I don't need your pity. This is my opinion and it won't chage. A lot of people on this base refuse to see what Hashirama is: ONE OF THE MOST OP NINJA EVER. Also, Hashirama doesn't cheat to be the strongest (stealing dna/jutsus, reviving the dead etc).
Shin SuuSenju would fodderize Kurama. This technique is SUPERIOR to perfect Susanoo and Kurama together has seen in the manga.
Manga: Shin SuuSenju>Perfect Susanoo or full Kurama alone, not hard to understand because it's a manga fact.
Just adding Perfect Sussano armored full Kurama > Shin Suu Senjuu - Manga fact as well , read it correctly next time, sometime deep meaning of panel is hidden and only some people can read and comprehend it without pure fanboying.
If you can post me scan Shin Suu Senjuu defeating Perfect Sussano and Kurama at the same time, then we can talk and I will admit my loss , but wait... you can't as there was nothing like that in the manga.
Shin Suu senjuu first destroyed Perfect Sussano armor AND ONLY AFTER Shin Suu Senjuu PUT TO SLEEP(not beat) JUST A SECOND AGO AWAKEN FULL KURAMA FROM MADARA's CONTROL(Was Kurama at full power after awakening, well I doubt.)
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^^ I don't remember where But it was said that Shukaku was slowly growing in power as it's powers were surprassed for such long time before... here Gamabunta may suggest it indirectly..., that same happened to Kurama.
Kurama was slowly restoing it's own sense along with powers which were surprassed by Madara then suddenly Hashirama put it to sleep before Kurama can react even.
Absolutely disagree. You completely twisted a scan to fit your opinion. You said "because Kurama was under control he couldn't move from it" this is a fallacy because Madara had been moving him within Perfect Susano'o and you have no proof to deny that claim that he couldn't move. Nor do you mention that the combined assault of the TWELVE PS ENHANCED BIJUUDAMA'S, failed to take down Shinsenjuu as a whole, adhering to its immense durability. Furthermore, Shinsenjuu took down both Perfect Susano'o AND Kurama (put to sleep) before Hashirama deactivated it. It is canon that Shinsenjuu is > PS And Kurama and most definitely on their own Shinsenjuu annihilates.
Absolutely disagree. You completely twisted a scan to fit your opinion. You said "because Kurama was under control he couldn't move from it" this is a fallacy because Madara had been moving him within Perfect Susano'o and you have no proof to deny that claim that he couldn't move. Nor do you mention that the combined assault of the TWELVE PS ENHANCED BIJUUDAMA'S, failed to take down Shinsenjuu as a whole, adhering to its immense durability. Furthermore, Shinsenjuu took down both Perfect Susano'o AND Kurama (put to sleep) before Hashirama deactivated it. It is canon that Shinsenjuu is > PS And Kurama and most definitely on their own Shinsenjuu annihilates.
Only true if you mean Shin Suu Senjuu > PS and Shin SuuSenjuu > Full Kurama SEPARATELY
1) Shin Suu Senjuu most likely can beat PS Then AFTER SHORT BREAK Beast Full Kurama - agree
2) Shin Suu Senjuu can beat for sure PS *Take a long break* then beat Full Kurama - agree
But:
3) Shin Suu Senjuu can NOT BEAT PS and Full Kurama at the same time !
I will admit that you are right about #3th point, if you can bring me evidence from the manga showing Shin Suu Senjuu beating PS and Full Kurama at the same time... I am waiting
Only true if you mean Shin Suu Senjuu > PS and Shin SuuSenjuu > Full Kurama SEPARATELY
1) Shin Suu Senjuu most likely can beat PS Then AFTER SHORT BREAK Beast Full Kurama - agree
2) Shin Suu Senjuu can beat for sure PS *Take a long break* then beat Full Kurama - agree
But:
3) Shin Suu Senjuu can NOT BEAT PS and Full Kurama at the same time !
I will admit that you aright about #3th point, if you can bring me evidence from the manga showing Shin Suu Senjuu beating PS and Full Kurama at the same time... I am waiting
Absolutely disagree. You completely twisted a scan to fit your opinion. You said "because Kurama was under control he couldn't move from it" this is a fallacy because Madara had been moving him within Perfect Susano'o and you have no proof to deny that claim that he couldn't move. Nor do you mention that the combined assault of the TWELVE PS ENHANCED BIJUUDAMA'S, failed to take down Shinsenjuu as a whole, adhering to its immense durability. Furthermore, Shinsenjuu took down both Perfect Susano'o AND Kurama (put to sleep) before Hashirama deactivated it. It is canon that Shinsenjuu is > PS And Kurama and most definitely on their own Shinsenjuu annihilates.
