Stupid popular arguments: Tsunade is a terrible hokage because Konoha was destroyed

[-ahhimane-]

Dunno how this is relevant, but good deal of kages would not stand a chance against current Sasuke. Only Hashirama can beat him in 1 vs 1.

what about tobirama's hiraishingiri? Tobirama is quick when it comes to killing Uchihas Lol

 

[Sennin of Logic]

It's Hiruzen's fault , that as u say " Pein-nagato was created " But Is tsunade 's fault why they destroy Konoha ::: Hiruzen at least would have fought them ... and preventing them to destroy Konoha... and Tsunade strategy was so pathetic ... SHe waited till PEin used their techs. , killed half of shinobis , destroy Konoha, and after that she was planning for attacking

Hiruzen would have attacked Pein , in the first time he saw them ... as for who would win /lose is another matter ... in the end , Tsunade didn't won .. there were so many dead people... her actions were useless

This is a more well thought out argument as to why Tsunade is a bad hokage. I wouldn't mind if something like this is what everybody said, but unfortunately, it's not. However, look at the bottom of my post for my take on how it would go if Hiruzen fought Pain head on.

I'm confused when you say "What, When the old hag said so?" These characters aren't real. You act like they actually have thoughts of their own and kishimoto is just watching them from a distance writing what he sees. Get real kid, this is a story written by kishimoto, if he puts in Tsunade is partially responsible for the destruction of konoha, she's partially responsible. You should really learn to differentiate from fiction and reality.

Spoiler

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Yes, but Kishimoto invented the elders as characters who had the wrong views. By your logic, Danzo's views should be considered Kishimoto's, which I'm fairly certain is not the case.

How many more times mist this be said?

Apparently a lot of times since people keep using the same argument over and over again.

I see what your saying but no hiruzen would have done better than tsunade to defend konoha against pain. Also her healing did jack squat if you consider the fact that pain brought everyone back to life via rinne tensei it kind of voids what she did but if he did not then what she did would have been great, currently she did an OK job of it. Let's not also forget that if it were any other hokage they would have tackled pain head on but tsunade did not she stayed waaaay back and for good reason pein is every strong.

Another well thought out one.

Alright, let's analyze what would happen if Hiruzen defended konoha in his own style. He would fight Pain head on. Trouble is, Hiruzen would be absolutely destroyed if that were to happen. Hiruzen's greatest strength as far as I can gather, is ninjutsu diversity and Enma. Preta path makes the majority of Hiruzen's known ninjutsu useless while Deva Path could rebel Enma and flatten him considering he has no known counter to Deva Path. He might be able to defend against being blown away by sticking Enma in the ground, but his body would be crushed.


The end result would be Hiruzen's death and the village would be completely free for Pain to slaughter, and since there's no Tsunade's healing, the death toll is actually higher with Hiruzen than with Tsunade.

 

[The Sach]

I want to address this issue pointwise, hence prepare yourself for long valley.

The common slogan for Tsunade haters is "Tsunade failed to protect the village and let it get destroyed and had to rely on Naruto." Riiiiiight. You clearly haven't thought it through if you attribute that as why Tsunade is a bad hokage. Let me demonstrate why.
Who destroyed the village on Tsunade's watch? It was Pain. Who caused Nagato to become Pain? It was Danzo. Who let Danzo do as he pleased? It was Hiruzen.
Tsunade inherited the problem of Pain from Hiruzen, so it can't truly be called her fault.
In contrast to Hiruzen, Tsunade actually had the brains to keep Danzo in check.

Tsunade never had Danzo under her check, Danzo actually killed the frog who was supposed to transmit the message to Naruto. Tsunade never tried to control Danzo, so this point is invalid.

When Hiruzen was in charge, Danzo roamed free, which led to the creation of 3 villains. (Pain, Konan, and Kabuto) When Tsunade was in charge, whenever she suspected of Danzo trying something, she'd put him under surveillance and kept a short leash on him. She even stood up to the elders who came up with such brilliant policies such as the Uchiha massacre.

About the first statement it looks like a childish argument to me. Second one I already proved it wrong, we can't simply deny the fact that Danzo safely killed that frog and caused delay in letting Naruto know about status of Konoha, under her nose. So, I don't see any surveillance here.

The simple fact is that the greatest fault people assign to Tsunade was actually the result of Hiruzen's blunder. Does anyone here actually think Hiruzen could last 2 seconds against Pain? At least Tsunade managed to save village lives via medical ninjutsu. Hiruzen has no such life-saving capabilities. If Hiruzen were hokage during Pain's invasion, the village would have been much, much worse off.

Danzo wasn't Hiruzen's blunder. Hiruzen can do at least better than many other people who fought against Pain. I agree Tsunade did an excellent work, but that wasn't enough.

I'm not saying the opinion that Tsunade's a bad hokage is stupid, but the argument commonly used is. An opinion is an opinion, but this argument shows very little thought and just comes across as lazy.

