Did I think that Nagato was Kaguya in Konan’s Paper Tree… uh no.
That said, it’s not the worst observation and I’ve had plenty of worse ideas myself.
The scene with Nagato in the paper tree could be read as foreshadowing for the Shinju / Tree of Life. The silhouette of Nagato does look a lot like Kaguya in certain scenes. Nagato is propped up in a chair that makes him look like he’s in the cruciform pose that Kaguya adopts when she’s behaving like a tyrant:
Nagato Shadow
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Kaguya sacrificing followers with TSB
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Kaguya unleashing Tenpenchii
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Kaguya the Tyrant
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I think that this pose is related to the Snake Genjutsu of Orochimaru and Kabuto which captured Sasuke and Itachi:
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… as well as the the RDS:
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Nagato’s sanctuary meanwhile is more a less a prototype for the Shinju
Origami Tree House
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Shinju
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I expect we have more to learn about Kaguya, the cruciform pose and the Shinju which I’ll go into more detail on next time.
BTW if you read all the posts mistaking Nagato for Kaguya not all of them are serious. Even the silliest ideas can sometimes have a kernel of truth to them though.
The Pain arc was also the arc when we were first introduced to the Rinnegan (Which can summon Gedo Mazou) and Chibaku Tensei (Which can seal Juubi/Kaguya). No idea whether the similarities were intended or not.
Okay, … I promised something good and I like to deliver. Unfortunately the clock was running down so drastic measures were needed. Don’t get me started on the irony of the pact I needed to make in order to come up with the goods, which can only really be summed up by Tenacious D:
I give you the Best Theory In The World (…Tribute) *Warning, here be spoilers*
Morning Star
If you’ve taken away one thing from this thread I hope that it is that Kishi likes to borrow from all sorts of sources when writing Naruto. Often these are religious or mythological in nature and they can be overt or extremely subtle. For the central figure of the Demon and his counterpart the Sage, Kishi draws on many world religions. What has surprised me is that the religions that Kishi draws on most almost all intersect at two points in the Sky. I know this sounds cryptic but let me explain…
First another warning - To understand this theory you will need a grounding in history, science, the occult, cosmology, cosmogony, geomancy, astronomy and astrology. I will try and keep it simple but these are not the easiest things to grasp. Also the fundamental idea is based on some spoilers read from Naruto: The Last. I have not seen this movie but the ideas contained here are built on small seemingly insignificant details that I think explain how Kishi is constructing Phase 3 of his tale.
Shrouded History
There is one symbol in The Last that I think can connect everything in Naruto. It is not especially striking since it looks similar to almost every other symbol in Naruto. It is essentially a composite symbol that mostly just represents Yin and Yang. This symbol does not appear in the Manga but when connected to other symbols that do appear in the Manga it can be used to explain the entirety of Kishimoto’s design, its religious grounding and the future of its development. The title of this theory kind of gives away what this symbol is but unless you are extremely well read and know far more than I do / did (I’ve been furiously reading Wikipedia to connect the dots – pun intended) then this will all be new to you.
This symbol might explain many mysteries in the Narutoverse but in particular I think that it governs the nature of the battle between good and evil. This symbol represents three heavenly bodies … the Sun, the Moon and a Star. The symbol I’m speaking of is the image that appears on Toneri’s back and is what represents the Ootsutsuki Clan. Toneri is the last of this clan. His crest symbolizes the nature of the relationship between the Ootsutsuki and the Cosmos… that is the Universe as organised into a well ordered whole.
Toneri’s symbol – The Ootsutsuki Mon (crest)
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First things first… I do not believe that the Ootsutsuki are aliens though it is possible that that might end up being the case. Rather, I think that the Ootsutsuki Mon marks the Clan out as guardians of the Heavens.
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In order to appreciate this role within the story it is necessary to trace the origins of their symbol. For this Kishi borrows from the largely forgotten myths and legends of history that have mostly been discarded because they no longer conform with our scientific understanding of the world around us. To explain this I need to start with the basics.
Toneri’s symbol is a real world symbol that has its own chequered past. Today it belongs to several clans in Japan including the Usui Clan…
Usui Mon
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Usui Shrine
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The Usui inherited their crest from the Chiba Clan from whom they trace their heritage…
Chiba Mon
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The Chiba in turn were a Samurai clan descended from the Taira, themselves an even more famous Samurai Clan, who were contemporaries of the Minamoto Clan and descendants of the Emperor Kanmu. The Chiba commanded a swathe of territory that covered what is now called the Chiba Prefecture. It may be purely coincidental but their lands include a town called Naruto that still exists today as well as the Ise Grand Shrine (the Ise Jingū) – one of Japan’s most holy sites of worship. This is the shrine that featured behind Itachi when he cut off Orochimaru’s hand and is purportedly home to the real world imperial relic that Itachi wields, the Yata Mirror…
Naruto, Chiba Prefecture
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Ise Jingū steps
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Itachi on the steps
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Yata no Kagami
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The Chiba Clan symbol is a religious marker that resonates with many of the real world beliefs that have appear in Naruto in various guises.
Dark Arts
As I mentioned earlier, the symbol of the Chiba is composed of three elements… the Sun, the Moon and a Star. These symbols have separate meanings on their own and when joined together.
Star (星)/Sun (日)/Moon (月)
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The Sun symbol is often used as shorthand for Yang and likewise the Moon stands for Yin… indeed “taiyin” can be read as the Moon while “taiyang” means the Sun. Yin Release and Yang Release form the basis of many of the more powerful techniques exhibited in the Narutoverse. These techniques can help trace the heritage of the various clans. Those clans that inherited Yin techniques appear to be descended from Indra while those clans that inherited Yang techniques are probably descended from Asura.
Although it has never really been confirmed in the manga that any clans apart from the Uchiha and Senju are descended from Hagoromo – the physical traits and the techniques of the various clans connect several clans to one or other of the Sage’s sons. We know for instance that Naruto is a descendant of and the host to Asura’s transmigrating soul despite only being distantly related to the Senju. Thus Naruto inherited the Sage’s Yang energy. Sasuke on the other hand is a direct descendant of and the host to Indra who inherited Hagoromo’s Yin energy.
Hagoromo, Asura (Sun) and Indra (Moon)
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Naruto (Sun Seal) and Sasuke (Moon Seal)
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This Yin and Yang inheritance points to the Nara clan (whose Shadow Technique is a form of Inton) being cousins to the Uchiha and to the Akamichi clan being cousins to both the Senju/Uzumaki (whose primary Body Expansion Technique is a form of Yōton).
Yin and Yang Inheritance
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The Nara exercise a form of Inton which is incorporeal and focused on using the mind
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…while the Akimichi use a form of Yōton which is focused on expanding their bodies
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The blood relation is perhaps also evidenced by their common distinguishing features. The Nara are all intelligent and have black hair like the Uchiha. Meanwhile, the red hair of the Akimichi, their Body Expansion and the marks on Chouji’s face all make me think that the Akimichi are fellow descendants of the Sage of Six Paths. Hagoromo, the Akimichi and the Uzumaki all share the same red hair while the Gedo Mazo (Hagoromo’s empty shell) exhibits the trademark Body Expansion as well as spirals on its cheeks (the Spiral also being the Uzumaki Mon). The Gedo Mazo is supposed to have Dojutsu but because it had its Yin chakra ripped from it is simply a body there to be used and abused by any able to control it...
Hagoromo Red Hair
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Uzumaki Red Hair
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Gedo Mazo Spiral Cheeks
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Chouji Spiral Cheeks
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Uzumaki Mon
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When the forces of Yin and Yang / Sun and Moon are combined the power is amplified. This is what allows Hagoromo’s seal to trap the Juubi / Demon Rabbit … twice:
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When the Sun and the Moon symbols are combined in real life they form a new symbol given the imaginative title of the in-yō (In=Yin, Yō=Yang) in Japan:
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The in-yō is considered a sort of talisman. It is said to bring good luck, career advancement, so on and so forth… . The symbol is emblematic of the arts used by court mystics, the so-called Onmyōji (mystics claiming to be able to harness the powers of Yin and Yang). These Onmyōji were at various times employed by the state as civil servants belonging to the Bureau of Onmyō in ancient Japan's ritsuryo system. They were recognised from the 7th up to the 19th century at which time they were outlawed for their superstitious practices. Onmyōdō and In'yōdō (the Way of Yin and Yang) mixed natural science and the for want of a better term Japanese Occult, popular in certain regions. These arts are the inspiration for the techniques deployed by a very select group in Naruto:
In'yōton
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Onmyōton
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This Yin and Yang dust cloud could be the considered the product of weaponised In'yōton:
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Depiction of a famous Onmyōji (Abe no Seimei):
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Onmyōdō, In'yōdō and the various Japanes mystic cults associated with the arts are all distant relations of Chinese mysticism and in particular Wu Xing. Kishi used Wu Xing as the basis for the Nature Transformation techniques. The Wu Xing emphasizes five elements, which are said to cover various aspects of life. Kishi uses the same basic diagram for Nature Transformations (though Kishi employs a different selection of elements that correspond to Japanese mysticism):
Nature Transformations Naruto
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Wu Xing
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All of which brings me to the third element of the Ootsutsuki symbol, the Star…
North Star
The Sun and Moon are perhaps the most important celestial bodies to us here on Earth, they literally govern our day to day lives, but there are other objects in the heavens that have at times been considered as or even more important. This is where the star in the Ootsutsuki symbol comes into play. The Star in the symbol refers to Amenominakanushi.
Amenominakanushi is the source of the Universe according to the Kojiki and is considered the first kami in Shinto. Its name can variously be translated as the All-Father of the Originating Hub (天御中主 ), the Heavenly Ancestral God of the Originating Heart of the Universe(天之御中主神) or the Divine Lord of the Middle Heaven.
While being depicted as just one star, Amenominakanushi can actually be said to refer to two heavenly bodies. Before man knew what stars were everything that shone in the sky was considered a star. Nobody knew that stars were great big burning masses emitting light across the universe until we developed telescopes capable of observing them. Astrology and Astronomy were intimately connected until art and science were separated into distinct fields of study. Astrology is now a discredited art but up until fairly recently in the affairs of man this art was considered a source of great power and wisdom.
The first star associated with Amenominakanushi is the North Star or Polaris. The North Star is significant because it does not appear to move in the night sky. This feature has nothing to do with the North Star but rather it’s relative position to the axis on which the world spins. The North Star sits above the North Pole. This does not sound particularly important but it was vital to navigation before the discovery of Magnetism or the development of the Geostationary and Geosynchronous Satellites (that we use today for most communication and “Sat Nav”). The North Star always points North no matter where you are (on Earth). Knowing this in times gone by could help you determine where you were and which direction you were going in – which when at sea or in foreign lands could mean the difference between life and death.
When attributing godly traits to the stars, the fixed position in the night sky of the North Star was also important aesthetically. When tracing the movement of the stars it appears that all the other stars revolve around the North Star. If you consider that most stars are linked to one god or another and that all of these stars appear to circle around the North Star (as though they served it) then suddenly it makes sense why our forebears would hold the North Star god in such esteem. The North Star god appeared to sit at the throne of the Universe.
A long exposure photo of the North Star (Polaris) and neighbouring stars (taken over the course of 45 min):
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The god that the Chiba Clan worshipped and who is represented by the same symbol as the Ootsutsuki was called Myōken. Myōken is praised by various sects and is represented at times as either male or female. For the Samurai Clans, Myōken was represented as a Samurai warrior (male) often shown with sword raised above his head. Myōken is revered as a protector of the nation, the suppressor of calamity and as a provider of long life and happiness.
A lot of Kishi’s designs appear to have been influenced by the iconography around Myōken. In Mandalas (religious paintings that depict the geometry of the Universe), Myōken is shown at the center with the Sun and Moon in the palms of his hands. The other gods and constellations all emanate out from his presence. These depictions appear to be the inspiration behind several of the designs behind Hagoromo:
Hagoromo NB the symbol over his shoulder
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Hagoromo surrounded by the Narutoverse’s spirit gods
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Hagoromo’s legacy – Sun (Asura) and Moon (Indra)
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Myōken Mandalas (Heavenly Designs) – Myōken in the centre, Sun and Moon in hand, attended to by other deities
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It is also worth considering some of the finer details in the images of Myōken.
You will notice many familiar animal spirits surrounding him. For instance a Fox is positioned in order to protect against the Demon Gate (the Kimon … source of bad luck associated with Onmyōdō and geomancy – the belief that certain directions hold special meaning … NE is considered the source of misfortune).
