Thats not the way it works buddy Tsunade doesn't get a free pass, its not who made the monster its who fail to protect others from the monster, She's hokage its her job to protect the village and she fail at it.
Stupid popular arguments: Tsunade is a terrible hokage because Konoha was destroyed
- Thread starter Sennin of Logic
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Rainbow Dash
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If it were any other hokage except Hashirama everyone would be dead. Tsunade saved the majority of the villagers. That is a fact.
Even without danzo's involvement, Nagato/Pein would have still ended up the same way, You really believe that Madara had no plans set up when he asked obito to watch him?. You think madara would let someone who he left his eyes to, to make their own decisions and roam freely?.
Hell even obito stated that nagato would come to his way of thinking sooner or later. All Danzo did that day was push madara's plans forwards slightly. One way or another it would have happened.
Hiruzen's reign didn't set up the conditions since the conditions for Nagato were already Pre-planned by Madara/Obito before Danzo's involvement.
Madara/Obito created Nagato/Pein, Danzo simply played a part in it, It was Madara that gave this "monster" it's strength and it was Obito who manipulated him to pursue the tailed beasts in the first place, That ultimately lead him to Konoha for the fox and most likely taught him to controll this strength.
The destruction of the leaf is tsunades failure, She was the hokage at the time, She is it's protector.
Thundercles
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Failed argument indeed. Tsunade at least saved the villagers. She would t have stood a chance against Pain.
Sennin of Logic
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She doesn't get a free pass. She indeed failed to completely protect the village. However, her failure pales compared to Hiruzen, who's responsible for creating many of the bad situations in konoha. It's Tsunade's job to protect the village and she fails? Conversely, it was also Hiruzen's job as well and he created not 1 but 3 events that threatened konoha whereas Tsunade has only created 1 in Sasuke. Doing the opposite effect of your job is far worse than not completing it. Hiruzen's failure was far worse, that's not even debatable.
Read my reply to the guy above. Also, there has never, ever been an indication that Madara had a plan of any sort. He just said, "Hey Obito, there's a kid with my eyes, use him." Obito just said to Nagato what he believed, not what he preordained. Heck, if we go by how the anime is heading, Danzo was Obito's plan. Hiruzen's incompetence could not have been a better ally for Madara. His bad leadership was the plan.
Hashirama vs Madara first fight, Hashi let Mada live.
Mada turned bad, then gets old, gives his Rinnegan to Nagato.
Nagato controls Pain.
Sooo 1st hokage fault for not killing Madara righttt
Am I getting the hang of this blame game, Naruto X man?
Tsunade has reigned as hokage for what?, 3/4 Years?, Hiruzen reigned for 40-50 years, So it's hardly surprising he made more mistakes.
The indication was that he planned for Nagato revive him, So there was a plan. Unless he expected obito to go up to nagato at some point like "Yo, Wanna die so some man you never knew can come back to life" and that Nagato/akatsuki gathering the bijuu and madara wanting to become the juubi's host is all mere coincidence.
You can blame who ever you want, at the end of the day, Tsunade was konoha's protector and it got destroyed while being under her protection.
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I am surprised at the lunacy on this thread. Tsunade put Elders and Danzo in their place; the way it always should have been. She actually tried to mingle with her fellow ninjas, understanding their plight, and working out better strategies. Hizuren? He offered Nej's father's head as compensation, let the clan segregation go on, let Danzo walk scoot free, aided in the massacre of a Founding Clan who had every right to take over the village - as let's face it, it was theirs to begin with as they were the founding fathers. Never worked out a reconciliation by stopping the surveillance of a 'Founding Clan' - the actual fathers of the village - what is left in his slide of despicable blunders? The man was a monster. His fanboys should get over it.
I would say the same for the rest of them. Nothing but Tobirama's shadows; the vestiges of his paranoia, and ever-lingering fear and inferiority complex in the face of Uchiha Clan. A small man birthed small people like Danzo and Hizuren. And look at Minato, sealed a Bijuu within a new born to balance out the Bijuu power. Great father.
