I'm back! I know I'm probably annoying you but you've really got me thinking about this theory.
I guess I should start by saying that after going back over some manga chapters you've got me convinced that unlocking the Rinnegan doesn't need Senju DNA. I'm also convinced that Madara gave Nagato the Rinnegan. But I think there is a deeper reason as to why Madara specifically wanted an Uzumaki/Senju relative. I think that certain powers of the Rinnegan can only be used by someone who possesses the body (Youngest Son's/Senju DNA).
But anyway, I think the reason Madara needed an Uzumaki is not because they have powerful chakra but because the "creation of all things" type of techniques, such as the moon thing and bringing back the dead, can only be used by a Rinnegan user with Senju blood. I think A Uchiha who's unlocked the Rinnegan can only use the path techniques and whatever other techniques we don't know about+their EMS stuff. Because if it were simply about having a lot of chakra, to be honest Madara could've gotten Tobi to revive him easily, as Tobi obviously has enough chakra for Rinnegan.
To me that makes perfect since if bringing people back to life requires Rinnegan+strong Senju blood. I think Tobi was originally going to use Harishima's cells to enhance Nagato's powers to Sage status and use his Rinnegan to fully revive Madara when the time was right. Since Tobi wasn't of Senju blood, he couldn't use the same types of Rinnegan powers as Nagato had. I think having the blood is more important, and just having Harishima's cells will only get you so far. This also in a way explains why Nagato couldn't use Sharingan abilities, but could use Uchiha+Rinnegan abilities. I think because Nagato wasn't of Uchiha bloodline, he couldn't tap into those Sharingan abilities as easily. So it's kind of like he had to use the powers "as is", which is why he could only use the Rinnegan abilities. Like how Itachi said the Rinnegan is a completly new technique, Nagato could only use the technique that was implanted in him at the time. He can't use the separtate EMS moves like Susano or anything. So he got the Uchiha+Rinnegan moves (6 paths) plus since he's Uzumaki he got the Senju+Rinnegan moves too(bringing back the dead, moon thing)
So in essence, I think the Rinnegan is something only a Uchiha can unlock, but certain abilities are off limits to them. And the goal was to eventually revive Madara, and that's why he wanted an Uzumaki, because you need enough of their DNA to use the Rinnegan's ability to bring back the dead. What do you think about that?
At least we have progressed, now that you get what im trying to say about the natural evolution of the rennigan and madara giving nagato the rennigan. You might be onto something :shrug:, because what we can confirm is that madara did give nagato the rennigan, but also wanted to be revived by him, Nobody really knows why he chose nagato and what you've said could be right, although i believe its because of the nagato's (uzumaki) powerful chakra that is needed for the rennigan to work properly. It would in essence feel right at home embedded in another who has powerful chakra
If Senju DNA isn't needed to awaken the Rinnegan, then Madara only became a Rikudou following his death and as a result of Kabuto's experiments. Basically, leaving Nagato as the Second Rikudou - or Mr. Nobody/Tobi, and not "thee" actual Uchiha Madara.
Point 1:
Vol. 54, Page 108
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Tobi isn't "thee" Uchiha Madara, so that's a lie - let's get that out of the way. So either, he (Tobi) fought Hashirama and gained his power and become the Second Six Paths or he is speaking for Uchiha Madara.
The interesting thing to note here, is that after Kabuto revealed the Six Coffin's contents to Tobi, Tobi still went on to tell Kabuto that he grew a clone of Hashirama from the DNA he stole during their battle.
Six Coffin:
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I fought Hashirama:
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Yeah, like, WTF!?!
Regardless, I'm walking away from this chapter believing he is speaking for Uchiha Madara and not himself (check my second point) - and I think most would agree.
Point 2:
Information that suggest Madara did in-fact, assimilate Hashirama's cells sometime prior to his death - occurring before he awakened the Rinnegan - lies with the following pages:
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Consider the following points very carefully: Secrets of the Body
Madara asked Kabuto if he did something to his body immediately after claiming to have awoken the Rinnegan before his death.
Wonders how he figured out [SIZE=+2]HIS[/SIZE] body's secrets - secrets he even implied that he himself learned from the Stone Monument of Uchiha.
Kabuto and Orochimaru created a hypothesis based from years of data collection - Edo Madara's performance confirmed their theory.
So ask yourself: What secret is there to Madara's body? A secret Orochimaru and Kabuto theorized which lead to their experiments to improve Edo Madara?
AND REMEMBER: Kabuto and Orochimaru weren't totally sure if their hypothesis was correct - obviously.
Shortly after Madara dropped the two meteorites on the alliance, an interesting conversation took place:
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Kabuto altered Edo Madara's body in some manner, but what did he do:
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Do you really believe it's likely that something else was added in Kabuto's effort to validate his hypothesis?
:giogio
Look! Even if you don't believe Hashirama's cells were used specifically; although, both Kabuto/Orochimaru and Madara/Tobi obtained them - which of course suggest, if Hashirama's cells aren't related to Madara's bodily secret, then Madara isn't the Second Six Paths - at least realize that something must be done to a Sharingan user's body, which allows a Sharingan to reach the Rinnegan.
Point 3:
Below is what I call the, "Come On Son" point. Less serious, not really proof, but come on - son.
:giogio
Opposers tend to argue that their isn't necessarily a connection between the [Rikudou] Six Paths' moniker and the Rinnegan - of course that's technically true, but come on. Every Six Paths (The Sage, Madara and Nagato) all wielded the Rinnegan but not every Senju+Uchiha user (Danzou) is a Six Paths.