She failed, I am not talking about Tsunade being bad or good hokage, as it is matter of opinion at the end of the day, but we can't deny the 'fact' that she failed to protect Konoha when it was in trouble despite the fact that she was 'one of the three legendary sannins'.

 

[Murasame]

what about tobirama's hiraishingiri? Tobirama is quick when it comes to killing Uchihas Lol

That's only going to work if they engage in CQC otherwise Sasuke wins but thats for another topic so lets actually stay on topic.

 

[Xāvî1]

Dunno how this is relevant, but good deal of kages would not stand a chance against current Sasuke. Only Hashirama can beat him in 1 vs 1.

Ohnoki, Gaara, Raikage, Mei..Forget the past even the current are strong enough to take on sasuke vs 1.But sasuke no matter how strong he is now even someone like him can't take on the gokages all at once and hope to defeat them. Where as Tendo Pein can take on all five kages at once.

 

[BlacLord™]

People don't realise that a good deal of kages would not stand a chance against Pain in 1 vs 1, not only including Konoha also counting other villages. Tsunade did the best she could; she is primarily a medic.

And yeah Danzo thing was Hiruzen's burden.

This.

Danzo holds part of the responsibility too, putting his own selfish desires before the village's safety.

 

[-Spoiler-]

With this logic:
Who manipulated Pain/Nagato? It was Obito, Who was obito's teacher?, Madara.

How did nagato have the rinnegan in the first place?, Madara.

How did Madara give him the rinnegan?, Because hashirama failed to kill him.

So with this logic it's hashirama's/Madara's fault, Then we could go blaming their parents and go all the way back to the sages mother.

Seriously though, Tsunade was hokage and it's the hokages job to protect the village, Tsunade failed that job no matter who you chose to blame.

this indeed. Are people really trying to blame it on hiruzen :| when he died 4-5 years before ?
Why don't you ask yourself this why didn't tsunade remove danzo from power? because she couldn't he was a village elder.
it doesn't matter if danzo had messed around with pein or not the village would have still been attack by the akatsuki, itachi was the one that had prevent it for so long and if it was pein that attack it would have been obito and it village would have still been destroyed.

 

[Unbiased]

Oh God. Kishimoto actually makes his characters stay in character. Thus it makes perfect sense for Danzo find a way to blame Tsunade for Konoha's destruction.
Kishimoto said that Tsunade can't die in battle AND is unrivaled in hand to hand combat. We all know Tsunade can be killed even though she's very hard to kill.
Kishimoto said those things. :|

You just lack proof on your argument other than just Danzo's words. Only Hashirama would've been successful in beating Pain, with majority of the Konoha citizens dead.

Tsunade failed. I don't need anymore proof then what the manga states. It's stated by danzo. Not to mention the fact that if Naruto wasn't there Konoha would not exist anymore. Everyone who died would be dead, Tsunade would be dead, etc. She couldn't even defend herself and despite healing everyone, the village was still destroyed. She had a bad strategy, terrible leadership, and literally watched the Deva Path destroy the entire village. Literally sat there and looked at him as he destroyed the village. Manga states she failed, village got destroyed, Naruto is the only reason the village was saved, Tsunade did next to nothing.

 

[scorezor]

so... some crybaby reported my last post on this thread , because ... ? such a stupid guy lol... go cry to your mama kiddo.

 

[Joon]

I want to address this issue pointwise, hence prepare yourself for long valley.

Tsunade never had Danzo under her check, Danzo actually killed the frog who was supposed to transmit the message to Naruto. Tsunade never tried to control Danzo, so this point is invalid.


About the first statement it looks like a childish argument to me. Second one I already proved it wrong, we can't simply deny the fact that Danzo safely killed that frog and caused delay in letting Naruto know about status of Konoha, under her nose. So, I don't see any surveillance here.


Danzo wasn't Hiruzen's blunder. Hiruzen can do at least better than many other people who fought against Pain. I agree Tsunade did an excellent work, but that wasn't enough.


She failed, I am not talking about Tsunade being bad or good hokage, as it is matter of opinion at the end of the day, but we can't deny the 'fact' that she failed to protect Konoha when it was in trouble despite the fact that she was 'one of the three legendary sannins'.

.....Then they all failed. Jiraiya, Hurizen, Hashirama, Tobimaru, Kakashi and Tsunade.

 

[dark legion]

A Village is because of its people, not the other way or because of bricks and cement.
Tsunade protected the people hence the village. She's not a terrible Hokage when it comes to saving the people.

and the best & safest way to protect , save them was by killing Pein ... and what she did ? did she saved them ? nooo.. It was Naruto with Nagato ...

 

[thepizzaguy]

I agree with the op. Also people, you must remember if hiruzen were still alive he wouldn't be much help coz he would be too old and weak to do anything (remember what orochimaru did to him) well done stunade for putting your life on the line to save your village

 

[The Sach]

People don't realise that a good deal of kages would not stand a chance against Pain in 1 vs 1, not only including Konoha also counting other villages. Tsunade did the best she could; she is primarily a medic.