The Fox, Kurama was bequeathed the task of leading the Bijuu should Hagoromo’s power ever be needed again – in effect he was charged with guarding the demon gate:
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Kurama guarding the Demon Gate, well figuratively speaking (?) – I’ll ignore the fact that he was caged to protect Naruto for the sake of argument though in practice Kurama has only ever done “evil” under the influence of outside forces and has always saved Naruto even when it was against his own interests to do so:
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The Dragon is a depiction of the Big Dipper / the Plough. The Mouth of the Dragon / tip of the plough points to the North Star although the constellation like ever other constellation appears to move around the it. This Dragon is often depicted as being in an unending battle with a Tortoise. (We still don’t know for certain whether Orochimaru can use Dragon Sage Mode … though I suspect he can)
7th-8th Century Turtle entwined with Snake Painting
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Manda vs Turtle Island
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The Crow In Myoken’s Right hand is intended to evoke Amaterasu (the Sun Goddess and the emblem on the Japanese Flag) and is contained in the Sun Disc. The Moon Disc (Left Hand) meanwhile is often portrayed with a Rabbit or Frog inside it. The Rabbit is commonly associated with the moon because of the Jade Rabbit myth (squint your eyes when looking up at the moon and you will see the outline of a Bunny) while Frogs were associated with the Moon because of their uneven skin (bumpy like the Moon’s surface).
Sample Sun and Moon Discs in Myoken’s hands:
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Itachi’s character parallels these beliefs in his association with crows, his use of Amaterasu and the colour of his Susanoo..
Itachi Crows:
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Itachi Amaterasu:
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Itachi’s Susanoo (burning like the Sun):
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Outline of the fabled Moon Rabbit
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The Moon happens to serve as the sealing stone of the Juubi, at least part of which consisted of the Rabbit Goddess, Kaguya:
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The Frogs serve as the primary allies of each generation’s defender of Ninshuu
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While Sasuke’s Left Moon Seal Hand and Naruto’s Right Sun Seal Hand were the hands destroyed by their final collision:
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Finally the Hyuuga can also be connected to the North Star. The Hyuuga’s primary techniques – the 8 Trigrams techniques – are derived from Chinese Taoism. The Tao itself can be translated as the Pole or Axis and is said to be embodied by Hùndùn Wújí Yuánshǐ Tiānwáng (混沌無極元始天王, "the Heavenly King of the Chaotic Never-ending Primordial Beginning" – Don’t make me spell out which star this is).
The Tao states that “ Tao produced One; One produced Two; Two produced Three; Three produced All things” – this is the short version. Essentially it means that the Tao (the Supreme Ultimate) came from nothingness (Wuji – the Void). From the Supreme Ultimate (Taiji) came Yin and Yang (Liangyi) and from Yin and Yang came Chi (the lifeforce behind everything else which expands out from the basic building blocks).
This philosophy parallels Senjutsu – which combines Chakra with natural energy in order acquire new power:
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The Hyuuga however take this a step further and utilize what is known as the Bagua:
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This is the expanding force of the Universe which splits 1 into 2, 2 into 4, 4 into 8 … up to 64 and beyond which is the geometric sequence embodied by Tao symbols:
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Hyuuga – Eight Trigams (i.e. The Bagua) Revolving Heaven (NB the North Star is the axis on which the Hyuuga and the Universe literally Spins) Technique:
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Morning Star
The second star that Amenominakanushi is associated with is the Morning Star. This Star is incredibly important in most world religions though the reasons why are now largely forgotten. Before we learned that the Morning Star was a planet (Venus), the Morning Star was revered as either one god or dual gods in almost every culture.
Venus:
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In Ancient Greece, Venus was originally believed to be two gods. The morning star they named Phosphoros / Eosphoros the “Bringer of Light” / the “Bringer of Dawn” and the Evening Star they called Hesperos (“Star of the Evening”). By Hellenistic times, they realized that the two were the same planet, which they then named after their goddess of Love, Aphrodite. When the Greek Empire fell and the Roman Empire took over, Aphrodite was renamed but remained the same goddess of Love (just with a Latin name), Venus. The name “the Evening Star” was dropped over time but the name, “the Morning Star”, is still commonly used.
Venus / the Morning Star is the second brightest object in the Night Sky after the Moon. Why is Venus so bright? There are droplets of sulfuric acid and acidic crystals in the atmosphere of Venus. The smooth surfaces of these droplets of sulfuric acid and crystals reflect light very well. Venus orbits the sun more closely than earth and relatively speaking is much closer to the earth than any genuine stars that emit their own light. Venus might be named after the goddess of love but the planet is a hellish 460°C. For the purposes of many ancient beliefs however brilliance is all that mattered. If the power of a god was measured by how brightly it shines then Venus is ranked as Star No.1.
I am unsure why Amenominakanushi is associated with both the North Star and and the Morning Star but the answer might have something to do with the development of early Calendars and Star Charts.
The North Star provides the fixed reference point and the Morning Star is the easiest star to chart the movement of because it is the brightest. The Morning Star has been used in various cultures to mark the seasons … which is what allowed people to know the best time to plant harvests etc. (the Morning Star can be used to predict the start or end of rainy season). The importance of these stars is marked on the Mayan Calendar, which charted the movement of Venus relative to the North Star with incredible accuracy before any other culture caught up with their Astronomy:
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The Morning Star is often associated with a certain duality. By this I mean that the Morning Star is considered at times to represent contrasting values - War and Peace, Love and Hate, Good and Evil… depending on the phase of its cycle. At certain times of the year Venus appears in all its glory in the morning (hence Morning Star… appearing before any other star is visible) while at other times it appears in the evening (hence why it used to also be known as the Evening Star before astronomers realized that they were one and the same).
This Duality is apparent in the deities associated with the Morning Star. For the Aztecs the Morning / Evening Star was personified as both Quetzalcoatl (the “Feathered Serpent”) god of the winds, fertility and life and his twin brother Xolotl (a skeleton jackal like figure) who was also the god of fire, lighting and death. This pair of twins were sons of the virgin Coatlicue.
Quetzalcoatl (NB the Aztecs did not consider human sacrifice a bad thing)
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Xolotl
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In the Mayan calendar the Morning Star is represented by a symbol that should be familiar – it appears to be the inspiration for Shukaku’s eyes and for the Uchiha Police Emblem and is perhaps Jashin’s cross (see earlier posts):
Lamat
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Shukaku’s Eyes
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Uchiha Police Emblem
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In Ancient Sumeria (one of the earliest civilizations of mankind located in what is present day Iraq), this duality was represented by the goddess Inanna who dates back as far as circa 4000–3100 BC. Inanna was identified with the planet Venus and like other gods associated with Venus could either be the goddess of Love or War (again depending on the phase of the planet).
Inanna:
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Inanna’s Star (Venus)
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Inanna and Venus (NB how closely Inanna and her star resembles the Chiba Mon / Toneri’s symbol)
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Stars and Astrology aren’t considered to play a prominent part in Christianity but the Morning Star is a special case. Both Jesus and Satan are at various times both referred to as the Morning Star. In Revelation 22:16 Jesus is described as "the bright morning star" while Satan also goes by the name Lucifer (which comes from the Latin name for the Morning Star - it translates as the "bringer of light"). Genesis 1:2 also closely parallels the Tao creation myth in kicking off creation from the Void and starting with the division of Light from the Darkness…
Magnum Chaos, painting from Basilica of Santa Maria Maggiore
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Genesis 1:2
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.
The now universal symbol for Christianity is the Cross. This is chosen to represent Jesus’s sacrifice to cleanse the sins of mankind. Christianity has not always used this symbol however. For the first couple of centuries Christians associated the Cross with persecution. The Cross was first adopted as a symbol in Egypt by the Coptic Christians. The Coptics took up the symbol of the Cross first because it overlapped with existing religious worship. The earliest Christian representations of the Crucifiction co-opted the Egyptian Symbol Ankh. Ankh doubles up as the symbol for Venus (used to denote Female… check out that Gender Box under your Avatar). Over time most Christian sects abandoned the loop but many still use the symbol to represent Christ.
Christian Cross
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Ankh (Universal Symbol for Venus)
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The Japanese also apply a duality to Amenominakanushi. The benevolent Myoken is matched with the not so benevolent Amatsu-Mikaboshi. Amatsu-Mikaboshi is the “evil god of primordial chaos”.
Amatsu-Mikaboshi is venerated as a Kami (the original Kami) but he is rarely worshipped like other gods. Mostly worship of Amatsu-Mikaboshi is something of a taboo that is associated with myths of various semi-historical figures. The Legendary figure of Himiko was fabled to follow Amatsu-Mikaboshi. Himiko (卑弥呼, ca. 170-248 CE) was a shaman queen of Yamataikoku in ancient Wa (Japan). It is unclear whether Himiko was real or not. There are records of Himiko but nobody can say for certain whether they correspond to an actual queen called Himiko or whether they apply to one of three alternative candidates known to have lived at around the same time.
In Chinese accounts (taken from the Records of Wei" (Wei Zhi 魏志), which covers the history of the Cao Wei kingdom (220-265)), Himiko is described as a Japanese Shaman Queen that sent tributes to China. Before Himiko and after Himiko the land was described as being in a state of constant war. It is suggested that Himiko’s magic and sorcery bewitched the people and brought peace to the Land. When Himiko died more than a hundred of her attendants were said to have followed her to the grave.
Kaguya parallels (?)
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Himiko
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Japanese History does not mention a queen Himiko, though that may simply be due to the patchy nature of Japanese records or the scandal surrounding her (controversial figures are often erased from history). Neither of Japan’s oldest histories, the Kojiki (古事記 "Records of Ancient Matters") nor the Nihon Shoki (日本書紀 "Chronicles of Japan"), mentions Queen Himiko. Japanese academics cannot agree on whether Himiko actually existed or whether she was instead one of three prominent shamans who are accounted for in Japanese records.
First up is Yamato-totohi-momoso-hime-no-mikoto, the aunt of Emperor Sujin (10th Japanese emperor, 97-30 BC). She supposedly committed suicide after learning her husband was a trickster snake-god.
Second is Empress Jingū (209-269 AD) wife of Emperor Chūai (14th emperor, 192-200 AD) and regent after his death. She is famous for consulting the spirits and thereby narrowly avoiding disaster for the Land. Her husband Emperor Chūai wanted to invade Kumaso but the Empress after speaking to the spirits advised invasion of Silla. Her husband did not agree with her plan and fell dead before he could do anything about it. The Empress pressed on with her plan and brought wealth to her people ruling until her son (Emperor Ōjin (15th emperor, 270-310) who was born after his “father”’s death) ascended to the throne.
Finally, Yamatohime-no-mikoto (倭姫命), the daughter of Emperor Suinin, supposedly founded the Ise Shrine to the sun-goddess Amaterasu after Amaterasu instructed her to build a shrine at the location where Amaterasu had first set foot on Japan. See above for the importance of the Ise Grand Shrine.
Part of me wonders whether Kishi might draw on these legends when he gets around to revealing the identity of Kaguya’s husband / the father of Hagoromo and Hamura. I can only speculate… trickster snake god (?).
Amatsu-Mikaboshi is said to rile against mankind. Amatsu-Mikaboshi does not have a human shape or at least if he does then it is as another Kami, Ame-no-Kagaseo (ja:天香香背男, "the Brilliant Male"). He is believed to corrupt humans with the promise of power, to use the dead against those who have close connections to them and to have an army of demons (Oni) at his command. Such tools all seem to be in the hands of one character in particular:
Edo (don’t forget the Kabutorochimaru army either)
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Corruption
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Demon Army
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Oni (masks)
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I could not find any traditional depictions of Amatsu-Mikaboshi though perhaps that is because this god is not supposed to have a body (it is said to have existed before the universe in/as the empty expanse of space). Amatsu-Mikaboshi has however been imported into western culture. This god is credited with having been one of the inspirations for the Sith in Star Wars because worship of this god is said to bring great power though at great risk of corruption of one’s soul (details are sketchy in English and I am unable to verify in Japanese sources however). Marvel though has developed this god into a character in its universe where he/she has taken on and defeated several of the MU’s most powerful characters. Marvel’s Amatsu-Mikaboshi bears more than a passing resemblance to BZ:
MU Amatsu-Mikaboshi
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BZ
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I doubt however that BZ is supposed to represent Amatsu-Mikaboshi. Amatsu-Mikaboshi represents the Primordial Chaos that is also known as the Void, which existed before all else. Black Zetsu refers to Kaguya as his mother which sort of dates him as being born / coming into existence after Kaguya…
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BZ could have been born of the union between the Rabbit Goddess and the Demon. The Demon is the one who has wanted Sasuke as his vessel from the first time he saw him and the Demon is much larger than BZ. I think that Orochimaru could be the Void made human (aka Ame-no-Kagaseo). The Void is the ring that Orochimaru wore as a member of Akatsuki (nobody replaced him after he left) and if there is one character that could have conspired to bring chaos to the world and who has consistently coveted Sasuke above all else then it is Orochimaru … who may well turn out to be this shadowy figure that is yet to have been identified:
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Orochimaru Void Ring
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Orochimaru might (just might) have been waiting for Sasuke since the dawn of the Universe as his means to undo mankind:
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Perhaps the Void is Orochimaru’s Cursed Seal that seems capable of bringing down any foe and which appears in all sorts of unlikely places:
Spreading forth from the Sharinnegan
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Humbling Madara
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Infecting Shukaku and Gaara
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Polluting the Demon Fox’s Chakra Network
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About to blow up Deidara
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Orochimaru’s Guinea Pig
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Depending on where you are in the world, for thousands of years the transition between Morning Star and Evening Star has been taken as an omen heralding the dawning of a new age, whether one of Benevolence to Malevolence. You can never entirely prove a theory but I think that the New Era Project might be guided by such an astronomical shift. Thus far I have avoided showing the Morning star in all its glory despite it being one of the most beautiful natural spectacles people can enjoy (beautiful enough even to make people believe in all kinds of crazy ideas):
Venus
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It shouldn’t be a surprise that the new phase of Naruto, the New Era Project, was ushered in by just such a spectacle… you might have missed it (I know I did on first read) …
Evening Star
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Morning Star
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Wait… don’t tell me that the Morning Star is pointing towards the Kimon (North Easterly direction of the Demon Gate). Looks like there might be trouble ahead.