Let's also ignore the Rinnegan's ability to control the Six Paths, but whatever.
TL;DR Version:
Even if Hashirama's cells aren't what you believe allowed Madara's Sharingan to reach the Rinnegan, at the very least, understand and accept the fact that something needed to happen to Madara's body specifically before that transformation could take place.
It's all about senju DNA, has very high life energy. Younger Brother has life force of sage (Body). Older Son has eyes. Yes Rinnegan is Final form of sharingan but if you have not such chakra you can not able to use it well, completely. I'm trying to say even Nagato who is Uzumaki with Huge Chakra reserve+life force can not able to use it completely. ( He is not using completely because of when he uses Gedo-Mazo or Huge Shinra Tensei he consumes his life force, even Konan worried about that when he uses such a great power, when nagato used his power like that his life force is going to decreasing and die not about Chakra level its about life force. When he died his red hairs turns into white due to his decreasing life force.) I can not say How Rinnegan evolved in which situation maybe Blaze's theory is true or false but i think he's got some points. But he's true about for obtain rinnegan. You dont need Senju DNA for it. You need Senju DNA for using Completely and more powerful like Sage.
What the hell are you talking about? They all say "A technique that requires the powers of the uchiha and the senju (or the senju and the uchiha)" None of them say only a sharingan is needed. It's a sharingan technique. Read ALL of the panels please. If you have manga pages from 5 sites saying that it is a technique possible by someone who possesses both the uchiha and the UCHIHA dna i would love to see them.
How do you know those different sites just didn't upload the same translated source. At the same time your points fall under the "why not use any senju dna" arguement which is just as much speculation as rennigan evolution. Whats relavent is that we dont now where your translations refernces come from.U_U
I think its less about the DNA and more about the chakra. The thing about the chakra is its life properties and it mass. I think for the rinnegan to work it has to use the yang chakra that comes from Senju and Hashirama's was strong in life force due to his mokuton.
wow i just read the whole thread def rep + for this one. And you can blame kishi cause as tobi implied you do need senju plus uchiha dna to do izangi, but as we all seen itachi use izanagi and izanami and he does not have senju dna.
wow i just read the whole thread def rep + for this one. And you can blame kishi cause as tobi implied you do need senju plus uchiha dna to do izangi, but as we all seen itachi use izanagi and izanami and he does not have senju dna.
the oly prblem in this threat is how can you explain madara willl now i kid ho dont now nothing of chakra, got i power ful chakra, another thing jiraiya never new the power of the rinnegan,this make my belive that someone train nagato after jiraiya lef hin...
Nagato passs year to active and use rinnegan jutsu,and can control alll natural element..be training
And way madara o tobi lef nagato and not get hin for then,becuase nagato rinnegan are his eye madara traing nagato we rinnegan that is way he say so nagato manes to grow..
Senju and uchiha make ying yang what make and conplete the full body od the sage and we rinnegan you are conplete, that is way this edo madara are so strong he is complete and in the same lv of the sage...
Well i dont got problemt is sasuke get rinnegan,becuase i now were. Kishi is geting sasuke and naruto will bake the cursu that the on of the sage create sasuke will be good againd..
The oly problem i got is how sasuke will now how to use rinnegan wen he dont now nothing about the eye...
I was thinking of making a thread to address this issue too but you beat me to it. Gotta admit though, your use of evidence and the structure of your argument would have been better than mine so well done +rep
This is one of THEE threads that ive been keeping under my sleeve for a while and for various reasons didnt want to create it. What i will say though is, if you do not read the whole thread i guarantee you'd still be dumbfounded about the whole rennigan issue. Anyway i will be explaining;
Hashirama's abilities
What the EMS is and its purpose
The final stage of the sharigan
Similarities between the younger and older son, Hashirama and Madara and Naruto and Sasuke and more importantly why sasuke will get The rennigan
The first question is what is Hashirama's abilities. I will not go through every technique yamato or anybody else has shown us because although his ability is very important to understand, the purpose isnt to show off his abilities.
Ability to suppress jinchrucki;
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Ability to use 3 Elements;
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Ability to control the environment;
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Medic ninjutsu rivals Tsunade;
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Hashirama's life force. His genes not only grows zetsu but makes them stronger;
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Life force not only increases duration of izanagi, it also decreases the time duration of KA (Kotoamatsukami);
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Had a number of Tailed beasts under his control;
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He reeks of OP, doesnt he? xd. That isnt what this thread is about though. Now that we accustomed to Hashirama's abilities, the question is if you are a power hungry ninja that have fought him several times, wouldnt you want such abilities?, i know i do, but forget about me. Tobi talking as Madara, revealed that he fought to gain access to his many abilities. Now Tobi had no reason to lie and he didnt, because the real madara revealed exactly what Tobi said and yes Madara did fight to gain access to Hashirama's abilities;
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The manga has made it painfully clear how OP hashirama. The manga has made it painfully clear that madara is a power hungry bastard, but also fought to gain access to hashirama's many abilities. Even when he was brought back to life, he sounds like a character who's rivalry with Hashirama turned into a one sided crush wit him constantly talking about hashirama, but also so far he has depended on the abilities he stole. Clearly he very much likes hashirama's abilities, even saying he was the only one that could see through hashirama's mokouton clone. Dan said the only person who could defeat madara was hashirama. Hashirama's abilities was called a fairly tail. He was said to be stronger than madara. The manga has made it very clear that, at that time only Hashirama could stand up to madara;
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Im not sure about you but if senju dna is what is needed to activate the rennigan, i wouldnt go after the top dog of the senju. Id go after any other senju, defeat them and take their dna, after all its been clear that only hashirama could defeat him. Thats what im trying to say, senju dna isnt needed or else madara wouldve beaten any other senju and taken their dna. He wanted hashirama's abilities and thats why he fought to gain access to these abilities which the manga has made painfully clear. U_U
Next is what is the EMS and its purpose, well apart from stopping the blindness process, there are improvements that ive noticed from the ems. Basically we all know that its a combination of 2 ms's and when you look at both madara and sasuke's eyes you cann see izuna's and itachi's ms design in their eyes respectively.