I know it's overrated. If Madara really wanted to kill Hashirama he would just step back a distance and cut Shinsuusenju down with his sword. But Madara just wanted to get Hashirama dna which he did.
Shinsuusenju was superior to Kyuubi with Susanoo armor > PS. Susanoo was removed at any rate due to the power of Shinsuusenju, and the Kyuubi put asleep after. Without the Kyuubi, the perfect Susanoo would have been shattered. Just look at Shinsuusenju's size and the magnitude of its punches. If they attacked simultaneously, the slash would have had to cut through the dozens of arms pummeling Susanoo.
They both clashed with their very strongest attacks. That was Chojo Kebutsu vs. the max. number of Bijuudama's which can be shot at once and were upgraded by the perfect Susanoo's sword blades. There would be no reason to hide his most effective attack.
Are we really speaking about same topic using same word ? Key word: AT THE SAME TIME
I am afraid you don't understand meaning "At the same time ", so let me explain my point to you
If Shin SuuSenjuu with help of one attack defeated PS and full Kurama Then I agree, BUT THIS IS NOT THE CASE
Shin Suu Senjuu with help of barage of punches destroyed Perfect Sussano and then HAD TO USE ANOTHER Attack/move (Put it's arm on Full Kurama ) to put Kurama to sleep.
This is what beating at the same time mean:
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^^ Obito beat Naruto and Sasuke AT THE SAME TIME, by slamming their in ground.
Obito needed ONE MOVE
While Shin SuuSenjuu NEEDED TO TWO MOVES WITH ONE AT PS AND SECOND ON FULL KURAMA
True it was able to stalemate with PS + Kyuubi but it couldn't BEAT KYUUBI AND PS AT THE SAME TIME.
Are we really speaking about same topic using same word ? Key word: AT THE SAME TIME
I am afraid you don't understand meaning "At the same time ", so let me explain my point to you
If Shin SuuSenjuu with help of one attack defeated PS and full Kurama Then I agree, BUT THIS IS NOT THE CASE
Shin Suu Senjuu with help of barage of punches destroyed Perfect Sussano and then HAD TO USE ANOTHER Attack/move (Put it's arm on Full Kurama ) to put Kurama to sleep.
This is what beating at the same time mean:
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^^ Obito beat Naruto and Sasuke AT THE SAME TIME, by slamming their in ground.
Obito needed ONE MOVE
While Shin SuuSenjuu NEEDED TO TWO MOVES WITH ONE AT PS AND SECOND ON FULL KURAMA
I hope it clears up
Now, please tell me why the Kurama here isn't beat down completly laying on ground with wounds:
Shinsuusenju was superior to Kyuubi with Susanoo armor > PS. Susanoo was removed at any rate due to the power of Shinsuusenju, and the Kyuubi put asleep after. Without the Kyuubi, the perfect Susanoo would have been shattered. Just look at Shinsuusenju's size and the magnitude of its punches. If they attacked simultaneously, the slash would have had to cut through the dozens of arms pummeling Susanoo.
They both clashed with their very strongest attacks. That was Chojo Kebutsu vs. the max. number of Bijuudama's which can be shot at once and were upgraded by the perfect Susanoo's sword blades. There would be no reason to hide his most effective attack.
This however wasn't the full Kyuubi, just as little his true, durable but a Chakra entity which is a lot of smaller than the 100% Kyuubi. That Kyuubi Chakra entity has probably the size of one of Shinsuusenju's thousand hands. The Shinsuusenju would destroy it indubitably.
The Shinsuusenju isn't underrated in any way. It's the most powerful technique of the most powerful Shinobi of all time.
If Shin SuuSenjuu with help of one attack defeated PS and full Kurama Then I agree, BUT THIS IS NOT THE CASE
Shin Suu Senjuu with help of barage of punches destroyed Perfect Sussano and then HAD TO USE ANOTHER Attack/move (Put it's arm on Full Kurama ) to put Kurama to sleep.
This however wasn't the full Kyuubi, just as little his true, durable but a Chakra entity which is a lot of smaller than the 100% Kyuubi. That Kyuubi Chakra entity has probably the size of one of Shinsuusenju's thousand hands. The Shinsuusenju would destroy it indubitably.
