Thinking Kakashi can take itachi or sasuke (with logic, reason and evidence)

[Lilt]

Of course.
Part I Kakashi was on par with base Itachi.

This wasn't the implication at all. Prior to using Tsukuyomi, Kakashi and Itachi said two things. The first was that Kakashi was exhausted. The Sharingan had already drained him and he would have given out soon. The second is that Kakashi stated that Itachi wasn't even using half his power, not including the Mangekyō.

Before Tsukuyomi, Itachi had quite easily been pushing Kakashi while not really moving at all. He was just standing still and casting jutsu that Kakashi could barely keep up with. In contrast with his fight against Killer Bee and shrouded Naruto, Itachi is an extremely mobile fighter that weaves ninjtusu, genjutsu, and shuriken attacks together in a blur. It's quite apparent that Itachi was just on another level, and his databook entry backs that up by stating that only someone on Itachi's level could "see" his true potential, while highlighting that Kakashi couldn't "see" Itachi's seals with the Sharingan.

 

[Takos]

You're not being logical. Prior to using Tsukuyomi, Kakashi and Itachi said two things. The first was that Kakashi was exhausted. The Sharingan had already drained him and he would have given out soon. The second is that Kakashi stated that Itachi wasn't even using half his power, not including the Mangekyō. Itachi had quite easily been pushing Kakashi while not really moving. We can see the vast difference in Itachi trying and not trying by comparing his bout with Kakashi to his skirmish with Killer Bee.

Kakashi was tired from fighting base Itachi, but not exhausted. Second, Kakashi stated Itachi wasn't using his full power, NOT that Itachi was using half of his power. Third, what's your proof that it was excluding the Mangekyo?

Now, here come my pieces of evidence:
-Kisame himself was surprised and stated that Kakashi was keeping up with Itachi
-Itachi doesn't spam MS, uses it only when necessary. The fact that he used MS against Kakashi means it was necessary.
The theory that Itachi used it only to save time is invalid as well, because in that case he would have used it right at the beginning of their fight. As I said, MS is only used by Itachi when it's a necessity, excluding torturing Sasuke, because it was part of his plan. After using MS just ONCE on Kakashi, Itachi became exhausted and immediately retreated.

only someone on Itachi's level could "see" his true potential

You just proved me right. Kakashi was the one to notice that Itachi did not yet use his full power, meaning he was the one to "see" his potential.

 

[Mrmojo8484]

no... itachi shows great skill at both taijutsu and ninjutsu in the series... it is clearly shown his sign weaving at miraculous speeds... his base speed wen flash steping around kicking ppl is shown not to be taken lightly... if i had to judge those two ppl at catagories, it would be: str-itachi, stamina-itachi, ninjutsu knowledge-kakashi, ninjutsu skill- itachi, genjutsu-itachi, taijutsu-close to tie,speed- slightly itachi...

Most fanboyish fodder I ever heard. How can you seriously say itachi is better at all these things? Kakashi has over 1000 jutsu and 4 element types. You have nothing to back up your claims, absolutely nothing. Garbage post.

 

[Takos]

Most fanboyish fodder I ever heard. How can you seriously say itachi is better at all these things? Kakashi has over 1000 jutsu and 4 element types. You have nothing to back up your claims, absolutely nothing. Garbage post.

Yep, but just keep in mind that one of his nature types is anime-only. In manga, he has 3. Though I'm just waiting for Kishi to show Kakashi using Fuuton and Katon. U_U

 

[Lilt]

Kakashi was tired from fighting base Itachi, but not exhausted.

He said he was "exhausted."

Second, Kakashi stated Itachi wasn't using his full power, NOT that Itachi was using half of his power.

The viz translation says less than half.

Third, what's your proof that it was excluding the Mangekyo?

Kakashi said "IMPOSSIBLE!?" when Itachi showed it to him afterward.

Now, here come my pieces of evidence:
-Kisame himself was surprised and stated that Kakashi was keeping up with Itachi.

As stated, Itachi was not trying his hardest. It's like keeping up with Frieza in his first form.

Itachi doesn't spam MS, uses it only when necessary. The fact that he used MS against Kakashi means it was necessary.

That's not true, given that he used it on Sasuke shortly afterward.

The theory that Itachi used it only to save time is invalid as well, because in that case he would have used it right at the beginning of their fight.

He used it to make a point to Kakashi: that he was using borrowed power.

After using MS just ONCE on Kakashi, Itachi became exhausted and immediately retreated.

He didn't retreat until Gai showed up and his reasoning was "we didn't come to start a war."