P.S. This might not be the Best Theory in the World (… this is just a Tribute). The song at the start works in a couple of the beliefs detailed above (I count at least 4) in case you were wondering why I inserted it (pfft… is nothing sacred anymore?). Anyway despite the naysayers, I think there’s still more room for fresh theories.
Oh My goodness, When I read this part, it brought back my memories of an old observation that I had made. The impact that I got when I connected the dots was like a divine relevation. Lol It is all based on this thread of mine :-
Naruto's Birthday : The Release of the Demon ? :
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The Sequence
Naruto's Birthday falls between the phasing of the Morning Star and Evening Star.
During these periods, a series/sequence of events happen :-
1) The Evening Star rises.
2) A Demon is released.
3) The Demon wreaks Havoc.
4) The Demon kills two People related to Naruto.
5) The Demon is sealed away beacuse of the sacrifice of the two above people.
6) A new era begins with the rising of the Morning Star.
7) Naruto's Birthday begins.
Now we come to the significance of this sequence that Kishi has mesteriously focused a lot on Part 1 and Part 2.
Part One
1) The Evening Star, The Full moon Rises.
2) Obito releases the Demon Fox Kyuubi/Kuruma.
3) The Demon Fox Destroys Konoha.
4) Kuruma kills two people, Minato the Father of Naruto and Kushina, the Mother of Naruto.
5) The Demon Fox is sealed in Naruto with the sacrifices of Kushina and Minato.
6) A new era begins with the rising of the Sun, Morning Star.
7) Naruto's Birthday begins.
Part Two
1) The Evening Star, The Full Moon Rises.
2) The Juubi, an incarnation of the Rabbit Demon Kaguya is released. (Juubi = Kaguya + Shinju)
3) The Juubi devastates the battlefield.
4) The Juubi kills Neji, the best friend of Naruto and Kaguya kills Obito, who saved Naruto and Kakashi from near death.
5) Kaguya, The Rabbit Demon is sealed away in Chibaku Tensei beacuse Naruto had gotten courage and hope from Neji and Obito's Sacrifices.
6) A new era begins with the rising of the Sun, Morning Star.
7) Naruto's Birthday begins.
Part Three (How it could go)
1) The Evening Star, the Full Moon Rises.
2) The Primodial Demon, Void aka Orochimaru/Satan is revived as he obtains his vessel which is Sauske.
3) Orochimaru consumes the whole world by unleashing his true form, The Demon from the Moon (He consumes Earth). I believe Mugen Tsukuyomi will play a major role in this as it makes everything one leaving only the Void.
4/5) Orochimaru/Satan will get sealed away for eternity but not without the sacrifices of three people, Naruto (The Sun Seal), Sasuke (The Moon Seal) and Hinata (The Star Seal). I think all three will drown in Orochimaru's venom (Will explain later).
6) A new era begins with the rising of the Sun, Morning Star.
7) Ironically, Naruto's Birthday will become his Deathday. (Wierd but fated coincidence)
Extra Notes :-
Q) If it's like a continous cycle, why was the demon not sealed away in the first two attempts ?
A) Well, that's because, in the first and second attempts only the Sun and Moon Seals were used, (P.S: In first attempt, Yin and Yang Kuruma were divided and sealed) the Star seal was never used at all. Since the Star seal was used in conjunction with the Sun and Moon seals in the third attempt, the demon will be sealed away for eternity.
Q) Will the demon ever get released after the Third attempt ?
A) No, Chibaku Tensei uses only the Sun and Moon Seals and as such creates an imperfect seal (Ninjutsu) which fails eventually and the demon manages to break out. But, a seal formed by the Sun, Moon and Star seals (Ninshu) will ensure the Demon will never break out.
Q) How does Hinata have The Star Seal ?
A) The answer is the Byakugan. The Byakugan is like a plain circle and there is manga evidence that the Byakugan is a celestial (Star) Doujutsu. Also, since Hinata is a descendant of the Ootsutsuki clan, there is a possibility that she could have the missing link, the Star Seal.
Q) Why do the Main characters, Hinata, Sasuke and Naruto die ?
A) One reason is to continue the paralles that Kishi put in the story and to emphasise that great gain cannot be obtained without sacrifices. Also it goes in sync with legends where Kishi takes inspiration from. Like in Norse Legend, Jormungand (Snake) is killed by Thor but Thor, The Hero drowns in the snake's venom. Morever, one major thing is that the major characters of Part 3 are Bolt, Sarada and Himawari, not the above mentioned three.
As such, Kishi could use thier deaths to emphasise the characters of Bolt, Sarada and Himawari even further.
Q) Where does Sakura fit in all of this ? Why does she not die ?
A) I think it would be a wise choice by Kishi to not kill off Sakura as she could be like a Motherly figure to the kids after such a great tragedy. Also, it gives more prominence to the relationship between Sakura, Bolt, Himawari and Sarada. (She is finally not useless Lol)
Ok, enough of these questions, it's my turn, did you like this ?
[Immortal Blade] and [Waves, Listen to Me]
Misc caption:
デビュー前から, 岸本先生が(憧)れ続ける
From before debut, (Kishimoto-sensei?) continued to aspire (towards Samura-sensei?)
Big letters:
緊急対談!!
Urgent Announcement!!
岸本先生が(超尊敬＆超影響?)を受けた沙村先生と対談!!
(Ultra respected and super influential?) Samura-sensei interview with Kishimoto-sensei!!
Part 1 : 1/15 受けた (??）は超ドデカい！！岸本先生 ＋ 沙村先生が. 影(響)を受けたマンガ家とは！？ムフフなお話も！！
(?? ) is super giant!! Kishimoto-sensei and Samura-sensei received influence (from which mangaka)!? Also a (laughing?) story!!
[T/N] ムフフ=“mufufu”= laughing? Someone should look this up OTL~
Part 2: 1/16 岸本先生 ＋ 沙村先生が抱く作品への想い, そして欠点とは！？
Kishimoto-sensei and Samura-sensei, thoughts towards their work, and then the faults (of them)!?
Part 3: 1/17 読者待望お話!岸本先生の次なる作品、そして(両)先生の役割とは！？
A long-awaited story for readers! Kishimoto-sensei’s next work, and the parts of (both) sensei (Kishimoto and Samura) will be!?
[T/N] Not sure if this implies a collaboration or not. But Baidu seems to interpret it they are releasing something together. If this was the case, I would have expected ANN to know about it, at least.
さらに特別イラストを公開!!
Furthermore, special illustrations to be revealed!!
ShonenJump+だから 実現した
Released on ShonenJump+ (app or website)
夢のW巨匠の語り合い--
The talk of dreams from two masters--
[T/N] I think W=ダブル/ double or ダブる=coinciding. If it's the latter, than it should be like "The talk about the coinciding dreams of two masters"
その全てを３日連続で配信!!
All of them for 3 consecutive days of distribution
Looks like Kishimoto might be collabrating with the mangaka of Blade of the Immortal for this next work. Nothing is confirmed right now. It's rather interesting.
As I mentioned earlier, the symbol of the Chiba is composed of three elements… the Sun, the Moon and a Star. These symbols have separate meanings on their own and when joined together.
Star (星)/Sun (日)/Moon (月)
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The Sun symbol is often used as shorthand for Yang and likewise the Moon stands for Yin… indeed “taiyin” can be read as the Moon while “taiyang” means the Sun. Yin Release and Yang Release form the basis of many of the more powerful techniques exhibited in the Narutoverse. These techniques can help trace the heritage of the various clans. Those clans that inherited Yin techniques appear to be descended from Indra while those clans that inherited Yang techniques are probably descended from Asura.
Although it has never really been confirmed in the manga that any clans apart from the Uchiha and Senju are descended from Hagoromo – the physical traits and the techniques of the various clans connect several clans to one or other of the Sage’s sons. We know for instance that Naruto is a descendant of and the host to Asura’s transmigrating soul despite only being distantly related to the Senju. Thus Naruto inherited the Sage’s Yang energy. Sasuke on the other hand is a direct descendant of and the host to Indra who inherited Hagoromo’s Yin energy.
Hagoromo, Asura (Sun) and Indra (Moon)
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Naruto (Sun Seal) and Sasuke (Moon Seal)
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This Yin and Yang inheritance points to the Nara clan (whose Shadow Technique is a form of Inton) being cousins to the Uchiha and to the Akamichi clan being cousins to both the Senju/Uzumaki (whose primary Body Expansion Technique is a form of Yōton).
Yin and Yang Inheritance
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The Nara exercise a form of Inton which is incorporeal and focused on using the mind
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…while the Akimichi use a form of Yōton which is focused on expanding their bodies
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The blood relation is perhaps also evidenced by their common distinguishing features. The Nara are all intelligent and have black hair like the Uchiha. Meanwhile, the red hair of the Akimichi, their Body Expansion and the marks on Chouji’s face all make me think that the Akimichi are fellow descendants of the Sage of Six Paths. Hagoromo, the Akimichi and the Uzumaki all share the same red hair while the Gedo Mazo (Hagoromo’s empty shell) exhibits the trademark Body Expansion as well as spirals on its cheeks (the Spiral also being the Uzumaki Mon). The Gedo Mazo is supposed to have Dojutsu but because it had its Yin chakra ripped from it is simply a body there to be used and abused by any able to control it...
-I agree to the fact that the Nara clan is Yin dominant and that the Akimichi clan is Yang dominant , obviously.
But I find hard to believe that every Yin or Yang ninja is a descendants of Hagoromo.
Almost every ninja should be a descendant of Hagoromo , and that would leave a lot to explain over Ashura's and Indra's descendance who would be present at every point of the globe.
That would make Hagoromo's travel a complete fail.
-"the Akamichi clan being cousins to both the Senju/Uzumaki" , you are implying that the Uzumaki clan is a Yang dominant clan and that they are descendants of Ashura, I agree for Naruto and Nagato , but is that true for every Uzumaki?
The fact is that we don't know Nagato parents , we are sure that one of the 2 is a Uzumaki , but we don't know anything of the other , the fact is that the non-Uzumaki Nagato parent COULD BE a Senju.
We don't know anything on Minato's parents , we were just forced to watch a lot of similarities between that shiny child raised by the best student of Tobirama and Tobirama , there is more than a possibility for Minato Namikaze to be a Senju. So , the fact that Naruto and Nagato are probably Senju doesn't imply that every Uzumaki is a descendant of Ashura , because the story of their parents is not clear.
In fact , the databook seems to point that Uzumaki are Yin , here is the profile of Kushina Uzumaki , we don't have the profile of an older member of the clan in History , we don't even have Mito Uzumaki's profile (who has the Yin seal) , there is only one profile of a Uzumaki member born on the island of whirpools , here it is:
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Chakra nature: wind, water, Yin.
It's too quick to say that every ninja that comes from that island is Yin dominant but , there is a high probably that it's the case given that there is no other ninja clans on that island , as far as we know.
It seems that Uzumaki should be descendants of Indra in the simpliest theory , and that don't really match the tale , but it's still a possibility.
The Uzumaki clan being Yin dominant would explain a lot of details over this clan:
-Priests train their spirit , Uzumaki were priests , now that we know that they could be Yin dominant , I'm no more shocked by the Uzumaki priest thing.
-Mito is the first character shown with the Yin seal
-The chakra chains that Karin and Kushina (and probably Mito) use are a Yin type of power (birth from nothingness type)...
How would you explain Kushina's profile?
There is a way for the Uzumaki clan not to be descendants of Hagoromo.
There is a way for Hagoromo's travel to have been productive.
If Hagoromo gave the friends he met around the world the ability to use ninshuu (and by that fact , to use ninjutsu) , his travel wouldn't be a total fail , cause the descendance of his friends were all on the battlefield to protect their world.
It's a fail , because they are using ninjutsu , but they are cooperating (a step toward ninshuu) to protect humanity , and I'm sure that Naruto used ninshuu during that battle , without knowing it , it 's not a complete fail.
In that theory Naruto would be the descendant of one of Hagoromo's best friends named Uzumaki and also the descendant of Hagoromo 2nd child Ashura.
That would explain easily the fact that there are a lot of different ninjas around the world.
What do you think about that theory?
When you are saying that "the physical traits and the techniques of the various clans connect several clans to one or other of the Sage’s sons" ,
I kind of agree , but isn't that due to the fact that chakra is affecting your body and your techniques , aren't you taking the problem in the wrong direction?
