SRA Neji vs. VoTE (3-Tomoe) Sasuke

[KidGamer65]

Average strength kick would knock anyone -who is crouching- off their feet. Definitely not as far as Kakashi goes there but they will be knocked off their feet.

Which doesn't change the fact that strength was used to what he did.

The point i'm trying to get at is striking speed matters in a taijutsu fight. Kakashi has fast reactions and the only reason he doesn't react to the incoming kick was the speed of said kick despite Kakashi having faster reactions + 3T precog. Ducking is not excuse for not being able to get out of the way of said kick because he has the speed and reactions + precog to be able to get out fast enough. (

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Which is a point I never denied, doesn't mean that the person who strikes the fastest automatically wins. And the rest of this part of your post doesn't make sense. You say ducking isn't an excuse for him being unable to dodge because he has the speed to dodge even though him having the speed to dodge a head on kick from Zabuza doesn't mean that he'll dodge an immediate follow up kick from Zabuza after Zabuza had already swung his blade at him which leaves Kakashi vulnerable and Zabuza in an advantageous position.

Saying "it's not an excuse because he's fast enough" isn't even an argument. Especially when Zabuza and Kakashi are already near each other in speed w/o Sharingan.

Naruto at this point is obviously a billion times slower than Zabuza yes but I'm only trying to show that Kakashi could have reacted despite ducking initially if that kick didn't come faster than he could react.

Movement speed =/= striking speed.

Your point doesn't work because Naruto is nowhere near Zabuza or Kakashi's level of speed. Speed is the most important part of this scenario so I'm not sure why you think providing an example where Kakashi is far faster than his opposition proves your point here.

In terms of the fight we have on our hands Sasuke dodging a linear punch from Naruto aided by his movement speed coming from a distance doesn't prove for a fact that Sasuke can dodge all of Neji's strikes in an all in your face cqc simply because he has precog. Neji has insane striking speeds and Sasuke reacting to that Naruto's movement speed is negated here as this is an all in your face fight not requiring distance movement speed reaction feats.

All of Neji's strikes? Who said he'll dodge all of Neji's strikes? I said he'll dodge Neji's initial 64 palms strikes and then counter attack, or he'll parry Neji's regular strikes and kicks used against Naruto and Hinata in regular CQC and then counter attack. Sasuke can't dodge all of Neji's attacks.

Consider Neji isn't the aggressor type.. and consider a scenario where Sasuke comes in with a punch that Neji dodges or parries slightly leaving Sasuke unbalanced.... is there proof Sasuke has the insane reactions to avoid all the simultaneous fast punches Neji can deal in that instant?

Read below, further on in this post. Not sure what kind of fights you've watched to think that every single missed attack results in someone being thrown off balance.

Simultaneous punches in an instant? Lol not like Neji can even do that to begin with.

@bold Correct me if i'm wrong..but your 'why' is because of strength right? Wouldn't this mean no one would be able to beat those Raikage's because i'm pretty sure strengthened punches won't be putting them down in a taijutsu only match-up.

You're also leaving out the byakugan entirely as if it had no hand in Neji defeating Lee yet keep bringing up how Sharingan would increase taijutsu stats.

What instances?

No, it's because of all physical abilities combined. That's why skill isn't the most important factor in all close quarter fights. That's the point I'm trying to make.


The instances where Neji allegedly neg diffed 1st Gate and Weightless Lee with nothing but hand to hand and where said Lee was unable to tag Neji.

The gates are very crippling

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. but the effects of when he's active gates enables Lee to still fight through such pain.

Simple gentle fist pokes would cause pain but that pain would be tanked and he would still be able to pummel Neji neg diff.

You haven't proven what you need to prove. You simply restated what you already stated in the last post but with a scan saying that the Gates are crippling even though we know that the Gates are crippling. You are supposed to be proving that the Gates and Gentle Fist deal damage similar to each other in magnitude.

The hyuga can put anyone down with a critical hit in a vital place. Neji and Lee would just be sparring and there would be no need for him to go to such extreme measures just like in his fight with Hinata. You're implying Neji would have had to touch Lee just once with gentle fist to cripple him entirely but we see in gates Lee already fights through the pain. Not to mention Lee is fast and proficient enough in taijutsu himself and won't allow for Neji to just calmly aim at a vital organ with his gentle fist.

If they are sparring Neji doesn't need to go that far because Lee isn't going that far and using the 5th Gate to fight him, so I have no idea why you continue to mention sparring as if it's proof of anything you are saying. Especially when you've yet to prove that the damage the gates causes to his body and the damage Gentle Fist would cause to his body are alike enough to make your comparison valid.

If your comparison was even valid in the first place Gai wouldn't have stated outright that the goal of the Ura Renge is to pummel Neji into the ground before he can touch Lee, hence him saying it's a high speed Taijutsu combo that can't be touched. What you are doing at this point is simply arguing against what Gai already stated using hypotheticals. Lee's issue was not being touched by Neji, and that's clearly because of the Gentle Fist unless Neji has some other near deadly technique that'd result in Lee needing to avoid being touched to have a clear shot at victory.

Then how does Sasuke win? Because from all i'm reading from your posts i'm getting the impression you're implying Sasuke wins because he's stronger.

-Sasuke has superior reaction speed, physical strength and he's more durable than Neji at VoTe.
-Sasuke hits harder than Neji does as he was able to floor KN0 with a punch and a kick.
-Neji doesn't hit as hard so he'll have to hit Sasuke more if he wants to win.

If Neji attacks Sasuke with his normal Taijutsu style that he used against Naruto and Hinata, Sasuke parries his attacks and then beats him down. Superior striking strength means little when your opponent can block your attacks. If Neji attacks with 64 palms like it's been suggested elsewhere in this thread, Sasuke either dodges them entirely by simply keeping his distance from Neji, or when Neji lunges forward for the initial two strikes Sasuke dodges forward to the side and then attacks Neji while he's in the middle of his attack.

If Neji waits for Sasuke to come at him first, Sasuke attacks and:

-If Neji dodges said attack Sasuke simply attacks him again until he lands.
-If Neji blocks said attack then it becomes a brawl, which Neji loses unless he breaks free.
-If Neji dodges said attack and then tries to counter attack Sasuke blocks and then it either becomes a brawl or they break from each other and restart the process.

And if at any point Neji tries to use 64 palms, Sasuke creates distance. Even if he takes a few hits in the process, Neji won't be putting him down with only a few strikes as Gentle Fist is restricted. And keep in mind Sasuke can move as fast as Weightless Lee when he wants to, so for a short while Neji has to fight someone as fast as Weightless Lee (far faster than him) but with FAR better reaction speed than said Lee and better reaction speed than him. That almost puts Sasuke above Neji's level completely in hand to hand as skill goes out the window when Sasuke is copying the exact movements of someone who is almost as skilled as he is in Taijutsu.

"Neji dodges Sasuke's attacks neg diff and then obliterates him" is a ridiculous argument that's literally only based one feat Neji has, and that's him evading daggers with no speed feats that mean that he dodges all of Sasuke's attacks neg diff when Sasuke can easily tag someone faster than Neji himself.

It does sorta..You keep mentioning physical abilities and we know the only physical ability Sasuke trumps Neji in is strength. That's why i suggested you stop using physical abilities and straight up use strength instead.

-Reaction speed.
-Strength.
-Durability.

Those are physical abilities that Sasuke trumps Neji in. The only thing Neji is superior in is movement speed without Shunshin as per his DB score and when we take into account the fact that Sasuke can move as fast as Weightless Lee he becomes far superior in movement speed as well.

This seems very wrong. Dodging and countering a linear punch coming from a distance is not the same as attacking then dodging and then countering in cqc. The latter requires extremely fast body speed. Despite the precog of 3T, Sasuke somehow still got cut from a linear punch (

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). Isn't that implying if Naruto could strike faster he would have beat Sasuke there?

All I said there is that the Sharingan will predict it. Who said that Sasuke will react and THEN dodge or counter attack? Who used that instance as absolute evidence that Sasuke would dodge Neji's strike after he himself had already struck? If he rushes at Neji and ends up in the position you are claiming he'll end up in a block is all he'll need to survive since a few hits from Neji isn't going to put him down.

