The moment Sasuke and Naruto surpassed their parents overall:

To Whatever · Dec 9, 2015

The Demon Hawk said:
Far superior? Obviously not. If Hebi Sasuke did not have CM, he'd be the same level as Fugaku presumably, maybe slightly stronger. Only his CM safely puts him above Fugaku.

And how do you know Team Kakashi could defeat Fugaku that easily? The reason why Sasuke performed so well against Team Kakashi was because everyone aside from Yamato were fodders. Pre-SM Naruto, fodder. Sakura, fodder. Sai, fodder.

And if Kakashi was involved, Sasuke would definitely require the Curse Mark to compete with Team Kakashi. And that version of Sasuke is above Fugaku.

And Fugaku was also easily Kage level.

Tell what?

Okay, so because Fugaku has no feats, you can label him as "fodder" but I can't call him "quite strong". That's quite the exemplary level of double standards there. How can you say he is fodder when he has no feats displayed?

And my assumption are more solid than yours. Fugaku was easily a Jounin level shinobi, the leader of the strongest clan in Konoha and and the captain of Konoha's military police force. He's undoubtedly very strong.

Vote Sasuke is strong tho.

The Demon Hawk · Dec 9, 2015

Chaosmark101 said:
We agree on Fugaku being highly underestimated, & SM Naruto not surpassing Minato, but you see Minato as >= KCM Naruto any reason?

@bold Not exactly. I see Minato (SM) as being on par with KCM Naruto, and that doesn't define any variation between them. It means that SM Minato >=< KCM Naruto. No one is set to be above the other.

Although I never stated or hinted anywhere that "Minato >= KCM Naruto" (I don't know how you concluded that), but I still believe Minato to be slightly superior in a fight. The reason for that is Minato's intelligence and the deadliness of FTG.

The fact that he has SM is still a plus factor. It's not that great, but it's not worthless either. It'll still give Minato a significant boost in abilities, Minato is only weak at retaining it as per canon. So yeah, it adds to everything.

Minato's defensive power is flawless due to FTG. There is no way for KCM Naruto to be faster than the Raikage (evading a punch from Raikage =/= being faster than him), whom Minato effortlessly avoided at top speed in canon. So that handles the physical part. Naruto's ninjutsu is also way too slow for the Yellow Flash, or if Naruto is marked somehow or has a seal closely placed, then Minato can actually reverse the ninjutsu back at Naruto using the FTG teleportation barrier.

Minato however, has plentiful options to land attacks on KCM Naruto depending upon the opportunity he gets. It depends upon the proximity of Minato's markings with KCM Naruto. A lot of the marked kunais spread around will give Minato the chance to attack Naruto from multiple angles and positions. Since Minato's reflexes are hyped to be on par with the Raikage's, it will be further easier for him since there are still chances to attack Naruto with FTG combined with that level of reflexes. Minato can use ninjutsu as well, seals won't be very effective in a battle though. With SM, those attacks will be further empowered.

So Minato comparatively has a lot more chances and ease at striking KCM Naruto due to FTG, and with powerful attacks due to SM. And if Naruto somehow gets marked, then it's GG.

KidGamer65 · Dec 9, 2015

Beginning of Shippuden Sasuke>Fugaku.
KCM Naruto>Minato.

That is when they surpassed their fathers.

unknownvillain1254 · Dec 9, 2015

animals74 said:
well by feats naruto learned rasengan faster than minato
and also threw in wind release, or creating rasenshuriken out of it, which minato couldnt do
but naruto needs 9T avatar to go up against minato

Minato invented rasengan learn something after someone already invented is easy

unknownvillain1254 · Dec 9, 2015

The Demon Hawk said:
Far superior? Obviously not. If Hebi Sasuke did not have CM, he'd be the same level as Fugaku presumably, maybe slightly stronger. Only his CM safely puts him above Fugaku.

And how do you know Team Kakashi could defeat Fugaku that easily? The reason why Sasuke performed so well against Team Kakashi was because everyone aside from Yamato were fodders. Pre-SM Naruto, fodder. Sakura, fodder. Sai, fodder.

And if Kakashi was involved, Sasuke would definitely require the Curse Mark to compete with Team Kakashi. And that version of Sasuke is above Fugaku.

And Fugaku was also easily Kage level.

Tell what?

Okay, so because Fugaku has no feats, you can label him as "fodder" but I can't call him "quite strong". That's quite the exemplary level of double standards there. How can you say he is fodder when he has no feats displayed?

And my assumption are more solid than yours. Fugaku was easily a Jounin level shinobi, the leader of the strongest clan in Konoha and and the captain of Konoha's military police force. He's undoubtedly very strong.

I don't believe he can beat two tail naruto

Chaosmark101 · Dec 9, 2015

The Demon Hawk said:
@bold Not exactly. I see Minato (SM) as being on par with KCM Naruto, and that doesn't define any variation between them. It means that SM Minato >=< KCM Naruto. No one is set to be above the other.

Although I never stated or hinted anywhere that "Minato >= KCM Naruto" (I don't know how you concluded that), but I still believe Minato to be slightly superior in a fight. The reason for that is Minato's intelligence and the deadliness of FTG.

Well I came to that conclusion after your first post stating Naruto needs BM to surpass minato (I did too on the first page, but as I'm no Minato expert as some people on this base are I wanted to be modest). So it should be pretty obvious since on par does not mean succeed. & Not quite sure how Intelligence & FTG are helping here when I believe Naruto's regular speed is above is, & his shunshin is above his & Ay IV's max speed as per cannon.

The fact that he has SM is still a plus factor. It's not that great, but it's not worthless either. It'll still give Minato a significant boost in abilities, Minato is only weak at retaining it as per canon. So yeah, it adds to everything.

How is Minato going to gather Natural Energy to even enter SM? He only got the opportunity against Madara, because Obito & him were talking for most of chapter 665 :lol. If that was something he could do consistently maybe he would have done it vs A & B or 13 year old Obito?

Minato's defensive power is flawless due to FTG. There is no way for KCM Naruto to be faster than the Raikage (evading a punch from Raikage =/= being faster than him), whom Minato effortlessly avoided at top speed in canon. So that handles the physical part. Naruto's ninjutsu is also way too slow for the Yellow Flash, or if Naruto is marked somehow or has a seal closely placed, then Minato can actually reverse the ninjutsu back at Naruto using the FTG teleportation barrier.

Except when Ay literally says he's going his Maximum speed & Naruto evades with Pure speed it means KCM Naruto is faster than Ay. Minato barely reacted to Ay when he was younger so KCM Naruto would most likely tag him. Especially since FTG isn't really helping him other than to run away. Especially since after he teleports, his options are.
1. Teleport to marked location
2. Throw a kunai & teleport there
3. Run/Shunshin which leads him punished by Naruto
& the S/T barrier means little when KCM Naruto can use