And yeah Danzo thing was Hiruzen's burden.

Tsunade did best she could, but she failed is a fact. Good and bad things are passed down to the next generation along with ideologies, if that's the case, then we should say that bijuus are the burden of Kaguya Otsutsuki.:|
Tsunade is 'hokage', she is supposed to know how to deal with something as troublesome as root and Danzo, and keep him under surveillance.:yeah:

.....Then they all failed. Jiraiya, Hurizen, Hashirama, Tobimaru, Kakashi and Tsunade.

Yes at some point of time they all did, and that's what makes them normal shinobis, they make mistakes.

 

[paratise]

Ohnoki, Gaara, Raikage, Mei..Forget the past even the current are strong enough to take on sasuke vs 1.But sasuke no matter how strong he is now even someone like him can't take on the gokages all at once and hope to defeat them. Where as Tendo Pein can take on all five kages at once.

No the kages you mentioned can't stand a chance against Sasuke vs 1 and loses rather easily.
I think Sasuke can take on Gokage but that's a matter of opinion. Also Pain as 6 paths does not stand much chance against Gokage; considering Tsunade has full intel on abilities of 6 paths and can lead kages to a strategy. Nagato is a different matter though.

But these are all opinion and this is not a thread to debate this.

 

[Bantos]

and the best & safest way to protect , save them was by killing Pein ... and what she did ? did she saved them ? nooo.. It was Naruto with Nagato ...

Oh God. If it were any other hokage except Hashirama everyone would be dead. Tsunade saved the majority of the villagers. That is a fact.

 

[-Spoiler-]

I agree with the op. Also people, you must remember if hiruzen were still alive he wouldn't be much help coz he would be too old and weak to do anything (remember what orochimaru did to him) well done stunade for putting your life on the line to save your village

At the end of the day he died but he protect his village twice in two crisis.
When the Nine tails attack Hiruzen pushed him out of the village to minimize damage
When orochimaru attack he stop the edo kages and took orochi's arms so he couldn't perform any jutsu.

 

[Sennin of Logic]

With this logic:
Who manipulated Pain/Nagato? It was Obito, Who was obito's teacher?, Madara.

How did nagato have the rinnegan in the first place?, Madara.

How did Madara give him the rinnegan?, Because hashirama failed to kill him.

So with this logic it's hashirama's/Madara's fault, Then we could go blaming their parents and go all the way back to the sages mother.

Seriously though, Tsunade was hokage and it's the hokages job to protect the village, Tsunade failed that job no matter who you chose to blame.

You're twisting it. Hasihrama's failure to kill Madara enabled him to pull strings. Hiruzen's reign actually set up the conditions for Madara's plans to work. I'm not setting up blame as in the person who enabled for one factor is completely responsible for everything that followed. For instance, I'm not going to blame the sage's sons for the current events because any effect they have is now indirect. For instance, you can't blame Madara's attitude on the elder son since he came to his conclusion after observing the peace that Hashirama set up is not a complete one. Pain is a direct result of Hiruzen's reign.

 

[-ahhimane-]

and the best & safest way to protect , save them was by killing Pein ... and what she did ? did she saved them ? nooo.. It was Naruto with Nagato ...

Killing Pain wasn't important at that moment. Saving the lives of the villagers was more important.
But she still stood against the Pain when she was exhausted to her limits after the destruction of the village. Naruto could sense her amount of chakra she had at that moment and hence advised her to rest.

 

[-Spoiler-]

You're twisting it. Hasihrama's failure to kill Madara enabled him to pull strings. Hiruzen's reign actually set up the conditions for Madara's plans to work. I'm not setting up blame as in the person who enabled for one factor is completely responsible for everything that followed. For instance, I'm not going to blame the sage's sons for the current events because any effect they have is now indirect. For instance, you can't blame Madara's attitude on the elder son since he came to his conclusion after observing the peace that Hashirama set up is not a complete one. Pain is a direct result of Hiruzen's reign.

So let me ask you this if obito had killed nagato earlier and took the eye since he wouldn't join them if yahiko didn't die,
and Obito attack demolishing the village with several tailed beast who's reign would you blame it on then? It seem you rather throw the blame on the previous kages instead of the one who failed to protect the village.

 

[Sennin of Logic]

So let me ask you this if obito had killed nagato earlier and took the eye since he wouldn't join them if yahiko didn't die,
and Obito attack demolishing the village with several tailed beast who's reign would you blame it on then? It seem you rather throw the blame on the previous kages instead of the one who failed to protect the village.

Probably no one's as Obito is a factor outside of the hokage's reign unless you count Hashirama indirectly.


It all comes down to whom you blame for a catastrophe from a monster. Do you blame a hero who didn't have the capabilities to slay the monster, or the hero who created the monster in the first place? I'm pretty sure most would blame the person who created the monster, in this case, Hiruzen should be blames for the actual destruction, in which case, his failure is greater than the one most say makes Tsunade the worst hokage.