And Sasuke completely evaded Naruto's fist the first time and the second time as the images show.

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Meaning that cut must be from the pressure or "shockwave" of Naruto's attack.

Neji won't be the aggressor..this is backed by his style in the manga. 3T doesn't give any images until Neji decides to move and at that point it will be too late because we see from the scans that Neji doesn't move until the very last minute when a strike is in his range for a parry or dodge for his counter attack. My question is would Sasuke then be able to recover faster than Neji can strike in that single instant?

Recover? What aren't you understanding? There is nothing he needs to recover from. A light punch won't leave him in any disadvantageous position like when Naruto rushed him at full force.

I'm not sure how you can say this when at the bottom of this post you mention light punches would cause Neji to stagger. Why wouldn't that be applicable in Neji and Lee's fight. Lee is stronger than Neji and he would need just a punch of his to cause Neji to stagger and then wreck Neji. And as far as we know, Neji never lost to Lee.

A point difference is a big stat jump. .5 is the normal jump in stats we see.

Lmao a light punch that actually connects with Neji properly would cause him to stagger. Why are you even bothering to mention Lee and Neji's sparring matches when those took place before the Chunnin Exams, meaning that's DB 1 Lee and Neji. That Lee is not superior to Sasuke at VoTE in CQC. As for Gates, you have no idea how many Gates Lee may have used against Neji during their sparring matches as they are all off screen.

Ok, you have a point there.

Understandable.



You haven't proven it isn't necessary to tag him. Neji evades all his strikes neg diff.

Lmao and why would I have to prove that it ISN'T necessary when no feat he has would warrant the opponent to need super fast striking speed to strike him? Don't try to make a claim and then say "you can't disprove it so I'm right" please. Not how you argue. The only back up I saw for this point was that Lee needed Ura Renge to defeat Neji, but that's not because Neji can evade all of 5G Lee's strikes as I've already shown so the amount of proof you have for this statement is literally zero.

Not counting those nonsense spider web and dagger dodging feats for reasons already explained.

That someone was faster than Neji in movement. That someone was coming from distances with a single linear punch. We are talking about cqc here are we not.

That someone was coming at Sasuke from less than 5m away (KN0 and KN1) with back to back attacks (only KN0) and Sasuke still dodged him. Not sure what that has to do with my point anyway.

I disagree with at bold and i'm open to you proving me wrong about it. A dying Neji seems to have moved his hands 64 multiple times in an instant here.

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Also consider just inserting chakra wouldn't be enough to make Kido spin that excessively.

Lmao you cannot be serious with this. Where did you get 64 from? Where do you see Neji using 64 palms here? Kidomaru was hanging upside down, Neji jumps in front of him, jabs him and he spins around due to the force and dies. Please don't try and continue arguing that Neji struck 64 times in an instant.

No it doesn't lol..Kido doesn't direct the daggers. Those daggers were fast enough to force Neji into dodging them one by one instead of heading towards a direction and jumping over the waves or sliding under them.

Which proves what exactly? Cause nothing you just said had anything to do with what you just quoted. Neji had to dodge them one by one because of the area they covered, not because of the speed. :lol

- Kido clearly explains the reason for the daggers on Neji's back (

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). You expect them to hit his blindspot exactly but that's not what the manga shows as we see none actually hitting the base of the neck where the blindspot is. (

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).

Yeah, I misread this part right here. Agreed about the daggers in his blind spot.

@underlined Are we talking about the part after Sasuke gets 3T and then punches Naruto? If that's the case, i disagree. That punch that connected with Naruto's face was as a result of timing not speed. Without 3T to give him precog i highly doubt he'll be fast enough to punch that Naruto.

It yields the same result in combat so it barely matters whether or not it was raw speed or not.

Sorry but your reasons that the feat is not amazing don't add up. @bold does it really matter when its obvious they are only a few feet from him and it doesn't look like he's even steady/ready to dodge them?

The daggers you are bigging up literally have no notable speed feat that'd let you claim that someone who can pummel someone faster than Neji will evade all his strikes "neg diff". That's the epitome of wank right there. This becomes an amazing speed feat for Neji when you can provide a scan of these daggers doing something extraordinary.

You're implying light hits would cause Neji to stagger and as i mentioned before, that's a tactic that would have worked for Lee since he's faster and stronger than Neji but as we know, he never won implying Lee with all his strength and superior speed never tagged an inferior CE prelims Neji.

-CE Lee w/o Gates is not on VoTE Sasuke's level in CQC. Him failing to land a hit on Neji is irrelevant.
-You can't show that Lee used the Gates or not against Neji. Something he probably didn't do given that Gai told him not to

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unless he was protecting his comrades.
-Hitting him once and causing him to stagger wouldn't win him the match it lets him get a clean hit in.

So all you have is that CE Lee w/ weights on and without weights couldn't tag CE Neji, but a DB 1 Lee w/ weights on and without Gates would get stomped by Sasuke in close combat, especially since Sasuke has copied his weightless speed and has far superior reaction speed going by feats.

-No proof that Neji can evade Weightless Lee "low diff".

The only panel I ever found of Neji "neg diffing" Lee was before Lee changed his hair style and his clothing, i.e before Gai started training him.

 

[Unorthodox]

This fool is literally arguing against the manga itself w:..

No im just proving your shit logic wrong give this up i don't like beating on animals when they're down.

Naruto didn't choose to confront Neji in taijutsu directly so u saying he stomps him in Taijutsu or his speed being the main factor isn't supported by the fight itself.

-Bottom left panel shows Naruto's chakra cloak Expanding widely here..

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Sigh still using the same argument that have been shitted on the first part of your post looks exactly like the for 2 post you made head azs. Yes he was before Naruto's chakra amp Neji had no problem targeting him in cqc after he became to fast and strong for Neji to took the defense rout by using rotation whithout opting to dodge or do anything else but that why because it was his only option and by god if i have to repeat this shit again.

Upper left and right panels in this scan shows Neji being surprised at seeing the Chakra expand around Naruto and was clearly surprised by this , followed by The expanded chakra literally clashing with Neji's kaiten as a physical force of chakra.-Proctor even says Naruto unleached some crazy power at that moment right then when he clashed with Kaiten.

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Yet this fool is still trying to tell me his version of the manga and thinks he's right.:heh:

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Like i said same ole lines damn im not re citing the same shit with you again. Lol you either think im dum or just can't read no where in those lines does the procter say anything about him releasing more chakra at the last minute or during the clash with rotation try again, No im telling you the kishi's version of the Manga child.

It takes more time for Neji to spin in a full circle than to do a simply evasion move against a physical attack , Naruto ran at Neji with a Chakra charge which left no openings for that since it literally created a wall in front of Naruto which caught Neji off-guard and only then did he even think of using kaiten.

Makes no sense, If it takes more time why did he not just dodge with his superior "speed" lol and your proven false when Neji is put into a situation where he cannot dodge he always uses his rotation

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and unlike those two occasions he was not caught off guard which makes me believe it was because of Naruto's speed this rest is bs i countered already try again child.

The cloak there isn't bigger u idiot , nor it close to the amount of Chakra he released/expanded before Clashing with Kaiten as Genma noted.
Scan literally show Kurama's chakra physically making contact with Kaiten after it Expanded in page prior.

The cloak making contact means nothing when all it could do was slow it down Naruto fist made contact to also he could not wait to use the pitful scan. Genma never noted anything to him using more chakra at the moment of impact not sure if that's your fanfic your just pitful argumentation.

Genma says Naruto unleashed some crazy chakra/power to back up the fact that he unleashed more chakra/power along with the fact that it physically clashed with Neji's kaiten.

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He says nothing of the sorts all he says is that he unleashed a lot of chakra some freakish chakra never stated it was released when he attacked Neji for the final strike and as far as im concerned his chakra was the same size you never debunked my scan when Naruto first rushed at Neji how big his karama ura was.