The Shinsuusenju isn't underrated in any way. It's the most powerful technique of the most powerful Shinobi of all time.
Well all of you wrote is truth, but it wasn't my point
I only wanted to show what beating at the same time means. It doesn't matter if kurama was 50% or 100% in this case because I just wanted to prove meaning, instead of comparing characters at all where something like that matters.
If PS and Kurama are separated, then he puts Kurama to sleep and finishes off PS, as neither can deal serious damage to Hashirama alone, yet he can take them out one at a time very very quickly using Shinsuusenju.
Kurama's power being too great doesn't mean that its too great for him to handle, cause if it weren't, then he wouldn't have been able to do anything to it let alone subdue and seal it away. It simply means that his power is too great for him to roam around free.
We've seen his arsenal and its as clear as a star in the night sky that he'd stomp any Bijuu 1 on 1, Kurama is no exception. List of combos that would rape a Full Kurama.
-Myoujinmon + Kakuan Nitten Suishu.
-Shinsuusenju+Kakuan Nitten Suishu.
No Bijuu stands a chance against Hashirama, not even Kurama.
The only thing Hashirama would have trouble with in case of the kyuubi would be the mega bijuu dama which is too big to be stopped with a hand and would take out a major chunk of shinsuusenju when it explodes
The only thing Hashirama would have trouble with in case of the kyuubi would be the mega bijuu dama which is too big to be stopped with a hand and would take out a major chunk of shinsuusenju when it explodes
I'd just like to take a moment and say that pain is stonger than hashirama.
Ok bye.
Also, chibaku tensei is actually bigger than shinsuusenju. So if a chibaku tensei where to fall on the shinsuusenju, who know what could crush hashirama?
If PS and Kurama are separated, then he puts Kurama to sleep and finishes off PS, as neither can deal serious damage to Hashirama alone, yet he can take them out one at a time very very quickly using Shinsuusenju.
Kurama's power being too great doesn't mean that its too great for him to handle, cause if it weren't, then he wouldn't have been able to do anything to it let alone subdue and seal it away. It simply means that his power is too great for him to roam around free.
We've seen his arsenal and its as clear as a star in the night sky that he'd stomp any Bijuu 1 on 1, Kurama is no exception. List of combos that would rape a Full Kurama.
-Myoujinmon + Kakuan Nitten Suishu.
-Shinsuusenju+Kakuan Nitten Suishu.
No Bijuu stands a chance against Hashirama, not even Kurama.
Well you brought really nice points... but unfortunetly Kishi had to keep 100 % Kurama holding back in battle as you can see here:
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^^ Kurama is unharmed and unfazed by Shin SuuSenjuu attacks.
Then:
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^^ Kurama is caught and grabbed by Shin SuuSenjuu while STILL BEING UNDER MADARA's Control (do nothing to stop Shin Suu Senjuu and Kurama has still a lot of fire power, to at least charge another tailed beast bomb)
and finally here:
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^^ Kurama wakes up, get released from Madara's control while still being grabbed and kept in Shin SuuSenjuu's arm then before Kurama can restore it's senses it is PUT TO SLEEP (That How afraid Hashirama was to face full rage of fully awaken 100% Kurama)
So, I only agree to these statements:
Shin SuuSenjuu > PS and Shin Suu Senjuu > PS + sleeping/just awoken Kurama.
And we know frong long time since Gara vs Naruto part 1 battle that Tailed beast as Shukaku for example was weak after restoring it's own sense and slowly was regaining his strength...
So Kurama was NOT even at it's best after being awoken...
Well you brought really nice points... but unfortunetly Kishi had to keep 100 % Kurama holding back in battle as you can see here:
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^^ Kurama is unharmed and unfazed by Shin SuuSenjuu attacks.
Then:
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^^ Kurama is caught and grabbed by Shin SuuSenjuu while STILL BEING UNDER MADARA's Control (do nothing to stop Shin Suu Senjuu and Kurama has still a lot of fire power, to at least charge another tailed beast bomb)
and finally here:
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^^ Kurama wakes up, get released from Madara's control while still being grabbed and kept in Shin SuuSenjuu's arm then before Kurama can restore it's senses it is PUT TO SLEEP (That How afraid Hashirama was to face full rage of fully awaken 100% Kurama)
This is all your assumption that Kurama could have continued firing off right after he had just finished firing off 11 Bijuu Dama. Not to mention any Bijuu Dama he could have fired in that time period would have been caught with ease, Madara would have done this if it would have helped, but he knew that it wouldn't have helped so he didn't even bother.