I would say that the physical traits and the techniques of the various clans connect several clans to Yin and Yang , given that Ashura was a Yang master , I'm sure that you would see similarities between a good Yang master and Ashura , due to the fact that Yang mastery affects your physical traits and techniques , like we saw on Naruto.
The staffs of Myoken are similar to Hagoromo and Hamura's staffs.
Myoken Staffs :-
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Hagoromo and Hamura Staffs :-
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Also, I always wondered. Kishi initially in the NV only introduced two energies : Yin (Physical) and Yang (Spiritual). But in Part 2, he introduced a new type of energy, Shizen (Natural) energy. Part of me wondered where this Shizen energy fit ? I thought it was the energy of the Earth, but I think it represents the energy of the Universe.
The Juubi is an incarnation of Shin. Juubi = Shinju + Kaguya.
Juubi's energy being associated with the Earth and all of existence.
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Juubi's energy output being compared to the whole cosmos.
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The Juubi's power being showcased as a Star.
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If Shin Is Shizen (Star), Then is Kabbalah Yang (Sun) and Reverse Kabbalah Yin (Moon) ?
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Kabbalah (Light):
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Reverse Kabbalah (Drakness):
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Shin (Nature):
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Also, it's noteworthy that Kabbalah and Reverse Kabbalah have ten points. If we look at this from NarutoVerse's point of view, then the central point is the Juubi. The other nine points represents the Nine Bijuus.
Kabbalah Ten Points :-
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NarutoVerse Kabbalah being formed :-
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When Shin, Kabbalah and Reverse Kabbalah become one.
The Pain arc was also the arc when we were first introduced to the Rinnegan (Which can summon Gedo Mazou) and Chibaku Tensei (Which can seal Juubi/Kaguya). No idea whether the similarities were intended or not.
Kishi said he was told to make a plan for at least five years. So they would plan a enough things beforehand. They include the when they reach at that point in story.
Rinnegan was introduced by the end of the part 1- before the time skip.
The day we set off:
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Akatsuki was Introduced right after Hirunzen's death when Itachi made his first appearance and he was among the first characters created by Kishimoto. It doesn't make sense to introduce an organization without it's structure or any idea about it's leader or his powers. You can see Pain's eyes in last panel. It's just that his ID was not revealed till much later.
@OP: sorry but I don't have time to go though all the posts today. Maybe later. This post just caught my eye.
Kishi said he was told to make a plan for at least five years. So they would plan a enough things beforehand. They include the when they reach at that point in story.
Rinnegan was introduced by the end of the part 1- before the time skip.
The day we set off:
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Akatsuki was Introduced right after Hirunzen's death when Itachi made his first appearance and he was among the first characters created by Kishimoto. It doesn't make sense to introduce an organization without it's structure or any idea about it's leader or his powers. You can see Pain's eyes in last panel. It's just that his ID was not revealed till much later.
@OP: sorry but I don't have time to go though all the posts today. Maybe later. This post just caught my eye.
I know, I messed up my post. What I meant was that during that arc, we first saw the full power of the Rinnegan and how Chibaku Tensei actually worked. Before that we only got a few glimpses at the Rinnegan (Later on we realized it can bypass the Chibaku Tensei Seal) Gedo Mazou (Who would thought it was the Juubi's shell, not me though Lol) and the formation of the moon (Chibaku Tensei, Not sure on this one).
The symbolism similarities and the above perhaps gives a chance that Kishi thought up the Kaguya plotline during that arc or he just put future spoiler hints.
Also looking at that scan reminds me : Dem Indra Eyes. XD
-I agree to the fact that the Nara clan is Yin dominant and that the Akimichi clan is Yang dominant , obviously.
But I find hard to believe that every Yin or Yang ninja is a descendants of Hagoromo.
Almost every ninja should be a descendant of Hagoromo , and that would leave a lot to explain over Ashura's and Indra's descendance who would be present at every point of the globe.
That would make Hagoromo's travel a complete fail.
-"the Akamichi clan being cousins to both the Senju/Uzumaki" , you are implying that the Uzumaki clan is a Yang dominant clan and that they are descendants of Ashura, I agree for Naruto and Nagato , but is that true for every Uzumaki?
The fact is that we don't know Nagato parents , we are sure that one of the 2 is a Uzumaki , but we don't know anything of the other , the fact is that the non-Uzumaki Nagato parent COULD BE a Senju.
We don't know anything on Minato's parents , we were just forced to watch a lot of similarities between that shiny child raised by the best student of Tobirama and Tobirama , there is more than a possibility for Minato Namikaze to be a Senju. So , the fact that Naruto and Nagato are probably Senju doesn't imply that every Uzumaki is a descendant of Ashura , because the story of their parents is not clear.
In fact , the databook seems to point that Uzumaki are Yin , here is the profile of Kushina Uzumaki , we don't have the profile of an older member of the clan in History , we don't even have Mito Uzumaki's profile (who has the Yin seal) , there is only one profile of a Uzumaki member born on the island of whirpools , here it is:
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Chakra nature: wind, water, Yin.
It's too quick to say that every ninja that comes from that island is Yin dominant but , there is a high probably that it's the case given that there is no other ninja clans on that island , as far as we know.
It seems that Uzumaki should be descendants of Indra in the simpliest theory , and that don't really match the tale , but it's still a possibility.
The Uzumaki clan being Yin dominant would explain a lot of details over this clan:
-Priests train their spirit , Uzumaki were priests , now that we know that they could be Yin dominant , I'm no more shocked by the Uzumaki priest thing.
-Mito is the first character shown with the Yin seal
-The chakra chains that Karin and Kushina (and probably Mito) use are a Yin type of power (birth from nothingness type)...
How would you explain Kushina's profile?
There is a way for the Uzumaki clan not to be descendants of Hagoromo.
There is a way for Hagoromo's travel to have been productive.
If Hagoromo gave the friends he met around the world the ability to use ninshuu (and by that fact , to use ninjutsu) , his travel wouldn't be a total fail , cause the descendance of his friends were all on the battlefield to protect their world.
It's a fail , because they are using ninjutsu , but they are cooperating (a step toward ninshuu) to protect humanity , and I'm sure that Naruto used ninshuu during that battle , without knowing it , it 's not a complete fail.
In that theory Naruto would be the descendant of one of Hagoromo's best friends named Uzumaki and also the descendant of Hagoromo 2nd child Ashura.
That would explain easily the fact that there are a lot of different ninjas around the world.
What do you think about that theory?
When you are saying that "the physical traits and the techniques of the various clans connect several clans to one or other of the Sage’s sons" ,
I kind of agree , but isn't that due to the fact that chakra is affecting your body and your techniques , aren't you taking the problem in the wrong direction?
I would say that the physical traits and the techniques of the various clans connect several clans to Yin and Yang , given that Ashura was a Yang master , I'm sure that you would see similarities between a good Yang master and Ashura , due to the fact that Yang mastery affects your physical traits and techniques , like we saw on Naruto.
I don’t agree with a lot of the inferences you draw from my earlier post… I can understand why you draw them but it’s a little more complicated than my initial post might make it seem. There is a lot of information on the various clans that can be used to make familial connections. I use the examples of the Nara and Akimichi clans before but there are other clans as well that can claim special heritage.
I still have to come back to some of the other posts as well (Dragonor / Obikage) but for now I thought I'd focus on why lineage might be important to the Demon… hopefully this addresses some of the questions (though I imagine it might just get more heads scratching… anyway it'll have to do)
Royal Blood
There are a multitude of clans in Naruto but there are only a handful that stand out amongst the rest. What distinguishes these clans is not obvious. Up until very recently it was not clear what made one clan stronger than another except good fortune in the Darwinian struggles over the generations.
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What changed the landscape of the entire manga were the revelations about the Sage of the Six Paths and his family. We are only just starting to get a sense of the bigger picture and I imagine that there is a lot more to come. From the preliminary pieces of information we can get a sense of how it all fits together. What’s more, I think it fits neatly into the expanding narrative of the Demon…
Heirs to the Demon
In my earlier post I describe the Yin and Yang Inheritance from the Sage of the Six Paths. These are techniques that can be attributed to heritage from one or other of Hagoromo’s sons, Indra or Asura.
Yin and Yang are not for the most part passed down according heritage. If they were then both of the Sage’s sons would have inherited the same Yin and Yang abilities of their father but they didn’t. Instead we find out that one son inherited more of less of all of their father’s Yin powers (Indra) while the other son inherited all of their father’s Yang abilities (Asura).
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This Yin and Yang Inheritance is what I consider distinguishes certain clans from the rest. We know the Uchiha are descended from Indra and the Senju from Asura but that is about the extent of what we know for certain.
Previously I talked about the Nara and Akamichi Clans. I think that the Nara are more likely to be descended from Indra and the Akimichi more likely to be descended from Asura but these are not the only clans that I think might share Royal Blood.
Almost every ninja in the Narutoverse is able to mold chakra because molding chakra is something that can be taught. The first thing that any student in a Ninja Academy undergoes is a test to check their Nature Affinity (Earth, Wind, Water, Fire or Electricity):
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Just because a ninja is born with a predisposition for one of these affinities does not mean that they cannot develop other nature transformation techniques. Through hard work, Jonin are said to be able to master multiple elements while the professor was able to master all five:
Jonin:
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Hiruzen (the “Professor”)
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Even those who have no talent for molding chakra can unlock chakra through alternative means like Might Dai / Guy / Lee
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Eight Gates unlocking chakra
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Others on the other hand are born with innate talent (the Uchiha besides the Sharingan can also all use Enton):
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Almost everyone in Naruto has some kind of superpower but there is a dividing line. Those who are born with abilities that are awoken and those who develop abilities through training. What is the importance of this dividing line? I think that this is what divides those who are more closely related to Kaguya from those who are not.
How can you tell who is a descendant of Kaguya and who is not? I think that there are a number of telling giveaways that Kishi has slipped into the Manga from very early in proceedings.
I think that the most basic test to determine heirs to the Rabbit Goddess is whether or not the Sharingan can copy a technique. The Sharingan is supposed to be able to copy all techniques and is the reason why Kakashi earned his title of the Copy Ninja Kakashi:
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During Naruto’s “advanced training” Kakashi brushes aside Naruto’s question about why he can’t copy KKG and goes out of his way to say that clan techniques like those of the Nara, Akimichi and others are too complicated to easily explain to Naruto than other more straightforward techniques – we’ve never seen Kakashi copy any of these more complicated techniques but we have seen him use the eight gates:
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Kakashi probably evades the question because he doesn’t have an answer but I think we are starting to get a better idea of why certain clans are special while others are not. Maybe Part 3 will address some of the finer details about Yin and Yang techniques:
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The second giveaway is a claim to Royal Blood. The most obvious clan that claims to have Royal Blood are the Hyuuga. It would seem from spoilers from Naruto The Last that the Hyuuga are descended from Hamura. This explains the Byakugan Inheritance passing all the way down from Kaguya to Hinata:
Kaguya
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Hamura
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Hinata
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However there are other clans that claim Nobility. The are at least four Noble Clans in Konoha (databook 1 page 215). Of those confirmed four, two are known to be descended from Kaguya (the Uchiha and Hyuuga) while another bears traits that I think belonged to the Sage (the Akimichi see the earlier post). The Aburame are still something of a mystery – we don’t know what any of their eyes look like and they were heavily involved in Root… :
The Four Noble Clans
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The Uzumaki appear to be some kind of royalty from the Land of Whirlpools. It is not entirely clear how they are related to the Sage but they are known to be distant cousins of the Senju, they wore formal dress akin to the various Lords of the Five Ninja Countries and Jinchuuriki were selected from their number because of their “special chakra”:
Distant cousins to the Senju:
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Formal Dress:
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Special Chakra:
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I think that the “special chakra” is a reference to Kushina’s Chakra Chains that appear to fall into that category of techniques that are awoken rather than taught – based on Karin’s experience:
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These Chakra Chains are said to belong to the Outer Path by Son Gokū:
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… and are deployed by the Gedo Mazo (Hagoromo’s Empty Shell):
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The third giveaway are the names. There are two clans named after the Sage and his Mother. The Hagoromo Clan was one of the clans warring with both the Uchiha and Senju – and so they were presumably pretty strong:
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While the Kaguya Clan inherited the Rabbit Goddess’s Bone Manipulation techniques (Shikotsumyaku) – NB the forehead markings were used in real life during the Heian Period to distinguish the Nobility who referred to themselves as the “maro”:
Kaguya Clan
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Kimimaro Normal / Shikotsumyaku Transformation
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Kaguya Normal / Shikotsumyaku Transformation
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For what it’s worth even Jiraiya seems to have inherited a couple of special techniques including his Lion’s Mane:
Jiraiya
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Kaguya
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Yin and Yang are not exclusively passed down from the Sage of Six Paths. Indeed I think there is a strong case to be made that Yin and Yang techniques can be taught to anyone. However there are certain techniques that cannot be taught or indeed copied. I think that these techniques are important in the grander scheme since they distinguish those descended from / closely related to Kaguya from those who have simply learned to mold chakra. I think that innate techniques help establish who has special lineage and in some cases how (the Yin Yang Inheritance as applied solely to those innate techniques).
