SRA Neji vs. VoTE (3-Tomoe) Sasuke

[KidGamer65]

So which is it man? Naruto and Sasuke dodging Raikage and Naruto respectively doesn't apply here as they obviously weren't in disadvantageous positions. We have someone who is >= his opponent in speed (according to you) that doesn't dodge or evade when he was in a disadvantageous position because of the speed of the attack.

Lmao I'm 100% convinced you either can't or are choosing to read my posts incorrectly at this point, cause this is happening way too frequently for it to be a simple accident. :lol :lol

-Bold is IRRELEVANT to the claim being made. Bold is to show that dodging someone doesn't mean you are faster. Nothing more, nothing less. Stop trying to connect two unrelated points to make it seem like my argument is faulty. That claim was made because you think that because Neji strikes faster than Sasuke's raw movement speed, that Sasuke can't dodge. :lol

So you've yet to actually address my point here, that your comparisons are flawed because none of your examples cite a person in a disadvantageous position.

In respect to this vs, you've admitted Sasuke being in a disadvantageous position due to a parry would be bad

We've seen parrying an attack comes easy for Neji. And it would be very absurd if you tell me Neji can't parry a linear punch from Sasuke. Hence why i've been asking since the very beginning for notable striking speed feats from Sasuke to show he'll be able to recover from a parried attack of his with a follow up attack faster than Neji can strike him.

-You've yet to show that he can parry Sasuke's attacks easily. You keep mentioning "linear, linear" as if it will change the fact you don't have an argument based on real feats. Sasuke attacking with a regular strike/punch/kick doesn't prove that Neji can easily parry him. Nonsense in it's purest form.

-You keep asking for striking speed feats when amazingly fast striking speed isn't needed, especially when you've yet to actually support your argument, which is ironic because you are over here asking me to support an argument I don't need to make. :lol

I'm not sure what you were trying to show with the scan of 64 palms on Naruto? Because Neji's stance right there is his stance after completing 64 palms. We clearly see when he was going for the final 32 strikes, he was in a spinning motion?

Lmao. Wow. Read the wiki entry where they break down this jutsu, then read the Manga again and see if it clicks cause it really shouldn't be this difficult to read the Manga. That stance is the stance he takes before the last strike. He spun his body around to land 16 strikes, not the last 32. The manga shows it pretty clearly. So does the anime. :lol

Then it shows him thrust himself at Naruto and the last thing you see is him stepping forward, hence the movement lines below his feet, but I'm going to circle them just so you don't try and deny what's right in front of you.

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Him moving his body like that adds more speed and power to his strikes. That's a fact.

Bold..lol obviously it isn't for fun :lol Hitting someone like that is definitely going to be causing moving them to move backwards...Neji has to continually catch up blindingly fast to their new position.

And clearly the manga doesn't disagree. We see in the link you posted how multiple hits are done in a single panel lol

And if you'd stop and use logic for just a second you'd realize that there's no indication that multiple hits in a single panel=/=All hits landing at the same exact time. Why are you arguing a claim that you literally can't support? It's ridiculous. 64 palms have been and always will be CONSECUTIVE strikes. Them being fast=/=Them all landing at the same damn time.

You've clearly said Sasuke would parry Neji's strikes before.



And i'm not sure what you mean with the rest of the post because Neji clearly removes himself from Hinata's path, escorts her attack in a direction and follows up with a counter attack. (

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Correct me if i'm wrong. But you now seem to agree Parrying is more difficult? So a scan of Sasuke actually parrying an attack should be appropriate?

Lmao. I'm tempted to just copy and paste what I just posted as a response because if you had read that then you'd realize I answered all this right then and there.

-A parry in the sense that I'm referring to is when you ward off an enemy attack with your own attack. No. Dodge. Is. Necessary.

-A parry in the sense you are referring to is where the defender dodges and then guides the enemy attack away. The follow up attack is just that, a follow up attack and irrelevant to actual action of the parry.

I said Sasuke will do the bold. I explained why he, or anyone who can move their fists, can do the bold. I can't make it any simpler than this.

This particular part of this debate started with you asking me to prove parried/dodged attacks will lead to a slight unbalanced state? I did so by showing how characters seem to have stumbled on their footing when their attacks have being dodged or parried because that's simply how motion works. Something you already seem to have known a while ago with the quote of you saying "If Sasuke gets hit like that then it'll be GG..."

No, I asked for proof that MISSED attacks result in a parry because you were saying Neji would dodge Sasuke's attacks and he would stumble. If you meant to say parry, you should've said parry instead of saying dodge because dodging and parrying are obviously not the same things.

- Lee who can use his own speed unlimited never got an upper hand against CE Neji
- lol CE Lee isn't almost as skilled as SRA Neji though. Saying he copied CE Lee's taijutsu doesn't really help here does it?
- Sasuke's movement speed isn't superior to SRA Neji or CE Lee. Sasuke's reactions aren't superior to Neji's.
- Without a doubt. And CE Lee's strength who didn't defeat CE Neji is the same as VoTE Sasuke.

-Against a Neji w/ Gentle Fist. A Lee who doesn't have reaction speed on par with Sasuke.
-When he's using Lee's speed he's obviously faster than Neji. :lol Please don't argue against the Manga.
-Yet overall CE Lee is not as strong as Sasuke, something that has also been addressed.

Perhaps you can help explain what the difference between skill and overall ability is? I'm not understanding exactly what you mean here

-Skill is skill.
-Overall ability is how one does in the actual conflict.

Base Gai is more skilled than Ay III yet Ay III would defeat him because of his physical superiority.

Underlined is actually laughable though. Why won't Neji be able to parry any of Sasuke's strikes?

If you want to continue this argument I suggest you stop asking me to disprove your nonexistent arguments. Where are the feats that let Neji do what you claim he can do? Debates work by you making a claim and then supporting it, not by you making a claim, not supporting it sufficiently or at all and then asking me why you aren't correct.

:lol

As for the rest of the post, i suggest you fully understand the meaning of durability and resilience as they are two different things and Neji moving despite the pain that would have been coursing through his body from having two holes in him is a durability feat.

Lol I'm sorry but this is probably the stupidest thing I've read in your entire posts thus far.

-First you say resilience and durability are different.
-Then you use a resilience feat as a durability feat as if you have any idea what you are talking about.

Neji survived that long because he is resilient. Durability is how much damage you take to begin with. An object ripping through his body with zero effort isn't a durability feat. Do you see people calling Sasuke's Ribcage Susanoo durable because Ay cuts right through it like butter? :lol No.

Those scan's i brought shows stumbling from both parried attacks and dodged attacks.

No, they show stumbling from parried attacks. Even if they did show stumbling from dodged attacks I've already addressed the point of Sasuke stumbling because of a clean miss so bringing it back up without a counter argument isn't helping you here.

It isn't irrelevant though because of the bold. Gentle fist alone isn't enough to bring down first and second gated Lee because gates makes Lee tank the pain from Gentle fist.

Which is literally based on nothing. I suggest you start supporting your claims because frankly your opinions don't matter without evidence. No one's opinions matter without evidence in an argument.

It requires Neji pummeling a Lee who is way faster and stronger than VoTE Sasuke. Now Gentle fist is restricted here. But for Neji to have been able to take Lee down, he'll have had to have beaten Lee down is this incorrect? Neji isn't an aggressor and besides his CE self can't keep up with Gated Lee's speed anyway so this implies he beat down Lee with just counter attacking moves. Is this analysis incorrect?

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Manga is read from left to right. Gai never said the bold. High speed Taijutsu and High speed combo are two different things (if not he'll have said high speed taijutsu in both) with the secret to beating Neji the High speed combo. High speed combo refers to strikes right?

Are you kidding me? Everything he is talking about there refers to a single thing, Ura Renge. Please don't even try and deny that. He says "Extreme Lotus". Then he says "It (It=Extreme Lotus) is high speed Taijutsu that CAN'T EVEN BE TOUCHED". Then he says "THIS (This=Extreme Lotus, again) high speed combo is the answer to defeating Neji".

How exactly doesn't it matter though when movement speed=/= striking speed meaning reactions to these speeds would be different? You cannot just dismiss it without giving logical reasons.

Before you reply to me again, take a deep breath and read (actually read) what I'm typing, slowly, because this is now the 3rd time you've tried to address a point that no one is making here.

-Sasuke's best feat is reacting to KN1.
-Neji has no feat on that level.
-Thus Sasuke's reaction speed is superior.

Where in the world are you getting all this striking speed and CQC nonsense from when no one is talking about that in this section of the post? EVERYTHING in the above comparison is to prove that Sasuke's reaction speed is superior. Start reading before you reply because this is getting ridiculous.

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Can you honestly look at this scan and tell me the panel where Neji completes 64 palms with the remaining 32 hits wasn't done simultaneously in that single panel?

Yes I can, because anyone who reads Manga knows that multiple strikes in one panel=/=All strikes hitting at the same time. All it means is that the strikes are consecutive and fast.

Using the Byakugan’s 360 degrees vision and mapping this vision onto a Divination Hexagram Formation. Then the user will launch a series of high speed combo onto opponent that lies within this formation

Once again, you aren't reading before you reply.

"The user will launch a series of high speed combo onto opponent that lies within formation".

Meaning the user will attack enemies in the formation. Stop trying to invent a meaning that wasn't hinted at in the databook. It reeks of desperation. The DB says that Neji will target the foes inside the circle, not that the foes inside the circle can't escape. "launch onto" doesn't mean "guaranteed hit". :lol

At bold is referring to Sasuke being able to hit Neji which your explanations have failed to prove. Neji's expertise is dodging, deflecting and parrying attacks and i honestly don't remember a single scan where Neji actually blocks an attack. Sasuke will need much more than a linear punch to be able to hit Neji since Sasuke's without a doubt going to be the aggressor here.

No, for 4-5 posts now you've misread my explanations or straight up ignored them and then try to say they are wrong. :lol. Zero counters on your end and anyone reading this debate with unbiased mind will tell you that.

-You've stated that Neji's expertise is dodging, deflecting and parrying, and that Sasuke's attack is linear thus Neji easily parries it and dodges all strikes neg diff, yet you've to prove that Neji's actual physical ability is on the level to do that to someone of Sasuke's level.

I can easily substitue this same weak argument and say:

"Neji should easily parry Madara's strikes because Neji's expertise is dodging, parrying, and deflecting and Madara's attacks are linear" and no one in their right mind would support such an argument because it doesn't take Neji and Madara's physical abilities into account.

Neji was able to avoid getting tagged against those bunch of Naruto clones. (

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) Actually, he wasn't even forced into a single block but iirc, Sasuke was forced into one and he was even tagged? This is showing incredible flexibility and cqc maneuvering from Neji. Is KN0 the version Neji fought in CE? Because if so i'm not exactly sure how you can claim Neji couldn't seamlessly dodge him when we have Neji engaging him in what was a brief Kunai battle?

Those daggers were fast. You just keep choosing to ignore it and @bold do cqc fights take place 5m away from each other?

Imagine being delusional enough to think that Neji fighting Naruto in a Kunai battle says anything about Neji being able to seamlessly dodge him. Naruto dashed at him from 5-10m and Neji got surprised and couldn't even complete his rotation yet you are actually going to claim that he can seamlessly dodge that same KN0? (With zero proof of course) Let alone KN0 at VoTE. Let alone KN1.

If I used your logic, Neji dodging a bunch of Base Naruto clones=Neji being able to dodge KN0 or KN1. Can CE Neji dodge KN0 and KN1 easily? No, he can't. If you think he can you better bring the feats.


Lmao amazing. The daggers have no speed feats so how are you claiming they are "fast" to begin with? Oh wait, it's bias. Nothing more, nothing less and that's the truth.

And last part is an irrelevant question. Why would they have to take place 5m away from each other to validate the point being made there? The point being made is, Sasuke's dodging feats are far superior to Neji dodging a bunch of featless daggers so stop bringing it up. No one is talking about CQC here. Don't try to deflect the focal point of the argument when you fail to prove your original point.

No..a counter attack is a counter attack not a full on attack lol if not there'll be no need for the word counter no? A counter is in response to something. A full on attack is just what it is..an attack. The first person to throw a punch in a fight isn't counter attacking. He is attacking.

Lol amazing. Just amazing. A counter attack is when the aggressor is countered by the person he's attacking, but the person uses an ATTACK to counter ATTACK. A child could grasp a concept this basic. When an attack is used doesn't determine whether it's an attack or not so stop using that bad logic.

My point was an inferior sharingan was able to read Haku's top speed which was his movement from mirror to mirror thing? So why wasn't a superior sharingan able to read a counter attack?

Already addressed this. If Lee can blitz Sasuke but Haku can't, it means that Lee is faster. Haku also being at top speed is baseless as Haku's speed was starting to decrease by the time Sasuke became able to track him. :lol

What? The chronology shows that was clearly a counter attack lol

No shit sherlock. Again, you aren't reading my posts properly. The point is, it being a counter attack doesn't mean that the nature of the movement wasn't an offensive nature.

Lmao..this is totally besides the point. Of course it doesn't change the fact but my question/point is why the sharingan didn't read a counter attack in the first place?

Sasuke was reacting clearly to Lee's attacks before (

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) so why exactly was the Sharingan unable to read a counter attack?

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Another terrible example because then you'd have to show that all those attacks were delivered at the same exact speed. The chronology of an attack only affects how fast someone will react to it, not how fast their vision will pick it up.

Sasuke was able to sidestep Naruto's attacks because of the sharingan. The byakugan can track speed and anticipate attacks. And Neji is more flexible and at that point faster than Sasuke. Are these enough to prove Neji could dodge those linear punches too?

Byakugan is not Sharingan nor does it have precog nor does it give Neji a boost in reaction speed on par with what the 3-Tomoe does for Sasuke as the 3-Tomoe literally lets him see the next move of his opponent. So no, your argument makes no sense and you really shouldn't have tried to make it here unless you are going to argue that Byakugan=Sharingan in reaction speed boost next. :lol

So we should just ignore the fact that portrayal shows you need 64 tenketsu closed to be unable to use chakra (which is what happened with Kido) and Neji is portrayed to have done that faster than Kido who had been falling could hit the ground?
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No, you should stop ignoring chunks of the argument presented to you and start debating with some sense. We've seen how fast Neji does 64 palms ON PANEL. Stop mentioning off panel feats as if you knew what went down off panel.

- Why would Neji need to use rotation for projectiles that aren't fast?
- How exactly would they cover that much area to prevent Neji from jumping out coming from the distance they came from without being fast?
- What Sasuke dodged was a single linear punch coming from distance. What Neji dodged point blank (as they have to get to him before he starts dodging) was multiple fast layered unevenly spread daggers coming from all angles.

-Lol what? Why are you asking me this? Neji STATED that he had to dodge because he couldn't use rotation. Who said that he needed to use rotation to dodge them? Jesus.

-The amount of area they cover due to the number of daggers is irrelevant to their speed.

-This has been addressed. Sasuke can dodge and counter a bunch of Naruto clones yet that same Sasuke got raped by KN0's speed. One man. If your numbers nonsense logic worked then Sasuke would've easily dodged Naruto. Quit making this nonsense argument, it makes zero sense because it ignores speed in favor of numbers. Sasuke dodging KN1 from 5-10m away will forever be a much better feat than Neji dodging featless daggers from further away than that.

@bold lmao..In your words, ''No shit'' lol

That's an observation that needs to be made since you are fond of using logic that only makes sense when you ignore the fact that the author can't depict things like they do in the anime.

@underlined looks to me like you're denying what the manga is showing.

That'd be you, with literally every post you make.

Kido launched those daggers from the same location he launched those final arrows

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That means the daggers cover the distance i will call X that we see in the top panel here

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Cool observation, too bad it says nothing about speed as we've already established. Distance traveled is not speed. The rules of physics will not bend for your argument.

During the previous squabble, Kido launches daggers and we see them in Neji's face in literally the next panel after they were launched

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Meaning those set of daggers traveled distance X nigh instantly to be in Neji's face. But you are dismissing that because its a manga with still images? lol dude..

If you were using even a shred of common sense you'd realize that they appeared "nigh instantly" (lol dumbest shit I will probably read all day) in his face because Kishimoto can't illustrate the total travel of those daggers because HIS MANGA IS NOT ANIMATED.

Panel time does not and will not EVER translate to actual time elapsed in the Manga. That's a dumb claim to make, especially in this situation since if I used the logic you were using here, those traps would've traveled a speed close to or faster than that of the final arrow Kidomaru shot, yet Neji can EASILY dodge the traps while he stated he CANNOT dodge the arrow at all.

Your downplay of this feat doesn't seem logical enough too as i just searched a bit on the speed of launched projectiles like bullets and arrows. launched projectiles are fast.

When you did your little google search did you take into account the following...?

-Ninja are MUCH faster than human beings so what is fast to us in our world is 1000% irrelevant.
-Distance is another major factor.

No, I know you didn't. That's why this point doesn't work.

@Italics Well obviously. No one can dodge something they don't see coming. (

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:lol

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Neji saw it coming because he focused his chakra into his blind spot, so yes, he saw that last arrow coming yet he could not dodge it like he could dodge the other daggers that he detected..

Because the daggers are nowhere near as fast as the arrows. So stop arguing that they are.

Interesting logic. Which means Kido wouldn't have needed a bow to fire that arrow since he could have just used his hand to throw it and use the thread connected to the base from his mouth to manipulate it into Neji's blindspot.

Firing it with his bow and arrow works better than throwing it regardless of whether he can pierce him or not.

Neji could not begin dodging the daggers until they got to him first (

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). Sasuke dodged a single linear punch coming from a distance. These are obviously completely different scenarios.

This entire point has been addressed.

