werent enlarging the hole at all.

So Sasuke will maintain eye-contact with whatever target he burns to ensure it's taken out? Doesn't that, I don't know, strike you as a Poor Tactical Decision? You don't take your eyes off 2 Sannin and their summons, or most of the Sannin's summons and all three of them, and expect to live long.

 

[Turson]

So Sasuke will maintain eye-contact with whatever target he burns to ensure it's taken out? Doesn't that, I don't know, strike you as a Poor Tactical Decision? You don't take your eyes off 2 Sannin and their summons, or most of the Sannin's summons and all three of them, and expect to live long.

Its not like ha has to mentain eye contact for long. Frog stomach was burned in second, it was the same with Danzo.

 

[Piratefish]

Its not like ha has to mentain eye contact for long. Frog stomach was burned in second, it was the same with Danzo.

He'll have to look at any of the Sannin for a bit longer than a second to take them out(healing, Sage Mode, Hydra or White-Snake Mode), and that means not concentrating on at least 5 opponents. A Bad Idea. Not even going into how Amaterasu is not necessarily fatal or undodgeable for the Sannin, though their Summons are in trouble. Except Katsuyu.