Itachi;
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Sasuke's;
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EMS Sasuke;
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Izuna's;
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Madara's;
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EMS Madara;
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Being a combination of 2 ms's it increases the power of the users doujutsu techniques. For example ms sasuke's v1 susano was penetrated by A, yet A didnt even leave a mark on madara's v1 susano.
Sasuke's v1;
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Madara's v1;
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Next alot of people keep saying kishi has allowed sasuke to gain a huge chakra reserve or the ems gives the user a chakra boost and that is false. From what ive seen the ems allows the user to use its techniques with minimum chakra drainage. You can go as far as saying an ems user using its technique's drains little to no chakra no different to an uchiha using the sharigan in battle which again drains very little chakra. Sasuke could hardly maintain a v1 susano and just before he went blind activated a final susano. Yet with the ems he was able to activate its final form with ease. Similarly madara has been able to activate a further advanced susano with ease.
Madara;
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Sasuke;
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But it doesnt end there. The ems is a stepping stone to greater things. You can say the EMS = KM (naruto) and ill explain that later on. Anyway another misconception about the EMS, is that it stops the user's eye from bleeding. Personally im not sure where people get these misconceptions from but the manga has made it very clear that it doesnt;
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The greatest misconception of all is that an ems user gains a 4th technique. That my friends was a mistranslation from manga reader who are notorious for their mistranslations. This is the real translation;
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As Itachi said, "The transplant gave birth to a completely new doujutsu". He didnt say the translate allowed the user to activate a 4th technique. That was a mistranslation. Ill come back to that page again and fully explain.
Anyway i did say that the EMS was a footstep to greater things and that the EMS = KM (Naruto). KM, naruto was a footstep to greater things and that was BM naruto;
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Now that we know that KM was a stepping stone to BM naruto and KM naruto was incomplete. The question is What is the stepping stone, the next stage of the EMS. The answer THE RENNIGAN
How do i know this?. How do you activate THE RENNIGAN, there you go;
Yes the EMS is a stepping stone to the rennigan and ill explain. This image speaks volumes alone. Ill cut it apart and further explain;
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In the first image the one above, Itachi was blantatly talking about the EMS when he said and i quote; "A permanent Mangekyou Sharingan!. By changing hosts the younger brothers eye found an inextinguishable light!". The Ems is what he is blatantly talking about.;
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Now im certain by now youve noticed that above the 4 sharigans there is something that looks very similar to the rennigan and ive clearly highlighted it in red. That my friends in the rennigan, notice how its above all 4 sharigans. Notice how itachi talks about the ems then above it we have something that looks like the rennigan. What i will say is that the 4 sharigans symbolises the EMS because 2 sharigans = 1 MS. 2MS = EMS, therefore 4 sharigans = EMS.
In the next image please, focus closely on Itachi's words. In the top image he was clearly talking about the EMS. He then went on to say in the next image and i quote " But that was only half the story. The transplant also gave birth to a completely new dojutsu;
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I know although itachi didnt say anything about the rennigan, its blatently obvious that this what he was hinting although he didnt say that. Now alot of people will say how does itachi know this, only madara activated the rennigan. But you see, forget the fact that itachi is extremely knowledgeable and focus on the uchiha tablet, that he read and told sasuke to read;
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Its this same tablet that contained the secret of madara's body;
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Now it seems like madara wrote the secrets of his body/rennigan on the uchiha monument stone after obtaining the rennigan, therefore although he can fully read the tablet because he has the rennigan, he would pass on some of the information of the rennigan that his descendants with the shairgan couldnt read.
I know that it was said that the higher your advance from the sharigan, ms, ems, rennigan the more you can read the tablet. Madara with the ems, read majority of the tablet, but obviously couldnt read it all because he didnt have the rennigan. This is the hypothesis that i believe he formed. The first one is how the sharigan overall works. We all know that in order for an uchiha to gain the sharigan, they must have a near death experience. We then found out that in order to get the ms somebody close to you must die. We then found that in order to get the ems you must take your siblings who has the ms and with that you have effectively killed them because they now have no eyes. In all the stages of the sharigan death is somehow related to achieving greater power, activating a higher doujutsu and this is why i believe madara fought hashirama. I believe apart from the fact that he also wanted his abilities, hashirama was the only person at that time who could awaken madara's rennigan. Only he could challenge madara and allow him to have a near death experience;
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Madara further clarifies that yes after having a near death experience, he activated the rennigan ;
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He said he awakened it shortly before his death, but the time duration between him activating it and dying isnt as short as he says. In that 'short' time he wrote the secrets of his body on the uchiha tablet and gave nagato the rennigan, which has been clarified by madara himself that, yes he did give nagato the rennigan to revive him later on.