- Underlined.. because Sasuke needs more than one linear punch to be able to hit Neji
- Bold...That someone was coming from a distance..If they engaged in cqc which is what this vs thread is about, then you have a point. Naruto just kept coming and Sasuke kept punting him up-field because of Sharingan's timing not speed.
- Because Neji would be able to dodge, deflect and parry his strikes if he doesn't have any notable striking speed.

-And he landed multiple. As usual you don't make sense here. First you say "he didn't land multiple strikes on Naruto in the same scuffle", but then you say "he needs multiple hits to beat Neji" when those multiple hits don't need to landed one after another. :lol

-He tagged Naruto from a distance? Again, terrible logic. Him reacting to Naruto from a distance is irrelevant to the point being made. On panel and off panel to disable him Sasuke hit Naruto, and Naruto couldn't do anything about these incoming attacks. Naruto getting up close wouldn't have changed a damn thing, he wasn't fast enough, yet you think Neji is?

-Based on literally nothing. I'm STILL waiting for you to prove the claims you make.

Comparisons to a DB 1 Lee who is << SRA Neji in all areas except movement speed and strength.

Sasuke isn't Lee, so another irrelevant point to make since the only thing he benefits from Lee's Taijutsu is his movement speed, which is superior to Neji's.

I never disputed the fact that Sasuke was > than Lee in reaction speed. I said that was the only thing Sasuke was superior in to DB 1 Lee.

Gai didn't say that though did he? He said the key to defeating Neji is the high speed combo.

Lol My god. This has been addressed above.

- Never did
- I never said a single hit from Lee is beating Neji lol. I was using your scenario of light punches to cause Neji to stagger and open to heavier punches. No where did i say a single hit takes Neji out.
- Even though Gentle fist means little to nothing when Lee is in gates?
- VoTE Sasuke is only greater than Lee in reaction speed. How does that make him low compared to Sasuke's level in close combat?

-You say it means little to nothing yet Gai disagrees. So you can kindly stop arguing against what has been said now. It won't change facts.

-When using Lee's Taijutsu Sasuke has all of his primary moves, but with far greater reaction speed and equal strength. Doesn't take a genius to realize who is far superior to who when you put two people w/ identical movements and speed against each other while one has far greater reaction speed.

lol figured my use of neg diffing would come back to haunt me. So i retract all my neg diffing claims.

But it's a fact that DB 1 Lee never lost to Neji. My reply back there was because it seems you don't believe Lee would have tried to use gates to defeat Neji. Which wouldn't make much sense as we see him use gates off the bat against Sasuke.

And DB 1 Lee never being able to beat Neji w/ Gentle Fist says nothing about Sasuke beating Neji w/o as Neji is restricted and Sasuke>Lee.

 

[neosmith500]

That doesn't change the fact that Neji and Base Lee are considered to be worlds apart, and that Neji is considered to be strong enough to warrant Lee using the 5th Gate is because of Gentle Fist and Byakugan in combination with said physical ability and reflexes. Neji could handle regular Lee w/ hand to hand, but when talking about 5G it's obvious that Gentle Fist is needed.



Not sure why you are back on this point when I've already told you that being able to react to someone faster doesn't mean you can dodge someone slower. Tobirama can react to Obito, yet he can't dodge Ay. EMS Sasuke can react to KCM Naruto, yet he can't dodge Ay. Reaction speed and Movement speed are not the same nor do they have to be equal or even close. It all depends on said character, and even then, being able to evade him=/=Being able to easily evade him so I'm not sure where you are getting the basis of your argument from but it doesn't work here.

And since when was Base Lee strong enough to hit Neji or anyone in this Manga directly and break his/her bones? Using Sasuke's first strike against Lee as evidence that you are right because that would've happened to Neji also doesn't make sense when Neji is far stronger than that Sasuke, thus he obviously wouldn't take a hit that bad in the first place.

-True and this is why im saying Neji's physical agility and prowess should be at a level where he should easily able to react to and evade Weightless Lee combat speed movements without issue if Lee with the 1st and 2nd Gate could only dream of beating Neji in a purely physical contest even with all that increased attack/reaction/movement and agility speed Lee gains from using them.

-And i agreed but look at this , Tobi reacting to Obito's shunshin's means that he could react to Aye and KCM Shunshin but he cant dodge them which i agree with , but consider that weightless Lee has his own shunshin which is further amped by the 1st and second Gates increasing speed/reaction/agility in CQC yet he never outperformed Neji is raw hand to hand nor even could he even come close enough for Lee himself to not have deemed it a dream to beat him in Taijutsu.

Consider weightless Lee rushing Neji after opening the 1st Gate then proceeding to do this.

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How would u see a Neji without the use of Kaiten coping with that movement speed since we know Lee is pushing his stats to the limits and his Taijutsu is aimed towards breaking bones and badly staggering the enemy with physical power in direct contrast to jyuken style.

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Then consider that unweighted Lee's striking speed , movement and power was so amped he was able outpace Gaara's sand while kicking Gaara upwards when he weighed down by the sand armour , so how would u see Neji handling and outperforming 1st Gated Lee's movement and combat speed in pure hand to hand if Neji would have trouble or issues evading the much slower weightless Lee's combat speed??

Not sure what you mean here or how this addresses/counters anything I said here. Gai's statement means that Ura Renge+5G lets Lee hit Neji with multiple strikes before Neji can touch him, meaning that normally Neji would be able to react to 5G Lee. You think reacting to Lee=Dodging a slower version of Lee easily. Tobirama not being able to dodge Ay, but being able to react to Obito disproves that claim.

It means Weightless Lee cant hit Neji with any combo strikes before Neji can react and touch him , either by outpacing Lee's attack with his own strike the moment Lee launches it , or by avoiding his combo then outperforming Lee like wat Kimi did so tell me how do u think it would go down in a CQC Battle between Neji w/o Kaiten Vs weightless Lee when considering raw speed , shunshin and initial Gates in a Purely Physical contest where lee dashes at his full speed while under these effects.

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Tobi reacting to Obito's shunshin means that he could possibly pull off more physical movement , against a slower shunshin but completely dodging is a different thing all together i agree but where i feel the comparison really differs is simply because Neji would have had to be able to dodge weightless Lee's shunshin + Gated Speed which is>> is base weightless speed or at the very least counter strike at the exact moment that Lee strikes or the exact moment that Lee appears behind him using his vastly superior striking speed , high agility , combined with his Byakugan being able to anticipate attacks clearly so it can be combined wit precise timing/aim.

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Why are you still repeating the bold? Saying "he can react to 5G, thus he can easily dodge Weightless Lee" makes no sense. The former doesn't support the latter at all and I've illustrated this with Tobirama, Naruto and Sasuke. And since when did not being able to easily dodge someone mean that you'd be able to "outpace their reactions". Makes no sense at all. Way too many gaps and leaps in logic being made on your end.

While using the 1st and second Gate Lee's combat Speed should be beyond Neji's when considering that even without his weights he's faster in movement right? So wouldn't Neji's mental and physical agility have to be at a level for him to outperform 1st and 2nd Gate Lee which means' he'd avoid weightless Lee's combat speed with much less effort than he would the much faster 1st and 2nd GATED Lee without weights?

Based on what exactly? Because there is no feat that supports this statement in the Manga. Raw speed is speed w/o enhancements or Shunshin. Where did Sasuke show more raw speed than Neji? Not to mention same difference in points=/=Same difference in ability as we've already established that the pts system is closer to a tiering system than it is an exact measure.

Isn't this Sasuke's raw speed w/o enhancements or shunshin since its simply Sasuke running ??

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-I agreed there which is why i noted it since u used the databook to say Kimi>>Lee in raw speed.

True for the most part, but no one better go try using this as evidence for why Neji supposedly dodges all of Sasuke's attacks when Kimimaro is in fact faster regardless of his agility being that high.

He doesn't have to be faster to be more agile anyway and by feats he's more agile than Neji since he reacted to a army of KN0 without getting touched , that doesn't mean Base Kimi was way faster than KN0 in movement speed , but it shows he was fast enough and tiers more agile in his CQC movement speed and had a KKG complimenting his style.

This is a bad comparison. SRA Gaara is easily stronger than CE Gaara. Kimimaro not being fast enough to outspeed the sand and tag Gaara means one of the following:

-Kimimaro>Lee in raw speed, but Lee>Kimimaro in Shunshin.
-Gaara's Sand got faster, though this is more fact as the stronger he gets the faster his sand gets. So it could be number 2 alone or it could be a combination of the two that prevented Kimimaro from replicating Lee's feats.

How far would u put him>>Lee in speed? would u put him on KN0 Level of speed or barely above weightless? Also Lee didn't need shunshin to outpace the sand and clear distance towards Gaara , he could casually do so with running speed and even easier with 1st Gate.

-I agree that Gaara's sand was indeed faster which as u said is more of a fact than anything , but kimi made no note about Gaara's sand being fast while it attacked unlike he did for Lee's combat speed , which is slower than his built up running speed much less with lotus so i'd still see Lee being able to replicate his feats from the CE but only in terms of covering distance>time and easily outpacing the sand.

Agreed with the bold. Him being unable to get close to Gaara is simply because of Gaara's fighting style not because his fighting style is "counter based", and it really isn't counter based. He was on the offensive for most of his fight with Lee. Lee was the one doing most of the dodging. Gaara can fight from all ranges and his attacks are fairly widespread even at the basic level, that's why Kimimaro can't get close to him.

Him being unable to get close to Gaara seemed to be due to his fighting style which made him more agile and nimble/flexible much more so than he's fast in clearing distance like normal speedsters , Gaara's sand isn't catching something that can move much faster than it in terms of distance covered>time. The fight implied that Gaara's sand was faster than Kimi in movement speed , but Kimi was simple too agile and nimble to be touched while on his guard due to his agility being above the sands movement speed by far and he had his finger bones to shoot in correlation to his agile movements which hugely based on his skill level as Lee always noted was one of the main reasons to Kimi's great movements without him ever noting kimi's actual speed being anything special.

-I said he showed a 'more" counter based style not a exclusive one , opting to not be linear in his style and movements with extra focus on reading movements through skill in martial arts then counter-acting , he's not so counter based compared to Neji , but his style is coated in sizing up the enemies taijutsu style and movements/speed then picking the best time to strike when they leave themselves open and this is done by using timed counters and movements to force the enemy into a disadvantageous positioning then strike when they cant properly defend themselves

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He continued with this same style throughout the whole fight with Lee , only choosing to attack Lee after he attempts to set him in a way where he cant dodge which requires skill , exactly the same fighting style as Neji with contrasting differences.

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[Jinrou]

Lmao I'm 100% convinced you either can't or are choosing to read my posts incorrectly at this point, cause this is happening way too frequently for it to be a simple accident. :lol :lol

-Bold is IRRELEVANT to the claim being made. Bold is to show that dodging someone doesn't mean you are faster. Nothing more, nothing less. Stop trying to connect two unrelated points to make it seem like my argument is faulty. That claim was made because you think that because Neji strikes faster than Sasuke's raw movement speed, that Sasuke can't dodge. :lol

So you've yet to actually address my point here, that your comparisons are flawed because none of your examples cite a person in a disadvantageous position.

Kakashi was in a disadvantageous position that's why he couldn't dodge. Again, you yourself admitted if Sasuke gets parried it'll be GG.

Spoiler

That's obviously not a missed attack. That's a parried attack. Obviously if Sasuke got hit in the same manner it'd be GG

You bringing up sage mode and etc is irrelevant since they weren't in disadvantageous positions in the first place.

And is movement speed what's needed to avoid strikes in cqc? Seems to me its more body speed (flexibility/agility) that's needed. If not Neji should not have been able to land strikes on Lee who is way faster than him in Unweighted and Gated forms.

-You've yet to show that he can parry Sasuke's attacks easily. You keep mentioning "linear, linear" as if it will change the fact you don't have an argument based on real feats. Sasuke attacking with a regular strike/punch/kick doesn't prove that Neji can easily parry him. Nonsense in it's purest form.

-You keep asking for striking speed feats when amazingly fast striking speed isn't needed, especially when you've yet to actually support your argument, which is ironic because you are over here asking me to support an argument I don't need to make. :lol

Sasuke not having any notable striking speed comes in with a strike/punch/kick and Neji doesn't parry it despite him parrying strikes in all the cqc we've seen him involved in? Yet Sasuke who we haven't seen parrying any strikes in canon is able to easily parry Neji's strikes?

I've brought you scans/feats (as you'd like) of Neji parrying attacks yet you still ask me to bring feats? What do you want then? A scan of Neji actually parrying Sasuke? Because it seems that's what you want me to provide bro.

You've yet to make me really understand this scenario of Neji not being able to parry Sasuke's strikes man.

Lmao. Wow. Read the wiki entry where they break down this jutsu, then read the Manga again and see if it clicks cause it really shouldn't be this difficult to read the Manga. That stance is the stance he takes before the last strike. He spun his body around to land 16 strikes, not the last 32. The manga shows it pretty clearly. So does the anime. :lol

Then it shows him thrust himself at Naruto and the last thing you see is him stepping forward, hence the movement lines below his feet, but I'm going to circle them just so you don't try and deny what's right in front of you.

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Him moving his body like that adds more speed and power to his strikes. That's a fact.

@bold what?

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Middle panels show him spinning to land the last 32 strikes to make it 64 overall...what 16 strikes are you talking about?

The last thing we see before he landed 32 strikes is him spinning towards Naruto. The stance you're showing me is after he takes the last strikes..because the dust you highlighted is showing Neji completed the last 32 strikes mid-moving forward.

And if you'd stop and use logic for just a second you'd realize that there's no indication that multiple hits in a single panel=/=All hits landing at the same exact time. Why are you arguing a claim that you literally can't support? It's ridiculous. 64 palms have been and always will be CONSECUTIVE strikes. Them being fast=/=Them all landing at the same damn time.

What you're telling me is the 32 strikes to complete 64 we see here are not consecutive? Are you being serious with this? We can clearly see it's taken a single panel to complete both 16 and 32 consecutive strikes. So much so the effects from having tenketsu forcefully closed with jyuken is still evident on Naruto's body in the form of number of strikes on Naruto's body at the very end.

How else do you want fast consecutive strikes to be drawn in a manga if not by using panels to depict time?

Lmao. I'm tempted to just copy and paste what I just posted as a response because if you had read that then you'd realize I answered all this right then and there.

-A parry in the sense that I'm referring to is when you ward off an enemy attack with your own attack. No. Dodge. Is. Necessary.
-A parry in the sense you are referring to is where the defender dodges and then guides the enemy attack away. The follow up attack is just that, a follow up attack and irrelevant to actual action of the parry.

I said Sasuke will do the bold. I explained why he, or anyone who can move their fists, can do the bold. I can't make it any simpler than this.

You really shouldn't try to change the wordings of the dictionary definition you brought. It clearly said countermove..not counter attack.

So the parry Sasuke does is one that doesn't have a counter-attack? You say this but have kept giving Sasuke this form of parry counter attack ability he has never shown.

Spoiler

he'll parry Neji's regular strikes and kicks used against Naruto and Hinata in regular CQC and then counter attack.

Sasuke parries his attacks and then beats him down.

All he'd need to do is parry and counter Neji's regular strikes

@underlined is then weird because you have Neji who trains in taijutsu unable to parry Sasuke's strikes without giving logical reasons.

''Sasuke attacking with a regular strike/punch/kick doesn't prove that Neji can easily parry him. Nonsense in it's purest form.''

Spoiler

Neji isn't parrying anything here.

No, I asked for proof that MISSED attacks result in a parry because you were saying Neji would dodge Sasuke's attacks and he would stumble. If you meant to say parry, you should've said parry instead of saying dodge because dodging and parrying are obviously not the same things.

How do you come to a conclusion with the bold from the underlined? Missed attacks result in a parry? What does that even mean?

And seriously those scans i brought showed stumbling from parried and dodged attacks. Will you have me post them again?

Neji in all cqc we've seen him in either dodges or parries with none of those we've seen him fight fast enough to force him into a block. SRA Neji >>> CE Neji in all physical abilities so logically Sasuke would need to be fast too (striking speed) to even be hopeful of tagging Neji.

-Against a Neji w/ Gentle Fist. A Lee who doesn't have reaction speed on par with Sasuke.
-When he's using Lee's speed he's obviously faster than Neji. :lol Please don't argue against the Manga.
-Yet overall CE Lee is not as strong as Sasuke, something that has also been addressed.

- Now that i think about it, you keep saying reaction speed. Isn't reaction speed more useful for dodging attacks than actually landing hits? And come on man...i showed you how gentle fist wouldn't be enough to take down gated Lee as gates make him fight through pain. And your reply reeked of approval.

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Gentle Fist alone isn't why Neji would defeat 1G and 2G Lee, so Lee being able to fight after a single gentle fist hit doesn't matter. He is straight up superior in hand to hand.

Except you are of the opinion Sasuke is superior to Neji in hand to hand?

- True lol..sorry xD

- VoTE Sasuke is only superior to Lee in reactions. And the reactions itself is based on movement made by the opponent and i've proven clearly Neji waits till the last moment when his opponent is in range for a counter attack to move.

-Skill is skill.
-Overall ability is how one does in the actual conflict.

I get it now. Ty ^^

If you want to continue this argument I suggest you stop asking me to disprove your nonexistent arguments. Where are the feats that let Neji do what you claim he can do? Debates work by you making a claim and then supporting it, not by you making a claim, not supporting it sufficiently or at all and then asking me why you aren't correct.

I have shown you time and again scans of Neji parrying attacks but still you hold the opinion Neji can't parry any of sasuke's strikes based on absolutely nothing. And yet you have Sasuke parrying Neji's strikes out of thin air based on logical deductions and no scans or feats.

The only way i can seem to disprove this opinion of yours is if i bring a scan of Neji parrying Sasuke and as we both know, that's impossible.