I would associate the Uzumaki broadly speaking with the Asura Descendants. They inherited the Life Force and physical attributes of the Sage that fit into the Yang category and they have the chakra chains of the Sage’s empty shell (his body the Gedo Mazo).
Why then do all the Uzumaki Women display Yin Techniques? I’m not entirely certain of the reason for this but I think that it might have something to do with gender. The Uzumaki Yin Chakra Seal has been exclusively used by the women of the Uzumaki Clan and those taught by them. This is not an innate clan ability since it is taught to an outsider (e.g. Sakura):
Yin Chakra Seal Mito
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Yin Chakra Seal Tsunade (granddaughter of Mito / Hashirama) Before & After
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Yin Chakra Seal Sakura (Haruno Clan possible distant Senju / Uzumaki cousin going by the pink hair and clan symbol)
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Some people mistake the Yin Chakra Seal for Slug Sage Mode. As far as I’m aware the Yin Chakra Seal has no connection to the Slugs whatsoever. No user of the Yin Chakra Seal has been shown to take on Slug characteristics in the same way that Frog Sage Mode brings on Toad Eyes and Warts and Dragon Sage Mode brings on Scales and Snake Eyes:
Frog Sage Mode
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Dragon Sage Mode
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The reason why I think the Yin Seal might be gender specific is that Hashirama had what can be read as the complementary Yang Chakra Seal:
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The symbol on Hashirama’s forehead is an ancient symbol for the sun (dating back thousands of years to the Egyptian Sun God’s Eye of Ra symbol) – the Circumpunct:
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Sun gods tend to be male – in the Egyptians case this symbol represented the Eye of Ra. Moon gods on the other hand tend to be female. The god / bodhisattva that I think most ties in with Kaguya is called Kannon in Japan and Guan Yin in China (Yin being a giveaway).
Guan Yin
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Senju Kannon in real life
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Senju Kannon
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I won’t pretend that genealogy is consistently applied in Naruto but for the most part techniques and traits tie characters to each other whether by blood (innate techniques and physical traits) or by association (students wear the same outfits as their masters, adopt the same hair cuts and use the same expressions).
In some respects Kishi has free license to apply whatever rules he wants to in his manga. It is worth noting that a lot of the more nonsensical laws determining who inherits what are reflected in equally nonsensical real world beliefs. Royal Families exist because of the real world belief in Royal Blood (the Divine Right of Kings in Europe, the Mandate of Heaven in China, descent from the Sun Goddess Amaterasu in Japan etc.). Belief in such notions led to generations of Royals being born to worryingly incestuous relationships. The joke about “first cousin, first choice” was all too true of many Royals – take for example Charles II of Spain whose family tree was more of a circle:
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Such inbreeding produced a raft of strange physical and mental health problems. One King of France was convinced he was made of glass and used to throw stones at servants to see if they were too (Charles VI of France – the “Mad King” that GoT probably pays tribute to) while others are renowned for distinguishing physical features (the Hapsburg Nose / Jaw). I digress but the point is that if the Uchiha and Senju were pure clans for 1000 years then they would probably have serious mental and health problems (… wait, crazy eyes and damaged brains … now it all makes sense).
Uchiha Curse:
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Naruto Alchemy and Eugenics
I doubt there are many people out there who understand the difference between alchemy, eugenics and genetics (and I only know a little) but I think that Kishi might be one of them. Kishi builds on certain pop culture tropes that apply to all three fields and has worked them into the fabric of his story. The references he makes are easily overlooked but if you recognise the symbols he uses and how he uses them then I think it helps make more sense of the story to come.
Science was born from a series of beliefs and discoveries that attempted to make sense of the world. Before Science, the world seemed magical and the explanations offered by early thinkers reflected their limited understanding of what was actually going on around them. When discoveries were made they were often wrapped up in mysticism that seems silly now but which at the time were tenets of belief (the world being flat, the Homunculous…).
Alchemy was the forerunner of the major sciences. Chemistry was the principle science born of Alchemy. Alchemy is Arabic / Greek in origin and roughly translates as Black Earth. The name chemistry was simply a shortening of the word Al”chemy” in an effort to distance itself from its superstitious origins. Alchemy is often associated with the attempt to turn base metals into gold but it was much more besides. In practice the alchemists attempted to purify minerals and so be able extract precious metals from what was otherwise dirt. This fixation with purity extended to mankind as the alchemists also pursued the elixir of life in an effort to extend longevity and ultimately achieve immortality.
If it sounds too good to be true then that’s because it was. The alchemists conducted all kinds of amateurish experiments in an effort to build their knowledge. Immortality was and is a forlorn hope but it hasn’t ever stopped some people trying:
Orochimaru:
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There are many examples of doctors who would dig up the graves of the recently deceased (or employ others to do so) in order to obtain subjects for experiments.
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This is essentially what Orochimaru engaged Kabuto to do in order to advance his studies (NB it should be called Body Snatching since Grave Robbing is just the looting of valuables from corpses):
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The caricature of the early alchemists appears to have had a big influence on Kishimoto when designing certain characters. The idea of test tube babies is something that has horrified people for generations. Orochimaru borrows from several of these myths…
Engraving of Goethe’s Faust and Homunculous (NB the body being grown in a test tube – this is the “Homunculous”):
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The Alchemists Workshop 1580 – this used to look very high tech:
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Orochimaru’s Labs growing experimental bodies in chambers
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The search for purity in mankind evolved into the study of Eugenics. Eugenics was the attempt to use selective breeding in order to achieve socially useful ends. Unsuccessful experiments were eliminated and successful ones were promoted in order to speed up the process of Darwinian natural selection or even to harness it in order to breed fatter cattle, faster race horses or more compliant pets (pedigree dogs). Eugenicists did not just stop at dogs however as they moved their experiments onto mankind.
Eugenics was popular throughout the world up until WW2. Criminals were forcibly sterilized as were simple debtors and young girls who fell pregnant too young to look after children. The expectation was that this would improve the health of the nation and thereby make it stronger for such noble pursuits as war. This is essentially what Nazi Germany attempted to achieve when they turned the state into a machine of mass murder. This type of scene from the manga was most likely inspired by the horrifying experiments conducted by actual Nazi doctors:
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Human Experimentation
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At the same time as killing millions of those believed to make Germany weaker (the Jews, gypsies, the infirm … anyone on the wrong side of National Socialism), Nazi Germany also encouraged breeding programmes between it’s soldiers and those identified as being racially pure in conquered territories. Many thousands of children were born of these programmes including one of the members of ABBA (Frida Lyngstad had to spend her childhood in hiding to avoid retribution):
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The goal was to breed a race of supermen (Übermensch) called the Aryan Race. Essentially Nazi Germany saw itself as a polluted state made weak through mixing with others (minorities like the Jews). The Aryans were a fiction dreamt up various Eugenicists. They believed the Aryan Race to be an ancient people superior to all those around them. The Eugenicists believed the Ayrans had migrated from the Far East (Asia) with blond hair and blue eyes rather than Africa (where all mankind can trace its origins to). The symbol used to represent this fantasy of a pure race of Aryans was the Swastika… the same symbol as appears on Neji’s unedited caged bird seal:
Hyuuga Caged Bird Seal Edited (to avoid any association with the Nazi symbol)
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Hyuuga Caged Bird Seal Unedited
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Racial purity was the gold that Eugenicists aspired to and like the Alchemists their goal was a forlorn hope. Repeated studies have shown that when the gene pool is too limited or is segregated from the outside world that all it achieves is to create various physical and mental health problems (just as it did amongst European Royalty). Pedigree dogs, cattle and racehorses are all known to suffer congenital problems that can be far worse for the animals than the benefits they might enjoy from repeated selective breeding.
What has this got to do with Orochimaru? The alchemical quest for the Elixir or Life appears to be the entire goal of Orochimaru’s various experiments over the years. His endless massacre of countless shinobi in order to bring out the fittest and strongest conforms to the harebrained pursuits of the early alchemists. Thousands are pitted against each other in Orochimaru’s dungeons to select the most suitable vessels for their Lord – the winner gets one step closer to serving as the next vessel for Orochimaru:
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Orochimaru callously discards his failed experiments:
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Orochimaru pays special attention to those of noble blood (see above). Orochimaru’s favourite experiments all appear to share some link going back to Kaguya and the Ootsutsuki:
Elite Subjects – Hebi
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Kabuto (NB the Snake growing out of him always appears to be in charge)
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Even during the Fourth Shinbi War, the one who knew everything was not Madara or Black Zetsu… but Orochimaru:
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All throughout the war Kabuto was being controlled by Orochimaru:
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…and before it Orochimaru had been getting Kabuto to keep tabs on his formers cell:
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Orochimaru knew what Tobi and Madara were going to do before they did it:
Tobi
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Madara
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Kimimaro could sense Orochimaru’s influence over the entire Edo army:
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This all fits into Orochimaru’s grand plan to find the elixir of life (immortality) and recreate the universe in his image:
Ultimate Goal (Immortality is just a stepping stone)
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Means to his End (?)
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The symbols that Kishi employs do not just reference ancient cultures (like the Ancient Eqyptian Eye of Ra used as short hand to represent the Sun and Yang) but the prototype periodic tables put together by the early alchemists:
Hashirama’s Yang Seal (?):
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Sakura Haruno’s Clan Symbol:
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Symbols used by the alchemists for the elements and planers (NB Gold and Silver – Sun and Moon):
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Kishi even makes a number of more modern references to Alchemy that are not all that are not all that easy to pick up on. Take the symbol behind Hagoromo… this is the same symbol used to represent the Eye of God in Full Metal Alchemist:
Eye of God
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Hagoromo’s Symbol:
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The Star on Sasuke’s face in Cursed Seal Mode could even be read as the mark of the Humunculous (FMA reference but also a real world alchemical myth about what could be achieved by manipulating the building blocks of life – it’s a little too grim to go into the details of):
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Sasuke has been a pet project of Orochimaru’s:
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In 666 Satan, Satan is not just a demonic force at the root of all evil. He is also a struggling scientist attempting to achieve absolute power at any cost … including the destruction of the universe. Orochimaru’s plot seems to be following the same lines from what I can make out.
Yay Science:
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If we take Kaguya to have been a failed experiment (by no means guaranteed) then I think there is a case to be made that Orochimaru has been spending generations and countless bodies in order to correct the mistakes that ended up with this thing going out of control - you can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs … so to speak:
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… what Naruto. Sasuke and the Shinobi army fought was several orders of magnitude smaller (they're not at the sage's level quite yet).
This is just a rough guide to how I view the way Kishi has handled genealogy as a theme within the manga. It is worth stressing that Kishi always show hard work triumphing over natural talent. Naruto despite being the son of a Hokage and a proud lineage of nobility hasn't actually inherited much in the way of techniques…he has always had to learn and practice in order to be able to build on his fathers legacy with things like the Rasenshuriken. Naruto's Ninja way even triumphs over the sword that created everything - Nunoboko … a reference not just to the spear that was said to have been used to create Japan, Amenonuhoko, but a nod to modern Genetics which is where alchemy stands today in understanding the building blocks of life … the sword is made from the Double Helix of DNA.
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I wouldn't worry too much if it doesn't all make sense. The Japanese love pseudo science in all their media. If you've ever wondered why the Databook also tells you the blood types of characters, here's why
I don’t agree with a lot of the inferences you draw from my earlier post… I can understand why you draw them but it’s a little more complicated than my initial post might make it seem. There is a lot of information on the various clans that can be used to make familial connections. I use the examples of the Nara and Akimichi clans before but there are other clans as well that can claim special heritage.
-In short , you say: "I don't agree" , I'm proud to have that information , nice discussion.
-I didn't draw a lot of inferences from your post , I did react on one sentence that was the pillar of your post:
This Yin and Yang inheritance points to the Nara clan (whose Shadow Technique is a form of Inton) being cousins to the Uchiha and to the Akamichi clan being cousins to both the Senju/Uzumaki (whose primary Body Expansion Technique is a form of Yōton).
-You should weight your words , that's not a lot , in fact I draw one inference from your post: I understood that you said that the Uzumaki clan was a Yang dominant clan (yoton).
You don't agree with that inference , I'm glad to know it , really. But why don't you agree?
I'm shocked I have to ask the question , great discussion.
-I asked 2 question , you didn't answer any.
I understand that you can't explain Kushina's profile.
I'm starting to think that you talk but you don't listen.
-Ooniki's will of fire , stronger than Tsunade Senju's , his Yang dominance , his ability to fly , his life force and his big nose also seem to point a relation between him and Hagoromo.
First up lets be clear, I’m not going to lose any sleep if you fail to grasp the nuances of what I’m describing. These aren’t the easiest concepts to wrap your head around nor can I pretend to be any kind of authority on all the matters I raise. That said you make a number of fundamental errors when discussing my post and I’ll try and clear up at least some of them insofar as they apply to what I actually wrote. You don't have to agree with me but I don't like it when people say I imply things that I specifically don't. I ignored parts of your post in my earlier response with good reason… they were either not relevant to the thread, completely unsubstantiated or built on misunderstandings of my original post.