Now if that doesn't make it clear that the chakra Naruto released became physical and could clearly be used as a form of defense or attack to clash with another wall of chakra (Kaiten) , then u should just dont reply to me with ur weak logic and bad understanding of the manga ..:elmo:

Lol smh you only got 1 point right and this is not the base of the argument to begin with still does not changed the facts that said about Naruto being to fast for him in that state same and forcing him to use rotation due to his power and speed so my points still remain you can have the little chakra wall as a point lol.

Ur right about him being able to physically evade but u saying Gaara>>>CE KN0 is based on ntn apart from the eyes and claws logic which was already debunked by Naruto using the eyes in the forest , then u say its not even close without any proof when Kurama's chakra was always known for the speed boost it grants Naruto.

That Gaara would ruin Naruto easily speed and strength wise too much length. FOD KN0 would get ragdolled by CE2 Sasuke much less that Gaara, The latter part of the setence makes no sense when did i ever deny kurama giving him a speed boost? your just typing now.

As if finding his resolve is enough to even come close to closing the gap between him and weighted Lee much less the boost KN0 granted Naruto lol. Saying Oro didn't hold back is even funnier along with this BS portrayal that didn't even happen at all not to mention it contradicts since u said Oro babied KN0 but got excited for Sasuke implying that Sasuke was portrayed above KN0 based on ur stupid logic , when the two situations doesn't even correlate for u to make such a static comparison.

It is Sasuke performed much better against Orochimaru then he did rock lee and like i said before jobbing Orochimaru speed is still tiers above none weighted lee, Stop acting like Sasuke was not fighting for his life against Orochimaru this goes back to Neji vs Naruto and Neji vs Kido how he took much more damage from Kido yet kept fighting why because it was life or death, If Sasuke would have fought Lee like he did Oro he would have most definitely took off his weights. No one said Oro did not held back can you read dumbass i said oro did not lower his fighting level meaning if Sasuke did better it would prove his is equal or superior. Nope Oro getting excited was partly due to his interest in Sasuke and his sharingan prowess also he was amazed how now he was able to read and track his movements.

Oro wanted to test Sasuke which was his whole mission and Naruto was in the way , Oro didn't even know that Naruto transformed into KN0 before Naruto saved sasuke , then Oro decided to completely shut Naruto out of the mode after restraining him in a way where he could not defend himself and this was due to him having to save Sasuke , so where the heck are u pulling this portrayal of Sasuke being on par with KN0 Naruto ???

The bold is bout the dumbest thing i heard he seen Naruto the moment he used his fox chakra

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now say something, Orochimaru shot a katon or whatever

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he did not raise his fighting level so no matter how you slice it Sasuke had a better showing against a jobbing Oro.

Based on ntn at all really and sure weighted Lee fodderized Base Naruto and negged Sasuke in taijutsu so wat? how does that prove Weighted Lee can do the same to KN0 who is dramatically faster than ur lord and Base Naruto not to mention faster than Weighted Lee himself when it doesn't even prove that Unweighted Lee is faster than ZA KN0 Naruto released more chakra than VOTE and was more triggered with Killing intent and rage??

KN0 is not drastically faster than anything i proved why in ZA Arc he was not even fast enough to catch Haku slipping from mirror to mirror while base sasuke knicked haku's leg. @Bold LMAO you cannot be serious unweighted lee would murdered that Naruto Haku is not even a mid tier speedster for part 1 kids could dodge him through the mirrors 1 tomoe Sasuke caught his ass note he was half dead and low on chakra 2 tomoe healthy Sasuke would run laps on him after that arc and he was a mere fodder in front of weighted lee, Feats prove Lee would mop Wave arc KN0 Naruto. He released more chakra then he did at VOTE? Lol even if it was true Him at VOTE was overall much stronger faster and every stat line so once they both use the same amp VOTE Naruto would obviously slaughter stomp that Naruto hell even without KN0 he would mop that Naruto. Killing intent yet he stopped at a moments notice because he recognize Haku at VOTE he used 1 tail stop with the bs.

Yes Lee was outnumbered by 3 people in the forest but he still had to open the first gate for lotus rather than blitz around them and neg them since he simply wasn't fast enough. KN0 could and would blitz the crap out of Dosu and his gang neg diff without any problems. Ur post doesn't debunk my point since KN0 Naruto would've taken them all out easier than CM1 Sasuke would and much easier than weighted Lee ever could so again u have no point.

SMH your hole post is based on the fact that all KN0 usages throughout the series are equivalent hell no your dumb asf lol. only reason why gated lee lost because he thought it was a one versus one he would have took out the wind pipe boy, and your post does not make since because KN0 Naruto at the time does not have the skill to take them all out dosu was pretty hax same with genjutsu girl. Where is the proof KN0 Naruto would have finished them easier than Sasuke?

This idiot clown is really trying to tell me that KN0 Naruto would've fell victim to ZAku's sound attack when Naruto is fast and strong enough to literally blitz this guy and tear his arms off when even sakura was keeping up with him smh. Sasuke taking zaku down in base is irrelevant to KN0 Naruto being fast enough to take zaku's whole team smh im getting tired of kicking ur illogical ass

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Showing a scan of Haku stop Haku speed is nothing to them dosu kept rock lee on his toes and zaku reacted to primary lotus, bringing up Sakura is stupidly desperate he was not even trying just causally beating her up we've seen him try against Sasuke and he would have smoked Sakura if serious.

His better growth is irrelevant to the amount of chakra he is using from kurama , KN0 Naruto from his haku fight is still much faster than his Base VOTE Self who could keep up with base VOTE Sasuke.

This is why i can't take you serious base VOTE Naruto has surpassed that KN0 speed by tiers do not even compared his growth is irrelevant child please. 1 times 10 is 10 but 10 times 10 is 100 that's what Wave arc Naruto is to VOTE Naruto their not even in the same weight class kid. Naruto uses more chakra at vote he only had a Kurama face appear against Haku the whole thing came out at vote and he was just a mad if not more so your point is stupidly flawed.

Wheres ur proof that weighted Lee is faster than ZA KN0 Naruto?? because ntn suggests that he was especially since Naruto was in full rage mode with a big transformation , why the heck would i listen to ur baseless claims when ntn backs them especially considering how much chakra Naruto released compared to VOTE showing he was obviously more triggered after thinking Sasuke died yet u think Base ZA Sasuke could be on par with him smh.

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My proof is Rock lee fodderized 2 tomoe Sasuke without a problem. Healthy 1 tomoe Sasuke would mop the floor with Haku half dead Sasuke already proved he was to much for Haku alone so he opted to attack Naruto to lure him in while on the other hand Haku could dodgde that Naruto when mirror jumping which was already semi countered by base Sasuke without Sharingan. That is my proof now where is your's tired of your tired ass argument especially on KN0 your logic is so dumb. He was not even that bloodlusted he stopped in mid punch Naruto at VOTE was pounding the shit out of Sasuke with out hesitation.

FOD Sasuke isn't that much stronger than the Sasuke from his fight with lee to make my point invalid since higher resolve along with passion is not enough to enormously boost prowess to the limit of wat ur implying.

Not just higher resolve his sharingan was not able to read Orochimaru before but when he came to the realization that he could die he became stronger and eyes we're able to follow orochimaru and counter him perfectly even surprising Oro himself,

Haku didn't even dodge Naruto for some time , the only instance is when tossed a few sebon then immediately flew to a mirror while Naruto deflected his senbon.

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The look on Naruto's face shows his surprised by Haku's speed he's even looking around like whats going on, and on top of the fact Haku stated that in the mirrors he could dodge him and this was given light considering Naruto jump at that chance to get Haku.

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even if what you said was true this would still put Haku in the same speed tier meaning my point stil remains.

U saying Sasuke was poratayed on par with KN0 is u taking portrayal out of context and wanking Sasuke especially considering that KN0 against haku released a larger amount of chakra than he seemed to unleash at VOTE and he was easily more emotionally triggered against haku since he thought that Sasuke had died so u saying ZA Arc Base Sasuke is on par with this KN0 is laughable at best.

No one said base Sasuke was on par with KN0 i really don't know why your saying that, Rest has been countered hard asf.