I would say the same for the rest of them. Nothing but Tobirama's shadows; the vestiges of his paranoia, and ever-lingering fear and inferiority complex in the face of Uchiha Clan. A small man birthed small people like Danzo and Hizuren. And look at Minato, sealed a Bijuu within a new born to balance out the Bijuu power. Great father.
Sennin of Logic
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Hashi didn't "let Madara live." Hashirama gave Madara what should have been a fatal blow, and while the fact that he couldn't tell Madara was alive did cause some problems in the future, he defended the village from the threat of Madara throughout his reign and stopped an immediate threat. Hashirama's involvement with Nagato is to indirect to actually blame him for Pain, while Hiruzen's policies actually spawned Pain.
You're not even close to grasping the "blame game." Your parody is little more than putting words into my mouth.
To stop a war. Offering one life is far far greater than going to war. Even so, it's a shinobi's job to give up their lives for the saftey of the village
Yes he gave danzo far to much freedom.
They had no right to go against the village in a manner than would put the lives of every villager and the village it's self and even the country in danger.
Again it was the life of a single clan vs the safety of a country. Hard decision but one that had to be made.
Made me lol.
What would you have him do?. Let the kyuubi die along with kushina?. Which would only cause more problems to the leaf.
Sennin of Logic
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Hashi didn't "let Madara live." Hashirama gave Madara what should have been a fatal blow, and while the fact that he couldn't tell Madara was alive did cause some problems in the future, he defended the village from the threat of Madara throughout his reign and stopped an immediate threat. Hashirama's involvement with Nagato is to indirect to actually blame him for Pain, while Hiruzen's policies actually spawned Pain.
You're not even close to grasping the "blame game." Your parody is little more than putting words into my mouth.
No, my logic does not make Minato and Tsunade guilty of blame when it comes to Obito and Madara. I have no idea how you could twist it to say that.
Hiruzen didn't have to know what Madara was up to. His policies just sucked and would obviously spawn powerful enemies. And while we're on the subject of failing to protect the village is the ultimate failure, what exactly did Hiruzen do about the Akatsuki during his long reign? It wasn't until Tsunade was in charge that they were actually being taken care of.
Not much was known of the akatsuki during hiruzen's reign, it was only after he died they started to become public knowledge. Also jiraiya said they weren't a major problem during that time
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Sennin of Logic
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Uh huh. So having his former pupil whom he knows is evil in their and on top of that, having Itachi as a spy to give intel about their objectives wasn't enough for him to maybe consider them a threat? Not to mention the fact that they're all S-ranked criminals.
What? the akatsuki was peacemakers then mercs during hiruzen-minato-hiruzen reign you can't do anything about a mercenary groups since they're just for hire and AFTER hurizen death the akatsuki started collecting tailed beasts so if blame is to be casted on anyone thats on tsunade.
TrollingSage
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Atleast Tsunade's failure to protect the village wasn't a result of her lack of resolve and conviction. Hiruzen was too much of a ***** to deal with Danzo and even Oro, despite the fact that Oro threatened to come back and have his revenge on the village.
Hashirama thought he had killed Madara, he didnt let him go intentionally like Hiruzen did to Oro.
Besides aside from maybe Hashirama and Minato, none of the other Kages can prevent Nagato from flying over the village and nuking it with chou shinra tensei .
Jiraiya said a not major threat, Even he was just learning about the akatsuki and didn't know of their t rue goals. Also even if hiruzen knew oro was part of the akatsuki, that alone doesn't give him reason to "Deal" with an almost Unknown organization that has done very little other than some espionage. At the time they posed no threat to the village.
Sennin of Logic
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Again, Itachi! Didn't Hiruzen specifically send Itachi to infiltrate the Akatsuki's ranks? He knew who they were and what they wanted but didn't deal with them.