Let me correct you there… you drew a lot of inferences from my post and whether you realise it or not your conclusions are completely at odds with what I set out. If I didn’t address all your points then it's mainly because they bore no relation to the actual subject of this thread or the content of my post. If you want me to break down exactly how and why the conclusions you drew conflicted with my own then let me elaborate…:
At no point do I say that every Yin or Yang user is a descendant of Hagoromo. I point to various techniques that can be identified as being hereditary that fall into the category of either Yin or Yang but I do not suggest that every Yin and/or Yang technique is hereditary. Those Yin and Yang techniques that are hereditary are what I describe as a Ying or Yang Inheritance that can be traced back to one or other of the Sage’s sons or indeed back even further to Kaguya (not necessarily via Hagoromo).
Certain Yin and Yang techniques are not hereditary … they can be taught – I use the example of the Yin Seal which Sakura learned from Tsunade. Using the Yin Sea does not make Sakura an heir to Hagoromo. If every generation of a clan was born with the Yin Seal and nobody else was able to use the Yin Seal then I might think that the Yin Seal was hereditary … but they aren’t so I don’t.
-"the Akamichi clan being cousins to both the Senju/Uzumaki" , you are implying that the Uzumaki clan is a Yang dominant clan and that they are descendants of Ashura, I agree for Naruto and Nagato , but is that true for every Uzumaki?
The Uzumaki are a Yang dominant clan. Women of the Clan tend to be Yin users because “female” forces tend to fall into the category of Yin just as “male” forces fall under the category of Yang (see Guan Yin and Ra above or look up Yin and Female or Yang and Male on Google / go away and read some books) .
The Uzumaki inherited the physical traits of the Sage (his red hair) and they inherited the “Life Force” that was passed down to Asura
Asura Flame Cloak
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Yang Inheritance Asura - Body, Life Force, Physical Energy
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Yin / Yang Associations
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The Chakra Chains of the Uzumaki might appear to be spirit based and therefore Yin based but I think that the chains are supposed to represent the overabundance of Yang … literally burning life force … passed down from Asura to the Uzumaki and ultimately to Naruto. This is illustrated by the effect of Naruto’s Chakra Cloak on Yamato’s Mokuton when he first takes on his Cloak:
Naruto Yang Release – Life Force affecting Mokuton
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In their ultimate forms, the Yang Chakra Cloak of Asura can be seen taking on the Yin Chakra Cloak of Indra (Susanoo):
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These Cloaks take on the appearance of Tengu, the real life mythical creatures from Japan.
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Indra’s Tengu (and that of the Uchiha in general) is a Yamabushi Tengu seen on the right (marked by it’s distinctive long nose – it tends to be the one associated with kidnapping children, tax inspectors, religious police…)
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The Yamabushi Tengu also traditionally carries a fan. This is the Sages fan that Sasuke was pictured carrying as far back as Volume 7 and which the Uchiha are named after:
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Asura’s Tengu is a Karasu Tengu (marked by it’s beak). This Tengu was/is prayed to in order to ward off fires. This Tengu is often associated with a White Fox…
Akiba Daigongon Tengu (possible Kiba connection? … who knows)
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In the manga, Asura’s Tengu effectively merges with the Fox (Kurama) in order to produce the pinnacle of Naruto’s current Chakra Cloak:
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See also the statues outside the Fire Temple
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Close up of the contrasting Tengu faces
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I think that the Chakra Chains of the Uzumaki can be read as a limited release of Asura’s Tengu … just as the Uchiha can manifest the simple body parts Susanoo e.g. just the arms
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I think that the chains are an inherited Yang Technique. The colour of the chains / chakra cloaks is important… keep in mind that Yin roughly translates as dark and Yang as bright.
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The Chakra Chains belong to the empty shell of the Sage … his body (which falls under the category of Yang)… aka the Gedo Mazo
Gedo Mazo using the chains
-The fact is that we don't know Nagato parents , we are sure that one of the 2 is a Uzumaki , but we don't know anything of the other , the fact is that the non-Uzumaki Nagato parent COULD BE a Senju.
I didn’t go into Nagato’s parentage … except to say that he has those traits that can be traced back through Asura to the Sage – Red Hair (Sage) Strong Life Force (Asura)
Red Hair Nagato (the Third of the Six Paths)
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Red Hair (Sage)
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Uzumaki Red Hair / Life Force (their Yang Inheritance)
- So , the fact that Naruto and Nagato are probably Senju doesn't imply that every Uzumaki is a descendant of Ashura , because the story of their parents is not clear.
The Uzumaki are not Senju they are distant cousins of the Senju. Asura was Ootsutsuki and not Senju. Multiple clans are likely to be descended from Asura and they would all be distant cousins (Senju, Uzumaki … and possibly Akimichi see above for shared traits):
Distant Cousins
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The Senju are direct descendants of Asura but they are not necessarily the only ones:
For a start I don't necessarily regard the Databooks as canon since they are often littered with mistakes that end up having to be corrected years later (they aren't written by Kishi in the same way that the manga is).
Even if you take the Databooks to be canon I wouldn't necessarily agree that Kushina using Yin techniques has any bearing on the Uzumaki clan's Yang Inheritance (as set out in the Manga - Red Hair, Life Force, the "body" techniques of the Sage). Yin is more commonly associated with Females (see Guan Yin above) … hence why Mito and Tsunade have a Yin Seal … Yin = Dark / Night / Moon but it is also the feminine category. Hashirama (who was married to Mito and is grandfather to Tsunade) has the Yang Seal. This is represented by the Sun Symbol on his forehead… Yang = Bright / Day / Sun but it is also the "male" category. These Yin / Yang techniques do not appear to be hereditary. The Databook only categorises characters by what techniques individual characters use and not their clan inheritance (Tobirama, a Senju and direct descendant of Asura is Yin). There are more than 4 different types of ninja (Yin and Yang, Yin or Yang or neither) and Yin and Yang can be taught so it cannot be taken as a determining factor in categorising clans … at least not on its own.
What I set out as part of this theory is that whether a clan can be said to be Yin or Yang dominant depends on their hereditary techniques and their traits. Not all clans inherit Yin or Yang techniques and not every member of every clan that does inherit techniques is necessarily able to use them… but there are patterns.
Just because Yin is generally associated with feminine traits and Yang is associated with masculine ones does not mean that all men are listed as having a Yang affinity nor are all women listed as having a Yin affinity but it does explain certain techniques like the Yin and Yang Seals.
Yin and Yang are concepts that belong to a belief system that has been applied in various contexts for millennia. Kishi follows many of the rules that exist in real life including where those rules contradict themselves. There are some very old and very long lists out there about how Yin and Yang are said to express your inherent nature – I won’t bother you with all the mumbo jumbo but suffice to say that Kishi keeps pretty consistent with these myths. This is still a work of fiction with a world governed by fantasy rather than science. I suggest you look it up if you want to find out more. Here’s Kishi’s “you don’t understand and I don’t care” face if that doesn’t satisfy you…
The fact is that we don't know Nagato parents , we are sure that one of the 2 is a Uzumaki , but we don't know anything of the other , the fact is that the non-Uzumaki Nagato parent COULD BE a Senju.
We don't know anything on Minato's parents , we were just forced to watch a lot of similarities between that shiny child raised by the best student of Tobirama and Tobirama , there is more than a possibility for Minato Namikaze to be a Senju….
-I agree to the fact that the Nara clan is Yin dominant and that the Akimichi clan is Yang dominant , obviously.
The Uzumaki clan being Yin dominant would explain a lot of details over this clan:
-Priests train their spirit , Uzumaki were priests , now that we know that they could be Yin dominant , I'm no more shocked by the Uzumaki priest thing.
-Mito is the first character shown with the Yin seal
-The chakra chains that Karin and Kushina (and probably Mito) use are a Yin type of power (birth from nothingness type)...
There is a way for the Uzumaki clan not to be descendants of Hagoromo.
There is a way for Hagoromo's travel to have been productive.
If Hagoromo gave the friends he met around the world the ability to use ninshuu (and by that fact , to use ninjutsu) , his travel wouldn't be a total fail , cause the descendance of his friends were all on the battlefield to protect their world.
It's a fail , because they are using ninjutsu , but they are cooperating (a step toward ninshuu) to protect humanity , and I'm sure that Naruto used ninshuu during that battle , without knowing it , it 's not a complete fail.
In that theory Naruto would be the descendant of one of Hagoromo's best friends named Uzumaki and also the descendant of Hagoromo 2nd child Ashura.
That would explain easily the fact that there are a lot of different ninjas around the world.
What do you think about that theory?
I don’t agree with it for all of the many reasons set out in excruciating detail both in this post and the one above. If you think your theory can be developed then make a thread about the subject. It’s not relevant to the topic here and I don't think it is / can be particularly well supported with the manga. Maybe Kishi will retcon the Namikaze to give them some significance in Part 3 but we know next to nothing about Minato’s clan. At the same time, we know a fair bit about the Uzumaki Clan and all of it ties them to Hagoromo and Asura as far as I can tell.
-I asked 2 question , you didn't answer any.
I understand that you can't explain Kushina's profile.
I'm starting to think that you talk but you don't listen.
If I don’t respond to all the points you make it's because sometimes the points you make are incoherent or completely unsubstantiated. I wouldn’t mind except that sometimes you seem to blame me for the conclusions you reach and the conclusions you reach bear little relation to what I actually wrote. If you want to write a thread about how the Uzumaki are not related to the Senju but that the Namikaze are related to the Senju then go right ahead. There’s a case to be made there and I look forward to reading it but it’s not supported by anything in this thread nor is it relevant to the central theory of this one … hence why I breezed over a lot of your earlier post rather than address it.
I’ll try to respond politely if you’ve got anything relevant to say here in future but please don’t test my patience with exclamations about how I don’t listen to the points you make or how I don’t weigh my words correctly. I gave you a pretty thorough response before and I’m taking time to make it clearer again here now. If you can’t appreciate that then you know where to go.
-Ooniki's will of fire , stronger than Tsunade Senju's , his Yang dominance , his ability to fly , his life force and his big nose also seem to point a relation between him and Hagoromo.
Re Oonoki… it’s not yet clear whether he was born with the ability to combine three elements or whether he was simply taught how to do so. Oonoki’s Dust release is described as a Kekkei Tōta (血継淘汰 meaning "blood inheritance" or "bloodline selection") but he also tells of how he was taught his technique by Muu. Dust Release might be like Mokuton in that it does not belong to a clan but instead might require both teaching (Yamato was trained in Mokuton by Danzo according to the Anime) or genius (Hashirama invented the technique as far as I’m aware) and inherent talent (a natural affinity for the right nature transformations or years of hard training building on skill… Orochimaru killed many children in an effort to force a child to use Mokuton - Yamato was the product of these experiments).
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This contrasts with Chōji’s / the Akimichi ultimate ability:
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… Karin’s / the Uzumaki ultimate ability:
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… or even Sasuke / the Uchiha ultimate ability (the Sharingan)
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…all of which were awoken rather than taught or copied. Not all clans have a Yin or Yang Inheritance… just the special ones. Oonoki might be an example of a ninja persevering and overcoming through strength of will rather than a ninja relying on inherited techniques (see also the Professor above).
What is relevant to this thread is that Orochimaru appears to have been collecting the bloodline limits and clan based hereditary techniques for quite some time and that's what I focus on above. If you want a general discussion about Yin and Yang or KKG then find somewhere else or start your own thread.
Back on topic - I've only got a couple more ideas that I can expand into updates to this theory… something about how Bolt might fit into the broader narrative of the Demon (Obikage), something about the countdown to the apocalypse expanding on the Morning Star theme (Dragonor), something new about Hamura and something about Spiral. Some are more speculation than anything else but I think they're all interesting. Of the above choices does anyone have any particular preferences? If not I'll probably start with Hamura.
Hello, RT; Initially I wanted your thoughts on these theories of mine but later on I just forgot to say it. After reading a few of your theories, I decided to know your thoughts on this.
The basis of this theory is the question : Why were the Edo Hokages immune to Mugen Tsukuyomi ? There were two answers to solve this question, but imo neither of them worked according to the manga.
White Zetsu Bodies : According to this one, the Edo Hokages had White Zetsu bodies and were immune to MT because MT was never designed to turn White Zetsus into White Zetsus. Meaning those who have White Zetsu bodies are immune to MT. But the problem that rises here is that Orochimaru was using a White Zetsu body but still fell under MT.
Dead People : According to this one, since Edos are immune to MT because they are dead. But there is no valid explanation to this because
(A) Edos can fall under genjutsu and as such fall under MT as well (Edo Itachi fell under Kabuto's Genjutsu).
(B) Edos have Life Force (Chakra, Souls) and since Shinju absorbs chakra, they fall under MT as well.