I can see why Kidgamer has a hard time putting up with ur nonsense. The bold is based on wat when we already know KN0 pushes his speed and chakra way beyond wat ZA 2T Sasuke since its the same KN0 only with slightly weaker stats while Sasuke has massively weaker stats and his sharingan would've done ntn to help him in reading Naruto's speed especially since Naruto released more chakra than he did against Oro in the haku fight.

I Can see why most people besides the classical hyuga fans ignore your dumbass the scappy things you try to put together and call logic got dam its annoying. Same KN0 Naruto im done this has been countered not repeating myself some sig this kid up please.

Sasuke never had better showing in CQC compared to KN0 and this nonsense is tiresome.

I was talking about your neji reference you dumbass Neji was forced to use rotation because of Naruto's bullrush while Sasuke layed the smack down on a much superior Naruto in cqc.

Sasuke attacks , Neji blocks while simultanously touching his tenketsu after blocking or he can release jyuken into the chakra pathways located at any area Sasuke uses to attack after blocking or deflecting Sasuke and since 3T cant predict chakra along with the fact that Neji touching him is sure to happen , it wont be long before he gets neged by jyuken.

Sasuke reads the kids movement in manhandles him like he did to a much superior combatant in KN0 VOTE Naruto, with ease, Neji blocking Sasuke is questionable since KN0 Naruto could not block a single hit and he has beast reaction time. Unless Neji striking speed is faster than 1 tailed Naruto is not touching him. Body blow is useless and its not taijutsu futhermore Sasuke will see the build up in chakra and jump out. Neji touching him is not likely like i said he's not at 1 tails Naruto striking speed and he has no chakra arms to get the sharingan.

U only backed up wet crap and sappy bias.

Cry to someone who gives a fuuuk because i do not.

Neji only needs to touch Sasuke u fool and touching does not have to mean direct hits. It can go as far as Neji parrying or blocking a hit then emitting Chakra from his tenketsu into Sasuke in that instance. Sasuke is going to be the first to attack in taijutsu so when he does Neji simply reacts , blocks then swiftly releases chakra since the chakra pathway is connected through the whole body and Neji can emit chakra and use jyuken from anywhere not just his hands.

Neji only parring someone as slow as hinata Sasuke is too fast for that and will read through his attacks add the fact he will see the chakra build up coming. Neji using body blow is not strictly taijutsu fight so nope and even if we conclude that he could use its far from instance he almost died by kidomaru just mustering up the chakra to do it someone who strikes much faster would tap that ass up way before it happens,

Neji never initiates offense in martial arts ever unless its required , so he'll simply be reacting to Sasuke's taijutsu defensively while simultaneously blocking tenketsu located in the arms and legs while also destroying the pathways located in those areas.

Sasuke is not hinata nor is he stupid dodging neji is not problem for him as he's reacted to much faster opponents, rest has been addressed.

64 palms is simply his jabbing speed , 32 to 64 palms in a instant is his normal jabbing speed , no way in hell is Sasuke physically avoiding getting touched a few times while in tight quarters where he's trying to attack Neji.

No where near instant stop reaching, Sasuke does not need to dodge them all and i have reason to say he could drunk lee dodged every last one of kimmi attack when he used camilia dance Sasuke dodge 1 tailed Naruto from the behind head up makes it much easier, Sasuke only has to dodge the first strike then he jumps out simple as that Neji just have wasted his chakra and his resources.

 

[neosmith500]

No im just proving your shit logic wrong give this up i don't like beating on animals when they're down.

The irony.

Sigh still using the same argument that have been shitted on the first part of your post looks exactly like the for 2 post you made head azs. Yes he was before Naruto's chakra amp Neji had no problem targeting him in cqc after he became to fast and strong for Neji to took the defense rout by using rotation whithout opting to dodge or do anything else but that why because it was his only option and by god if i have to repeat this shit again.

I never denied u idiot , after Naruto got the chakra amp he never directly confronted Neji in Taijutsu choosing to blitz to the side rather than go straight forward and the only time he did was when he Expanded his chakra cloak widely which means Taijutsu was impossible for Neji at that point so u didn't even counter anything as usual fool.

Like i said same ole lines damn im not re citing the same shit with you again. Lol you either think im dum or just can't read no where in those lines does the procter say anything about him releasing more chakra at the last minute or during the clash with rotation try again, No im telling you the kishi's version of the Manga child.

I do think ur dumb actually , Neji saw the expanded chakra to which he used kaiten to defend against the expanded chakra , explosion happens then kishi has Genma note the fact that Naruto released some crazy power and that Neji must be dead/defeated which makes it obvious that he was referring to that instance to anyone who has a brain.

Makes no sense, If it takes more time why did he not just dodge with his superior "speed" lol

He did wat he thought was best after seeing Naruto expand a Wall of Chakra around himself which caught him off-guard u clown and who said anything about superior speed.

and your proven false when Neji is put into a situation where he cannot dodge he always uses his rotation

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now say something, Orochimaru shot a katon or whatever

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he did not raise his fighting level so no matter how you slice it Sasuke had a better showing against a jobbing Oro.

I was wrong there but it does ntn to hurt my point , Naruto was busy beating the crap out of Oro's giant snake so him getting blasted by katon is irrelevant especially since Oro got rid of his snake in order to test his hard on for Sasuke uchiha. The rest of ur BS is irrelevant as usual.

KN0 is not drastically faster than anything i proved why in ZA Arc he was not even fast enough to catch Haku slipping from mirror to mirror while base sasuke knicked haku's leg. @Bold LMAO you cannot be serious unweighted lee would murdered that Naruto Haku is not even a mid tier speedster for part 1 kids could dodge him through the mirrors 1 tomoe Sasuke caught his ass note he was half dead and low on chakra 2 tomoe healthy Sasuke would run laps on him after that arc and he was a mere fodder in front of weighted lee, Feats prove Lee would mop Wave arc KN0 Naruto. He released more chakra then he did at VOTE? Lol even if it was true Him at VOTE was overall much stronger faster and every stat line so once they both use the same amp VOTE Naruto would obviously slaughter stomp that Naruto hell even without KN0 he would mop that Naruto. Killing intent yet he stopped at a moments notice because he recognize Haku at VOTE he used 1 tail stop with the bs.

How the heck could he catch Haku when he doesn't have Sharingan to read his movements through the mirrors like Sasuke u clown? I agree that KN0 would obviously be stronger at VOTE which i never denied but Base VOTE Naruto being able to beat ZA KN0 Naruto in a purely physical contest needs proof since one Naruto has much superior stats granted by Kurama while the other has superior base stats compared to the base of the other , and in regards to ur killing intent nonsense.

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Clearly Naruto had actual killing intent against Haku and none against Sasuke only rage which he also had a ample supply of against Haku.

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-In VOTE he used 1 tail because he got stomped by Sasuke and kurama gave him more chakra , ntn about killing intent there buddy.

-Nobody denied that VOTE KN0 would stomp ZA KN0 so stop beating around and bringing up irrelevant comparisons.

SMH your hole post is based on the fact that all KN0 usages throughout the series are equivalent hell no your dumb asf lol.

I never said all KN0 are equivalent which doesn't even make sense since i stressed that Naruto was using much more chakra gainst Haku than he did against Oro lol.

only reason why gated lee lost because he thought it was a one versus one he would have took out the wind pipe boy, and your post does not make since because KN0 Naruto at the time does not have the skill to take them all out dosu was pretty hax same with genjutsu girl. Where is the proof KN0 Naruto would have finished them easier than Sasuke?

Lee thought it was a one versus one? anyways skill is irrelevant here since Naruto has the speed , power and chakra to blitz the heck outa them , heck Dosu was scared as shit after seeing how big CM1 Sasuke's chakra was much less KN0 who was destroying the surrounding area and pushing back Haku with pure chakra not to mention having his Chakra sensed by Zabuza and Kakashi. Read and compare every scan here and think about wat ur saying u dame fool.

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Showing a scan of Haku stop Haku speed is nothing to them dosu kept rock lee on his toes and zaku reacted to primary lotus, bringing up Sakura is stupidly desperate he was not even trying just causally beating her up we've seen him try against Sasuke and he would have smoked Sakura if serious.