You just proved me right. Kakashi was the one to notice that Itachi did not yet use his full power, meaning he was the one to "see" his potential.

You misunderstand. He never saw Itachi attack at 100% because he wasn't strong enough to push him there.

 

[-Jiten-]

Sorry if sounds rude......... in advance

Bold comments are from Mrmojo8484
First of all, don't come in here spewing nonsense like one word answers. Please have logic/reason of proof to counter my points. On to the thread.

Vs Itachi

Im going to break these 2 down in 2 catagories: first being strengths, second being why I think kakashi can pretty much counter itachi.

1.Ninjutsu- Tie- Aside from the obvious Uchiha moves like susanoo and amateratsu and kakashis kamui, I think these 2 are even here. While itachi may possess superior hand seal speed, kakashi has a much wider range of jutsu at his disposal.

-->You said in starting no one word ans... but in Ninjutsu u just said kakashi has a much wider range of Jutsu..... Don't forget kaskashi don't have uchiha body, so i don't think he will be able to use much Ninjutsu. Here Itachi & Sasuke both have upperhand, they can use Ninjutsu parallel using Sharingan, MS & EMS.

2.Genjutsu- Itachi-obviously. However, if they had fought again, there is a reason why I think kakashi can nullify tsyukuomi. I'll explain it in part 2.

--> Didn't find ur Part2 explanation ... so for Genjutsu, as they say if there is a fight of Eye no one mess with Uchiha..

3.Taijutsu- Tie- While itachi has proven that his Taijutsu is a force to be reckoned with, I feel kakashis Taijutsu is severely underrated. I mean seriously...he fought Hidan with a kunai WHILE avoiding kakuzus masks.

---> Well u point out that Kakashi fought with Hidan with kunai while dodging kakuzu's mask... and didn't take this factor that Itachi fought with Sage kabuto & fought with kakashi with his only 30% chakra body..

4. Intellect-Tie- Both have proved to be the 2 most intellectual ninjas we have seen. I don't think either is smarter than the other. The winner of this fight needs something more. (Data book 3 backs up my first 4 points, so no arguing those.)


--->Well this one is oK
Here's why I think kakashi could win

When fighting most opponents, itachi likes to use first what he does best.....Genjutsu. While he incapacitated kakashi the first time with it, I don't think it would work on him again. The reason being: the same jutsu doesn't work twice on kakashi....he's too smart for that. He even told zabuza that and proved it to him. When kakashi fought the itachi clone in the anime, he distracted him and sent out a clone in his place which got caught in Genjutsu to no avail. I think this would work in a battle against the real itachi for 2 reasons: itachis fading eyesight and kakashis skill at making clones in combat. He even made a clone right in front of 2 paths of pain, a rinnegan user, and went completely undetected. Another notable comment to back my claim, chojis father even said kakashi always makes a clone toto test his opponents abilities first.

---> You give the example of Zabuza to prove that he won't fell for Itachi genjutsu again. Its total BS. don't compare zabuza nin with Itachi gen. these are two totally different thing. & even if he fell for his genjutsu, it'll be the end for kakashi.. because u don't need to put some1 in genjustu more than one time to beat him (except some1 release the genjutsu)
Kamui vs amateratsu/susanoo

I think kamui is an effective against both of these but I'll start with amateratsu. While the flames are deadly to anyone who comes in contact with it, I can gather one thing from this jutsus usage: it burns slowly. We've even seen 2 people use substitutions and one get his hand surgically removed before it caused any damage. Im pretty sure kakashi can kamui any fire that gets on him. We've seen his precise control over kamui in his fight against Tobi. The question is can he kamui amateratsu? If can kamui rasengans, lightning infused kunai and susanoos arrow , im sure he can kamui amateratsu.

--> Ok i agree he can kamui amateratsu.... but how many times dude... Kakashi has his limits ..say 3-4 times in a fyt .. and after that his chakra goes to zero. But Itachi don't have black flames limit. He can produce as many times he wants.. we saw in Itachi vs Sasuke fyt.

We know that itachis susanoo boasts to weapons of legend: the yata mirror and the blade of totsuka. Since itachi incorporated them into his susanoo, I think it's safe to say they are the same composition...and you know what that means. If he kamui susanoo arrow, I sure he can use it on the objects or susanoo itself leaving itachi wide open for rakiri. Yata mirror isn't deflecting a t/s attack.

--> WTH ... Blade of totsuka has no physical form, u cannot see him until u get stab by it .. so how in the world Kakashi Kamui it .... one cut and game over for Kakashi.