My answer to this was related to the Reaper Death Spirit : Part-1:
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and Part-2:
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I must say that RDS being Kaguya is outdated. But after reading your theories, I think the RDS explanation works if the RDS is Hamura or an Ootsutsuki . It goes like this :-
I think Mugen Tsukuyomi was actually created by a group of 28 Ootsutsukis (Scientists) who wanted to create the Shinju's Fruit (Make all chakra one) and used Kaguya as a test subject. They sacrificed themselves for this purpose. Their souls would become trapped in the masks of the Uzumaki Shrine while their bodies would become White Zetsus.
As these Ootsutsukis (Scientists) sacrificed themselves to create Mugen Tsukuyomi, it's common sense that they would be immune to Mugen Tsukuyomi's effects. The Edo Hokages's immunity to MT comes from the RDS, a fallen Ootsutsuki Scientist.
But then who is the 28th Ootsutsuki Scientist ? Well, if you read the Royal Blood theory and use the 666 Satan plotline, then I believe the 28th scientist was the leader of them all, Orochimaru.
The only question that remains in spite of my explanation is why did Orochimaru fall under MT ? My reasoning would be that :-
1) He already knew everything and knew that his end goal would be reached regardless.
2) He tried to stay neutral to prevent standing out and try to catch his enemies off-guard (Part 2 time-skip).
3) I think he just pretended to be caught under Mugen Tsukuyomi.
Orochimaru is tired and annoyed from pretending so long. Kabuto seems to cower in fear from the Demon's wrath. Lol
Hello, RT; Initially I wanted your thoughts on these theories of mine but later on I just forgot to say it. After reading a few of your theories, I decided to know your thoughts on this.
The basis of this theory is the question : Why were the Edo Hokages immune to Mugen Tsukuyomi ? There were two answers to solve this question, but imo neither of them worked according to the manga.
White Zetsu Bodies : According to this one, the Edo Hokages had White Zetsu bodies and were immune to MT because MT was never designed to turn White Zetsus into White Zetsus. Meaning those who have White Zetsu bodies are immune to MT. But the problem that rises here is that Orochimaru was using a White Zetsu body but still fell under MT.
Dead People : According to this one, since Edos are immune to MT because they are dead. But there is no valid explanation to this because
(A) Edos can fall under genjutsu and as such fall under MT as well (Edo Itachi fell under Kabuto's Genjutsu).
(B) Edos have Life Force (Chakra, Souls) and since Shinju absorbs chakra, they fall under MT as well.
My answer to this was related to the Reaper Death Spirit : Part-1:
It’s an interesting question although it’s one that I don’t think there is necessarily a satisfactory answer to. That said it does sort of tie into what I’ve been heading towards over the last couple of posts so I’ll attempt to address it. This being a thread devoted to the Demon, or at least the idea that there is some kind of Demon at work behind the ills in the Narutoverse, I’ll focus on the “Demon” answer to that question rather than engage with all of the various other theories.
Before I get started, I like your idea about the Hokage’s somehow becoming immune by virtue of residing in the Reaper Death Seal’s stomach. I don’t agree with it but it’s as good an explanation as any.
Second of all I should make it clear that there are a lot of explanations out there that attempt to answer the same question with the same conventional responses. Every explanation has its merits and its flaws. I am wary of engaging any protracted debate on the subject because I have seen every thread that has attempted to give a definitive answer to the problem get caught up in the same circular debates. I do not hold my theory above any other (it has plenty of flaws of its own).
Third, in answering this question I’m going to have to play my hand with some of the ideas I’ve been holding back. Some people hate to read spoilers, some people love them… I tend to enjoy developing theories to explain what’s going on and anticipate what’s happening next. I don’t want to ruin the surprise for anyone reading this or engaging in debate. So anyone reading this that does mind engaging in speculation should turn back now.
Hamura’s Curse
The title of this part of the theory is ambiguous. It can be read in one of two ways. The theory goes that Hamura will either end up as the final villain… the one who created the Cursed Seal … or Hamura will end up being revealed to be the victim of it. I am not sure exactly which way Kishi will take the Manga but I am pretty confidant that Kishi intends to develop this question in Part 3 whenever he gets round to it. There is probably a lot of work Kishi needs to complete before its ready for consumption – he more than deserves a break if he needs or wants one as well. Spring or August seem the likeliest timeframes for Naruto’s return depending on what you read.
In the meantime it’s now the perfect time to write theories about Naruto since there is no threat of a new chapter coming out and ruining perfectly good ideas from amateurs like myself. I’ve been right about a lot of big questions but I’ve also been wrong on some of them as well. In this vacuum, I can confidently put out ideas, sure in the knowledge that Kishi isn’t going to trample on my thread. Take everything you read with a pinch of salt … these are just ideas that I’m developing but I think I’ve stumbled on a couple of developments that could be incredibly important in the future development of the Manga… it just takes a lot of explaining as to why.
One final warning, this section of the theory is built on the ideas already developed in this thread and some spoilers I’ve read online about what happens in The Last. I am trying to put together the pieces in this section but I cannot vouch for the reliability of the material I’m basing these ideas off of – I may change my mind on a lot of points if and when the movie ever gets released where I live (I am not a Japanese speaker and Naruto doesn’t really get distributed where I live so that could take forever).
Spoiler Warnings out of the way … this section will attempt to establish a connection between Kinjutsu (like Edo Tensei, the Cursed Seal...), Orochimaru and Hamura. What do these three things have in common? Well that’s what takes some explaining.
Kinjutsu
A lot of techniques are named after the Demon (like Haku’s Demonic Mirroring Ice Crystals, Zabuza’s Demon Shroud, Tayuya’s Demonic Flute…the list goes on and on). I’m not going to try and explain all Kinjutsu but there are two forms of it which stand out as regards the Demon.
Kinjutsu are the forbidden techniques. These techniques are mostly forbidden because they are associated with some kind of sacrifice. Sometimes the sacrifice is personal. Naruto’s Rasenshuriken was at one point considered Kinjutsu, partly because of how destructive it was but mostly because it would have long term effects on Naruto’s body according to Tsunade’s medical analysis:
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Other techniques are forbidden because they are out and out evil. Most if not all techniques can be used for evil purposes in the wrong hands but some techniques can only be used for evil no matter who uses them. These techniques rely on sacrifice of another and are taboo within the Ninja World.
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Kishi does not overemphasize the punishments for using such taboo techniques but in real life it used to be considered taboo to use weapons that gave an unfair advantage like for instance guns and no quarter was/is given in most conflicts to this day to those captured who served as snipers, submariners… Japan is particulalry notorious for its honour codes during battle. Surrender was considered dishonourable during WW2 by Japanese soldiers, who felt duty bound to relieve those who did surrender of their shame (beheading any unfortunate enough to seek mercy or putting them through slave labour). Honour is a peculiar notion during a fight to the death and those who win rarely do so by playing fair.
In the Ninja world there is no more taboo technique than Edo Tensei. Not only does it disturb the peace of those who have passed away but it also demands a living sacrifice in order to activate it. On top of that it gets those unfortunate enough to be summoned to do all the dirty work.
The technique is almost unstoppable since the Edo cannot be killed after it has already died. For Kabuto the one drawback of the technique is that it can be so effective that it garners unwanted attention (though Tobi’s reaction suggests he thinks Kabuto is being disingenuous).
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How is it that Edo Tensei is able to work? If the Soul of the Deceased simply overwrote the body of the sacrifice then you might expect that the Edo would be limited to what the Sacrifice’s body could achieve. However that does not appear to be the case since no matter how badly an Edo is wounded it almost immediately recovers.
How is it that an Edo Tensie is able to mold Chakra? Techniques that have exhausted the most powerful of ninja appear to be as nothing to an Edo. Nagato pushed himself to the limit when he first performed Chibaku Tensei all those years ago and now Madara seems to be able to pull meteors out of the sky like they were the pebbles he used to skim over the river as a child. God powers, bijuu chakra and Hashirama cells go some way to explaining why Edo seem to have unlimited chakra supply but there is no easy answer for this … yet.
I tend to think that Edos do not mold chakra at all (or at least not in the traditional sense) and that their power must come from outside sources. Edo cannot use powers beyond the realms of what they used when alive but there appears to be none of the drawbacks that the living need to endure in order to pull off the most spectacular techniques. It is supposed to take time to recover chakra and Edos do not appear to take any breathers. You do not see Edo Madara / Nagato or Itachi taking pause after they use techniques that used to exhaust them …like you would see Tsunade take after keeping everyone alive in Konoha during Pain’s attack or Kakashi after he’s used his Sharingan one too many times:
Tsunade eating
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Kakashi laid up
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In order to mold chakra you need to be alive. In many regards I see Chakra as another way of saying life force. When a technique uses too much chakra it often carries the price of sacrificing one’s life. When a technique demands a sacrifice (like one’s life) in order to perform then it is often labeled a form of Tensei Ninjutsu which translates as a Life Transfer Technique. Pain uses one when he brings back the dead after his invasion and Chiyo uses another in order to revive Gaara following the removal of Shukaku for the first time:
Tensei (bottom right corner)
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Pain
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Edos do not mold chakra in the traditional sense … they do not appear to eat, sleep or breathe in the same way that living Ninja need to in order to use their techniques – they lack physical stamina or more to the point they do not need it
Traditional Method
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This begs the question, if they don’t use chakra then what do they use. I’ll come back to this shortly.
Why then are Edo not affected by Mugen Tsukuyomi? This is a question that Tobirama, the inventor of Edo Tensei asks himself when he sees the effect of MT on everybody else:
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My take on MT is that it does not just confuse the senses like simple Genjutsu or Tsukuyomi. Instead it is wrapped up in a technique designed to steal life force. The Edo Hokage are not susceptible to MT nor do they have anthing that the Shinju want.
Breaking this down, why wouldn’t the Hokage be susceptible to the peculiar genjutsu of the Sharinnegan. The Sharinnegan is able to offer a dream world that is irresistible to the living. The Edo Hokage however are not living. They are not ruled by desires or whims. They have simply been summoned from the afterlife to perform a task. Madara gets no joy from battle as an Edo, he has to wait until he can revive himself before he is able to enjoy the exhilaration of war:
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Most genjutsu does not work on Edo, not because their senses can’t be fooled but because Edos feel no pain, cannot be threatened and have no desires (though they may have plots like Madara did).
The second point about MT is that it is designed for the sole purpose of stealing Life Force. The Edos don’t have any life force to steal because they are … well… dead.
Stealing Life Force
E.g.1
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E.g.2
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E.g.3
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A third point to keep in mind is that MT does not function in the same way as simple Genjutsu or even Tsukuyomi. MT is different from the simple Sharingan genjutsu in that it doesn’t require line of sight. You can avoid being caught in simple Tsukuyomi by averting your gaze, staring at the opponents feet (like Guy) or attacking from behind (like the Sand):
Guy
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Chiyo
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The Sharingan can emit light but the Sharinnegan takes this to a whole new level in projecting itself from the Moon:
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The light of the Sharinnegan can turn Night into Day:
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This Light cannot be blocked by conventional methods. Even those indoors are affected:
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The Moonlight of the Sharinnegan can only be blocked by another Sharinnegan. Sasuke uses his Susanoo to provide cover for Team 7:
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MT is perhaps the ultimate Kinjutsu in that it serves as a doomsday weapon by feeding off the lifeforce of the living. Like many kinjutsu it is not bound by natural laws. It is effectively plot no jutsu to spell impending disaster for the heros to avert but it does follow a sort of logic in how it operates.
Orochimaru's Power
I’m generally of the opinion that Edos do not have any lifeforce or chakra. What then do they use? They are able to use all of the techniques that they had when alive. What power are they using?
I suspect that the Edo Army get their energy from the Demon rather than from the life force which powers the techniques of the living. If there were such a power then I would expect it to be the antithesis of Life Force. This is effectively how I would characterize the negative version of Hashirama’s Sage Mode:
Hashirama’s Sage Mode
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The Negative Version of Hashirama’s technique… Hidan’s Cursed Sage Mode
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Instead of giving birth to new life like Hashirama’s technique does, this technique revels in sacrifice and death:
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I think that the same demon power that made Hidan able to recover from any wound (Jashin’s power) might also be the source of unlimited power for the Edo Army – this power is not Life Force but its reverse. This is never fully explained since chakra should be chakra but there are several mentions of “Orochimaru’s Power” at play in harnessing the Edo Undead Army…
First, when Kimimaro is resurrected the first thing he notices is the power of his old master flowing through him:
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Second, Kabuto’s perfection of Edo Tensei is built on Orochimaru’s power which he takes from Anko
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Third when this power is deployed with Zabuza it appears to unlock his Demon Shroud:
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If Chakra were like a currency then Orochimaru appears to be sitting on the mother load. His personal dimension is filled with a writhing sea of Chakra more akin to Scrooge McDuck’s Money Bin.
If you consider what happens to everybody caught up in MT after they are digested (they are turned into white blobs of chakra)
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… and then you consider that Orochimaru's own personal dimension where he conducts his transmigration ritual (the technique that has allowed Indra and Asura’s spirits to survive through the generations) has a sea of this white material
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Then I think it might be possible that all of the Edo Undead Army’s seemingly unlimited energy might have been coming from the Demon himself.