Lol I'm sorry but this is probably the stupidest thing I've read in your entire posts thus far.

-First you say resilience and durability are different.
-Then you use a resilience feat as a durability feat as if you have any idea what you are talking about.

Neji survived that long because he is resilient. Durability is how much damage you take to begin with. An object ripping through his body with zero effort isn't a durability feat. Do you see people calling Sasuke's Ribcage Susanoo durable because Ay cuts right through it like butter? :lol No.

:wesobi: If you re-read that last post, you'll see i specifically said "Neji moving despite having 2 holes in him"...Where did i talk about the length of Neji surviving in that last post?

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du·ra·ble (do͝or′ə-bəl, dyo͝or′-)
adj.
1.
a. Capable of withstanding wear and tear or decay: a durable fabric.
b. Made to withstand repeated use over a relatively long period, usually several years or more: durable goods such as washing machines and dryers.
2. Able to perform or compete over a long period, as by avoiding or overcoming injuries: a durable fullback.
3. Lasting; stable: a durable friendship.

No, they show stumbling from parried attacks. Even if they did show stumbling from dodged attacks I've already addressed the point of Sasuke stumbling because of a clean miss so bringing it back up without a counter argument isn't helping you here.

No. They clearly showed stumbling from parried and dodged attacks.

Which is literally based on nothing. I suggest you start supporting your claims because frankly your opinions don't matter without evidence. No one's opinions matter without evidence in an argument.

Except we have already gone through this phase to which your reply implied agreement.

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Gentle Fist alone isn't why Neji would defeat 1G and 2G Lee, so Lee being able to fight after a single gentle fist hit doesn't matter. He is straight up superior in hand to hand.

Are you kidding me? Everything he is talking about there refers to a single thing, Ura Renge. Please don't even try and deny that. He says "Extreme Lotus". Then he says "It (It=Extreme Lotus) is high speed Taijutsu that CAN'T EVEN BE TOUCHED". Then he says "THIS (This=Extreme Lotus, again) high speed combo is the answer to defeating Neji".

@bold except it doesn't because High speed taijutsu and high speed combo are two different things here. If i asked why high speed taijutsu wasn't said as the secret to defeating Neji, what would be your answer?

-Sasuke's best feat is reacting to KN1.
-Neji has no feat on that level.
-Thus Sasuke's reaction speed is superior.

Where in the world are you getting all this striking speed and CQC nonsense from when no one is talking about that in this section of the post? EVERYTHING in the above comparison is to prove that Sasuke's reaction speed is superior. Start reading before you reply because this is getting ridiculous.

This is because you are clearly using the fact Sasuke reacted to Naruto's movement speed as a base to conclude he would be able to evade all of Neji's attacks when this vs is based on cqc?
Sasuke's reaction isn't superior to Neji's in cqc.

Yes I can, because anyone who reads Manga knows that multiple strikes in one panel=/=All strikes hitting at the same time. All it means is that the strikes are consecutive and fast.

''All it means is that the strikes are consecutive and fast'' but you hold the opinion they don't impact in the same panel?

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When we don't have spillage of said multiple strikes in a subsequent panel, doesn't that mean all the strikes impacted in the same panel where they are shown?

Once again, you aren't reading before you reply.

"The user will launch a series of high speed combo onto opponent that lies within formation".

Meaning the user will attack enemies in the formation. Stop trying to invent a meaning that wasn't hinted at in the databook. It reeks of desperation. The DB says that Neji will target the foes inside the circle, not that the foes inside the circle can't escape. "launch onto" doesn't mean "guaranteed hit". :lol

Stop trying to manipulate meanings and words..No where does the DB say the bold. It says launch a series of high speed combo not 'target.' If you're in range...you'll be launched at with high speed combo not targeted.

-Kido was fast enough to escape from Neji's Los quickly..But when he was in range for 64 palms at the beginning of the fight, he couldn't move out of the way.

No, for 4-5 posts now you've misread my explanations or straight up ignored them and then try to say they are wrong. :lol. Zero counters on your end and anyone reading this debate with unbiased mind will tell you that.

-You've stated that Neji's expertise is dodging, deflecting and parrying, and that Sasuke's attack is linear thus Neji easily parries it and dodges all strikes neg diff, yet you've to prove that Neji's actual physical ability is on the level to do that to someone of Sasuke's level.

I can easily substitue this same weak argument and say:

"Neji should easily parry Madara's strikes because Neji's expertise is dodging, parrying, and deflecting and Madara's attacks are linear" and no one in their right mind would support such an argument because it doesn't take Neji and Madara's physical abilities into account.

What exactly is Sasuke's level? Superior strength and possibly a minute of faster raw movement speed. All this is similar to a gated Lee who Neji still defeats. (Gates make Lee tank pain from gentle fist as stated before so Gentle fist isn't all Neji needed to defeat gated Lee). The only thing Sasuke is superior in to any form of Lee is reactions and Neji who makes his movements/counter attack at the last minute is a counter to this is he not?

Sasuke comes in with a strike with the confidence he'll hit Neji..but Neji doesn't move until the last minute. Even if sharingan can read counter attacks (which you still haven't answered btw) what happened with the motion Sasuke was already coming in with as at this point he would be in range to be decked by Neji. Does Sasuke have the maneuverability to stop himself mid attack and react/dodge/jump back? This is what Lee said at the very beginning..Even if you see it, it means nothing if your body doesn't have the speed to react?
Neji's style in cqc with waiting till the last moment to counter reduces the possibility of reacting to a near zero.

All these seem like scenarios you haven't considered tbh.

Imagine being delusional enough to think that Neji fighting Naruto in a Kunai battle says anything about Neji being able to seamlessly dodge him. Naruto dashed at him from 5-10m and Neji got surprised and couldn't even complete his rotation yet you are actually going to claim that he can seamlessly dodge that same KN0? (With zero proof of course) Let alone KN0 at VoTE. Let alone KN1.

If I used your logic, Neji dodging a bunch of Base Naruto clones=Neji being able to dodge KN0 or KN1. Can CE Neji dodge KN0 and KN1 easily? No, he can't. If you think he can you better bring the feats.

Here we are again despite you saying this was irrelevant a post or two ago.

Which is faster man?

-Outright dodging or
-Releasing chakra from all your tenketsu a few feet from you in all directions and then spinning to counter a shock-wave with the ability to cut like we saw with Sasuke getting cut?

Lmao amazing. The daggers have no speed feats so how are you claiming they are "fast" to begin with? Oh wait, it's bias. Nothing more, nothing less and that's the truth.

This is plain denial though as we have a scan of Kido releasing daggers and they appearing in Neji's front almost immediately covering that entire distance in no time.

And last part is an irrelevant question. Why would they have to take place 5m away from each other to validate the point being made there? The point being made is, Sasuke's dodging feats are far superior to Neji dodging a bunch of featless daggers so stop bringing it up. No one is talking about CQC here. Don't try to deflect the focal point of the argument when you fail to prove your original point.

The daggers aren't featless.

Lol amazing. Just amazing. A counter attack is when the aggressor is countered by the person he's attacking, but the person uses an ATTACK to counter ATTACK. A child could grasp a concept this basic. When an attack is used doesn't determine whether it's an attack or not so stop using that bad logic.

Well true..I was just looking at the complex part of it lol..Afterall a brother and half brother are brothers of someone but both words are different on a complex level despite both having the word 'brother'.

Already addressed this. If Lee can blitz Sasuke but Haku can't, it means that Lee is faster. Haku also being at top speed is baseless as Haku's speed was starting to decrease by the time Sasuke became able to track him. :lol

Lee is faster in striking.

No shit sherlock. Again, you aren't reading my posts properly. The point is, it being a counter attack doesn't mean that the nature of the movement wasn't an offensive nature.

It was a counter attack lol.

Another terrible example because then you'd have to show that all those attacks were delivered at the same exact speed. The chronology of an attack only affects how fast someone will react to it, not how fast their vision will pick it up.

I really still don't see an answer as to why the Sharingan couldn't read a counter attack in this post though.

Byakugan is not Sharingan nor does it have precog nor does it give Neji a boost in reaction speed on par with what the 3-Tomoe does for Sasuke as the 3-Tomoe literally lets him see the next move of his opponent. So no, your argument makes no sense and you really shouldn't have tried to make it here unless you are going to argue that Byakugan=Sharingan in reaction speed boost next. :lol

Unfortunately Kishi didn't focus on the byakugan as much as i would have liked but he did make it known the byakugan

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. As to what extent is definitely unknown but being able to anticipate (increasing reaction speed), track speed and Neji having fast movement speed and agility leads me to believe he can seamlessly dodge KN0 too.

No, you should stop ignoring chunks of the argument presented to you and start debating with some sense. We've seen how fast Neji does 64 palms ON PANEL. Stop mentioning off panel feats as if you knew what went down off panel.

But we clearly see the results of what happened off panel and that Neji's hand positions and Kido having his tenketsu closed. Lets not forget Kido had already countered 64 palms before and as such if Neji had not been extremely fast with the 64palms he did there, there was a risk of Kido countering him again.

-The amount of area they cover due to the number of daggers is irrelevant to their speed.

Bro. You said Neji couldn't jump out because of the area they covered. The distance between Neji and where those daggers were launched from is over 50m. How on earth is it possible that daggers coming from over 50 m out would converge on Neji's space denying him the ability to jump out without the daggers being fast?

-This has been addressed. Sasuke can dodge and counter a bunch of Naruto clones yet that same Sasuke got raped by KN0's speed. One man. If your numbers nonsense logic worked then Sasuke would've easily dodged Naruto. Quit making this nonsense argument, it makes zero sense because it ignores speed in favor of numbers. Sasuke dodging KN1 from 5-10m away will forever be a much better feat than Neji dodging featless daggers from further away than that.

The daggers aren't featless. Neji dodged multiples of those fast daggers point blank while Sasuke dodged strikes coming from a distance.

That's an observation that needs to be made since you are fond of using logic that only makes sense when you ignore the fact that the author can't depict things like they do in the anime.

This is something you need to realize yourself. How exactly do you want an author to denote speed in his manga? By using panels. You're using the fact that the daggers weren't shown travelling the distance to indicate they could have been slow when we've always used panels to know how fast things are in the manga.

Kimimaro unleashed a bone forest but Gaara was able to get himself and Lee airborne before they were impaled. Just because the process where Gaara did this wasn't shown, does that mean the bone forest was not fast?

If you were using even a shred of common sense you'd realize that they appeared "nigh instantly" (lol dumbest shit I will probably read all day) in his face because Kishimoto can't illustrate the total travel of those daggers because HIS MANGA IS NOT ANIMATED.

- First of all the daggers need to be fast to be able to cover an area to restrict Neji from jumping out since he can see them the moment they enter his 50 m range
- Second, the daggers need to be faster than fast to not lose KE as they are travelling from over 50m out with the sole purpose of impaling someone.

Panel time does not and will not EVER translate to actual time elapsed in the Manga. That's a dumb claim to make, especially in this situation since if I used the logic you were using here, those traps would've traveled a speed close to or faster than that of the final arrow Kidomaru shot, yet Neji can EASILY dodge the traps while he stated he CANNOT dodge the arrow at all.

That's the most logical conclusion to get to but for some reason you don't just want to accept. Neji could not dodge the daggers that entered his blindspot just like the arrows because he couldn't see them bro. And then from the scan which you keep downplaying, we have this:

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The daggers that Kido launched got to Neji faster than the dust at his feet from a previous wave could settle.

Seriously man, really think this through. If the daggers were cloaked or hidden and controlled like the arrows, then you will have a point but they weren't.. meaning Neji can see these daggers the moment they enter his 50 m range. If they were not fast, there is absolutely no way they would be able to cover Neji's area and prevent him from jumping out.

When you did your little google search did you take into account the following...?

-Ninja are MUCH faster than human beings so what is fast to us in our world is 1000% irrelevant.
-Distance is another major factor.

No, I know you didn't. That's why this point doesn't work.

Launched projectiles are launched projectiles.

:lol

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Neji saw it coming because he focused his chakra into his blind spot, so yes, he saw that last arrow coming yet he could not dodge it like he could dodge the other daggers that he detected..

Because the daggers are nowhere near as fast as the arrows. So stop arguing that they are.

@underlined broo...Focusing chakra into his blindspot now translates as seeing through his blindspot? He said he could detect with chakra and looking at where the chakra reaches in the link you provided, you think with the speed of the arrow, it won't be nothing less than a split second detection? Not to mention if he could detect those daggers in his blindspot, he obviously still wasn't dodging them was he??

-And he landed multiple. As usual you don't make sense here. First you say "he didn't land multiple strikes on Naruto in the same scuffle", but then you say "he needs multiple hits to beat Neji" when those multiple hits don't need to landed one after another. :lol

You do have a point with the bold..i wasn't seeing it that way before lol...But like i've always said, that's if Sasuke touches him in the first place.

-He tagged Naruto from a distance? Again, terrible logic. Him reacting to Naruto from a distance is irrelevant to the point being made. On panel and off panel to disable him Sasuke hit Naruto, and Naruto couldn't do anything about these incoming attacks. Naruto getting up close wouldn't have changed a damn thing, he wasn't fast enough, yet you think Neji is?

Naruto doesn't have Neji's reaction speed though :lol So of course he'll get hit especially when he's allowing sharingan read his movements and giving Sasuke offensive timing :lol

Sasuke isn't Lee, so another irrelevant point to make since the only thing he benefits from Lee's Taijutsu is his movement speed, which is superior to Neji's.

For only a brief moment of course? And honestly using Lee's speed would be a bad move here wouldn't it as if he doesn't defeat Neji in a short time, he'll lose his stamina and become slower.

-When using Lee's Taijutsu Sasuke has all of his primary moves, but with far greater reaction speed and equal strength. Doesn't take a genius to realize who is far superior to who when you put two people w/ identical movements and speed against each other while one has far greater reaction speed.

Moves Neji knows about as has been sparring against said moves for at the very least a year. How does greater reaction speed help against someone who waits until the last minute to counter? 1G and 2G Lee would only need a couple of hits to put Neji down. As far as we know, that never happened meaning Lee who has superior striking speed at this point couldn't tag Neji.

And DB 1 Lee never being able to beat Neji w/ Gentle Fist says nothing about Sasuke beating Neji w/o as Neji is restricted and Sasuke>Lee.

Gated Lee tanks pain from gentle fist and has enough time in gated mode to pummel Neji but that as we know never happened. And like you stated before, it'll take more than just gentle fist to put down gated Lee.

Spoiler

Gentle Fist alone isn't why Neji would defeat 1G and 2G Lee, so Lee being able to fight after a single gentle fist hit doesn't matter. He is straight up superior in hand to hand.

 

[Unorthodox]

kidgamer i got yo back these hyuga fans got us bent

 

[KidGamer65]

-True and this is why im saying Neji's physical agility and prowess should be at a level where he should easily able to react to and evade Weightless Lee combat speed movements without issue if Lee with the 1st and 2nd Gate could only dream of beating Neji in a purely physical contest even with all that increased attack/reaction/movement and agility speed Lee gains from using them.

But again, that isn't based on anything. Neji doesn't need to be able to easily evade all of Lee's attacks in order to easily defeat him in hand to hand. Can he evade some? Sure, is he going to be weaving Lee like Lee is some fodder in comparison? No, based on literally nothing.

-And i agreed but look at this , Tobi reacting to Obito's shunshin's means that he could react to Aye and KCM Shunshin but he cant dodge them which i agree with , but consider that weightless Lee has his own shunshin which is further amped by the 1st and second Gates increasing speed/reaction/agility in CQC yet he never outperformed Neji is raw hand to hand nor even could he even come close enough for Lee himself to not have deemed it a dream to beat him in Taijutsu.

That doesn't invalidate my comparison so there was no point bringing it up. Yes, Gated Lee>>>Weightless Lee in speed, but Juubito>>>Ay in speed and Tobirama can't dodge Ay, so there's no arguing this point with the evidence you've provided. None at all.

Consider weightless Lee rushing Neji after opening the 1st Gate then proceeding to do this.

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How would u see a Neji without the use of Kaiten coping with that movement speed since we know Lee is pushing his stats to the limits and his Taijutsu is aimed towards breaking bones and badly staggering the enemy with physical power in direct contrast to jyuken style.

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He'd probably block, or maybe he'd be able to evade. Not evidence he easily evades all of Lee's attacks though either way.

Then consider that unweighted Lee's striking speed , movement and power was so amped he was able outpace Gaara's sand while kicking Gaara upwards when he weighed down by the sand armour , so how would u see Neji handling and outperforming 1st Gated Lee's movement and combat speed in pure hand to hand if Neji would have trouble or issues evading the much slower weightless Lee's combat speed??

Read above.

It means Weightless Lee cant hit Neji with any combo strikes before Neji can react and touch him , either by outpacing Lee's attack with his own strike the moment Lee launches it , or by avoiding his combo then outperforming Lee like wat Kimi did so tell me how do u think it would go down in a CQC Battle between Neji w/o Kaiten Vs weightless Lee when considering raw speed , shunshin and initial Gates in a Purely Physical contest where lee dashes at his full speed while under these effects.

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Read above, same overarching point as the last few paragraphs.

Tobi reacting to Obito's shunshin means that he could possibly pull off more physical movement , against a slower shunshin but completely dodging is a different thing all together i agree but where i feel the comparison really differs is simply because Neji would have had to be able to dodge weightless Lee's shunshin + Gated Speed which is>> is base weightless speed or at the very least counter strike at the exact moment that Lee strikes or the exact moment that Lee appears behind him using his vastly superior striking speed , high agility , combined with his Byakugan being able to anticipate attacks clearly so it can be combined wit precise timing/aim.

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But not an evasion, let alone an easy evasion. Anyway, this was all addressed above.