Final blow: kakashis rakiri. Itachi won't be able to dodge because of exhaustion and deteriorating eyesight. He can't counter this stronger faster version like he did sasukes. Not to mention kakashis has a good sharingan eye.


--> I think u remember when Sasuke use Kirin on Itachi & after that when for a while Itachi start coughing and his susano vanish sasuke try to attack him.. but even then he is able to recover his susano and defend himself..... point to be noted these movements are just before his death....


Last point there is no way Kakashi can beat an uchiha .... we can't help it kishi made them that way monster strong.... that can tamed a tailed beast ..... by there eyes...

 

[Mrmojo8484]

lol your such a fanboy, i like how you completely ignored my original post because it disproved your whole thread, but all you got was kamui works on everything lol. and you think tsukuyomi or susano are weak against kakashi lol no point in even respinding to you. and minato figured out obitos moves as well as konan and they both hit him. when did kakashi hit him again?

I did disapprove your post because it's fodder. Like I said, what hasn't the kamui worked against? If it wasn't for Tobi, kakashi would have soloed the gedo mazo.

I wouldn't say Minato figured out his abilities. That fight was just a matter of who's t/s was a split second.

Finally, kakashi threw the kunai and warped it, it cut tobis mask. Also, he warped narutos clone which lead to Tobi being hit. It's safe to say kakashis efforts= Tobi being hit.

 

[Warrex]

good points. I think he has a good chance, but I wouldn't say he'd def win... It would be an awesome battle to see them fight to the death.

 

[Mrmojo8484]

Sorry if sounds rude......... in advance

Bold comments are from Mrmojo8484
First of all, don't come in here spewing nonsense like one word answers. Please have logic/reason of proof to counter my points. On to the thread.

Vs Itachi

Im going to break these 2 down in 2 catagories: first being strengths, second being why I think kakashi can pretty much counter itachi.

1.Ninjutsu- Tie- Aside from the obvious Uchiha moves like susanoo and amateratsu and kakashis kamui, I think these 2 are even here. While itachi may possess superior hand seal speed, kakashi has a much wider range of jutsu at his disposal.

-->You said in starting no one word ans... but in Ninjutsu u just said kakashi has a much wider range of Jutsu..... Don't forget kaskashi don't have uchiha body, so i don't think he will be able to use much Ninjutsu. Here Itachi & Sasuke both have upperhand, they can use Ninjutsu parallel using Sharingan, MS & EMS.

2.Genjutsu- Itachi-obviously. However, if they had fought again, there is a reason why I think kakashi can nullify tsyukuomi. I'll explain it in part 2.

--> Didn't find ur Part2 explanation ... so for Genjutsu, as they say if there is a fight of Eye no one mess with Uchiha..

3.Taijutsu- Tie- While itachi has proven that his Taijutsu is a force to be reckoned with, I feel kakashis Taijutsu is severely underrated. I mean seriously...he fought Hidan with a kunai WHILE avoiding kakuzus masks.

---> Well u point out that Kakashi fought with Hidan with kunai while dodging kakuzu's mask... and didn't take this factor that Itachi fought with Sage kabuto & fought with kakashi with his only 30% chakra body..

4. Intellect-Tie- Both have proved to be the 2 most intellectual ninjas we have seen. I don't think either is smarter than the other. The winner of this fight needs something more. (Data book 3 backs up my first 4 points, so no arguing those.)


--->Well this one is oK
Here's why I think kakashi could win

When fighting most opponents, itachi likes to use first what he does best.....Genjutsu. While he incapacitated kakashi the first time with it, I don't think it would work on him again. The reason being: the same jutsu doesn't work twice on kakashi....he's too smart for that. He even told zabuza that and proved it to him. When kakashi fought the itachi clone in the anime, he distracted him and sent out a clone in his place which got caught in Genjutsu to no avail. I think this would work in a battle against the real itachi for 2 reasons: itachis fading eyesight and kakashis skill at making clones in combat. He even made a clone right in front of 2 paths of pain, a rinnegan user, and went completely undetected. Another notable comment to back my claim, chojis father even said kakashi always makes a clone toto test his opponents abilities first.

---> You give the example of Zabuza to prove that he won't fell for Itachi genjutsu again. Its total BS. don't compare zabuza nin with Itachi gen. these are two totally different thing. & even if he fell for his genjutsu, it'll be the end for kakashi.. because u don't need to put some1 in genjustu more than one time to beat him (except some1 release the genjutsu)
Kamui vs amateratsu/susanoo

I think kamui is an effective against both of these but I'll start with amateratsu. While the flames are deadly to anyone who comes in contact with it, I can gather one thing from this jutsus usage: it burns slowly. We've even seen 2 people use substitutions and one get his hand surgically removed before it caused any damage. Im pretty sure kakashi can kamui any fire that gets on him. We've seen his precise control over kamui in his fight against Tobi. The question is can he kamui amateratsu? If can kamui rasengans, lightning infused kunai and susanoos arrow , im sure he can kamui amateratsu.