Demonic Statues(?)
All of this brings me to explaining the original title. I’ve suspected for a while now that Orochimaru might have had something to do with the death of Hagoromo but up until recently I haven’t had any kind of proof.
I base the idea on Gedo Mazo. The Gedo Mazo is essentially what Orochimaru has always sought after. He has never shown any particular desire for the statue but all of his ambitions seem to revolve around the acquisition of an Empty Vessel that he can take control of in order to become the Ultimate Being.
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The “Vessels” that Orochimaru showed greatest interest in were Kimimaro and Sasuke. Unfortunately for Orochimaru Kimimaro did not work out since he he had some unspecified disease that was breaking down his body:
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Kimimaro would have been Orochimaru’s first choice were it not for his disease. It is also worth noting that Orochimaru seems to have been well aware of Kimimaro’s heritage long before there was ever any mention of Kaguya in the Manga (Kimimaro belonged to the Kaguya Clan and inherited the most perfect body with many techniques … see the above posts for more details).
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… but what if there had been earlier attempts to attain the perfect body… what if Hagoromo were one of them?
Hagoromo is immortal but he left his body to move to another plane of existence. Tobi told us how the Sage Sealed his body into the moon so that he would not lose control of the Juubi’s Chakra:
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Madara backs up this version of events when he details how he had been able to summon the Empty Shell of the Gedo Mazo from the Moon with his newly awoken Rinnegan (note that this Statue is male while one might expect it to have been female if the Gedo Mazo were indeed Kaguya’s empty shell)
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Maybe Hagoromo lost control of the Juubi’s Chakra that was sealed inside him because of old age. That would seem like a reasonable explanation except that Naruto The Last has introduced what appears to be a Second Demonic Statue of the Outer Path. None of the Spoiler threads about the movie that I’ve read have identified it as such but during the film Toneri summons it to battle Kurama, who gets beaten up by it until Naruto is able to defeat Toneri. This is the Spoiler image of the statue that was leaked before the movie even came out:
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How can I tell that this Statue was / is Hamura’s body? Well some of the new material released since the Manga finished provides an image of Hamura from when he was very old… compare this older face with the face from the statue above:
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Full Page
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Just as Hagoromo’s spirit was separated from his body and moved to another plane of existence so do I think that Hamura was separated from his body…
Hagoromo’s spirit
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Hagormo’s Body (Note how the statue has a beard corresponding to Hagoromo’s as well as 9 eyes in the same way that Hagormo split the Juubi’s chakra into 9 Bijuu)
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Hamura’s Spirit (?) + RDS Cursed Seal Hand:
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The Spirit of the Reaper Death Seal could pass for a Cursed Seal Mode stage one version of spirit Hamura. How Hamura ended up trapped inside an Uzmaki Mask would make for an interesting tale for Kishi to weave in Part 3.
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The Ootsutsuki appear to have failed in their efforts to maintain the seal on the Demon (keeping Kaguya locked up in the Moon). The Horned White Skinned Tribe of the Ootsutsuki seem to have met their match at some point. I wonder whether it was in somebody who has built an army of Horned Dark Skinned Ninja … Orochimaru’s experiments:
Ootsutsuki Tribe
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Orochimaru’s Army
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Orochimaru ‘s experiments (?) on Juugo’s Clan
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If you’re wondering like me why Toneri would be unaware of what had actually happened to his tribe then the explanation would be that he was born blind and wouldn’t necessarily know what befell his kinsmen – he was just left abandoned. (I can’t say for certain since I haven’t seen the movie yet …but when would that ever stop me coming up with ideas).
Orochimaru’s Cursed Seal could date back all the way to the Fruit of the Shinju. The Cursed Seal goes by another name in the Manga, the Devil’s Fruit:
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Orochimaru’s mission from the start has been to find a suitable body absent any of the spirit that would come with taking over somebody else’s body. Essentially Orochimaru wants to summon himself into a fresh young body. This is the meaning of the symbol on the Sound Five – the Yin and Yang Symbol bereft of any Yin. This is the Body (Yang) minus any of the spirit that would usually accompany it:
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Something needs a vessel and that something seems to have been taking over bodies and discarding them for generations because they could not live up to his ultimate ambition… becoming the Ultimate Being… I suspect that that somebody is Orochimaru and that his undivided consciousness looks something like this:
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Kimimaro worshipped Orochimaru as a deity. Perhaps he was one and perhaps he was the same one that Hidan prayed to:
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I imagine that Black Zetsu’s failed attempt to open up a new dimension was designed to free that something. Most of his power might simply be waiting on the other side:
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In the meantime that something has been masquerading as a human complete with all the limitations of an imperfect body:
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This is all speculation on my part. I could be wrong about all or some of it. I imagine I’ll probably change my mind about some things when I actually get to see The Last.
I must say that RDS being Kaguya is outdated. But after reading your theories, I think the RDS explanation works if the RDS is Hamura or an Ootsutsuki . It goes like this :-
I think Mugen Tsukuyomi was actually created by a group of 28 Ootsutsukis (Scientists) who wanted to create the Shinju's Fruit (Make all chakra one) and used Kaguya as a test subject. They sacrificed themselves for this purpose. Their souls would become trapped in the masks of the Uzumaki Shrine while their bodies would become White Zetsus.
As these Ootsutsukis (Scientists) sacrificed themselves to create Mugen Tsukuyomi, it's common sense that they would be immune to Mugen Tsukuyomi's effects. The Edo Hokages's immunity to MT comes from the RDS, a fallen Ootsutsuki Scientist.
But then who is the 28th Ootsutsuki Scientist ? Well, if you read the Royal Blood theory and use the 666 Satan plotline, then I believe the 28th scientist was the leader of them all, Orochimaru.
The only question that remains in spite of my explanation is why did Orochimaru fall under MT ? My reasoning would be that :-
1) He already knew everything and knew that his end goal would be reached regardless.
2) He tried to stay neutral to prevent standing out and try to catch his enemies off-guard (Part 2 time-skip).
3) I think he just pretended to be caught under Mugen Tsukuyomi.
Orochimaru is tired and annoyed from pretending so long. Kabuto seems to cower in fear from the Demon's wrath. Lol
It’s definitely the sort of outcome I expect by the end of Part 3 but I don’t know whether Naruto will follow 666 Satan that closely at least in terms of having the Ootsutsuki emerge as a team of scientists (though maybe). At least I hope Kishi will shake up the story a bit so that they don’t parallel each other too closely (although I am kind of keen on Orochimaru being the final villain).
You can see how 666 Satan / O Parts Hunter has influenced Naruto in lots of areas. My favourite crossover, that I've been looking for an excuse to post on (since it probably doesn't justify a new thread), is about the transition of certain characters from 666 into Hiruzen and Kakashi. You can see how certain elements are taken from 666 and inserted into Naruto in whole or in part. Naruto is still a separate and in my opinion superior Manga but the parallels are interesting. I'm saving up some material for where I think the Manga will be going next but here are some examples of how Naruto borrows parts of 666 and for the most part improves on them...
Crossover
It’s kind of hard to believe but the Third Hokage was originally envisioned as a wolf:
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This wolf might not seem important but I think it highlights the origins of the development of another character…Kakashi. The wolf was more or less the same charcter that Seishi Kishimoto used as the teacher of 666’s hero Jio Freed. That wolf was called Zero:
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Masashi, probably worried that he was following the course of his brother’s work too much, changed the Third Hokage from the wolf into a hedgehog sort of looking character before finally settling on the Hiruzen we all appreciate today:
Mark II Hiruzen … (Hedgehog Hair)
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Kishi didn’t throw away the idea of this wolf based character. Instead he morphed the wolf into Kakashi – using Zero as his template. Note how Kakashi has a scar where Zero has his marking:
Zero
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Kakashi’s Iconic Scar
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Kakashi also gets some of his character from Zero… for instance his tendency to overexert himself:
Zero
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Kakashi (it tends to be funnier when he does it):
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Kakashi’s face, hair, body, stance and attitude seem to come from another of Seishi Kishimoto’s characters called Kirin (at one point he even conducts a variation on the Bell Test). If the name Kirin is familiar then that’s because it should be… it’s the name of Sasuke’s variation on Kakashi’s signature move Chidori. Here Kakashi practically merges Zero (the wolf from 666) with Kirin (the variation on his own Chidori):
Kirin
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Kishi doesn’t worry too much about his characters ripping off his brother’s designs… I think that Kishi might even make a joke of it with his brother. Their work is so similar that it makes me think they collaborate extensively on each other’s work without taking credit for it. As Twin’s they probably don’t worry too much about who came up with what. … Kakashi is even known as the Copy Ninja:
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Kakashi is also sometimes mistaken for the White Fang (his father):
Kakashi’s father
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The White Fang is probably another tribute to Zero who sends Jio Freed on his way telling him he had earnt his Fang
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These kinds of parallels happen all over the place. The influence of 666 Satan can be felt all thoughout Naruto and is even shaping the New Era Project…
For instance, early on Naruto adopts certain poses that 666 Characters employ:
Naruto Fox Pose / Blast
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Jio Wolf Pose / Blast
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Naruto sat with Scroll in Mouth
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Kirin sat with Gourd in Mouth
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Gaara’s new look for after the timeskip seems to have been heavily influenced by Kirin’s Pickle Jar…
Gaara
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Kirin
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Itachi’s memorable message for Sasuke is more or less the same as the message Zero leaves Jio … though it’s slightly more menacing coming from Itachi:
Itachi
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Zero
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The worst plagiarism though for me is that even Naruto’s precious gift from Hinata in the Last appears to be a hand me down from Jio Freed…
Naruto
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Jio Freed
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I wonder if Kishi and his twin ever swap places in the office and let each other take over the other's work.
I will try to prove Rabbit Teth's assumption that the Gedo Mazou is Hagoromo's body. It all starts with this theory :
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Before, you say that I am trying to rekindle the Sojobo conspiracy, Frankly I am not doing so. Lol
Take two points in mind.
1) The Gedo Mazou is Hagoromo's body.
2) Remove Sojobo and Kaguya and make Hagoromo the Origin point of the Rinnegan's Lineage.
It all makes sense then. Let me explain.
Hagoromo, the Ultimate Being on his Death was divided into three parts.
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His Body, the Gedo Mazou.
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Which was sealed into the Moon.
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His Spirit which went to the Pure, Spirit Land.
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His Eyes, The Rinnegan.
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Well what happened to it ? Was it destroyed ? Was it Sealed ? Or did someone transplant it into himself ?
We see Black Zetsu make a shady alliance with Indra.
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And suddenly Indra has Spiral eyes ? Hagoromo's Rinnegan ?
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On top of that Hagoromo's Rinnegan is the only thing able to summon the Gedo Mazou.
Hagoromo's Rinnegan being used by Madara.
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Gedo Mazou Being summoned.
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Madara made a wrong assumption when he said that Obito could summon Gedo Mazou without Hagoromo's Rinnegan.
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Obito had to take Hagoromo's Rinnegan for that specific purpose.
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The Fake Edo Rinnegan can't summon the Gedo Mazou either.
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Why does this happen ?
It's because, The Eyes, The Spirit and The Body in the end must become one to re-create the Ultimate Being, i.e; Hagoromo.
The Eyes of Hagoromo, The Rinnegan summons the Body of Hagoromo, The Gedo Mazou in order to become complete.
I suspect that the Spirit of Hagoromo can also summon the Gedo Mazou.
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Even though Hagoromo's Rinnegan is Fake like Edo Madara's. It's because the Rinnegan is a Physical, not a Spiritual object.
The assumption by Black Zetsu that Madara awakened the Rinnegan was actually a lie.
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In Reality, Hagoromo's Rinnegan was transplanted by someone into Madara.
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Who was this someone ? Well, the top Candidates include :-
Orochimaru, the Scientist. (His experiments in fusing Wood Release with others).
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Or Black Zetsu.
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The Rinnegan is like a Pseudo All-Seeing Eye, as it's power came from the Shinju's fruit, the origin of Chakra.
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Real All-Seeing Eye in NarutoVerse.
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It's also the reason why Edo Madara's Rinnegan shattered as Hagoromo's eyes can't be duplicated by Rinne Tensei.
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Ashura and Indra were combined only to create a Psuedo Hagoromo Body with a Conscience, unlike the Gedo Mazou. This Psuedo Hagoromo body will be compatible with Hagoromo's Rinnegan.
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Obito had a hard time controlling the Rinnegan because he had only Ashura Chakra, no Indra Chakra.
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Nagato also had a hard time controlling Hagoromo's Rinnegan until he was given power by the Gedo Mazou, Hagoromo's body.
Gedo Mazou Released.
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Nagato Impaled.
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The only thing left for the creation of the Ultimate Being is a Spirit. Madara, the Pseudo Hagoromo body only needed a Spirit which had the God Tree's essence.
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The Spirit in question was Kaguya.
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But the main question that rises here is was the Ultimate Body intended for Kaguya ?