The next question is how am i certain that the rennigan is the final stage of the sharigan. Not that difficulty really, the manga has not only bad it blatantly obvious, it has basically said it here "What awates you when you progress beyond the sharingan, is THE RENNIGAN;
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Never ever in the manga has it said that senju dna was needed and never ever did madara or kabuto say this. The manga has however not only made it undoubtedly clear, its even said it there and then. The rennigan is the natural evolution of the sharigan. The final stage of the sharingan
So how is sasuke going to get the rennigan. Well ive told explained to you that EMS= KM (Naruto) and that both EMS and KM are incomplete. Both are a stepping stone to greater things. Kishi has said that both naruto and sasuke grow as a pair. Lets be honest here, bm naruto would annihilate sasuke xd. This is how sasuke will get the rennigan, this is the link between naruto and sasuke and hashirama and madara;
Ems sasuke right now is the 2nd strongest ninja's alive right now (excluding madara (kabuto)). The only ninja excluding kabuto, that is above him is naruto. Excluding kabuto, the only ninja alive that could stand up to sasuke is naruto (I hope you guys are noticing the similarities between naruto and sasuke and hahsirama and madara - history is repeating itself).
Now ill show you the outstanding similarities between the 3 generations (older son and younger son, hahsirama and madara and naruto and sasuke. The older son was said to have gained the sage's 'eyes' and powerful chakra. Whilst the younger son was said to have gained the sage's body and life force;
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In you look carefully, which two looks complete?. Its very clear that the younger son was more complete than the older son. Although the older son got the sages 'eyes' we can all see that it looks like a weaker rennigan, whilst the younger brother seem to have gotten everything that was given to him, the older brother didnt.
Thats the same with hashirama and madara. Hashirama represents the younger brother (descendent obviously). Hashirama was complete, whilst madara (descendent) wasnt, he still had the EMS which you could say represents the older brothers eyes. Also notice hashirama's life force, that i uploaded a while ago. Able to increase the duration of izanagi, grow and make zetsu stronger and decrease the time duration of KA.
History has again repeated itself. Naruto is now the younger brother (descendent obviously, albeit an uzumaki) whilst sasuke is the older son (descendent). Sasuke like the older son and madara, are incomplete. They might have have the sage's eyes, but they do not have the rennigan (just yet anyway). Naruto, like the younger son and hashirama are more complete, but also naruto has followed this step and showed us the life force of the younger son, no different to hashirama's life force;
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So whilst the older son and his generation have always been incomplete, the younger son have, but this is where it gets interesting. I believe after years of fighting, after a final battle, the older son experienced a near death moment which allowed him to activate the rennigan and become complete, just like the younger son.
No different to how after years of fighting, after a final battle madara after experiencing a near death moment activated the rennigan.
History will no doubt repeat itself, this time in naruto and sasuke. After a final battle, sasuke the older brother (funny enough sasuke is also older than naruto by a couple of weeks), will awaken the final stage of the sharigan after facing a near death experience. This has not only been set in stone, the fight in part 1 was for telling of things to come. Its naruto, that funny enough caused sasuke to activate the final stage of the sharigan which was his 3rd and final tomoe, at the same location did hashirama cause madara to awaken the final, final stage of the sharigan which is the rennigan;
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Naruto will cause sasuke again to awaken the final stage of the sharigan. This time not a the 3 tomoe sharigan, but the final stage of the sharigan. THE RENNIGAN
That ^^^^, my friends is the secret behind everything and im out :izuna:
Edit: I thought it was clear that madara gave nagato the rennigan, but since people arent sure, ive added this to the OP.
Nagato's rennigan was transplanted;
Its been brought to my attention that all this time ive been spelling Rinnegan wrong :sy:.
Anyway alot of people are asking about nagato. How he isnt either uchiha or senju. I thought it was clear therefore i didnt explain his scenario, but since it isnt ill explain it.
First of all nagato didnt activate the rennigan, it was given to him by madara. How do i know this. Firstly Tobi speaking as madara said it here;
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He speaking as madara prior to his fight with konan said that nagato was supposed to use rin tensei for him;
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So basically tobi talking as madara said that he gave nagato the rennigan, but also nagato was supposed to use rin tensei for him.
Now madara has clarified what tobi says. When madara first came out,the first person's name he said was nagato. He then said that it would appear that nagato had grown. This speak volumes. Madara gave nagato the rennigan, so that nagato would revive him later on, and thats exactly what tobi has said;
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Secondly how do i know that nagato's rennigan is transplanted. Well firstly because nagato didnt activate the rennigan. When nagato was a child, his hair had always covered his eyes. We never got to see his eyes, until when he beat that rock chunnin, during his training with jiraiya, did we see that he had the rennigan. He always had the rennigan, but didnt show it until the rock chunnin scenario.
Also the rule with implanted dojutsu is still consistent if the member isnt an uchiha. For example, have you ever seen nagato turn off the rennigan?. Have you ever seen nagato do this;
Sharingan;
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Ems;
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Rennigan;
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The fact that nagato cannot revert back and fort from the rennigan should tell you that it was transplanted. It a doujutsu has been transplanted and at the moment its transplanted it had the rennigan activated, thats the eye that would be transplanted and remain. No different to how the sharigan was at the time of transplant was activated therefore, thats what the receiver of the eye gets. This is constant with kakashi. At the time of of his transplant obito's eye was the sharigan therefore thats what remained consistent and kakashi cannot deactivate the sharigan no different to how nagato cannot deactivate the rennigan.
The next issue is why did madara give nagato the rennigan and i believe the kakashi and danzo scenario says it all. We know that if a non uchiha gains their eyes, because they do not have the body if they allow the sharigan to remain viisble it completely drains their chakra and thats why both kakashi and danzo have their sharigan eyes covered, to reduce the chakra drained.