Dosu was only able to do that after Lee used the lotus and was feeling the backclash u idiot , are u really going to compare that Lee to a fresh KN0 Naruto?? Lmao.

-Zaku saw wat Lee was planning to do to Dosu then took steps to prevent it AND Sakura fooled zaku with substitutions , KN0 would blitz the crap outa them much less Zaku alone lmao clown.

This is why i can't take you serious base VOTE Naruto has surpassed that KN0 speed by tiers do not even compared his growth is irrelevant child please.

Show dame proof of this u idiot and stop acting so high and mighty because im not talking about VOTE KN0 im talking about Base.

1 times 10 is 10 but 10 times 10 is 100 that's what Wave arc Naruto is to VOTE Naruto their not even in the same weight class kid. Naruto uses more chakra at vote he only had a Kurama face appear against Haku the whole thing came out at vote and he was just a mad if not more so your point is stupidly flawed.

U have zero proof that he actually released more chakra at VOTE , but yes he still would be much stronger at using KN0 at VOTE due to base stats scaling , but nobody denied this and Naruto had the eyes and Claws against Haku so gtfo and read the manga.

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Its debatable if he was more angry or not in VOTE since he literally thought Sasuke died against Haku which allowed him to release a massive amount of chakra while fueled by killing intent and anger.

-Naruto was in full control of his KN0 against Sasuke , while against Haku the dude was complely driven by killing intent and animal instinct with pure rage.

My proof is Rock lee fodderized 2 tomoe Sasuke without a problem. Healthy 1 tomoe Sasuke would mop the floor with Haku half dead Sasuke already proved he was to much for Haku alone so he opted to attack Naruto to lure him in while on the other hand Haku could dodgde that Naruto when mirror jumping which was already semi countered by base Sasuke without Sharingan. That is my proof now where is your's tired of your tired ass argument especially on KN0 your logic is so dumb. He was not even that bloodlusted he stopped in mid punch Naruto at VOTE was pounding the shit out of Sasuke with out hesitation.

I already covered all this crap and in regards to the bold thats completely irrelevant since Naruto's goal was to beat Sasuke into submission while against Haku he was fighting like a complete beast then snapped out of it after seeing Haku's calm face.

-Saying ZA Base Sasuke could possibly be on par with ZA KN0 just proves how much of a retard u are.

Not just higher resolve his sharingan was not able to read Orochimaru before but when he came to the realization that he could die he became stronger and eyes we're able to follow orochimaru and counter him perfectly even surprising Oro himself,

Show me scans of Sasuke trying to read Oro's movement before or GTO with ur nonsense , stay wanking fool.

The look on Naruto's face shows his surprised by Haku's speed he's even looking around like whats going on, and on top of the fact Haku stated that in the mirrors he could dodge him and this was given light considering Naruto jump at that chance to get Haku.

Again Naruto doesn't have sharingan to read moves so why the heck wouldn't he be surprised after using a chakra roar only to see that Haku slipped by him in that instance?? Sasuke would be able to see this because of Sharingan.

even if what you said was true this would still put Haku in the same speed tier meaning my point stil remains.

Ur point only stands on ur hard on for Sasuke.

-ZA KN0 Naruto is tiers faster than Haku and ZA Sasuke , stay wanking clown stay wanking till ur palms bleed.

No one said base Sasuke was on par with KN0 i really don't know why your saying that, Rest has been countered hard asf.

U said Base Sasuke was portrayed on par with KN0 from his Haku fight and even said Sasuke performed better in CQC lol.

-U said FOD Base Sasuke was portrayed on par with FOD KN0.

I Can see why most people besides the classical hyuga fans ignore your dumbass the scappy things you try to put together and call logic got dam its annoying. Same KN0 Naruto im done this has been countered not repeating myself some sig this kid up please.

Its the same KN0 only with weaker stats due to Naruto's base stats being weaker u clown , why wouldn't that be the case lets hear it??

I was talking about your neji reference you dumbass Neji was forced to use rotation because of Naruto's bullrush while Sasuke layed the smack down on a much superior Naruto in cqc.

Neji was forced to use kaiten because of the bottom left panel here.

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Put Sasuke in the same situation Neji was in and he would've been forced to completely avoid Naruto's bullrush unless he's gonna punch through the expanded chakra which was able to clash with Kaiten and send both flying , it wouldn't surprise me if u think he would tbh with ur dumb ass.

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Its funny that u discredit my logic when any person reading this would obviously see that im literally taking a fat dump on the weak crap u call points lmao and my main point which started this whole debate has already been handled.

Sasuke reads the kids movement in manhandles him like he did to a much superior combatant in KN0 VOTE Naruto, with ease, Neji blocking Sasuke is questionable since KN0 Naruto could not block a single hit and he has beast reaction time. Unless Neji striking speed is faster than 1 tailed Naruto is not touching him. Body blow is useless and its not taijutsu futhermore Sasuke will see the build up in chakra and jump out. Neji touching him is not likely like i said he's not at 1 tails Naruto striking speed and he has no chakra arms to get the sharingan.

How would Naruto block if he's the one trying to attack Sasuke by rushing in with movement speed?? Sasuke isn't attacking faster than Neji can parry/block so stay wanking and ur not even taking into account that this is a straight up Taijutsu fight not a rush in and try to hit fight so idk why u keep bringing up Naruto here , maybe to stimulate ur Sasuke hard on more it seems.

Neji only parring someone as slow as hinata Sasuke is too fast for that and will read through his attacks add the fact he will see the chakra build up coming. Neji using body blow is not strictly taijutsu fight so nope and even if we conclude that he could use its far from instance he almost died by kidomaru just mustering up the chakra to do it someone who strikes much faster would tap that ass up way before it happens,

Sasuke reading Neji's movement after Sasuke launches a attack is irrelevant to Neji being successful in blocking said attack and jyuken is his Taijutsu and it doesn't take anytime for Neji to release chakra out of a single body part. He did the same thing to kido's webs in these instances.

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He doesn't have to emit chakra from every single tenketsu like he does for Body blow so when Sasuke makes a physical attack and Neji parries or blocks , he simply emits chakra into Sasuke.

Sasuke is not hinata nor is he stupid dodging neji is not problem for him as he's reacted to much faster opponents, rest has been addressed.

U Keep bringing up Naruto and Hinata when both are irrlevant.

No where near instant stop reaching, Sasuke does not need to dodge them all and i have reason to say he could drunk lee dodged every last one of kimmi attack when he used camilia dance Sasuke dodge 1 tailed Naruto from the behind head up makes it much easier, Sasuke only has to dodge the first strike then he jumps out simple as that Neji just have wasted his chakra and his resources.

Im referring to his jabbing speed and Drunken Lee does not = Sasuke when we know that that same Kimiaro would've stomped the crap out of Sasuke in straight up taijutsu unless ur dumb ass thinks Sasuke could outperform kimi like Drunk Lee did.. U keep bringing up Naruto when he himself got neg diffed by Kimi even with a army of clones then u try to compare Drunken lee dodging Kimi to try and equate Sasuke doing the same to Neji which doesn't even make sense since Jabbing and touching>>>>>Striking , so yea im tired of kicking ur weak ass so dont reply because im tried of having to repeat myself to ur dumb ass especially since my main point has already be proven.

 

[Jinrou]

Which doesn't change the fact that strength was used to what he did.

Never disputed that. I'm trying to point out that it was the speed that allowed the strengthened kick to connect in the first place.

Which is a point I never denied, doesn't mean that the person who strikes the fastest automatically wins. And the rest of this part of your post doesn't make sense. You say ducking isn't an excuse for him being unable to dodge because he has the speed to dodge even though him having the speed to dodge a head on kick from Zabuza doesn't mean that he'll dodge an immediate follow up kick from Zabuza after Zabuza had already swung his blade at him which leaves Kakashi vulnerable and Zabuza in an advantageous position.

Saying "it's not an excuse because he's fast enough" isn't even an argument. Especially when Zabuza and Kakashi are already near each other in speed w/o Sharingan.

Strongly disagree with the bold. Naruto and Zabuza both forced Kakashi into a ducking position and both followed up with another strike. Kakashi got out of Naruto's strike but didn't get out of Zabuza's strike why? Obviously because Zabuza's strike was faster.