While using the 1st and second Gate Lee's combat Speed should be beyond Neji's when considering that even without his weights he's faster in movement right? So wouldn't Neji's mental and physical agility have to be at a level for him to outperform 1st and 2nd Gate Lee which means' he'd avoid weightless Lee's combat speed with much less effort than he would the much faster 1st and 2nd GATED Lee without weights?

Outperform=/=Easily evade all attacks. I shouldn't have to point out that difference.

Isn't this Sasuke's raw speed w/o enhancements or shunshin since its simply Sasuke running ??

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-I agreed there which is why i noted it since u used the databook to say Kimi>>Lee in raw speed.

I thought you were only talking about Sasuke w/o the speed he copied from Lee, then yeah, this is a correct point.

He doesn't have to be faster to be more agile anyway and by feats he's more agile than Neji since he reacted to a army of KN0 without getting touched , that doesn't mean Base Kimi was way faster than KN0 in movement speed , but it shows he was fast enough and tiers more agile in his CQC movement speed and had a KKG complimenting his style.

Yup, it doesn't mean that Kimimaro was way faster than KN0 in raw movement speed, it simply means that he's far faster than Naruto and Neji in reaction speed.

How far would u put him>>Lee in speed? would u put him on KN0 Level of speed or barely above weightless? Also Lee didn't need shunshin to outpace the sand and clear distance towards Gaara , he could casually do so with running speed and even easier with 1st Gate.

In terms of movement speed (overall) the difference might not be that large, but in terms of reaction speed Kimimaro is far above Lee. And the scans where Lee was actually shown outspeeding Gaara's sand defense were the scans where it was obvious he was using Shunshin. Anything else IIRC was just him dodging the sand, not the same thing.

-I agree that Gaara's sand was indeed faster which as u said is more of a fact than anything , but kimi made no note about Gaara's sand being fast while it attacked unlike he did for Lee's combat speed , which is slower than his built up running speed much less with lotus so i'd still see Lee being able to replicate his feats from the CE but only in terms of covering distance>time and easily outpacing the sand.

Because it being fast isn't the sole reason why he can't get close. It's speed+the fact it's a more widespread kind of attack+the fact that it's all ranges is why he can't get close. The simple fact that Kimimaro couldn't outspeed said Sand is enough to show that Lee isn't replicating his feats from the Chuunin Exam.

Him being unable to get close to Gaara seemed to be due to his fighting style which made him more agile and nimble/flexible much more so than he's fast in clearing distance like normal speedsters , Gaara's sand isn't catching something that can move much faster than it in terms of distance covered>time. The fight implied that Gaara's sand was faster than Kimi in movement speed , but Kimi was simple too agile and nimble to be touched while on his guard due to his agility being above the sands movement speed by far and he had his finger bones to shoot in correlation to his agile movements which hugely based on his skill level as Lee always noted was one of the main reasons to Kimi's great movements without him ever noting kimi's actual speed being anything special.

No, it's not. Not sure why you are trying to over complicate things here. Kimimaro is a close range fighter. Gaara can fight from all ranges and his sand is strong defense, it's widespread and it's fast. Kimimaro couldn't get close because Gaara's fighting style disallows it. Kimimaro's alleged fighting style being a more nimble kind of fighting style isn't an excuse for why he couldn't get close, because he's one of the fastest characters to appear during Part 1.

-I said he showed a 'more" counter based style not a exclusive one , opting to not be linear in his style and movements with extra focus on reading movements through skill in martial arts then counter-acting , he's not so counter based compared to Neji , but his style is coated in sizing up the enemies taijutsu style and movements/speed then picking the best time to strike when they leave themselves open and this is done by using timed counters and movements to force the enemy into a disadvantageous positioning then strike when they cant properly defend themselves

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Not being linear is unorthodox, not counter based.

All you are basing this claim on in the first place is Kimimaro being able to counter Lee when Lee attacks, and that doesn't make sense. That's a normal fight right there. Lee attacks, Kimimaro counters. Him being good at countering doesn't mean that his fighting style is a counter based fighting style.

He continued with this same style throughout the whole fight with Lee , only choosing to attack Lee after he attempts to set him in a way where he cant dodge which requires skill , exactly the same fighting style as Neji with contrasting differences.

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Yeah, because most of this fight Lee was on the offensive.

 

[unknownvillain1254]

kidgamer i got yo back these hyuga fans got us bent

bent over yes we do

 

[unknownvillain1254]

Kakashi was in a disadvantageous position that's why he couldn't dodge. Again, you yourself admitted if Sasuke gets parried it'll be GG.


You bringing up sage mode and etc is irrelevant since they weren't in disadvantageous positions in the first place.

And is movement speed what's needed to avoid strikes in cqc? Seems to me its more body speed (flexibility/agility) that's needed. If not Neji should not have been able to land strikes on Lee who is way faster than him in Unweighted and Gated forms.



Sasuke not having any notable striking speed comes in with a strike/punch/kick and Neji doesn't parry it despite him parrying strikes in all the cqc we've seen him involved in? Yet Sasuke who we haven't seen parrying any strikes in canon is able to easily parry Neji's strikes?

I've brought you scans/feats (as you'd like) of Neji parrying attacks yet you still ask me to bring feats? What do you want then? A scan of Neji actually parrying Sasuke? Because it seems that's what you want me to provide bro.

You've yet to make me really understand this scenario of Neji not being able to parry Sasuke's strikes man.



@bold what?

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Middle panels show him spinning to land the last 32 strikes to make it 64 overall...what 16 strikes are you talking about?

The last thing we see before he landed 32 strikes is him spinning towards Naruto. The stance you're showing me is after he takes the last strikes..because the dust you highlighted is showing Neji completed the last 32 strikes mid-moving forward.



What you're telling me is the 32 strikes to complete 64 we see here are not consecutive? Are you being serious with this? We can clearly see it's taken a single panel to complete both 16 and 32 consecutive strikes. So much so the effects from having tenketsu forcefully closed with jyuken is still evident on Naruto's body in the form of number of strikes on Naruto's body at the very end.

How else do you want fast consecutive strikes to be drawn in a manga if not by using panels to depict time?



You really shouldn't try to change the wordings of the dictionary definition you brought. It clearly said countermove..not counter attack.

So the parry Sasuke does is one that doesn't have a counter-attack? You say this but have kept giving Sasuke this form of parry counter attack ability he has never shown.


@underlined is then weird because you have Neji who trains in taijutsu unable to parry Sasuke's strikes without giving logical reasons.

''Sasuke attacking with a regular strike/punch/kick doesn't prove that Neji can easily parry him. Nonsense in it's purest form.''




How do you come to a conclusion with the bold from the underlined? Missed attacks result in a parry? What does that even mean?

And seriously those scans i brought showed stumbling from parried and dodged attacks. Will you have me post them again?

Neji in all cqc we've seen him in either dodges or parries with none of those we've seen him fight fast enough to force him into a block. SRA Neji >>> CE Neji in all physical abilities so logically Sasuke would need to be fast too (striking speed) to even be hopeful of tagging Neji.



- Now that i think about it, you keep saying reaction speed. Isn't reaction speed more useful for dodging attacks than actually landing hits? And come on man...i showed you how gentle fist wouldn't be enough to take down gated Lee as gates make him fight through pain. And your reply reeked of approval.

Except you are of the opinion Sasuke is superior to Neji in hand to hand?

- True lol..sorry xD

- VoTE Sasuke is only superior to Lee in reactions. And the reactions itself is based on movement made by the opponent and i've proven clearly Neji waits till the last moment when his opponent is in range for a counter attack to move.



I get it now. Ty ^^



I have shown you time and again scans of Neji parrying attacks but still you hold the opinion Neji can't parry any of sasuke's strikes based on absolutely nothing. And yet you have Sasuke parrying Neji's strikes out of thin air based on logical deductions and no scans or feats.

The only way i can seem to disprove this opinion of yours is if i bring a scan of Neji parrying Sasuke and as we both know, that's impossible.



:wesobi: If you re-read that last post, you'll see i specifically said "Neji moving despite having 2 holes in him"...Where did i talk about the length of Neji surviving in that last post?

Spoiler

du·ra·ble (do͝or′ə-bəl, dyo͝or′-)
adj.
1.
a. Capable of withstanding wear and tear or decay: a durable fabric.
b. Made to withstand repeated use over a relatively long period, usually several years or more: durable goods such as washing machines and dryers.
2. Able to perform or compete over a long period, as by avoiding or overcoming injuries: a durable fullback.
3. Lasting; stable: a durable friendship.

No. They clearly showed stumbling from parried and dodged attacks.



Except we have already gone through this phase to which your reply implied agreement.




@bold except it doesn't because High speed taijutsu and high speed combo are two different things here. If i asked why high speed taijutsu wasn't said as the secret to defeating Neji, what would be your answer?



This is because you are clearly using the fact Sasuke reacted to Naruto's movement speed as a base to conclude he would be able to evade all of Neji's attacks when this vs is based on cqc?
Sasuke's reaction isn't superior to Neji's in cqc.



''All it means is that the strikes are consecutive and fast'' but you hold the opinion they don't impact in the same panel?

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When we don't have spillage of said multiple strikes in a subsequent panel, doesn't that mean all the strikes impacted in the same panel where they are shown?



Stop trying to manipulate meanings and words..No where does the DB say the bold. It says launch a series of high speed combo not 'target.' If you're in range...you'll be launched at with high speed combo not targeted.

-Kido was fast enough to escape from Neji's Los quickly..But when he was in range for 64 palms at the beginning of the fight, he couldn't move out of the way.



What exactly is Sasuke's level? Superior strength and possibly a minute of faster raw movement speed. All this is similar to a gated Lee who Neji still defeats. (Gates make Lee tank pain from gentle fist as stated before so Gentle fist isn't all Neji needed to defeat gated Lee). The only thing Sasuke is superior in to any form of Lee is reactions and Neji who makes his movements/counter attack at the last minute is a counter to this is he not?

Sasuke comes in with a strike with the confidence he'll hit Neji..but Neji doesn't move until the last minute. Even if sharingan can read counter attacks (which you still haven't answered btw) what happened with the motion Sasuke was already coming in with as at this point he would be in range to be decked by Neji. Does Sasuke have the maneuverability to stop himself mid attack and react/dodge/jump back? This is what Lee said at the very beginning..Even if you see it, it means nothing if your body doesn't have the speed to react?
Neji's style in cqc with waiting till the last moment to counter reduces the possibility of reacting to a near zero.

All these seem like scenarios you haven't considered tbh.




Here we are again despite you saying this was irrelevant a post or two ago.

Which is faster man?

-Outright dodging or
-Releasing chakra from all your tenketsu a few feet from you in all directions and then spinning to counter a shock-wave with the ability to cut like we saw with Sasuke getting cut?



This is plain denial though as we have a scan of Kido releasing daggers and they appearing in Neji's front almost immediately covering that entire distance in no time.



The daggers aren't featless.



Well true..I was just looking at the complex part of it lol..Afterall a brother and half brother are brothers of someone but both words are different on a complex level despite both having the word 'brother'.



Lee is faster in striking.



It was a counter attack lol.



I really still don't see an answer as to why the Sharingan couldn't read a counter attack in this post though.



Unfortunately Kishi didn't focus on the byakugan as much as i would have liked but he did make it known the byakugan

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. As to what extent is definitely unknown but being able to anticipate (increasing reaction speed), track speed and Neji having fast movement speed and agility leads me to believe he can seamlessly dodge KN0 too.


But we clearly see the results of what happened off panel and that Neji's hand positions and Kido having his tenketsu closed. Lets not forget Kido had already countered 64 palms before and as such if Neji had not been extremely fast with the 64palms he did there, there was a risk of Kido countering him again.




Bro. You said Neji couldn't jump out because of the area they covered. The distance between Neji and where those daggers were launched from is over 50m. How on earth is it possible that daggers coming from over 50 m out would converge on Neji's space denying him the ability to jump out without the daggers being fast?



The daggers aren't featless. Neji dodged multiples of those fast daggers point blank while Sasuke dodged strikes coming from a distance.




This is something you need to realize yourself. How exactly do you want an author to denote speed in his manga? By using panels. You're using the fact that the daggers weren't shown travelling the distance to indicate they could have been slow when we've always used panels to know how fast things are in the manga.

Kimimaro unleashed a bone forest but Gaara was able to get himself and Lee airborne before they were impaled. Just because the process where Gaara did this wasn't shown, does that mean the bone forest was not fast?




- First of all the daggers need to be fast to be able to cover an area to restrict Neji from jumping out since he can see them the moment they enter his 50 m range
- Second, the daggers need to be faster than fast to not lose KE as they are travelling from over 50m out with the sole purpose of impaling someone.



That's the most logical conclusion to get to but for some reason you don't just want to accept. Neji could not dodge the daggers that entered his blindspot just like the arrows because he couldn't see them bro. And then from the scan which you keep downplaying, we have this:

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The daggers that Kido launched got to Neji faster than the dust at his feet from a previous wave could settle.

Seriously man, really think this through. If the daggers were cloaked or hidden and controlled like the arrows, then you will have a point but they weren't.. meaning Neji can see these daggers the moment they enter his 50 m range. If they were not fast, there is absolutely no way they would be able to cover Neji's area and prevent him from jumping out.



Launched projectiles are launched projectiles.





@underlined broo...Focusing chakra into his blindspot now translates as seeing through his blindspot? He said he could detect with chakra and looking at where the chakra reaches in the link you provided, you think with the speed of the arrow, it won't be nothing less than a split second detection? Not to mention if he could detect those daggers in his blindspot, he obviously still wasn't dodging them was he??




You do have a point with the bold..i wasn't seeing it that way before lol...But like i've always said, that's if Sasuke touches him in the first place.




Naruto doesn't have Neji's reaction speed though :lol So of course he'll get hit especially when he's allowing sharingan read his movements and giving Sasuke offensive timing :lol




For only a brief moment of course? And honestly using Lee's speed would be a bad move here wouldn't it as if he doesn't defeat Neji in a short time, he'll lose his stamina and become slower.




Moves Neji knows about as has been sparring against said moves for at the very least a year. How does greater reaction speed help against someone who waits until the last minute to counter? 1G and 2G Lee would only need a couple of hits to put Neji down. As far as we know, that never happened meaning Lee who has superior striking speed at this point couldn't tag Neji.



Gated Lee tanks pain from gentle fist and has enough time in gated mode to pummel Neji but that as we know never happened. And like you stated before, it'll take more than just gentle fist to put down gated Lee.

you know your talking to a troll and a sasuke troll that! There the most stupid and illogical of all troll and the most aggressive

 

[KidGamer65]

Kakashi was in a disadvantageous position that's why he couldn't dodge. Again, you yourself admitted if Sasuke gets parried it'll be GG. You bringing up sage mode and etc is irrelevant since they weren't in disadvantageous positions in the first place. And is movement speed what's needed to avoid strikes in cqc? Seems to me its more body speed (flexibility/agility) that's needed. If not Neji should not have been able to land strikes on Lee who is way faster than him in Unweighted and Gated forms.

Lmao I suggest you wipe your eyes, get some help from a friend and then read that again, because I literally just addressed this and you not being able to read what is clearly stated for you properly.

I-rel-le-vant

Not sure how many times I have to state this before it gets through your thick skull. Stop talking about this irrelevant nonsense when it has nothing to do with the point being made in this section of the post. The arguments you are addressing have been made in other parts of this post. Jesus Christ. How hard can this be?

Sasuke not having any notable striking speed comes in with a strike/punch/kick and Neji doesn't parry it despite him parrying strikes in all the cqc we've seen him involved in? Yet Sasuke who we haven't seen parrying any strikes in canon is able to easily parry Neji's strikes?

Quit asking me questions and start supporting your arguments. Bold is terrible terrible logic. Because Neji has dominated weaker people in that manner he'll do so to Sasuke? Are you even reading what you post before you post it? :lol

I've brought you scans/feats (as you'd like) of Neji parrying attacks yet you still ask me to bring feats? What do you want then? A scan of Neji actually parrying Sasuke? Because it seems that's what you want me to provide bro.

No, you've brought me scans of Neji parrying Hinata as proof he can parry Sasuke. Don't play dumb here. This logic is equivalent to saying "Since Ay destroyed Ribcage Susanoo, he can destroy Perfect Susanoo because they are both Susanoo" even though that disingenuous comparison doesn't take the different strengths of the two things being compared here.

But I fully expect you to either ignore this comparison or not be able to understand at this point of the argument.

You've yet to make me really understand this scenario of Neji not being able to parry Sasuke's strikes man.

Because either fanboyism or plain ignorance is preventing you from debating like you should. A claim isn't right because you want it to be. You've provided no evidence that Neji can parry all of Sasuke's attacks yet you are actually sitting here in disbelief that your argument isn't being treated like it's valid.

Come on now. :lol

@bold what?

Spoiler

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Middle panels show him spinning to land the last 32 strikes to make it 64 overall...what 16 strikes are you talking about?

The last thing we see before he landed 32 strikes is him spinning towards Naruto. The stance you're showing me is after he takes the last strikes..because the dust you highlighted is showing Neji completed the last 32 strikes mid-moving forward.

The middle shows no spin, it shows him thrusting forward. :lol The only spins Neji does during 64 palms are at the beginning stages of the jutsu. Hilarious how you are saying he's spinning when you can literally only see his head, part of his torso and his hand. :lol :lol :lol :lol

-Neji thrusts forward.
-Said stance is a result.

Fact.

What you're telling me is the 32 strikes to complete 64 we see here are not consecutive? Are you being serious with this? We can clearly see it's taken a single panel to complete both 16 and 32 consecutive strikes. So much so the effects from having tenketsu forcefully closed with jyuken is still evident on Naruto's body in the form of number of strikes on Naruto's body at the very end.