Nagato on the underhand doesnt seem to have this problem because he is an uzumaki. Nagato has the powerful chakra that you could say rivals an uchiha for his rennigan eye to stay constant and not drain his chakra like kakashi and danzo who cover their sharigan. Basically here. Kushina's powerful chakra;
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Nagato's powerful chakra;
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Thats what im saying. Madara gave the rennigan to someone with powerful chakra, because that is what is needed for such a doujutsu like the rennigan. If kakashi had the rennigan, id guarantee he'd run out of chakra in a minute xd.
Also note that madara has also been said to have very powerful chakra, even for uchiha standards;
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This was first said by kurama, who also compared sasuke's chakra to madara's;
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So basically madara gave nagato the rennigan because nagato like himself (madara), had powerful chakra, chakra powerful enough to withstand the rennigan
That's enough reading for the year xd.
I agree with everything you have stated but one.
I don't believe that sasuke and Naruto well fight each other, however I do believe that Naruto well be the cause of sasuke getting the rennigan. I think sasuke well turn to the good side and help Naruto fight tobi, but during the battle sasuke is about to be killed and Naruto saves him, however Naruto gets hit and is somewhat died. That is when sasuke well gain the rennigan, by not only having a near death experiance but also losing his best friend/family............... Once he gets the rennigan he revives Naruto and fight's tobi hand in hand with him........ Or he either kills tobi then kills himself by reviving everyone in the battle field. That is my opinion..... You got to admit it would be cool
That's enough reading for the year xd.
I agree with everything you have stated but one.
I don't believe that sasuke and Naruto well fight each other, however I do believe that Naruto well be the cause of sasuke getting the rennigan. I think sasuke well turn to the good side and help Naruto fight tobi, but during the battle sasuke is about to be killed and Naruto saves him, however Naruto gets hit and is somewhat died. That is when sasuke well gain the rennigan, by not only having a near death experiance but also losing his best friend/family............... Once he gets the rennigan he revives Naruto and fight's tobi hand in hand with him........ Or he either kills tobi then kills himself by reviving everyone in the battle field. That is my opinion..... You got to admit it would be cool
Broky you are not wrong this is were kishi is goin we the story like i said naruto and sasuke will brake the curse of hate that the sasge create,and i seee that to naruto will die saving sasuke..like went sasuke vs haku ....that went sasuke will said way you do this and naruto will said becuase you are my brother my bf my family,that went sasuke will gwt in shok and tatatatattnnn
This is one of THEE threads that ive been keeping under my sleeve for a while and for various reasons didnt want to create it. What i will say though is, if you do not read the whole thread i guarantee you'd still be dumbfounded about the whole rennigan issue. Anyway i will be explaining;
Hashirama's abilities
What the EMS is and its purpose
The final stage of the sharigan
Similarities between the younger and older son, Hashirama and Madara and Naruto and Sasuke and more importantly why sasuke will get The rennigan
The first question is what is Hashirama's abilities. I will not go through every technique yamato or anybody else has shown us because although his ability is very important to understand, the purpose isnt to show off his abilities.
Ability to suppress jinchrucki;
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Ability to use 3 Elements;
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Ability to control the environment;
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Medic ninjutsu rivals Tsunade;
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Hashirama's life force. His genes not only grows zetsu but makes them stronger;
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Life force not only increases duration of izanagi, it also decreases the time duration of KA (Kotoamatsukami);
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Had a number of Tailed beasts under his control;
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He reeks of OP, doesnt he? xd. That isnt what this thread is about though. Now that we accustomed to Hashirama's abilities, the question is if you are a power hungry ninja that have fought him several times, wouldnt you want such abilities?, i know i do, but forget about me. Tobi talking as Madara, revealed that he fought to gain access to his many abilities. Now Tobi had no reason to lie and he didnt, because the real madara revealed exactly what Tobi said and yes Madara did fight to gain access to Hashirama's abilities;
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The manga has made it painfully clear how OP hashirama. The manga has made it painfully clear that madara is a power hungry bastard, but also fought to gain access to hashirama's many abilities. Even when he was brought back to life, he sounds like a character who's rivalry with Hashirama turned into a one sided crush wit him constantly talking about hashirama, but also so far he has depended on the abilities he stole. Clearly he very much likes hashirama's abilities, even saying he was the only one that could see through hashirama's mokouton clone. Dan said the only person who could defeat madara was hashirama. Hashirama's abilities was called a fairly tail. He was said to be stronger than madara. The manga has made it very clear that, at that time only Hashirama could stand up to madara;
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Im not sure about you but if senju dna is what is needed to activate the rennigan, i wouldnt go after the top dog of the senju. Id go after any other senju, defeat them and take their dna, after all its been clear that only hashirama could defeat him. Thats what im trying to say, senju dna isnt needed or else madara wouldve beaten any other senju and taken their dna. He wanted hashirama's abilities and thats why he fought to gain access to these abilities which the manga has made painfully clear. U_U
Next is what is the EMS and its purpose, well apart from stopping the blindness process, there are improvements that ive noticed from the ems. Basically we all know that its a combination of 2 ms's and when you look at both madara and sasuke's eyes you cann see izuna's and itachi's ms design in their eyes respectively.
Itachi;
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Sasuke's;
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EMS Sasuke;
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Izuna's;
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Madara's;
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EMS Madara;
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Being a combination of 2 ms's it increases the power of the users doujutsu techniques. For example ms sasuke's v1 susano was penetrated by A, yet A didnt even leave a mark on madara's v1 susano.