Kakashi had 3T sharingan which grants precog and faster reactions on top of his already fast reactions. Kakashi was obviously looking at Zabuza which means 3T logically should have showed him Zabuza's moves before his leg actually left the ground for the kick. And despite all this, Kakashi doesn't dodge..why?

Your point doesn't work because Naruto is nowhere near Zabuza or Kakashi's level of speed. Speed is the most important part of this scenario so I'm not sure why you think providing an example where Kakashi is far faster than his opposition proves your point here.

It does..because it shows Kakashi was able to evade Naruto's follow up strike despite being in a ducking position because Naruto was slow while he wasn't able to evade Zabuza's follow up strike despite viewing with 3T because Zabuza's was fast.

All of Neji's strikes? Who said he'll dodge all of Neji's strikes? I said he'll dodge Neji's initial 64 palms strikes and then counter attack, or he'll parry Neji's regular strikes and kicks used against Naruto and Hinata in regular CQC and then counter attack. Sasuke can't dodge all of Neji's attacks.

Fine look at it this way. Neji's eight trigrams 64 palms has stages. The stages we know of include: (

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- 2 palms
- 4 palms
- 16 palms
- 32 palms
- 64 palms

Looking at that process...logically it's a fact that Neji's instant striking speed caps off at 32 different strikes in an instant. After initially completing 32 palms, he does another 32 palms in an instant (without any pauses) to complete the 8 trigrams 64 palms.

So, can Sasuke dodge 32 instant strike attacks?

Also this parry is a thing i consider more difficult to do than dodging or blocking. Neji and

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are the only characters i recollect parrying attacks. And it makes sense since both train in taijutsu. So are there scans of Sasuke actually performing a parry?

Read below, further on in this post. Not sure what kind of fights you've watched to think that every single missed attack results in someone being thrown off balance.

Simultaneous punches in an instant? Lol not like Neji can even do that to begin with.

@underlined... Naruto is outright directed downwards from Lee's parry (

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Hinata obviously wasn't planning to aim downwards. Neji placed his hand on top of hers during his parry and assisted her movement in that direction. (

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Neji uses the kagebunshins to give himself more uplift to jump over them. He doesn't use force to push their heads downwards completely as if he did, the distance gained after jumping over won't be much. In the next panel we see the two clones on the floor meters away from Neji. That's consistent with Neji pushing their heads in the original way they were going as he jumped over them causing them to actually trip completely (

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Naruto was coming at Sasuke with full speed. Sasuke dodges and the result is we see Naruto a few metres away from where he intentionally wanted his punch to connect and we also very clearly see his left hand on the floor to support him from tripping and falling over. (

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All these didn't happen because Hinata and Naruto weren't skilled or not durable or anything for that matter.. They happened because the laws of motion/momentum applies to everyone irrespective of how your body is.

And besides, if you tried to punch someone and the person dodged entirely, you think your balance would be 100% at the time you expect your punch to connect but doesn't connect? That punch continues in the direction it was already going in. You won't be at 100% balance.

@bold see above

No, it's because of all physical abilities combined. That's why skill isn't the most important factor in all close quarter fights. That's the point I'm trying to make.

Agreed.

The instances where Neji allegedly neg diffed 1st Gate and Weightless Lee with nothing but hand to hand and where said Lee was unable to tag Neji.

The very fact 5G was mentioned as one of the requirements needed to beat Neji is proof enough is it not? It implies no matter the preparation, training that unweighted and 1st gate Lee undergoes, he would never defeat Neji.

You haven't proven what you need to prove. You simply restated what you already stated in the last post but with a scan saying that the Gates are crippling even though we know that the Gates are crippling. You are supposed to be proving that the Gates and Gentle Fist deal damage similar to each other in magnitude.

Hinata was able to stand up from Neji's gentle fist strikes multiple times iirc. Lee is more durable than Hinata. Gates make him tank the pain Hinata got from Neji's gentle fist strikes. My entire point is in gates, Lee tanks the pain gentle fist gives as it's already tanking pain from the damage done by the gates themselves.

If they are sparring Neji doesn't need to go that far because Lee isn't going that far and using the 5th Gate to fight him, so I have no idea why you continue to mention sparring as if it's proof of anything you are saying. Especially when you've yet to prove that the damage the gates causes to his body and the damage Gentle Fist would cause to his body are alike enough to make your comparison valid.

Again, the fact that 5G is even mentioned is proof that unweighted and 1G Lee aren't enough for Neji. In the manga, Neji was never fazed by unweighted, 1st and 2nd Gated Lee implying he's seen those forms of Lee in action. Gates make him tank gentle fist pain that the less durable Hinata was able to get back up from multiple times.

If your comparison was even valid in the first place Gai wouldn't have stated outright that the goal of the Ura Renge is to pummel Neji into the ground before he can touch Lee, hence him saying it's a high speed Taijutsu combo that can't be touched. What you are doing at this point is simply arguing against what Gai already stated using hypotheticals. Lee's issue was not being touched by Neji, and that's clearly because of the Gentle Fist unless Neji has some other near deadly technique that'd result in Lee needing to avoid being touched to have a clear shot at victory.

Unfortunately that is your interpretation. If Neji can't touch Lee in that state, doesn't it mean its because Lee's fast enough (high speed combo) to hit him before Neji can touch him?

-Sasuke has superior reaction speed, physical strength and he's more durable than Neji at VoTe.
-Sasuke hits harder than Neji does as he was able to floor KN0 with a punch and a kick.
-Neji doesn't hit as hard so he'll have to hit Sasuke more if he wants to win.

If Neji attacks Sasuke with his normal Taijutsu style that he used against Naruto and Hinata, Sasuke parries his attacks and then beats him down. Superior striking strength means little when your opponent can block your attacks. If Neji attacks with 64 palms like it's been suggested elsewhere in this thread, Sasuke either dodges them entirely by simply keeping his distance from Neji, or when Neji lunges forward for the initial two strikes Sasuke dodges forward to the side and then attacks Neji while he's in the middle of his attack.

If Neji waits for Sasuke to come at him first, Sasuke attacks and:

-If Neji dodges said attack Sasuke simply attacks him again until he lands.
-If Neji blocks said attack then it becomes a brawl, which Neji loses unless he breaks free.
-If Neji dodges said attack and then tries to counter attack Sasuke blocks and then it either becomes a brawl or they break from each other and restart the process.

And if at any point Neji tries to use 64 palms, Sasuke creates distance. Even if he takes a few hits in the process, Neji won't be putting him down with only a few strikes as Gentle Fist is restricted. And keep in mind Sasuke can move as fast as Weightless Lee when he wants to, so for a short while Neji has to fight someone as fast as Weightless Lee (far faster than him) but with FAR better reaction speed than said Lee and better reaction speed than him. That almost puts Sasuke above Neji's level completely in hand to hand as skill goes out the window when Sasuke is copying the exact movements of someone who is almost as skilled as he is in Taijutsu.

Sasuke has superior reaction speed? How come? Are you basing it on the fact he was able to evade a Naruto coming from a distance with a single punch? Movement speed =/= striking speed. You have to show Sasuke would be able to react faster than Neji can hit in close quarters.

Scenario 1
- Neji never attacked Naruto and Hinata in cqc. Attacking and counterattacking are two different things i believe and we clearly see he does the latter.

- Neji can hit 32 times simultaneously in an instant.

Scenario 2

''If Neji dodges said attack Sasuke simply attacks him again until he lands.'' -
This quote is implying Sasuke has notable striking speed which i don't think you've proven. Sasuke needs his footing right to be able to hit again does he not? And what do you gather Neji would be doing in that brief moment?

''If Neji dodges said attack and then tries to counter attack Sasuke blocks and then it either becomes a brawl or they break from each other and restart the process.'' -
How exactly does one block a counter attack without any notable cqc evasive speed feats? Reacting to Naruto from a distance is not the same as reacting to multiple strikes in close combat where there is no time advantage one would have compared to the time advantage one has from distance attacks.