How else do you want fast consecutive strikes to be drawn in a manga if not by using panels to depict time?

Hilarious. Here goes your inability to read basic text again. I've stated that they are consecutive. Over and over and over again. The rest is irrelevant as panel time=/=Actual time. Asking me irrelevant questions won't change the fact that the number of panels elapsed=/=The amount of time that has actually elapsed. All panels is show you chronological order.

You really shouldn't try to change the wordings of the dictionary definition you brought. It clearly said countermove..not counter attack.

So the parry Sasuke does is one that doesn't have a counter-attack? You say this but have kept giving Sasuke this form of parry counter attack ability he has never shown.

A counter attack is a type of counter move. So stop nitpicking and start countering the arguments presented in front of you.

If you can't understand a concept as basic as this and continue to reply with nonsensical retorts then that's going to be on you. I can only waste my time repeating my arguments for so long.

-I've described what a parry is.
-I've described the difference between Neji's "parry" and a regular parry.
-Yet you keep responding with the same exact arguments.

"the parry Sasuke does is one that doesn't have a counter attack?"

Where in the world are you getting this from? :lol I specifically stated that a parry is a counter attack used to knock away an incoming attack. Nothing more, nothing less.

@underlined is then weird because you have Neji who trains in taijutsu unable to parry Sasuke's strikes without giving logical reasons.

''Sasuke attacking with a regular strike/punch/kick doesn't prove that Neji can easily parry him. Nonsense in it's purest form.''

Not really. I said that Neji can't parry Sasuke's attacks in the sense you are talking about, not the sense I'm talking about. But again, I expect another nonsense reply to a basic point like this.

How do you come to a conclusion with the bold from the underlined? Missed attacks result in a parry? What does that even mean?

That's what I'm asking for proof of. That's your claim. :lol So prove it and stop asking me dumb questions as if I'm the one who stated/implied that Sasuke missing would mean that he stumbles and loses his footing.

Try reading it slower next time, because I'm done breaking down simple English sentences to you from here on out.

And seriously those scans i brought showed stumbling from parried and dodged attacks. Will you have me post them again?

No, the scans you posted showed them stumbling from PARRIED attacks ONLY. Not dodged attacks.

Neji in all cqc we've seen him in either dodges or parries with none of those we've seen him fight fast enough to force him into a block. SRA Neji >>> CE Neji in all physical abilities so logically Sasuke would need to be fast too (striking speed) to even be hopeful of tagging Neji.

Addressed.

- Now that i think about it, you keep saying reaction speed. Isn't reaction speed more useful for dodging attacks than actually landing hits? And come on man...i showed you how gentle fist wouldn't be enough to take down gated Lee as gates make him fight through pain. And your reply reeked of approval.

No, it's not. :lol Not sure how you came to that conclusion. Reactions don't need to be defensive, they can be offensive or defensive, and no, you haven't shown anything. Meanwhile I have a scan of Gai stating that if Lee wants to beat Neji, he needs a combo that'd prevent him from being touched.

What's even funnier is that you misread (a running theme in your posts) what I stated there. Who said that Gentle Fist isn't enough to take Lee down? I said it ALONE isn't WHY Neji wins. Two different meanings there bud.

Except you are of the opinion Sasuke is superior to Neji in hand to hand?


- VoTE Sasuke is only superior to Lee in reactions. And the reactions itself is based on movement made by the opponent and i've proven clearly Neji waits till the last moment when his opponent is in range for a counter attack to move.

And this has been addressed over and over again as that is the same argument as your parry business.

-snip-

Addressed above.

The only way i can seem to disprove this opinion of yours is if i bring a scan of Neji parrying Sasuke and as we both know, that's impossible.

No, bring me feats of him doing something equivalent to someone on Sasuke's level or bring me feats that allow you to make such a statement. Not a hard task. Don't act like you need to perform the impossible just because what you are looking for isn't in the Manga.

:wesobi: If you re-read that last post, you'll see i specifically said "Neji moving despite having 2 holes in him"...Where did i talk about the length of Neji surviving in that last post?

Spoiler

du·ra·ble (do͝or′ə-bəl, dyo͝or′-)
adj.
1.
a. Capable of withstanding wear and tear or decay: a durable fabric.
b. Made to withstand repeated use over a relatively long period, usually several years or more: durable goods such as washing machines and dryers.
2. Able to perform or compete over a long period, as by avoiding or overcoming injuries: a durable fullback.
3. Lasting; stable: a durable friendship.

Hah. Amazing that you ignore the definition that fits what I am referring to, what is important in this match, and what everyone on this forum uses durability as.

"Capable of withstanding wear and tear"

Susanoo can tank BD, thus it's durable. Neji getting a hole in his chest doesn't mean he's durable. Durability in the sense you are referring to is irrelevant to this argument.

No. They clearly showed stumbling from parried and dodged attacks.

Addressed and fixed.

Except we have already gone through this phase to which your reply implied agreement.

This was addressed. Read that again.

@bold except it doesn't because High speed taijutsu and high speed combo are two different things here. If i asked why high speed taijutsu wasn't said as the secret to defeating Neji, what would be your answer?

No it's not. Learn how to read. I've already addressed this and you repeating your idiotic interpretation (that was, again, addressed) isn't a counter it's you conceding your argument.

Spoiler

Are you kidding me? Everything he is talking about there refers to a single thing, Ura Renge. Please don't even try and deny that. He says "Extreme Lotus". Then he says "It (It=Extreme Lotus) is high speed Taijutsu that CAN'T EVEN BE TOUCHED". Then he says "THIS (This=Extreme Lotus, again) high speed combo is the answer to defeating Neji".

What's worse is that I gave you a helping hand and broke down that sentence(s) for you and you are still coming at me with this nonsense.

Lmao and this argument was actually going pretty good, until we started the usual shenanigans that posters on here love to pull.

This is because you are clearly using the fact Sasuke reacted to Naruto's movement speed as a base to conclude he would be able to evade all of Neji's attacks when this vs is based on cqc?
Sasuke's reaction isn't superior to Neji's in cqc.

''All it means is that the strikes are consecutive and fast'' but you hold the opinion they don't impact in the same panel?

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When we don't have spillage of said multiple strikes in a subsequent panel, doesn't that mean all the strikes impacted in the same panel where they are shown?

Impacting in the same panel=/=Impacting at the same time. Lmao. Not sure how hard that concept is for you to grasp.

Stop trying to manipulate meanings and words..No where does the DB say the bold. It says launch a series of high speed combo not 'target.' If you're in range...you'll be launched at with high speed combo not targeted.

-Kido was fast enough to escape from Neji's Los quickly..But when he was in range for 64 palms at the beginning of the fight, he couldn't move out of the way.

I'm sorry, but are you trolling or are you really this daft? LAUNCHING AT AND TARGETING SOMETHING ARE THE SAME EXACT THING SO WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU EVEN ARGUING HERE? If a launch a rocket at a person, I targeted him and fired at him. Neji targeting and then attacking someone doesn't mean that he'll automatically hit them so cut this BS argument out, you don't make sense, at all.

So Kidomaru escaping Neji's LoS from a distance means that he can dodge 64 palms (an attack, contrary to Neji not attacking him in the beginning) from close range? :lol

What exactly is Sasuke's level? Superior strength and possibly a minute of faster raw movement speed. All this is similar to a gated Lee who Neji still defeats. (Gates make Lee tank pain from gentle fist as stated before so Gentle fist isn't all Neji needed to defeat gated Lee). The only thing Sasuke is superior in to any form of Lee is reactions and Neji who makes his movements/counter attack at the last minute is a counter to this is he not?

-Superior strength.
-Superior movement speed.
-Superior reaction speed.

Neji making his moves at the last minute doesn't automatically mean that Sasuke's own reaction speed is irrelevant. Not even sure how you came to that conclusion.

Sasuke comes in with a strike with the confidence he'll hit Neji..but Neji doesn't move until the last minute. Even if sharingan can read counter attacks (which you still haven't answered btw) what happened with the motion Sasuke was already coming in with as at this point he would be in range to be decked by Neji. Does Sasuke have the maneuverability to stop himself mid attack and react/dodge/jump back? This is what Lee said at the very beginning..Even if you see it, it means nothing if your body doesn't have the speed to react?
Neji's style in cqc with waiting till the last moment to counter reduces the possibility of reacting to a near zero.

All these seem like scenarios you haven't considered tbh.

This has literally been addressed. You repeating how Neji's fighting style works isn't going to prove that he can apply it against Sasuke.

I don't consider impossible scenarios and/or scenarios where the person I'm arguing with has failed to support happening with actual evidence.

Here we are again despite you saying this was irrelevant a post or two ago.

Which is faster man?

-Outright dodging or
-Releasing chakra from all your tenketsu a few feet from you in all directions and then spinning to counter a shock-wave with the ability to cut like we saw with Sasuke getting cut?

If you knew how to read you'd know I said it was irrelevant for that specific part of the post.

Neji spinning in motion is easier than him dodging. Striked out parts are irrelevant to the speed of Rotation, and the bold doesn't take Neji any noticeable time at all so of course, you make zero sense mentioning it.

This is plain denial though as we have a scan of Kido releasing daggers and they appearing in Neji's front almost immediately covering that entire distance in no time.

Which is again, based on nothing considering you seem to be above the foolish belief that panels=time elapsed. An addressed argument is an addressed argument. Repeating the same defeated nonsense isn't going to prove your point.

The daggers aren't featless.

Your opinions aren't fact.

Well true..I was just looking at the complex part of it lol..Afterall a brother and half brother are brothers of someone but both words are different on a complex level despite both having the word 'brother'.

Lee is faster in striking.

Who cares if it's striking or movement? That's besides the point. Lee was faster and closer, thus he hit Sasuke while Haku was read. It doesn't get any simpler than that.

It was a counter attack lol.

No shit sherlock. Again, you aren't reading my posts properly. The point is, it being a counter attack doesn't mean that the nature of the movement wasn't an offensive nature.

I really still don't see an answer as to why the Sharingan couldn't read a counter attack in this post though.

I don't see any retort from you so I'll just assume you are conceding this point entirely.

Unfortunately Kishi didn't focus on the byakugan as much as i would have liked but he did make it known the byakugan

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. As to what extent is definitely unknown but being able to anticipate (increasing reaction speed), track speed and Neji having fast movement speed and agility leads me to believe he can seamlessly dodge KN0 too.

That's not precognition on the level of Sharingan so mentioning it again is irrelevant. Increasing reaction speed=/=Increasing reaction speed like Sharingan does. Neji being able to seamlessly dodge KN0 and dodge KN1 like Sasuke has, is of course, based on nothing.

But we clearly see the results of what happened off panel and that Neji's hand positions and Kido having his tenketsu closed. Lets not forget Kido had already countered 64 palms before and as such if Neji had not been extremely fast with the 64palms he did there, there was a risk of Kido countering him again.

We've seen how fast Neji does 64 palms ON PANEL. Stop mentioning off panel feats as if you knew what went down off panel.

Bro. You said Neji couldn't jump out because of the area they covered. The distance between Neji and where those daggers were launched from is over 50m. How on earth is it possible that daggers coming from over 50 m out would converge on Neji's space denying him the ability to jump out without the daggers being fast?

:lol Them coming from 50m away is irrelevant when Neji can't see them until they are actually in his range, thus 50m away.

The daggers aren't featless. Neji dodged multiples of those fast daggers point blank while Sasuke dodged strikes coming from a distance.

An argument you've yet to actually support with an argument that makes even an iota of sense.

This is something you need to realize yourself. How exactly do you want an author to denote speed in his manga? By using panels. You're using the fact that the daggers weren't shown travelling the distance to indicate they could have been slow when we've always used panels to know how fast things are in the manga.

It isn't so because you say it's so pal. Number of panels=/=Elapsed time. That fact will never change.

Kimimaro unleashed a bone forest but Gaara was able to get himself and Lee airborne before they were impaled. Just because the process where Gaara did this wasn't shown, does that mean the bone forest was not fast?

An irrelevant question and scenario.

- First of all the daggers need to be fast to be able to cover an area to restrict Neji from jumping out since he can see them the moment they enter his 50 m range
- Second, the daggers need to be faster than fast to not lose KE as they are travelling from over 50m out with the sole purpose of impaling someone.

-When they are that many in number, no, they don't need to be exceptionally fast. :lol
-Back to this dumb argument again? Being able to travel 50m says shit about it's speed.

That's the most logical conclusion to get to but for some reason you don't just want to accept. Neji could not dodge the daggers that entered his blindspot just like the arrows because he couldn't see them bro. And then from the scan which you keep downplaying, we have this:

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The daggers that Kido launched got to Neji faster than the dust at his feet from a previous wave could settle.

Seriously man, really think this through. If the daggers were cloaked or hidden and controlled like the arrows, then you will have a point but they weren't.. meaning Neji can see these daggers the moment they enter his 50 m range. If they were not fast, there is absolutely no way they would be able to cover Neji's area and prevent him from jumping out.

Holy shit I really can't take this guy seriously. This has been addressed above, below and in my last post. Neji dodging a bunch of daggers doesn't put him at the level where he easily dodges all of Sasuke's attacks. You repeating the same defeated arguments won't change that.

Launched projectiles are launched projectiles.

This isn't a retort to anything I've stated.

@underlined broo...Focusing chakra into his blindspot now translates as seeing through his blindspot? He said he could detect with chakra and looking at where the chakra reaches in the link you provided, you think with the speed of the arrow, it won't be nothing less than a split second detection? Not to mention if he could detect those daggers in his blindspot, he obviously still wasn't dodging them was he??

:lol Stop. Arguing. Against. THE MANGA. It's getting pretty pathetic.

Focusing chakra into his blindspot means that he knows where it's coming. Him not being able to see it is irrelevant as he still detected it coming through another method so stop bringing up irrelevant points. Neji detected the arrow, and couldn't dodge. Neji saw the other daggers coming, and he could dodge.

And of course the underlined is nothing. If he had focused chakra into his blindspot he would've known that the daggers were coming thus he'd be able to avoid them as the only reason he couldn't dodge in the first place is because he did not know it was coming. Undeniable FACT.

Naruto doesn't have Neji's reaction speed though :lol So of course he'll get hit especially when he's allowing sharingan read his movements and giving Sasuke offensive timing :lol

Hmm, what does that look like? Oh wait, another statement based on nothing at all.

For only a brief moment of course? And honestly using Lee's speed would be a bad move here wouldn't it as if he doesn't defeat Neji in a short time, he'll lose his stamina and become slower.

I've already explained how he'd use Lee's speed and why it's time limit doesn't cost him the fight and of course I've gotten zero retort.

Moves Neji knows about as has been sparring against said moves for at the very least a year. How does greater reaction speed help against someone who waits until the last minute to counter? 1G and 2G Lee would only need a couple of hits to put Neji down. As far as we know, that never happened meaning Lee who has superior striking speed at this point couldn't tag Neji.

This has been addressed.




Lol it's funny how fast this guy's quality of argumentation plummeted. :lol

-Ignoring multiple Manga statements.
-Using panels in a still Manga to determine speed.

:lol And more of course. Make any more arguments on defeated points and I'll just strike them out. No reason to address them again when you aren't bringing anything new and/or worthwhile to the table. If you are going to repeat anything at all don't even bother quoting me tbh.

 

[Tantalus Thief]

you know your talking to a troll and a sasuke troll that! There the most stupid and illogical of all troll and the most aggressive

lmao you have no right to call anyone a troll when you have 7 red bars.
OP: Sasuke but it'd be pretty close.

 

[unknownvillain1254]

lmao you have no right to call anyone a troll when you have 7 red bars.
OP: Sasuke but it'd be pretty close.

see thats troll logic how does a bar reflect my intention your have a green bar but your till a idiot

 

[InfiniteMugen]

Sasuke takes this, 3t was able to fight on par with cloaked naruto in taijutsu and I highly doubt neji has that kind of speed or power at that point. Precog helps sasuke avoid strikes to his tenketsu and he's got katon as a long range to boot. This isn't even factoring in cm mode

 

[KidGamer65]

Still can't believe what I just read.

-Says Gai WASN'T referring to Extreme Louts when he said "High Speed Taijutsu" (wut)

-Thinks those fodder daggers are faster than Kidomaru's arrow.

-Thinks panels=time elapsed.

-Thinks Neji parries and dodges all of Sasuke's attacks because he dodged fodder daggers and because he parried Hinata's attacks.

-Thinks 64 palms is instant and that Neji can strike 32 times at the same exact time.

-Thinks being in the range of the 64 palms circle means you automatically get hit. lol Guess if JJ Madara is caught in CE Neji's circle he'll get hit if he doesn't get out of said circle)

-Keeps on misreading/misinterpreting/ignoring my posts.

:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

 

[Lawlermelon]

Sasuke wins always and forever. Neji was better than Sasuke before the manga started and as soon as the chunin exams started Neji was always behind Naruto and Sasuke. too bad, so sad.

 

[Unorthodox]

The irony.

What irony lol the fact that your losing and you cannot accept or the fact that you lie when you post scans saying a protor said one thing when he clearly said another you must take me for a fool, Never lost a debate to a hyuga fan aint bouta start today lets get it.

I never denied u idiot , after Naruto got the chakra amp he never directly confronted Neji in Taijutsu choosing to blitz to the side rather than go straight forward and the only time he did was when he Expanded his chakra cloak widely which means Taijutsu was impossible for Neji at that point so u didn't even counter anything as usual fool.

SMH same ass arguments that has been shitted on repeatedly lol on the scan i posted Naruto chakra cloak was as big as it ever was going to get during the fight

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Naruto attacked Neji head up he even asked if he loved close combat so much to bring it on because he knew with his speed and power neji taijutsu would not work and it did'nt. Naruto cannot expand his chakra especially not in the state he was in also he made no hand sigh to show any sighs of that your just grasping at straws and trying to make the best scenario where neji does not get overwhelmed in cqc.