Sasuke's v1;
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Madara's v1;
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Next alot of people keep saying kishi has allowed sasuke to gain a huge chakra reserve or the ems gives the user a chakra boost and that is false. From what ive seen the ems allows the user to use its techniques with minimum chakra drainage. You can go as far as saying an ems user using its technique's drains little to no chakra no different to an uchiha using the sharigan in battle which again drains very little chakra. Sasuke could hardly maintain a v1 susano and just before he went blind activated a final susano. Yet with the ems he was able to activate its final form with ease. Similarly madara has been able to activate a further advanced susano with ease.
Madara;
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Sasuke;
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But it doesnt end there. The ems is a stepping stone to greater things. You can say the EMS = KM (naruto) and ill explain that later on. Anyway another misconception about the EMS, is that it stops the user's eye from bleeding. Personally im not sure where people get these misconceptions from but the manga has made it very clear that it doesnt;
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The greatest misconception of all is that an ems user gains a 4th technique. That my friends was a mistranslation from manga reader who are notorious for their mistranslations. This is the real translation;
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As Itachi said, "The transplant gave birth to a completely new doujutsu". He didnt say the translate allowed the user to activate a 4th technique. That was a mistranslation. Ill come back to that page again and fully explain.
Anyway i did say that the EMS was a footstep to greater things and that the EMS = KM (Naruto). KM, naruto was a footstep to greater things and that was BM naruto;
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Now that we know that KM was a stepping stone to BM naruto and KM naruto was incomplete. The question is What is the stepping stone, the next stage of the EMS. The answer THE RENNIGAN
How do i know this?. How do you activate THE RENNIGAN, there you go;
Yes the EMS is a stepping stone to the rennigan and ill explain. This image speaks volumes alone. Ill cut it apart and further explain;
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In the first image the one above, Itachi was blantatly talking about the EMS when he said and i quote; "A permanent Mangekyou Sharingan!. By changing hosts the younger brothers eye found an inextinguishable light!". The Ems is what he is blatantly talking about.;
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Now im certain by now youve noticed that above the 4 sharigans there is something that looks very similar to the rennigan and ive clearly highlighted it in red. That my friends in the rennigan, notice how its above all 4 sharigans. Notice how itachi talks about the ems then above it we have something that looks like the rennigan. What i will say is that the 4 sharigans symbolises the EMS because 2 sharigans = 1 MS. 2MS = EMS, therefore 4 sharigans = EMS.
In the next image please, focus closely on Itachi's words. In the top image he was clearly talking about the EMS. He then went on to say in the next image and i quote " But that was only half the story. The transplant also gave birth to a completely new dojutsu;
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I know although itachi didnt say anything about the rennigan, its blatently obvious that this what he was hinting although he didnt say that. Now alot of people will say how does itachi know this, only madara activated the rennigan. But you see, forget the fact that itachi is extremely knowledgeable and focus on the uchiha tablet, that he read and told sasuke to read;
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Its this same tablet that contained the secret of madara's body;
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Now it seems like madara wrote the secrets of his body/rennigan on the uchiha monument stone after obtaining the rennigan, therefore although he can fully read the tablet because he has the rennigan, he would pass on some of the information of the rennigan that his descendants with the shairgan couldnt read.
I know that it was said that the higher your advance from the sharigan, ms, ems, rennigan the more you can read the tablet. Madara with the ems, read majority of the tablet, but obviously couldnt read it all because he didnt have the rennigan. This is the hypothesis that i believe he formed. The first one is how the sharigan overall works. We all know that in order for an uchiha to gain the sharigan, they must have a near death experience. We then found out that in order to get the ms somebody close to you must die. We then found that in order to get the ems you must take your siblings who has the ms and with that you have effectively killed them because they now have no eyes. In all the stages of the sharigan death is somehow related to achieving greater power, activating a higher doujutsu and this is why i believe madara fought hashirama. I believe apart from the fact that he also wanted his abilities, hashirama was the only person at that time who could awaken madara's rennigan. Only he could challenge madara and allow him to have a near death experience;
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Madara further clarifies that yes after having a near death experience, he activated the rennigan ;
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He said he awakened it shortly before his death, but the time duration between him activating it and dying isnt as short as he says. In that 'short' time he wrote the secrets of his body on the uchiha tablet and gave nagato the rennigan, which has been clarified by madara himself that, yes he did give nagato the rennigan to revive him later on.
The next question is how am i certain that the rennigan is the final stage of the sharigan. Not that difficulty really, the manga has not only bad it blatantly obvious, it has basically said it here "What awates you when you progress beyond the sharingan, is THE RENNIGAN;
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Never ever in the manga has it said that senju dna was needed and never ever did madara or kabuto say this. The manga has however not only made it undoubtedly clear, its even said it there and then. The rennigan is the natural evolution of the sharigan. The final stage of the sharingan
So how is sasuke going to get the rennigan. Well ive told explained to you that EMS= KM (Naruto) and that both EMS and KM are incomplete. Both are a stepping stone to greater things. Kishi has said that both naruto and sasuke grow as a pair. Lets be honest here, bm naruto would annihilate sasuke xd. This is how sasuke will get the rennigan, this is the link between naruto and sasuke and hashirama and madara;
Ems sasuke right now is the 2nd strongest ninja's alive right now (excluding madara (kabuto)). The only ninja excluding kabuto, that is above him is naruto. Excluding kabuto, the only ninja alive that could stand up to sasuke is naruto (I hope you guys are noticing the similarities between naruto and sasuke and hahsirama and madara - history is repeating itself).