And if at any point Neji tries to use 64 palms, Sasuke creates distance.-
The 64 palms has a divination range you entirely must escape out of before..creating a little distance means nothing if you're still in it's range. Sasuke knows nothing about it's range and can't see it either.

That almost puts Sasuke above Neji's level completely in hand to hand-
This entirely came out of nowhere man. Weightless and unweighted Lee are fast yes...but as i've said before, movement speed =/= striking speed. And Lee doesn't have a byakugan that can track speed of attacks in cqc. He was not close to Neji's skill in taijutsu.

"Neji dodges Sasuke's attacks neg diff and then obliterates him" is a ridiculous argument that's literally only based one feat Neji has, and that's him evading daggers with no speed feats that mean that he dodges all of Sasuke's attacks neg diff when Sasuke can easily tag someone faster than Neji himself.

Touched on below.

-Reaction speed.
-Strength.
-Durability.

Those are physical abilities that Sasuke trumps Neji in. The only thing Neji is superior in is movement speed without Shunshin as per his DB score and when we take into account the fact that Sasuke can move as fast as Weightless Lee he becomes far superior in movement speed as well.

Entirely disagree. No proof Sasuke's reaction speed is > than Neji's in cqc, SRA Neji is faster than weightless Lee (And faster in striking speed of all forms of Lee up to 2nd gate) and durability is a so-so. Did Naruto actually hit base Sasuke for us to know how durable he is? Because we have SRA Neji moving with a gaping hole in him and using shunshin and destroying Kido with another fatal wound to accompany that gaping hole.

All I said there is that the Sharingan will predict it. Who said that Sasuke will react and THEN dodge or counter attack? Who used that instance as absolute evidence that Sasuke would dodge Neji's strike after he himself had already struck? If he rushes at Neji and ends up in the position you are claiming he'll end up in a block is all he'll need to survive since a few hits from Neji isn't going to put him down.

And Sasuke completely evaded Naruto's fist the first time and the second time as the images show.

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Meaning that cut must be from the pressure or "shockwave" of Naruto's attack.

If Sharingan predicts it, won't Sasuke have to react to it too? Also can Sharingan really predict a defensive strike (counter attack)?

We have implications a 1 and half sharingan was able to read Haku's speed (

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) but then a more mature 2T sharingan was unable to read Lee's defensive strike (

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) confirmed by Sasuke himself (

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). Is there a reason why an inferior sharingan was able to track and read Haku but was unable to read Lee's defensive strike?

So Naruto's punch does have shock-waves. Yet most of the arguments brought for Sasuke by some in this thread is that Neji would lose because he needed rotation against the obvious massive aoe shock-wave (that has cutting abilities like we see with Sasuke) Naruto was bringing with him?

Recover? What aren't you understanding? There is nothing he needs to recover from. A light punch won't leave him in any disadvantageous position like when Naruto rushed him at full force.

A light force won't be able to utilize Sasuke's full strength though meaning he'll need more and more light punches to take Neji down. And that is if he even connects.

Lmao a light punch that actually connects with Neji properly would cause him to stagger. Why are you even bothering to mention Lee and Neji's sparring matches when those took place before the Chunnin Exams, meaning that's DB 1 Lee and Neji. That Lee is not superior to Sasuke at VoTE in CQC. As for Gates, you have no idea how many Gates Lee may have used against Neji during their sparring matches as they are all off screen.

Lee would have at least used the first two because Neji only reacted in shock when he opened the 3rd gate. (

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). 1st gate Lee should logically be fast enough to land these light punches you talk about but since we know he's never won against Neji, its likely said punches that would make Neji stagger and open to heavier punches never connected.

Lmao and why would I have to prove that it ISN'T necessary when no feat he has would warrant the opponent to need super fast striking speed to strike him? Don't try to make a claim and then say "you can't disprove it so I'm right" please. Not how you argue. The only back up I saw for this point was that Lee needed Ura Renge to defeat Neji, but that's not because Neji can evade all of 5G Lee's strikes as I've already shown so the amount of proof you have for this statement is literally zero.

Not counting those nonsense spider web and dagger dodging feats for reasons already explained.

Then did you ever consider how a faster and stronger unweighted and 1st gate Lee still ended up losing to Neji? Hinata stood up multiple times from his gentle fist strikes. Those strikes are tanked with gates seeing as Lee has his body crippled when the boost wears off.

- Your reasons don't seem logical enough.

That someone was coming at Sasuke from less than 5m away (KN0 and KN1) with back to back attacks (only KN0) and Sasuke still dodged him. Not sure what that has to do with my point anyway.

Movement speed =/= striking speed. Those back to back attacks aren't cqc no distance attacks as we clearly see Naruto approaching from distances (

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)-(

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).

Lmao you cannot be serious with this. Where did you get 64 from? Where do you see Neji using 64 palms here? Kidomaru was hanging upside down, Neji jumps in front of him, jabs him and he spins around due to the force and dies. Please don't try and continue arguing that Neji struck 64 times in an instant.

Are you joking though because we clearly see Neji's hands and finger positions with Kido also saying i can't channel my chakra as he loses his v2 form. (

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) If you aren't joking, then you're telling me there's another hyuga technique used to shut off chakra entirely that i honestly don't know about. So could you tell me the technique Neji used there?

Which proves what exactly? Cause nothing you just said had anything to do with what you just quoted. Neji had to dodge them one by one because of the area they covered, not because of the speed. :lol

The daggers you are bigging up literally have no notable speed feat that'd let you claim that someone who can pummel someone faster than Neji will evade all his strikes "neg diff". That's the epitome of wank right there. This becomes an amazing speed feat for Neji when you can provide a scan of these daggers doing something extraordinary.

Tbh i'm very bad with visually measuring distances by numbers (eg 50m and so on) But according to the manga, the same location where Kido was unleashing daggers at Neji was the same place Kido was staying to fire those final arrows (

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).

That would mean the daggers traveled the entire distance we see in the top panel

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.

Now you claim the daggers have no speed feat but it seems very absurd that these daggers that Neji can see when they enter his 50m radius will be coming at such a slow speed and Neji's only option will be to dodge them 1 by 1. That makes absolutely no sense.

For one, if they are moving as slow as you are trying to claim, they'll lose their Kinetic energy and begin falling off at some point before they actually reach Neji. And then we actually have them coming from over 50m out almost at the same speed as Neji can cut the spider webs that restrain him from using Kaiten (

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)?

I also didn't realize this before ..(

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). Neji still had to destroy that spider web that has the ability to restrain his movements before dodging the 3 layered dagger attack coming at him from every possible angle yet he still dodged those daggers low diff.

I'm really not seeing what you are claiming with your attempt to downplay this feat man and I hope you can shed light on this better. Like what speed do you think those daggers have because they are obviously launched from something. And launched things like arrows for example have speed.

@bold who is that someone that can pummel faster than Neji? Sasuke or Naruto? Proof please?

It yields the same result in combat so it barely matters whether or not it was raw speed or not.

Timing something right does not equate to having speed faster than what you're timing against. I can time a jump out of the range of a car that's trying to hit me. But i can't outrun a car.

-CE Lee w/o Gates is not on VoTE Sasuke's level in CQC. Him failing to land a hit on Neji is irrelevant.
-You can't show that Lee used the Gates or not against Neji. Something he probably didn't do given that Gai told him not to

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unless he was protecting his comrades.
-Hitting him once and causing him to stagger wouldn't win him the match it lets him get a clean hit in.

-So all you have is that CE Lee w/ weights on and without weights couldn't tag CE Neji, but a DB 1 Lee w/ weights on and without Gates would get stomped by Sasuke in close combat, especially since Sasuke has copied his weightless speed and has far superior reaction speed going by feats.

-No proof that Neji can evade Weightless Lee "low diff".

The only panel I ever found of Neji "neg diffing" Lee was before Lee changed his hair style and his clothing, i.e before Gai started training him.

- To be fair though, DB1 still places Lee stronger than VoTE Sasuke in stats pertaining to taijutsu. He's faster, has better Taijutsu skills and has the same strength. Though i'm pretty sure Sharingan would raise Taijutsu stats to be on Lee's level..or possibly higher?
Prelims Neji never lost against that Lee and though you would like to add Gentle fist, we've seen Hinata was durable enough to get back up multiple times after getting struck and Lee is more durable than her.