Kishi didn't hold anyone back, Hashirama was just stronger.
So, I only agree to these statements:
Shin SuuSenjuu > PS and Shin Suu Senjuu > PS + sleeping/just awoken Kurama.
And we know frong long time since Gara vs Naruto part 1 battle that Tailed beast as Shukaku for example was weak after restoring it's own sense and slowly was regaining his strength...
So Kurama was NOT even at it's best after being awoken...
Manga didn't show us anything listed above. Manga showed us that Shinsuusenju took down Kurama and PS at VoTE. Its as simple as that. You using hypotheticals to prove your point pretty much solidified that you have no real argument.
This is all your assumption that Kurama could have continued firing off right after he had just finished firing off 11 Bijuu Dama. Not to mention any Bijuu Dama he could have fired in that time period would have been caught with ease, Madara would have done this if it would have helped, but he knew that it wouldn't have helped so he didn't even bother.
Kishi didn't hold anyone back, Hashirama was just stronger.
Manga didn't show us anything listed above. Manga showed us that Shinsuusenju took down Kurama and PS at VoTE. Its as simple as that. You using hypotheticals to prove your point pretty much solidified that you have no real argument.
When it was stated that Madara's controlling Kurama would force Kurama to use it's 100% of power ?
Why didn't Kishi let full Kurama to fully awake and then make Shin Suu senjuu deal with it , hmm ?
Let's me say you what the manga truelly showed to us is:
Shin SuuSenjuu > PS + Full Kurama under Madara's control
Madara loosing only due to lack of chakra reserves to keep fighting, to me Kurama looked fine so it was not out of gas/power for sure. However Controler couldn't continue this battle.
Full Kurama at rampage against Shin Suu senjuu's outcome is unknown and will stay like that until Kishi answer it... although most likely Shin SuuSenjuu is supperior, I am sure that gap is small.
Yeah, Shin Suusenjuu was holding sleeping Kurama(who didn't move/tried to evade cause of Madara loosing his breath) and while being in grasp JUST AWOKEN was put to sleep by Shin SuuSenjuu which has luxury to keep Kurama already in hand...
Good luck to Hashirama and Shin Suusenjuu if Madara has still power or if Kurama was at 100% against him uncontrolled,
Only Perfect Jin are able to use 100% power of Bijuu... that what I believe at least basing on the manga panels so far.
It wouldn't be piece of cake... that what I can assure you
When was it stated that he wasn't? Its a battle to the death, there is no reason to believe he held back, unless you have some evidence for believing so.
Why didn't Kishi let full Kurama to fully awake and then make Shin Suu senjuu deal with it , hmm ?
Already explained this in my last post. Kurama could have awakened beforehand, the result would have been the same. Madara was still in control but didn't attempt this, cause he knew the result would be the same.
Let's me say you what the manga truelly showed to us is:
Shin SuuSenjuu > PS + Full Kurama under Madara's control
Madara loosing only due to lack of chakra reserves to keep fighting, to me Kurama looked fine so it was not out of gas/power for sure. However Controler couldn't continue this battle.
Madara lost because his greatest offensive weapons were disabled.
-PS was destroyed.
-Kurama was put to sleep.
Full Kurama at rampage against Shin Suu senjuu's outcome is unknown and will stay like that until Kishi answer it... although most likely Shin SuuSenjuu is supperior, I am sure that gap is small.
Its not unknown, we've already seen Full Kurama can't beat Buddha or Hashirama's base arsenal by itself, hence why Madara used PS with it.
Yeah, Shin Suusenjuu was holding sleeping Kurama(who didn't move/tried to evade cause of Madara loosing his breath) and while being in grasp JUST AWOKEN was put to sleep by Shin SuuSenjuu which has luxury to keep Kurama already in hand...
So a giant Bijuu is going to evade a hand far bigger than it coming down at it? Yeah, right. Madara was still in control, if he could have evaded, he would have, but he couldn't so he didn't.
Good luck to Hashirama and Shin Suusenjuu if Madara has still power or if Kurama was at 100% against him uncontrolled,
If Madara still had power to control Kurama, any Bijuu Dama it could have fired get caught and slammed back into it. Then it gets put to sleep. Shinsuusenju would utterly destroy any Bijuu 1 on 1. It isn't even a fight.
It wouldn't be piece of cake... that what I can assure you