Now ill show you the outstanding similarities between the 3 generations (older son and younger son, hahsirama and madara and naruto and sasuke. The older son was said to have gained the sage's 'eyes' and powerful chakra. Whilst the younger son was said to have gained the sage's body and life force;
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In you look carefully, which two looks complete?. Its very clear that the younger son was more complete than the older son. Although the older son got the sages 'eyes' we can all see that it looks like a weaker rennigan, whilst the younger brother seem to have gotten everything that was given to him, the older brother didnt.
Thats the same with hashirama and madara. Hashirama represents the younger brother (descendent obviously). Hashirama was complete, whilst madara (descendent) wasnt, he still had the EMS which you could say represents the older brothers eyes. Also notice hashirama's life force, that i uploaded a while ago. Able to increase the duration of izanagi, grow and make zetsu stronger and decrease the time duration of KA.
History has again repeated itself. Naruto is now the younger brother (descendent obviously, albeit an uzumaki) whilst sasuke is the older son (descendent). Sasuke like the older son and madara, are incomplete. They might have have the sage's eyes, but they do not have the rennigan (just yet anyway). Naruto, like the younger son and hashirama are more complete, but also naruto has followed this step and showed us the life force of the younger son, no different to hashirama's life force;
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So whilst the older son and his generation have always been incomplete, the younger son have, but this is where it gets interesting. I believe after years of fighting, after a final battle, the older son experienced a near death moment which allowed him to activate the rennigan and become complete, just like the younger son.
No different to how after years of fighting, after a final battle madara after experiencing a near death moment activated the rennigan.
History will no doubt repeat itself, this time in naruto and sasuke. After a final battle, sasuke the older brother (funny enough sasuke is also older than naruto by a couple of weeks), will awaken the final stage of the sharigan after facing a near death experience. This has not only been set in stone, the fight in part 1 was for telling of things to come. Its naruto, that funny enough caused sasuke to activate the final stage of the sharigan which was his 3rd and final tomoe, at the same location did hashirama cause madara to awaken the final, final stage of the sharigan which is the rennigan;
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Naruto will cause sasuke again to awaken the final stage of the sharigan. This time not a the 3 tomoe sharigan, but the final stage of the sharigan. THE RENNIGAN
That ^^^^, my friends is the secret behind everything and im out :izuna:
Edit: I thought it was clear that madara gave nagato the rennigan, but since people arent sure, ive added this to the OP.
Nagato's rennigan was transplanted;
Its been brought to my attention that all this time ive been spelling Rinnegan wrong :sy:.
Anyway alot of people are asking about nagato. How he isnt either uchiha or senju. I thought it was clear therefore i didnt explain his scenario, but since it isnt ill explain it.
First of all nagato didnt activate the rennigan, it was given to him by madara. How do i know this. Firstly Tobi speaking as madara said it here;
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He speaking as madara prior to his fight with konan said that nagato was supposed to use rin tensei for him;
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So basically tobi talking as madara said that he gave nagato the rennigan, but also nagato was supposed to use rin tensei for him.
Now madara has clarified what tobi says. When madara first came out,the first person's name he said was nagato. He then said that it would appear that nagato had grown. This speak volumes. Madara gave nagato the rennigan, so that nagato would revive him later on, and thats exactly what tobi has said;
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Secondly how do i know that nagato's rennigan is transplanted. Well firstly because nagato didnt activate the rennigan. When nagato was a child, his hair had always covered his eyes. We never got to see his eyes, until when he beat that rock chunnin, during his training with jiraiya, did we see that he had the rennigan. He always had the rennigan, but didnt show it until the rock chunnin scenario.
Also the rule with implanted dojutsu is still consistent if the member isnt an uchiha. For example, have you ever seen nagato turn off the rennigan?. Have you ever seen nagato do this;
Sharingan;
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Ems;
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Rennigan;
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The fact that nagato cannot revert back and fort from the rennigan should tell you that it was transplanted. It a doujutsu has been transplanted and at the moment its transplanted it had the rennigan activated, thats the eye that would be transplanted and remain. No different to how the sharigan was at the time of transplant was activated therefore, thats what the receiver of the eye gets. This is constant with kakashi. At the time of of his transplant obito's eye was the sharigan therefore thats what remained consistent and kakashi cannot deactivate the sharigan no different to how nagato cannot deactivate the rennigan.
The next issue is why did madara give nagato the rennigan and i believe the kakashi and danzo scenario says it all. We know that if a non uchiha gains their eyes, because they do not have the body if they allow the sharigan to remain viisble it completely drains their chakra and thats why both kakashi and danzo have their sharigan eyes covered, to reduce the chakra drained.
Nagato on the underhand doesnt seem to have this problem because he is an uzumaki. Nagato has the powerful chakra that you could say rivals an uchiha for his rennigan eye to stay constant and not drain his chakra like kakashi and danzo who cover their sharigan. Basically here. Kushina's powerful chakra;
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Nagato's powerful chakra;
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Thats what im saying. Madara gave the rennigan to someone with powerful chakra, because that is what is needed for such a doujutsu like the rennigan. If kakashi had the rennigan, id guarantee he'd run out of chakra in a minute xd.
Also note that madara has also been said to have very powerful chakra, even for uchiha standards;
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This was first said by kurama, who also compared sasuke's chakra to madara's;
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So basically madara gave nagato the rennigan because nagato like himself (madara), had powerful chakra, chakra powerful enough to withstand the rennigan
Ok, we have not received enough information to make a bold statement either way, but you’re right by default.
Nowhere did it state that you need Senju dna to acquire the Rinnegan, thus the opposite side would need to show some actual proof, that you do need it, to become more than a mere theory (strong one indeed, but a theory nonetheless).It has been explained as a natural evolution from the sharingan which I also believe for now.