I do think ur dumb actually , Neji saw the expanded chakra to which he used kaiten to defend against the expanded chakra , explosion happens then kishi has Genma note the fact that Naruto released some crazy power and that Neji must be dead/defeated which makes it obvious that he was referring to that instance to anyone who has a brain.

You know your losing a debate when you keep harping over the same argument lol especially when its been shitted on by multiple scans and portrayal smh. Chakra did not expand neji was surprise at Naruto's speed and by his words which hit home for him, the proctor was clearly talking about him using the red chakra to counter gentle fist blocking Naruto's chakra your trying to say he was referring to the moment of impact is just your own misinterpretation of what happened and because it helps your arguments. So your the one with the burden of proof my friend.

He did wat he thought was best after seeing Naruto expand a Wall of Chakra around himself which caught him off-guard u clown and who said anything about superior speed.

He did what he only could do lol "he did what he thought best" if these arnt the worst argument iv seen i posted scan neji only uses rotation when his taijutsu fails or he is to slow to dodge you have yet to refute that so im going to guess thats your way of conceding.

Ur Completely wrong again as per usual , Neji choosing to use Kaiten doesn't mean he cant dodge said attack, its just best to use kaiten than to not use it in most cases. Check wat Neji says at the bottom left panel.

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Based on ur nonsense logic Neji shouldn't have been able to avoid these attacks much less simply , if he didn't use kaiten especially since Kido said neji had more attacks to dodge compared to the scan u linked where he did use kaiten but yet he did avoid them.

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SMH stop playing so dumb neji could dodge those falling spiders he chose to use rotation because he thought it would swat them back but it could not because the webs slowed him from spinning but this does not even remotely counter my post because the falling spiders would not cause damage just tangle him up plus their were fairly slow and your scan falls flat on its ass because could not dodge them as easy as he though

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this shows that when his taijutsu and dodging fails he resorts to rotation but the fact i gotta spell this out for you shows the level is stupidity your using.

Manga disagrees that Neji wasn't caught off-guard by Naruto expanding his Chakra suddenly and manga agrees with me that Naruto did expand a physical wall of chakra around himself enough so for it to physically clash with kaiten and catch Neji off-guard sice he didn't know Naruto had that ability , speed wasn't the issue , not in this fight so i could care less wat u believe tbh.

I laugh when people run out of arguments so the pass it off as manga said this or that lol, Neji did not know Naruto could expand his chakra even though Naruto just did seconds before him attacking stop it you sound like a big fool. Naruto did not expand anything especially since he was not even trying to Naruto is not smart enough to even think like that lol. Speed clearly was a problem hence the reason kishi made it a purpose for Neji to say Naruto got faster.

I already handled ur nonsense here , sappy logic at best.

You didnt do shit but complain your way through my post lol just give it up you lost you'll never beat me sir.

What is there to debunk? the chakra there was obviously not big or strong enough to be as physical as the one that clashed with Kaiten since Naruto himself dashed towards Neji to which they both physically clashed without Neji getting pushed away as he would've been if Naruto had Expanded his Chakra cloak here as he did against Kaiten.

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When he ran at Neji in the later instance the Cloak literally expanded on the bottom left panel so there is ntn to debunk since it already has been debunked by the manga itself.

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SMH this is just the same shit i already replied to above this weak ass arguments are getting annoying now lol. Look at the panel you posted Naruto in movement when he moves at good speed his cloak lags off him

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now when he jumps at Neji

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because it lags off his body in movement

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showing an inconsistency in size so your scan proves nothing and don't even bring up the rocks arguments because that was happening already

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so your argument is shit buddy.

My points prove that Naruto was never fast enough to blitz Neji in taijutsu and him being forced to use Kaiten last minute was due to Expanded Chakra cloak but im glad ur dumb ass finally understands that Naruto released a wall of Chakra at that moment so ur above points about Naruto's cloak being that big from the start has now turned to ash even tho they were already dumb af to begin with.

Please quote me saying Naruto could blitz Neji ill be waiting. debunked everything you claimed or whatever you thought you were saying. My arguments being dumb lol because Naruto expand his chakra for rotation is'nt even though you claim Neji using rotation was a last minute decision gtfoh you cannot even make up your mind then you call my arguments stupid first Neji could dodge because he's faster than he only used rotation when Naruto amped his chakra for rotation? Like what get out of here.

The bold is based on literally ntn as usual and when the heck did i say anything about FOD KN0 which is by far the weakest KN0 in the series? I said CE KN0 which is above CE2 Base Sasuke by a good amount so where the heck is ur proof that Transformed Gaara is faster than CE KN0 who far outclasses CE2 Sasuke by a good distance???

The bold has alot to do without, Again i don't know why your even bringing up base Sasuke please tell me what argument did i ever try to use him in or for lol. CE2 KN0 outclasses Sasuke? Naruto himself admitted Sasuke was the only one who could take on Gaara at that point or atleast he knew he was no match

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Which implies KN0 Naruto is not stronger than Sasuke much less that Gaara.

Even Sakura of all people was able to pull a Kunai and react to Gaara's blitz and Base Naruto was outright able to stomp a superior version with a bunch of clones much less KN0 from his battle with Neji who would run circles around transformed Gaara. Ur logic is trash and ur points are worse than trash ,Gaara's speed is only relevant when he propels himself forward with his claws by using trees , CE KN0 stomps the crap outa CE Sasuke and transformed Gaara just like im doing to u in this debate.

Reaction/= Movement so your point about Sakura is irrelevant when all she had to do is turn around and even then Sasuke's statement already proved how fast Gaara was and him blitzing past naruto is proof of his speed so you trying to debunk it with the sakura argument is pathetic lol. SMH naruto only got the beat on Gaara because he had no where to go being in a forest surrounded by clones in a 360 and even with that he was swatting them casually until the

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that's the only time Naruto got the beat on him. Stop it with the nonsense out manuevering someone his cannot see they're backside is not impressive especially when he tricked him with a clone feint that's like me saying Boruto can react to momo because he stabbed his eye with a clone feint. Naruto would get tossed by Sasuke at that point in a 1v1 he was just better equipped at fighting jin Gaara in his base because of his clones than fighting him with kn0 in no clones like he did to defeat neji. Stomping in this debate is the most funny bs you have said yet and you said alot of nonsense lol.

Sasuke's performance against Oro is irrelevant and Sasuke forcing Lee to take off his weights is pure BS speculation with no logical proof and in regards to ur life and death nonsense, Neji was dtermined to not lose against Naruto and if it was life or death u have literally zero proof that Neji would've been able to stand after Naruto smacked him down

SMH How is it irrelevant because he performed better than Naruto lol? Sasuke saying he can see clearly shows his precog got better and his movements due to him traping a jobbing orochimaru also Orchimaru confirms his statement by saying he can read me now even surprising orochimaru with this statement as well, determined not to lose does not equal fighting for your survival lol. How i know well lets look at it neji used his 64 palms twice and rotation many of times meaning he expended much more chakra fighting kido and lets not even get started with the injuries Neji used every last ounce of his being in that fight then we look at them post fight he was talking and standing fine he was out for days after the kido fight he thought he would die when the fight was over.

FOD Sasuke isn't anywhere near FOD KN0 or Weighted Lee and u hav not proven this wrong , u only proved ur hard on for Sasuke is close to that of Oro if u think so.

Already shitted on your statements on this lol Sasuke did better against Orochimaru thus putting him above on the same level as KNO Naruto FOD you denying it well because KN0 Naruto is KN0 Naruto is shitty logic with nothing but your dumbass word supporting your argument, prove to me how Naruto was better because your the one looking salty my dude.

I was wrong there but it does ntn to hurt my point , Naruto was busy beating the crap out of Oro's giant snake so him getting blasted by katon is irrelevant especially since Oro got rid of his snake in order to test his hard on for Sasuke uchiha. The rest of ur BS is irrelevant as usual.

Of course you were wrong yay me. Naruto hit the snake once and orochimaru casually spit fire towards him which left Naruto all battered up

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shows that with little effort he can extort KN0 Orochimaru did not raise his fighting level during that time and Sasuke managed to get one over on him. Orochimaru wanting to test Sasuke does not mean anything especially if your trying to correlate that to Sasuke doing better than Naruto did. You brought up the snake argument Orochimaru wanted to fight Sasuke with the snake hence the reason he attacked him with it Naruto just jump in the way then he poofed it because he got bored of it not because so he could fight Sasuke 1v1 hell Sasuke already fought and beat his snake prior to that. And Naruto did jack shit to the snake he punched it but it did not even flinched so again your point is moot.

How the heck could he catch Haku when he doesn't have Sharingan to read his movements through the mirrors like Sasuke u clown? I agree that KN0 would obviously be stronger at VOTE which i never denied but Base VOTE Naruto being able to beat ZA KN0 Naruto in a purely physical contest needs proof since one Naruto has much superior stats granted by Kurama while the other has superior base stats compared to the base of the other , and in regards to ur killing intent nonsense.

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Clearly Naruto had actual killing intent against Haku and none against Sasuke only rage which he also had a ample supply of against Haku.

When your as fast or faster than someone why would you need sharingan to read their movements this post does not begin to make since in that regard if Naruto could stomp Sasuke as you claim his speed would be tiers above his meaning catching haku would be child's play and he would not need a sharingan to track his movements if he was really that much above Sasuke a man who can track Haku movements and intercept him. No one said anything about pure physical strength stop i said he would beat him down if they fought and physically he should be well above him to his feats during the ZA arc are nothing compared to his vote feats. Kurama boosted someone at that level compared to his vote level stats are meaningless when vote Naruto is already to far above his level to start from so no.

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-In VOTE he used 1 tail because he got stomped by Sasuke and kurama gave him more chakra , ntn about killing intent there buddy.
-Nobody denied that VOTE KN0 would stomp ZA KN0 so stop beating around and bringing up irrelevant comparisons.

How many times haved Naruto said he was going to kill someone? and i did not deny his killing intent i just said he did not mean seeing how he stopped in mid punch because he saw haku the boy he tailed in the forest for like 3 pages so how bloodlusted was he really? Not enough to say he was more angrier at VOTE he used everything and some to try and win and still lost.

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I never said all KN0 are equivalent which doesn't even make sense since i stressed that Naruto was using much more chakra gainst Haku than he did against Oro lol.

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Based off a hollow statement that did not hold up because he changed his resolve the moment he saw Haku's face and him using more chakra still does not mean shit since FOD KN0 >>> WAVE ARC KN0 Naruto.

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Lee thought it was a one versus one? anyways skill is irrelevant here since Naruto has the speed , power and chakra to blitz the heck outa them , heck Dosu was scared as shit after seeing how big CM1 Sasuke's chakra was much less KN0 who was destroying the surrounding area and pushing back Haku with pure chakra not to mention having his Chakra sensed by Zabuza and Kakashi. Read and compare every scan here and think about wat ur saying u dame fool.

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Sigh everyone always act likes that i guess KN0 Naruto is deadly to Hiruzen because when he senses that chakra it brought back nightmares to him no. Sasuke took out the wind guy 1v1 and stop comparing the 2 KN0 Naruto at the time would have lost to that Sasuke to so it would not have mattered. At Vote Sasuke describes the CM as the equal to his 3 tomoe sharingan in the boost it gives him powerwise

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put it like this BASE Sasuke FOD > Base Naruto or roughly equal to same with KN0 and CM add 2 tomoe and Sasuke wins overall that shits on your entire post. To different times that same unleashed power was nothing in FOD while CM was child bye.

Dosu was only able to do that after Lee used the lotus and was feeling the backclash u idiot , are u really going to compare that Lee to a fresh KN0 Naruto?? Lmao.

Dosu would have done it his first strike if lee did not use the branch and did you hear how is jutsu works just by flicking it and running up on lee he could have ended it, Lee went for his strongest attack right away because he knew how deadly he was. Nothing implies KN0 can replicate these feats so your points are still dumb as shit.

Zaku saw wat Lee was planning to do to Dosu then took steps to prevent it AND Sakura fooled zaku with substitutions , KN0 would blitz the crap outa them much less Zaku alone lmao clown.

Zaku did not soften the ground until they we're going down so what are you even talking about.? Boruto fooled Momoshiki so anyone can be fooled shutup with the pathetic nit picking nonsense lol. a Serious Zaku would mop Sakura without a touch stop playing these games. Proof KN0 can blitz cause all i see is blitz with no argumentation behind it.

Show dame proof of this u idiot and stop acting so high and mighty because im not talking about VOTE KN0 im talking about Base.

Show proof Naruto got Stomped by Weighted lee because he was sloth slow compared to lee's speed. CE2 he was coming close to Neji and even managed to dodge his attack, His roof fight with Sasuke was equal to unweighted lee he fought fairly even and so on that fact i need to bring fourth these events shows the lack of common since being used by you or is it just ignorance, A main character having the same speed throughout the entire part 1 series is ludacris i don't know why im taking you serious also please show some proof of your claims all i see his KN0 blitz blitz shutup and prove it. Also i don't know why your talking about base Sasuke none of my arguments had nothing to do with him so why do you keep bringing him up.

U have zero proof that he actually released more chakra at VOTE , but yes he still would be much stronger at using KN0 at VOTE due to base stats scaling , but nobody denied this and Naruto had the eyes and Claws against Haku so gtfo and read the manga.

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He used 1 tails nothing more to say here.

Its debatable if he was more angry or not in VOTE since he literally thought Sasuke died against Haku which allowed him to release a massive amount of chakra while fueled by killing intent and anger.
Naruto was in full control of his KN0 against Sasuke , while against Haku the dude was complely driven by killing intent and animal instinct with pure rage.

Animals don't stop the kill because they recognize someone who they talked to for 5 minutes lol. Naruto control over his chakra had got better that's what he tried for specifically with Jiraiya so i don't know why you brought that up you dumbass every time after his neji fight he had control over his fox chakra unless he went to a new stage he had never accessed before so this post is shit to the 5th power.

I already covered all this crap and in regards to the bold thats completely irrelevant since Naruto's goal was to beat Sasuke into submission while against Haku he was fighting like a complete beast then snapped out of it after seeing Haku's calm face.

Which means his killing intent was not a crazy as you think. addressed.

Saying ZA Base Sasuke could possibly be on par with ZA KN0 just proves how much of a retard u are.

When did i ever stat this? please tell me show me a quote because your a dumbass i said Sasuke with 2 tomoe during the wave arc was KN0 Naruto's equal stop being so phucking dumb.

Show me scans of Sasuke trying to read Oro's movement before or GTO with ur nonsense , stay wanking fool.

Sasuke saying he can see now tell you he could not before and im not posted that scan again.

Again Naruto doesn't have sharingan to read moves so why the heck wouldn't he be surprised after using a chakra roar only to see that Haku slipped by him in that instance?? Sasuke would be able to see this because of Sharingan.

If your already faster than someone reading their movements is easy and the way you talk about KN0 Naruto im positive you beilive that so why would he need sharingan when according to you he can blitz Sasuke who intercepted Haku this he doesnt have sharingan nonsense is not cutting and it does not make sense at all. He surprised by Haku's speed the chakra roar was a counter attack to the needles his surprise was that Haku was gone from his location shown why Naruto was looking around this even gave Haku a sense that he could strike because Naruto was lost to where he was.

Ur point only stands on ur hard on for Sasuke.
-ZA KN0 Naruto is tiers faster than Haku and ZA Sasuke , stay wanking clown stay wanking till ur palms bleed.

If this was true why would he need sharingan on someone who he moves tiers faster than? makes 0 sense like i said being tiers faster than someone your not losing track of them and the battlefield not once so again this shows how bad your post falls flat on its ass. Lol tiers though even though half dead 1 tomoe Sasuke performed equally as well if not better since haku was to scared to strike him head on while he was not afraid to strike Naruto, Sasuke was clearly represented as the overall bigger threat to Haku speed wise and strength wise.

U said Base Sasuke was portrayed on par with KN0 from his Haku fight and even said Sasuke performed better in CQC lol.
-U said FOD Base Sasuke was portrayed on par with FOD KN0.

Show me the quote please.

Its the same KN0 only with weaker stats due to Naruto's base stats being weaker u clown , why wouldn't that be the case lets hear it??

Because the weaker stats then add all the time Sasuke was out colded Naruto was training hard so thats your facts.

Neji was forced to use kaiten because of the bottom left panel here.

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Neji was forced to use rotation because he could not dodge simple as that explained this shit to many times for you Sasuke would have dodged that his physical movement is faster than Neji plus he has sharingan or he could counter with katon pick your poison.

Put Sasuke in the same situation Neji was in and he would've been forced to completely avoid Naruto's bullrush unless he's gonna punch through the expanded chakra which was able to clash with Kaiten and send both flying , it wouldn't surprise me if u think he would tbh with ur dumb ass.

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Mostly addressed but the thing is Sasuke could dodge it Neji cannot.

Its funny that u discredit my logic when any person reading this would obviously see that im literally taking a fat dump on the weak crap u call points lmao and my main point which started this whole debate has already been handled.

SMH your main points we're shitted no one but you has upvoted you these logic you think is so good is pathetic and know one is arguing with you but that other illiterate hyuga fan.

How would Naruto block if he's the one trying to attack Sasuke by rushing in with movement speed?? Sasuke isn't attacking faster than Neji can parry/block so stay wanking and ur not even taking into account that this is a straight up Taijutsu fight not a rush in and try to hit fight so idk why u keep bringing up Naruto here , maybe to stimulate ur Sasuke hard on more it seems.