--> Ok i agree he can kamui amateratsu.... but how many times dude... Kakashi has his limits ..say 3-4 times in a fyt .. and after that his chakra goes to zero. But Itachi don't have black flames limit. He can produce as many times he wants.. we saw in Itachi vs Sasuke fyt.

We know that itachis susanoo boasts to weapons of legend: the yata mirror and the blade of totsuka. Since itachi incorporated them into his susanoo, I think it's safe to say they are the same composition...and you know what that means. If he kamui susanoo arrow, I sure he can use it on the objects or susanoo itself leaving itachi wide open for rakiri. Yata mirror isn't deflecting a t/s attack.

--> WTH ... Blade of totsuka has no physical form, u cannot see him until u get stab by it .. so how in the world Kakashi Kamui it .... one cut and game over for Kakashi.


Final blow: kakashis rakiri. Itachi won't be able to dodge because of exhaustion and deteriorating eyesight. He can't counter this stronger faster version like he did sasukes. Not to mention kakashis has a good sharingan eye.


--> I think u remember when Sasuke use Kirin on Itachi & after that when for a while Itachi start coughing and his susano vanish sasuke try to attack him.. but even then he is able to recover his susano and defend himself..... point to be noted these movements are just before his death....


Last point there is no way Kakashi can beat an uchiha .... we can't help it kishi made them that way monster strong.... that can tamed a tailed beast ..... by there eyes...

Spoken like a true fanboy. You act as if an Uchiha can't be best. Hashi fodderized Madara to the point where he stole his powers and faked his death until after hashi died. Danzo fodderized shisui and forced the great itachi to kill his clan. Minato fodderized obito.

 

[Takos]

He said he was "exhausted."

I'd like the scan, please. Maybe you're correct.

The viz translation says less than half.

I have no access to Viz translation, the best I have is:

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Please show me Viz scan for this one as well, if you could.

Kakashi said "IMPOSSIBLE!?" when Itachi showed it to him afterward.

It's obvious Kakashi knew before Itachi used MS that Itachi had it. Kakashi knew some basic things about MS and that was before he even knew he had MS himself all this time.
Kakashi didn't expect Itachi to use it out of a sudden.

As stated, Itachi was not trying his hardest.

I'm not disagreeing with this. And neither was Kakashi.

That's not true, given that he used it on Sasuke shortly afterward.

I said that Sasuke is a different matter, because it was part of Itachi's plan. It was NOT his plan, however, to put Kakashi under Tsukyomi. During Itachi's and Kisame's escape from Jirayia, Itachi himself stated it was unwise to use MS twice.

He used it to make a point to Kakashi: that he was using borrowed power.

That's silly, because there's no indication of that. Itachi is not Sasuke, he does not spam MS and deteriorate his sight just because he wants to show-off.

He didn't retreat until Gai showed up and his reasoning was "we didn't come to start a war."

Nope, Kakashi was later shown to have analyzed it and concluded that this was an excuse. Itachi didn't disagree with that, when Kakashi told him about it.

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[Mrmojo8484]

This wasn't the implication at all. Prior to using Tsukuyomi, Kakashi and Itachi said two things. The first was that Kakashi was exhausted. The Sharingan had already drained him and he would have given out soon. The second is that Kakashi stated that Itachi wasn't even using half his power, not including the Mangekyō.

Before Tsukuyomi, Itachi had quite easily been pushing Kakashi while not really moving at all. He was just standing still and casting jutsu that Kakashi could barely keep up with. In contrast with his fight against Killer Bee and shrouded Naruto, Itachi is an extremely mobile fighter that weaves ninjtusu, genjutsu, and shuriken attacks together in a blur. It's quite apparent that Itachi was just on another level, and his databook entry backs that up by stating that someone on Itachi's level could "see" his true potential, while highlighting that Kakashi couldn't "see" Itachi's seals with the Sharingan.

Funny kakashi supposedly couldn't see his hand seals yet he countered everything itachi did including his shuriken trick.

 

[NarutoIndra]

Lol did anyone read the first sentence? He said give evidence or proof, yet I hardly see anyone giving any proof. Didn't Tobi Kamui Amateratsu after Sasuke's encounter with him, when Itachi had done something to Sasuke in their final fight (don't remember what it was) to activate among seeing Tobi's eye? I'm pretty sure the only thing possible for him to have done with the amateratsu was kamui.