However, I disagree with you when it comes to the EMS. Madara is primarily using Hashirama’s powers because of the fact that they are like toys to him, new ones. Not because his EMS techs are useless or that they aren’t enough to challenge the kages. He’s simply testing the limits of his arch enemies while also playing a tool in Kishi’s plot. Kishi is preserving it for one of the main characters, Sasuke, who will demonstrate just how powerful the EMS really is, when he somehow defeats Kabuto. This also makes me think that Sasuke will not get the rinnegan, at least not till the very end.
You’re also assuming that BM Naruto will be the final power up for Naruto which is purely speculation. He could combine sage mode and kyuubi mode, which would be the ultimate power up. If that’s the case, EMS Sasuke will reach BM Naruto. Of course, right now, Naruto is superior.
I don't think pains eyes are transplants..... cuz if you notice when his parents died he obtained it when he was a child.. he berserk than fainted... I think tobi ment thoes are his eyes cuz pain promise tobi he would use life resurection jutsu for him.. if you didn't need senju blood for rinngan how can a none uchiha (pain) use the rinngan so efficiantly .... we all know kakashi drains chakara fast when he uses sharigan because he ain't a uchiha ... wouldn't it work the same way if the rinngan is the final evolution of the sharigan? Pain would drain chakara fast even thoe he is a uzamaki
Nobody for certain knows this stage you talk about. The manga hasnt hinted that the older brothers eye degrade in the stags youve listed as his bloodline thins. The manga does on the other hand, hint that after the older brothers eye did it go to the sharigan. The thinning im talking about isnt so much to do with the stages, but the uchiha clan in general. During madara's time, it looked like majority of the clan had the sharigan. But as the blood thinned, so did the older brother's eye. Basically the uchiha of the past, majority of wouldve had the sharingan, in comparison to the current uhiha (the one itachi and tobi slaughtered).
What im trying to say is that both the ems and the 1st sons eye is what is before the rennigan. What im trying to say is that as the blood thinned and got to the sharigan, if an uchiha was to get an eye that is before the rennigan, it wouldnt look like the older sons, it wouldnt be as powerful as the older brothers eye. Also notice that there are always slight difference between the generations. For example, the younger son got the body and stamina, but we dont know if he had wood release, which is what hashirama has. That is what differs hashirama from the younger son. No different to naruto is an uzumaki infact, but also his life force is due to the fox and not his so to speak. There will always be slight differentiaitons to the next geenration. This is further backed by madara awakening the rennigan, with the ems and not something that looked like the older brothers eye. When madara went from ems, he didnt go to the brothers eye, he went straight to the rennigan and if you look at when gaara pulled him out of susano its confirmed. The younger brothers eye's in no different from the ems but a stronger version of the ems.
First of all, thx for the reply. Sooo many posts here, I thought mine would get overlooked. I wanted you to reply b/c I wasnt sure if I understood fully your last post when I responded, and I see I misunderstood slightly. Now I understand what you meant alittle better...
...Look at the part of your post below bolded. From this statement, I assume you mean that by "blood thinning"... the only eyes that the Uchiha Clan ever received after the 1st Son's whirlpool eye is the Sharigan. Not EMS or MS. For some reason the eyes just make you go through those stages when going back to the Rinnegan, ok I understand what you mean by that now.
****************************** This is further backed by madara awakening the rennigan, with the ems and not something that looked like the older brothers eye. When madara went from ems, he didnt go to the brothers eye, he went straight to the rennigan and if you look at when gaara pulled him out of susano its confirmed. *******************************
The only thing I wanted to say is that this (above) can't be proved, which isnt saying much, your ideals are theory lol so no flame here. Just know that the Uchiha eye techniques dont exactly work this way. When going to one form of the Uchiha eye to the next, it doesnt ALWAYS go through every step.
Your Arguement: When Edo Madara goes from EMS to Rinnegan fighting Gaara/Naruto, it doesn't show the 1st Son's eye when it changes stages. So by this comment you believe this is the proof that Madara never evolved the "Whirlpool Rinnegan". I have (2) arguements to this:
1) When you progress to the 3 Tomoe Sharigan, you never show an eye that only has one or two Tomoe in it ever again. This doesnt mean you NEVER evolved an eye with only ONE Tomoe or TWO Tomoe, it just happens that when you reach the 3rd level it never shows these eyes when you activate Sharigan in general. It doesnt mean you've never had those other eyes though.
2) Want another example? Lets not forget, when you progress to EMS you NO LONGER EVER SEE MS. Period. You literally can progress from Sharigan to EMS, but once you've obtained EMS your eye no longer shows signs that you EVER HAD THAT MS EYE WITHOUT EMS. In other words, you can no longer just have MS eyes showing once you progress. Same as above.
So with this being said... how do YOU KNOW he didn't evolve the 1st Son's Eyes before the "perfect" Rinnegan? Do you have Manga proof of this? How do you know he didn't evolve the Whirlpool eye while fighting Hashirama, and then PERFECT it with Hashi's DNA after the battle concluded? I'm not convinced the Uchiha can never evolve the Whirlpool eye again. AND I still believe Senju DNA is needed to get the SO6P Rinnegan.
Note: You said, "Anyway kakashi cannot get the ems, because of how the ems works." This is not exactly true. Not IMPOSSIBLE, just like MS wasnt "impossible" for him to get. Like I said, I have a theory about this, that I am about to Thread soon. Cant wait for your rebuttles lol.
I know I'm probably annoying you but you've really got me thinking about this theory.