Sound bout dumb asf everytime someone is fighting and taijutsu their attacking and blocking at the same time its a part of cqc so the first part of this post makes zero since. Sasuke is who's the best taijutsu fighter Neji parried? Hinata and she's not even in the same playing field as Sasuke when it comes to striking/dodging or cqc period especially in speed so to say he can parry Sasuke because he did Hinata is a joke lol. So because this is straight up taijutsu Sasuke cannot jump back then run up on him? again dumb af. Why i keep bringing Naruto in this well because this is a stronger Naruto using more KN0 and he got owned in cqc while a weaker version of himself already defeated Neji and CQC that's why im bring it up he forced Neji to rotate because he was so fast meaning Neji Taijutsu would have useless while Sasuke on the other hand straight stomped all over this Naruto but was more serious so thats why i keep bringing Naruto in. But knowing you him doing better against a stronger Naruto means nothing lol your logic.

Sasuke reading Neji's movement after Sasuke launches a attack is irrelevant to Neji being successful in blocking said attack and jyuken is his Taijutsu and it doesn't take anytime for Neji to release chakra out of a single body part. He did the same thing to kido's webs in these instances.

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Neji will not be able to block we've seen Speed on that KN0 Naruto's level forces up rotation, Neji was fighting slugs throughout the whole series he beat rock lee a year prior to their introduction and off screen he has no feats suggestion in pure taijutsu he can actively parry Sasuke.

He doesn't have to emit chakra from every single tenketsu like he does for Body blow so when Sasuke makes a physical attack and Neji parries or blocks , he simply emits chakra into Sasuke.

Neji chop those get out of here kido even says he emitted chakra to alter his momentum nothing suggest he can just release chakra that blocks your chakra points if that was the case whats the point of gentle fist, obviously im not talking about body blow. Sasuke see's the build up and get back even if he could do that which he cannot.

U Keep bringing up Naruto and Hinata when both are irrlevant.

Already explained their relevancy.

Im referring to his jabbing speed and Drunken Lee does not = Sasuke when we know that that same Kimiaro would've stomped the crap out of Sasuke in straight up taijutsu unless ur dumb ass thinks Sasuke could outperform kimi like Drunk Lee did.. U keep bringing up Naruto when he himself got neg diffed by Kimi even with a army of clones then u try to compare Drunken lee dodging Kimi to try and equate Sasuke doing the same to Neji which doesn't even make sense since Jabbing and touching>>>>>Striking , so yea im tired of kicking ur weak ass so dont reply because im tried of having to repeat myself to ur dumb ass especially since my main point has already be proven.

Does not matter what your referring to Sasuke dodges his striking speed. Druken lee does not = Sasuke 3 tomoe Sasuke is superior. Nope Kimmimaro used more than taijutsu on Naruto don't know why you'd bring it up and Sasuke stomped Naruto in cqc as well. Kimmi could not land a solid touch on lee if you think he would drag Sasuke in taijutsu on some stuff. Sasuke would outperformed Kimmi Like Lee was considering Sasuke is faster than that lee and can read movements. Kimmimaro camilia dance is a bunch of jabs

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And Kimmi striking speed > Neji's so whats your point. the rest is nonsense you have been owned shutup and stop crying.

 

[neosmith500]

But again, that isn't based on anything. Neji doesn't need to be able to easily evade all of Lee's attacks in order to easily defeat him in hand to hand. Can he evade some? Sure, is he going to be weaving Lee like Lee is some fodder in comparison? No, based on literally nothing.

I can agree here , tho i never said he'd be dodging him on fodder levels but having the ability to anticipate movements/attacks via Byakugan pushes his reaction/reflex to a point where it should be plausible but even if not it does prove that Neji's combat speed is enough to keep up with and outperform Initial Gated Lee without being at risk of getting beaten or outperformed by superior combat speed and strength due to Byakugan and agility.

-How do u see prelims Neji dealing with unweighted Lee's 1st Gated Combat speed in order to easily defeat him in hand to hand?

That doesn't invalidate my comparison so there was no point bringing it up. Yes, Gated Lee>>>Weightless Lee in speed, but Juubito>>>Ay in speed and Tobirama can't dodge Ay, so there's no arguing this point with the evidence you've provided. None at all.

True.

He'd probably block, or maybe he'd be able to evade. Not evidence he easily evades all of Lee's attacks though either way.

If he blocks then he's left staggered and open to Lee's combo , if he evades it like itachi's clone did when kakashi tried a uppercut then Neji's still left open to the rest of Lee's high speed combo seeing that his combat speed should easily be above Neji's with 1st Gate active.


What exact steps and physical movements do u see Prelims Neji doing in order to react , outperform and beat CE 1st Gate Lee if placed in this exact scenario CM1 Kimi was in?

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But not an evasion, let alone an easy evasion. Anyway, this was all addressed above.

True , i have no way of theorizing how much more movement Tobi would've been able to pull off if he were up against a slower shunshin so i'll leave it there.

Outperform=/=Easily evade all attacks. I shouldn't have to point out that difference.

Having the eye to anticipate/expect all attacks could have been Neji's answer for 1st Gated Lee's combat speed aided by agility and precision.

I thought you were only talking about Sasuke w/o the speed he copied from Lee, then yeah, this is a correct point.

I dont think Sasuke's DB would ignore his Lee speed in its Gauge since thats his normal speed after the training.

Yup, it doesn't mean that Kimimaro was way faster than KN0 in raw movement speed, it simply means that he's far faster than Naruto and Neji in reaction speed.

Yep , which can be attributed by mental agility followed by physical capability.

In terms of movement speed (overall) the difference might not be that large, but in terms of reaction speed Kimimaro is far above Lee. And the scans where Lee was actually shown outspeeding Gaara's sand defense were the scans where it was obvious he was using Shunshin. Anything else IIRC was just him dodging the sand, not the same thing.

Oh , i see it as Lee being quite a bit faster in raw movement/running speed but i fully agree with the bold.

-Agreed about the shunshin , but in terms of clearing distance Lee was easily able to outpace any sand attack and get close to Gaara with running/movement speed alone , scans where he blitzed around the defense while hitting it swiftly was combat speed aided by movement speed jus like Sasuke did in theses instances.

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-Weightless Lee's movement and combat speed were fast enough to have been noted by Kimimaro and even CM Kimi even when fresh from surgery , while Lee made no such notes in observation in regarding why Kimi moves so well , only praising his reaction speed , agility , precision , stamina , flexibility and skill.

Because it being fast isn't the sole reason why he can't get close. It's speed+the fact it's a more widespread kind of attack+the fact that it's all ranges is why he can't get close. The simple fact that Kimimaro couldn't outspeed said Sand is enough to show that Lee isn't replicating his feats from the Chuunin Exam.

But Gaara didn't attack him with widespread attacks in those instances , only sending a small portion of sand after him which left easy openings for Kimi to have blitzed forward if he had the same movement/running speed as normal or initial gated Lee.

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I think Lee was simply portrayed faster than Kimimaro overall.

No, it's not. Not sure why you are trying to over complicate things here. Kimimaro is a close range fighter. Gaara can fight from all ranges and his sand is strong defense, it's widespread and it's fast. Kimimaro couldn't get close because Gaara's fighting style disallows it. Kimimaro's alleged fighting style being a more nimble kind of fighting style isn't an excuse for why he couldn't get close, because he's one of the fastest characters to appear during Part 1.

I agree with everything here but Gaara's fighting style in that instance wouldn't have been effective if Kimimaro was above the likes of unweighted Lee in raw movement speed even in CM1 which he chose to deactivate..

-He was shown as one of the most agile and skilled CQC characters in P1 Yes , but was never noted to being fast in movement/running or shunshin speed like known speedsters which is needed to cover distance more quickly , he was noted as being fast in agility and reaction speed but in terms of movement/running speed feats Lee was portrayed faster in that area.

Not being linear is unorthodox, not counter based.

All you are basing this claim on in the first place is Kimimaro being able to counter Lee when Lee attacks, and that doesn't make sense. That's a normal fight right there. Lee attacks, Kimimaro counters. Him being good at countering doesn't mean that his fighting style is a counter based fighting style.

Not being linear as in to not being the one who initiates the first strikes in a linear fashion , only choosing to attack in unorthodox ways by reading attack patterns rather than go in guns blazing , which is wat i applied onto the notion of him bein a counter-based fighter and im just speaking in regards to his basic fighting style , mostly choosing after the enemy has already launched a attack which he exploits to time his own offense which makes it a none linear fighting style based much more exclusively on "Agility" , unlike Lee who is much more straight forward in his fighting style.

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Yeah, because most of this fight Lee was on the offensive.

Yep which is basically the difference between their fighting styles..

-Also on a small note , shouldn't CE2 Sasuke be capable of dodging Unweighted Lee's combos without much effort since he has the same Body speed + Sharingan..

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-Chunin prelims Neji's reaction speed and agility >> CE2 Sasuke w/2T + Lee body speed , so doesn't this mean that prelim Neji would have way less problems dodging all Lee's attacks compared to CE2 Sasuke which would also mean SRA Neji should have little problem avoiding that level of body/combat speed in CQC?

 

[unknownvillain1254]

Sasuke wins always and forever. Neji was better than Sasuke before the manga started and as soon as the chunin exams started Neji was always behind Naruto and Sasuke. too bad, so sad.

Neji fought the same naruto with no problems easy. Fake precog has been beat


QUOTE=Lawlermelon;20798263]Sasuke wins always and forever. Neji was better than Sasuke before the manga started and as soon as the chunin exams started Neji was always behind Naruto and Sasuke. too bad, so sad.[/QUOTE]

Neji is physically strong then sasuke and faster

 

[neosmith500]

What irony lol the fact that your losing and you cannot accept or the fact that you lie when you post scans saying a protor said one thing when he clearly said another you must take me for a fool, Never lost a debate to a hyuga fan aint bouta start today lets get it.

What a ego this guy has..

SMH same ass arguments that has been shitted on repeatedly lol on the scan i posted Naruto chakra cloak was as big as it ever was going to get during the fight

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this shows that when his taijutsu and dodging fails he resorts to rotation but the fact i gotta spell this out for you shows the level is stupidity your using.

Its funny that u didn't even counter anything i presented , i showed scans where Neji was dodging attacks which based on ur logic he couldn't do if he didn't use rotation. I said ntn about evading falling spiders which is totally irrelevant to anything i said.

Scan u linked of Neji using rotation which based on ur logic he couln't physically dodge without it..

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Scans i linked proving this to be false.

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I laugh when people run out of arguments so the pass it off as manga said this or that lol, Neji did not know Naruto could expand his chakra even though Naruto just did seconds before him attacking stop it you sound like a big fool. Naruto did not expand anything especially since he was not even trying to Naruto is not smart enough to even think like that lol. Speed clearly was a problem hence the reason kishi made it a purpose for Neji to say Naruto got faster.

Neji had no way of knowing that Naruto was about to unleash a wall of chakra around himself when he ran at him lol at u still saying Naruto didn't expand anything when manga shows he did.

SMH this is just the same shit i already replied to above this weak ass arguments are getting annoying now lol. Look at the panel you posted Naruto in movement when he moves at good speed his cloak lags off him

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now when he jumps at Neji

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because it lags off his body in movement

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showing an inconsistency in size so your scan proves nothing and don't even bring up the rocks arguments because that was happening already

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so your argument is shit buddy.

The Cloak got bigger and wider so ur lagging behind logic doesn't work here since lagging behind would not cause the cloak to grow much bigger and wider.

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The bold has alot to do without, Again i don't know why your even bringing up base Sasuke please tell me what argument did i ever try to use him in or for lol. CE2 KN0 outclasses Sasuke? Naruto himself admitted Sasuke was the only one who could take on Gaara at that point or atleast he knew he was no match

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Which implies KN0 Naruto is not stronger than Sasuke much less that Gaara.

LOL it seems im gonna have to use the words of someone much more logical than u to try and get it through ur head that CE KN0>>>CE2 Sasuke and tranformed Gaara.

CE KN0 Naruto obviously wins. This is practically what we saw in VoTE. KN0 Naruto beat the hell out of 2-Tomoe Sasuke. By the time Sasuke and Naruto fought at the hospital, Base Naruto was stronger than 2-Tomoe Sasuke. Meaning KN0 would be above said Sasuke. So we know that CE Base Naruto is definitely inferior to CE Sasuke, but I doubt that KN0 is inferior. If Sasuke couldn't handle KN0 at VoTE don't see why he'd be able to handle KN0 at the Chunnin Exams.


And in regards to Transformed Gaara.

Transformed Gaara? Above Naruto in speed? Lmao nah. Like you said its based on nothing



Im tired of wasting time on u and i have a long way to go before im finished with this shitty post of urs so im going to do so with as little words as possible since ur logic is shit poor and easy to counter.

Reaction/= Movement so your point about Sakura is irrelevant when all she had to do is turn around and even then Sasuke's statement already proved how fast Gaara was and him blitzing past naruto is proof of his speed so you trying to debunk it with the sakura argument is pathetic lol. SMH naruto only got the beat on Gaara because he had no where to go being in a forest surrounded by clones in a 360 and even with that he was swatting them casually until the

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that's the only time Naruto got the beat on him. Stop it with the nonsense out manuevering someone his cannot see they're backside is not impressive especially when he tricked him with a clone feint that's like me saying Boruto can react to momo because he stabbed his eye with a clone feint. Naruto would get tossed by Sasuke at that point in a 1v1 he was just better equipped at fighting jin Gaara in his base because of his clones than fighting him with kn0 in no clones like he did to defeat neji. Stomping in this debate is the most funny bs you have said yet and you said alot of nonsense lol.

I like u how u ignore my point about transformed Gaara's speed only being relevant when he uses his claws to propel himself forward using the trees.

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Literally evrything u said here is irrelevant so i wont even touch that crap.

SMH How is it irrelevant because he performed better than Naruto lol? Sasuke saying he can see clearly shows his precog got better and his movements due to him traping a jobbing orochimaru also Orchimaru confirms his statement by saying he can read me now even surprising orochimaru with this statement as well, determined not to lose does not equal fighting for your survival lol. How i know well lets look at it neji used his 64 palms twice and rotation many of times meaning he expended much more chakra fighting kido and lets not even get started with the injuries Neji used every last ounce of his being in that fight then we look at them post fight he was talking and standing fine he was out for days after the kido fight he thought he would die when the fight was over.

Its irrelevant because Naruto and Sasuke were not in the same situation for u to make a comparison so strong. Show me scans of Sasuke trying to read Oro with sharingan and only then would ur point about his precog getting better have substance.

-Fighting for survival is irrelevant here since it would do ntn to help Neji get up in this instance.

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Already shitted on your statements on this lol Sasuke did better against Orochimaru thus putting him above on the same level as KNO Naruto FOD you denying it well because KN0 Naruto is KN0 Naruto is shitty logic with nothing but your dumbass word supporting your argument, prove to me how Naruto was better because your the one looking salty my dude.

I never said every KN0 is equivalent , which doesn't even make sense and again i'll just give u the words of someone much more logical and credible to deal with ur other statement.

Forest of Death Sasuke definitely isn't on par with KN0 Naruto, that's just pure retardation. Oro tested Sasuke because Sasuke is an Uchiha and Oro has an eternal hard on for that clan.

Of course you were wrong yay me. Naruto hit the snake once and orochimaru casually spit fire towards him which left Naruto all battered up

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shows that with little effort he can extort KN0 Orochimaru did not raise his fighting level during that time and Sasuke managed to get one over on him. Orochimaru wanting to test Sasuke does not mean anything especially if your trying to correlate that to Sasuke doing better than Naruto did. You brought up the snake argument Orochimaru wanted to fight Sasuke with the snake hence the reason he attacked him with it Naruto just jump in the way then he poofed it because he got bored of it not because so he could fight Sasuke 1v1 hell Sasuke already fought and beat his snake prior to that. And Naruto did jack shit to the snake he punched it but it did not even flinched so again your point is moot.

Everything ur saying here is irrelevant and Lol at the snake not flinching when it was flung dowards with great force LMAO.

When your as fast or faster than someone why would you need sharingan to read their movements this post does not begin to make since in that regard if Naruto could stomp Sasuke as you claim his speed would be tiers above his meaning catching haku would be child's play and he would not need a sharingan to track his movements if he was really that much above Sasuke a man who can track Haku movements and intercept him. No one said anything about pure physical strength stop i said he would beat him down if they fought and physically he should be well above him to his feats during the ZA arc are nothing compared to his vote feats. Kurama boosted someone at that level compared to his vote level stats are meaningless when vote Naruto is already to far above his level to start from so no.

Again , Naruto unleashed a Chakra roar to deflect Haku's weapons which haku used as a opening to slip by him.

-How does Base VOTE Naruto beat ZA KN0 Naruto in a purely physical confrontation?

How many times haved Naruto said he was going to kill someone? and i did not deny his killing intent i just said he did not mean seeing how he stopped in mid punch because he saw haku the boy he tailed in the forest for like 3 pages so how bloodlusted was he really? Not enough to say he was more angrier at VOTE he used everything and some to try and win and still lost.

He was literally bloodlusted against haku while only angry against Sasuke so ur comparison is flawed unless u think he was only mildy bloodlusted after thinking Sasuke died.

Based off a hollow statement that did not hold up because he changed his resolve the moment he saw Haku's face and him using more chakra still does not mean shit since FOD KN0 >>> WAVE ARC KN0 Naruto.

No , i based it on the transformations themselves in comparison to each other along with the emotions attributed to them LOL..

Forest of death transformation..

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Compared to transformation against Haku.

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Its clear which transformation released more Chakra/power and had stronger emotions just like its clear Naruto released more chakra at VOTE compared to Forest of death.