 

[-Jiten-]

Spoken like a true fanboy. You act as if an Uchiha can't be best. Hashi fodderized Madara to the point where he stole his powers and faked his death until after hashi died. Danzo fodderized shisui and forced the great itachi to kill his clan. Minato fodderized obito.

i said before sry if i sound rude... abt uchiha cannot be beat .. i said kakshi can't beat them .... I can give u several names tht can defeat itachi & sasuke
1. Mu
2. kisame maybe
3. hasi
4. tobirama
5. Jiraya maybe
6. pein
7. Naruto maybe

I already explain every counters that u give .. but instead of countering me ur saying iam a fan boy.. . Don't make threads lyk this if u can't handle the comments

 

[Mrmojo8484]

Im sorry but slot of people here aren't giving me any real proof that itachi can best kakashi. Im not saying itachi wouldn't win but I think if they fought 10 times kakashi would win 5 maybe 6.

You all keep saying itachi is more skilled but the databooks not what I read in the manga is agreeing with this statement. The only categories itachi has a true advantage in is genjutsu and weapons. I don't think that's enough to defeat the copy ninja.

 

[Turson]

Lol did anyone read the first sentence? He said give evidence or proof, yet I hardly see anyone giving any proof. Didn't Tobi Kamui Amateratsu after Sasuke's encounter with him, when Itachi had done something to Sasuke in their final fight (don't remember what it was) to activate among seeing Tobi's eye? I'm pretty sure the only thing possible for him to have done with the amateratsu was kamui.

That was Izanagi IMO, since right after Obito said that luckily, even Itachi didnt know everything about him, so it had to be some ability unknown to Itachi, it couldnt be Kamui. Besides, his clothes werent burned, just like nothing happened.

As for the thread, Kakashi has some chances, but Itachis and Sasukes are bigger. They have more ways to take him down, and MS techniques arent taxing them nearly as much.

 

[Takos]

That was Izanagi IMO, since right after Obito said that luckily, even Itachi didnt know everything about him, so it had to be some ability unknown to Itachi, it couldnt be Kamui. Besides, his clothes werent burned, just like nothing happened.

As for the thread, Kakashi has some chances, but Itachis and Sasukes are bigger. They have more ways to take him down, and MS techniques arent taxing them nearly as much.

I agree with this post, however, I'd say Kakashi's MS is now less taxing for him than Itachi's. Sasuke has EMS, so it's a different story, though.

 

[-Jiten-]

Im sorry but slot of people here aren't giving me any real proof that itachi can best kakashi. Im not saying itachi wouldn't win but I think if they fought 10 times kakashi would win 5 maybe 6.

You all keep saying itachi is more skilled but the databooks not what I read in the manga is agreeing with this statement. The only categories itachi has a true advantage in is genjutsu and weapons. I don't think that's enough to defeat the copy ninja.

Just Counter my points dude ... & don't wry iam not fanboy, just want some nice debate ..

 

[Mrmojo8484]

i said before sry if i sound rude... abt uchiha annot be beat .. i said kakshi can't beat them .... I can give u several names tht can defeat itachi & sasuke
1. Mu
2. current
3. hasi
4. tobirama
5. Jiraya maybe
6. pein
7. Naruto maybe

I already explain every counters that u give .. but instead of countering me ur saying iam a fan boy.. . Don't make threads lyk this if u can't handle the comments

No point in countering you. Hell, you said the same B.S. everyone else said. Once again, how is itachi and sasuke better at ninjutsu? Some of sasukes best ninjutsu stemmed from chidori and who taught him that? Kakashi. As for itachi, he rarely used ninjutsu all he does is spam Genjutsu. How many jutsu did itachi actually use before he died?

1.water clone/water clone explosion
2.fireball
3. Same 3 Uchiha jutsu

He kakashi used more ninjutsu in his fight with Zabuza than itachi used all manga up until his death.

 

[Turson]

I agree with this post, however, I'd say Kakashi's MS is now less taxing for him than Itachi's. Sasuke has EMS, so it's a different story, though.

Well, sick Itachi could be screwed, thats true.

While the flames are deadly to anyone who comes in contact with it, I can gather one thing from this jutsus usage: it burns slowly.

Only flames that are left by themselves burns slowsly. If the user is using this technique directly on target, focusing his eyesight on it, they burns very fast.

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[-Jiten-]

Enjoy u r thread dude .....