Sigh everyone always act likes that i guess KN0 Naruto is deadly to Hiruzen because when he senses that chakra it brought back nightmares to him no. Sasuke took out the wind guy 1v1 and stop comparing the 2 KN0 Naruto at the time would have lost to that Sasuke to so it would not have mattered.

Lol Thats ur counter? Hiruzen wasn't scared and would have no reason to be scared but Dosu clearly had good reason and in regards to the bold said FOD Base Sasuke is ntn compared to FOD KN0 Naruto and i never tried to compare FOD CM1 Sasuke to FOD KN0. That has ntn to do with KN0 stomping the crap out of the sound team as easily as CM1 Sasuke did.

At Vote Sasuke describes the CM as the equal to his 3 tomoe sharingan in the boost it gives him powerwise

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put it like this BASE Sasuke FOD > Base Naruto or roughly equal to same with KN0 and CM add 2 tomoe and Sasuke wins overall that shits on your entire post. To different times that same unleashed power was nothing in FOD while CM was child bye.

Sasuke was only confused why he could suddenly read Naruto's movements and wondered if it was due to his Body adjusting to the CM , which isn't the reason since we know that 3T was the reason for this..

-Lol ur like a male femmi fatale with the way u post and even worse logic.

Dosu would have done it his first strike if lee did not use the branch and did you hear how is jutsu works just by flicking it and running up on lee he could have ended it, Lee went for his strongest attack right away because he knew how deadly he was. Nothing implies KN0 can replicate these feats so your points are still dumb as shit.

Lee simply took steps to not get hit by a unknown attack since he knew that simply avoiding it would lead to him getting hit somehow. KN0 can simply blast dosu away with a roar or scare the fool with his chakra like CM1 Sasuke did with less chakra followed by a wtf blitz.

Zaku did not soften the ground until they we're going down so what are you even talking about.? Boruto fooled Momoshiki so anyone can be fooled shutup with the pathetic nit picking nonsense lol. a Serious Zaku would mop Sakura without a touch stop playing these games. Proof KN0 can blitz cause all i see is blitz with no argumentation behind it.

The bold is irrelevant and the Momo comparison doesn't work because it took the combined effort of Sasuke and Ameno to pull that feat while in Zaku's case it was clear that they were so low in level that sakura could fool them while against top tiers the substitution is harder to pull if up against a capable fighter unless used with perfect timing like wat Gaara did.

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Show proof Naruto got Stomped by Weighted lee because he was sloth slow compared to lee's speed. CE2 he was coming close to Neji and even managed to dodge his attack, His roof fight with Sasuke was equal to unweighted lee he fought fairly even and so on that fact i need to bring fourth these events shows the lack of common since being used by you or is it just ignorance, A main character having the same speed throughout the entire part 1 series is ludacris i don't know why im taking you serious also please show some proof of your claims all i see his KN0 blitz blitz shutup and prove it. Also i don't know why your talking about base Sasuke none of my arguments had nothing to do with him so why do you keep bringing him up.

Show scans of the bold happening plz lol..

-The rest of ur post of irrelevant/incorrect and i never ever said Naruto's speed remained the same throughout the entire p1 lmao wow.

He used 1 tails nothing more to say here.

I was obviously speaking in regards to KN0 not how much chakra was released overall LMAO..

Animals don't stop the kill because they recognize someone who they talked to for 5 minutes lol. Naruto control over his chakra had got better that's what he tried for specifically with Jiraiya so i don't know why you brought that up you dumbass every time after his neji fight he had control over his fox chakra unless he went to a new stage he had never accessed before so this post is shit to the 5th power.

Only Naruto isn't a animal so thats irrelevant to the point and yes Naruto had a better handle on his Chakra at VOTE but how does that prove he was more bloodlusted against Sasuke when he wasn't even bloodlusted in the first place.

Which means his killing intent was not a crazy as you think. addressed.

Still had more killing intent since he had none against VOTE Sasuke.

When did i ever stat this? please tell me show me a quote because your a dumbass i said Sasuke with 2 tomoe during the wave arc was KN0 Naruto's equal stop being so phucking dumb.

Taking some more words from a wise debater in regards to the Bold.

Lmao Zabuza Arc? Dafuq? Naruto did better against Haku than Sasuke did, way better. No way that tomoe Sharingan Sasuke is on par with any version of KN0 Naruto. Not a chance.

Sasuke saying he can see now tell you he could not before and im not posted that scan again.

I asked for scans showing Sasuke trying to read Oro's movements at all before the test since thats the only way for ur point to gain substance clown. U have not showed any scans of this.

If your already faster than someone reading their movements is easy and the way you talk about KN0 Naruto im positive you beilive that so why would he need sharingan when according to you he can blitz Sasuke who intercepted Haku this he doesnt have sharingan nonsense is not cutting and it does not make sense at all. He surprised by Haku's speed the chakra roar was a counter attack to the needles his surprise was that Haku was gone from his location shown why Naruto was looking around this even gave Haku a sense that he could strike because Naruto was lost to where he was.

Addressed , really im tired of replying to a long list of nonsense and irrelevant crap.

If this was true why would he need sharingan on someone who he moves tiers faster than? makes 0 sense like i said being tiers faster than someone your not losing track of them and the battlefield not once so again this shows how bad your post falls flat on its ass. Lol tiers though even though half dead 1 tomoe Sasuke performed equally as well if not better since haku was to scared to strike him head on while he was not afraid to strike Naruto, Sasuke was clearly represented as the overall bigger threat to Haku speed wise and strength wise.

Haku travels faster when moving directly from mirror to mirror and Naruto could not catch that movement with his eye after countering Haku's weapons a instant earlier via chakra roar , but was shown easily able to intercept him when he tries to travel to the mirror with ease , showing that KN0 was much faster than Haku.

Because the weaker stats then add all the time Sasuke was out colded Naruto was training hard so thats your facts.

U didn't even counter anything lmao , Naruto steadily progressing doesn't mean he's vastly superior to ZA KN0 in stats.

Neji was forced to use kaiten because of the bottom left panel here.

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Neji was forced to use rotation because he could not dodge simple as that explained this shit to many times for you Sasuke would have dodged that his physical movement is faster than Neji plus he has sharingan or he could counter with katon pick your poison.

Addressed but i guess Neji using Kaiten here means he couldn't avoid kido's attacks one by one in this instance..

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Which doesn't make sense since Neji himself says he could "Simply" dodge them 1 by one at the bottom left panel here.

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-Sasuke being able to counter Naruto's expanded chakra in that instance is irrelevant since my point was Sasuke would have no chance of using Taijutsu to counter Naruto in that instance like he did to VOTE KN0 , JUSt LIKE Neji would have no choice but to evade completely or block and reflect the chakra with Kaiten as in canon not to mention Sasuke's katon would've been blocked neg diff and the expanded chakra while Naruto plows through it like without any chance of injury.

Mostly addressed but the thing is Sasuke could dodge it Neji cannot.

Neji didn't try to dodge , he blocked it , Sasuke would literally be forced to dodge completly unlike in his fight against VOTE KN0 and lol at u thinking ur countering anything.

Sound bout dumb asf everytime someone is fighting and taijutsu their attacking and blocking at the same time its a part of cqc so the first part of this post makes zero since. Sasuke is who's the best taijutsu fighter Neji parried? Hinata and she's not even in the same playing field as Sasuke when it comes to striking/dodging or cqc period especially in speed so to say he can parry Sasuke because he did Hinata is a joke lol. So because this is straight up taijutsu Sasuke cannot jump back then run up on him? again dumb af. Why i keep bringing Naruto in this well because this is a stronger Naruto using more KN0 and he got owned in cqc while a weaker version of himself already defeated Neji and CQC that's why im bring it up he forced Neji to rotate because he was so fast meaning Neji Taijutsu would have useless while Sasuke on the other hand straight stomped all over this Naruto but was more serious so thats why i keep bringing Naruto in. But knowing you him doing better against a stronger Naruto means nothing lol your logic.

I never once mentioned Hinata as basis to any of my reasoning Lol and clearly since u think Neji cant physcally react and defend himself against Sasuke's body speed just proves ur hard on for Sasuke is beyond Oro level , everything ur saying has been addressed and most of wat ur doing is bringing up points i never even made in the first place with a whole bunch of irrelevant crap smh.

Neji will not be able to block we've seen Speed on that KN0 Naruto's level forces up rotation, Neji was fighting slugs throughout the whole series he beat rock lee a year prior to their introduction and off screen he has no feats suggestion in pure taijutsu he can actively parry Sasuke.

So basically this Sasuke is gonna attack SRA Neji so fast he wont even react well enough to put up a block , based on wat exactly?

-We've seen Sasuke's speed when uniting offensive timing to his counters , says ntn about Sasuke being able to attack Neji so fast he wont even be capable of defending himself LMAO

Neji chop those get out of here kido even says he emitted chakra to alter his momentum nothing suggest he can just release chakra that blocks your chakra points if that was the case whats the point of gentle fist, obviously im not talking about body blow. Sasuke see's the build up and get back even if he could do that which he cannot.

Neji can use jyuken from anywhere in his body the same way he uses it with his hands , as he did to Kido's webs while fully coiled.

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He cut the webs without his hands the same way he did with his hands.

Does not matter what your referring to Sasuke dodges his striking speed. Druken lee does not = Sasuke 3 tomoe Sasuke is superior. Nope Kimmimaro used more than taijutsu on Naruto don't know why you'd bring it up and Sasuke stomped Naruto in cqc as well. Kimmi could not land a solid touch on lee if you think he would drag Sasuke in taijutsu on some stuff. Sasuke would outperformed Kimmi Like Lee was considering Sasuke is faster than that lee and can read movements. Kimmimaro camilia dance is a bunch of jabs

And Kimmi striking speed > Neji's so whats your point. the rest is nonsense you have been owned shutup and stop crying.

LMAO this clown really thinks Sasuke could outperform Kimimaro in taijutsu when the moment Sasuke attacks he gets stomped in CQC since kimi is easily more agile , skilled and better at fighting LMAO if u think Kimimaro is going to be rushing in and getting outperformed like KN0.

-Kimi's striking speed is irrelevant in this debate when Neji has jyuken to counter Sasuke but anyway man as u can see im literally tired of ur posts and lame logic which is why im not even taking most of wat u say seriously and im replying to the points that are relevant , so u can continue trying to act like u owned me but i assure u that nobody who reads our debate would consider that the case apart from u so yea , stay wanking till ur palms bleed fool because it fits u. I'v lost interest in countering ur shitty opnions so kindly dont reply to me unless u work on ur logic and common sense because i literally cant take u seriously anymore and countering ur post is ntn but a chore.

 

[Ambivalence]

What's with this lowkey trying to push off Byakugan having almost Sharingan abilities? I'm seeing this argument way too often. Byakugan =/= Sharingan, that scan that keeps appearing merely meant Neji can see attacks coming for him from, what would be to a normal ninja, a blind spot and in that way anticipate and negate them if his reactions would allow him to. Doesn't at all mean he can read moves, "track speed" if we're talking about a linear attack (and even if we're not, him having a 360 field of vision doesn't mean he can actively track high speed movement, it just means his eyes allow him to see the area where the movement will persist, just like how Kakashi was looking directly at Lee but needed to activate his Sharingan once 5G started happening), nor that it increases his reactions in a straight up fight without blindspot attacks, which is exactly what this is.

Still can't believe what I just read.

Still, guess you're is at least convinced Sasuke doesn't poop on Neji? I'd say it's a med-diff win.

 

[KidGamer65]

What's with this lowkey trying to push off Byakugan having almost Sharingan abilities? I'm seeing this argument way too often. Byakugan =/= Sharingan, that scan that keeps appearing merely meant Neji can see attacks coming for him from, what would be to a normal ninja, a blind spot and in that way anticipate and negate them if his reactions would allow him to. Doesn't at all mean he can read moves, "track speed" if we're talking about a linear attack (and even if we're not, him having a 360 field of vision doesn't mean he can actively track high speed movement, it just means his eyes allow him to see the area where the movement will persist, just like how Kakashi was looking directly at Lee but needed to activate his Sharingan once 5G started happening), nor that it increases his reactions in a straight up fight without blindspot attacks, which is exactly what this is.



Still, guess you're is at least convinced Sasuke doesn't poop on Neji? I'd say it's a med-diff win.

Yeah, I exaggerated that. I agree on a mid diff win.

 

[KidGamer65]

I can agree here , tho i never said he'd be dodging him on fodder levels but having the ability to anticipate movements/attacks via Byakugan pushes his reaction/reflex to a point where it should be plausible but even if not it does prove that Neji's combat speed is enough to keep up with and outperform Initial Gated Lee without being at risk of getting beaten or outperformed by superior combat speed and strength due to Byakugan and agility.

You said easily dodge. :lol

-How do u see prelims Neji dealing with unweighted Lee's 1st Gated Combat speed in order to easily defeat him in hand to hand?

Blocks and Gentle Fist, and the occasional evasion. Neji won't be weaving his attacks though on some Mike Tyson shit though.

If he blocks then he's left staggered and open to Lee's combo , if he evades it like itachi's clone did when kakashi tried a uppercut then Neji's still left open to the rest of Lee's high speed combo seeing that his combat speed should easily be above Neji's with 1st Gate active.

Obviously you are wrong here if Lee can't defeat Neji, because the only options there are a block or a dodge. If Neji can't do either, he can't win, but we know he can win so he would either be able to dodge or block. So there's really no arguing here for you.

What exact steps and physical movements do u see Prelims Neji doing in order to react , outperform and beat CE 1st Gate Lee if placed in this exact scenario CM1 Kimi was in?

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Either a block or a dodge and then an attack with Gentle Fist.

Having the eye to anticipate all attacks could have been Neji's answer for 1st Gated Lee's combat speed aided by agility and precision.

Which ties into reaction speed, which we've already discussed.

I dont think Sasuke's DB would ignore his Lee speed in its Gauge since thats his normal speed after the training.

Then Sasuke's DB score would be 4 in speed just like DB 1 Lee, not 3.5.

Oh , i see it as Lee being quite a bit faster in raw movement/running speed but i fully agree with the bold.

-Agreed about the shunshin , but in terms of clearing distance Lee was easily able to outpace any sand attack and get close to Gaara with running/movement speed alone , scans where he blitzed around the defense while hitting it swiftly was combat speed aided by movement speed jus like Sasuke did in theses instances.

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Ok, then I'll agree that their raw speed alone is enough to outspeed Gaara's sand defense.

-Weightless Lee's movement and combat speed were fast enough to have been noted by Kimimaro and even CM Kimi even when fresh from surgery , while Lee made no such notes in observation in regarding why Kimi moves so well , only praising his reaction speed , agility , precision , stamina , flexibility and skill.

Because Kimimaro's shown movements had nothing to do with raw movement speed, just reaction speed (still speed) and everything else you mentioned. Doesn't mean that Lee is quite a bit faster in raw speed, that is unless we aren't interpreting the DB correctly, or unless the DB is flat out wrong, in which case there's no reason to use it at all for any arguments.

But Gaara didn't attack him with widespread attacks in those instances , only sending a small portion of sand after him which left easy openings for Kimi to have blitzed forward if he had the same movement/running speed as normal or initial gated Lee.

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I think Lee was simply portrayed faster than Kimimaro overall.

Compared to regular hand to hand Gaara's attacks are widespread, that's the point I'm trying to make here. And there's no reason why he'd be left open when he still has sand in his gourd that automatically reacts to incoming attacks.

DB scores put Kimimaro ahead of Lee in terms of raw unenhanced speed. So either DB takes overall speed into account (reaction speed and movement speed) when making their judgements or it's simply wrong.

I agree with everything here but Gaara's fighting style in that instance wouldn't have been effective if Kimimaro was above the likes of unweighted Lee in raw movement speed even in CM1 which he chose to deactivate..

-He was shown as one of the most agile and skilled CQC characters in P1 Yes , but was never noted to being fast in movement/running or shunshin speed like known speedsters which is needed to cover distance more quickly , he was noted as being fast in agility and reaction speed but in terms of movement/running speed feats Lee was portrayed faster in that area.

Yeah, if it were the same Gaara from the Chuunin Exams it wouldn't have been effective, but it isn't so being as fast as Lee=/=Being able to outspeed SRA Gaara's sand.

Read above for all this DB score and Kimimaro's speed business.

Not being linear as in to not being the one who initiates the first strikes in a linear fashion , only choosing to attack in unorthodox ways by reading attack patterns rather than go in guns blazing , which is wat i applied onto the notion of him bein a counter-based fighter and im just speaking in regards to his basic fighting style , mostly choosing after the enemy has already launched a attack which he exploits to time his own offense which makes it a none linear fighting style based much more exclusively on "Agility" , unlike Lee who is much more straight forward in his fighting style.

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Alright.



Yep which is basically the difference between their fighting styles..

-Also on a small note , shouldn't CE2 Sasuke be capable of dodging Unweighted Lee's combos without much effort since he has the same Body speed + Sharingan..

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-Chunin prelims Neji's reaction speed and agility >> CE2 Sasuke w/2T + Lee body speed , so doesn't this mean that prelim Neji would have way less problems dodging all Lee's attacks compared to CE2 Sasuke which would also mean SRA Neji should have little problem avoiding that level of body/combat speed in CQC?

No, not after looking at feats and DB. Sasuke is faster than Neji in terms of movement speed by feats during the Chunnin Exams as he can copy Lee's speed, and even his DB score is higher than Neji's during that timeframe. So there's no way his actual agility is higher. Reaction speed though? Neji has the advantage here since he can react to 5G Lee somewhat, but is the gap that large? Probably not.

So yes, Neji would have an easier time dodging Lee than Sasuke would, but it's not like Sasuke would have an easy time dodging Lee himself so this doesn't really prove that SRA Neji has little problem avoiding that level of speed in CQC. Neji being able to evade=/=Neji being able to evade with no problems.