- Then how would Gai know 1st and 2nd gates won't be enough to defeat Neji?

- I know...it implies Lee never tagged Neji as it's that simple.

- SRA Neji is faster than weightless Lee.

- It's as easy as Lee tagging him with light punches leaving him staggered and connecting with heavier punches. As far as we know, that never happened.

- So after Gai starts training him, Lee never challenged Neji again? That goes against his character. (

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Sorry for the late response btw..PC and Internet issues.

 

[neosmith500]

This entirely came out of nowhere man. Weightless and unweighted Lee are fast yes...but as i've said before, movement speed =/= striking speed. And Lee doesn't have a byakugan that can track speed of attacks in cqc. He was not close to Neji's skill in taijutsu.

.

Could u elaborate on the bold or do u mean to replace the word skill with ability?? both are Geniuses in Taijutsu with contrasting styles , saying Lee isn't even close isn't based on anything at all in this manga , at best u could say both were portrayed on par , but the bold literally makes no sense tbh considering how kishi portrayed both.

 

[KidGamer65]

Never disputed that. I'm trying to point out that it was the speed that allowed the strengthened kick to connect in the first place.

Speed and the fact that Kakashi was in a disadvantageous position.

Strongly disagree with the bold. Naruto and Zabuza both forced Kakashi into a ducking position and both followed up with another strike. Kakashi got out of Naruto's strike but didn't get out of Zabuza's strike why? Obviously because Zabuza's strike was faster.


Kakashi had 3T sharingan which grants precog and faster reactions on top of his already fast reactions. Kakashi was obviously looking at Zabuza which means 3T logically should have showed him Zabuza's moves before his leg actually left the ground for the kick. And despite all this, Kakashi doesn't dodge..why?

Which doesn't prove your point so I'm not sure why you bothered typing this up. The point you are trying to prove isn't that Zabuza>Naruto in speed because that's obvious, it's that Kakashi couldn't dodge solely because of the speed. Though that's a point you can't prove and that's why you are now repeating the same thing over and over again while ignoring what is clearly in front of you.

Zabuza managed to land a kick on Kakashi after forcing him into a disadvantageous position after surprising him from behind. In what world is that proof that if he just tried to head on kick Kakashi with no kind of trick Kakashi wouldn't react? :lol

It does..because it shows Kakashi was able to evade Naruto's follow up strike despite being in a ducking position because Naruto was slow while he wasn't able to evade Zabuza's follow up strike despite viewing with 3T because Zabuza's was fast.

No, it doesn't. Stop using this terrible logic. It proves that despite Kakashi having to duck for Naruto's first attack, he's still fast enough to evade Naruto's follow up attack because Kakashi>>>>Naruto in speed, so whatever disadvantage Kakashi puts himself at is negated by the fact that Kakashi is tiers above him in speed. Kakashi>=Zabuza in speed, thus if Zabuza puts him in a disadvantage like that there's no guarantee he evades.

What makes your Naruto point make even less sense is that Zabuza attacked Kakashi from the back. Naruto came at him from the side.

Fine look at it this way. Neji's eight trigrams 64 palms has stages. The stages we know of include: (

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)-(

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- 2 palms
- 4 palms
- 16 palms
- 32 palms
- 64 palms

Looking at that process...logically it's a fact that Neji's instant striking speed caps off at 32 different strikes in an instant. After initially completing 32 palms, he does another 32 palms in an instant (without any pauses) to complete the 8 trigrams 64 palms.

So, can Sasuke dodge 32 instant strike attacks?

You really need to stop with this. Neji does not, can not, and will not ever make strikes anywhere fast enough to warrant you using the term "instant". Neji's strikes are all consecutive, meaning one after another, they are just fast. And the only way he'd have to dodge anywhere close to 32 strikes if is he sat there and let Neji keep attacking after he began eight trigrams, and I've noted multiple ways he dodges, blocks or parries to escape, the easiest way being creating some distance since then he wouldn't need to evade 32 strikes, as long as he has the speed to create distance and escape from a single strike he'd dodge all 32 as all 32 strikes have the same reach.

Also this parry is a thing i consider more difficult to do than dodging or blocking. Neji and

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are the only characters i recollect parrying attacks. And it makes sense since both train in taijutsu. So are there scans of Sasuke actually performing a parry?

In terms of difficulty it goes Dodging>Parrying>Blocking and that's because Dodging requires more effort than parrying as you are moving more of your body, and parrying requires more effort because you move more of your body to simply make a defensive stance, which would be blocking. So no, what you are saying doesn't make sense, especially since you've yet to actually explain why parrying is a more difficulty

@bold: lmao wtf? This guy is actually asking for a scan of Sasuke performing a parry? Let's use common sense first. A parry is knocking away the enemy attack with an attack of your own. Nothing more, nothing less. If Sasuke can attack, if Sasuke has the speed to react and the speed to dodge the only way he wouldn't be fast enough to parry an enemy attack is if:

-He was retarded.
-He chose not to.
-He wasn't strong enough.

And none of those things apply here.

@underlined... Naruto is outright directed downwards from Lee's parry (

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Hinata obviously wasn't planning to aim downwards. Neji placed his hand on top of hers during his parry and assisted her movement in that direction. (

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Neji uses the kagebunshins to give himself more uplift to jump over them. He doesn't use force to push their heads downwards completely as if he did, the distance gained after jumping over won't be much. In the next panel we see the two clones on the floor meters away from Neji. That's consistent with Neji pushing their heads in the original way they were going as he jumped over them causing them to actually trip completely (

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That's obviously not a missed attack. That's a parried attack. Obviously if Sasuke got hit in the same manner it'd be GG, but all your instances of Neji embarrassing people like that in CQC are examples where he was far superior to his opponent in almost every physical stat bar strength. Says literally nothing about what he'll do to someone near his level in physical ability who can copy the speed of someone faster than him w/ Sharingan on top of that.

Naruto was coming at Sasuke with full speed. Sasuke dodges and the result is we see Naruto a few metres away from where he intentionally wanted his punch to connect and we also very clearly see his left hand on the floor to support him from tripping and falling over. (

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Lmao I've already addressed this multiple times. Naruto was going at full speed, I already stated Sasuke doesn't need to do anything similar.

All these didn't happen because Hinata and Naruto weren't skilled or not durable or anything for that matter.. They happened because the laws of motion/momentum applies to everyone irrespective of how your body is.

And besides, if you tried to punch someone and the person dodged entirely, you think your balance would be 100% at the time you expect your punch to connect but doesn't connect? That punch continues in the direction it was already going in. You won't be at 100% balance.

@bold see above

Lol. Your examples don't show dodges, they show parries. So the bolded statement is left backed by nothing. The only way you stagger when you miss an attack is if you have bad footing and put too much movement into your attack. That's a fact. Sasuke doesn't need to do either so how is he going to stagger?

The very fact 5G was mentioned as one of the requirements needed to beat Neji is proof enough is it not? It implies no matter the preparation, training that unweighted and 1st gate Lee undergoes, he would never defeat Neji.

That's not proof Neji w/ hand to hand can neg diff Lee outside of the 5th Gate it's proof that Neji w/ Gentle Fist can defeat Lee up until the 5th Gate. All this neg diffing business and dodging all attacks stuff you keep talking about is based on literally nothing.

Hinata was able to stand up from Neji's gentle fist strikes multiple times iirc. Lee is more durable than Hinata. Gates make him tank the pain Hinata got from Neji's gentle fist strikes. My entire point is in gates, Lee tanks the pain gentle fist gives as it's already tanking pain from the damage done by the gates themselves.

Yes, if Neji uses the same lethality of attack on Lee as he did on Hinata, which wouldn't make sense as 5G Lee>>>Hinata.

I'm not going to repeat myself on this point. Gai has made it clear why Lee needed Ura Renge and that is to avoid getting touched. You bringing up hypotheticals doesn't matter when Gai himself stated that Lee would need to avoid getting touched in order to defeat Neji.

Again, the fact that 5G is even mentioned is proof that unweighted and 1G Lee aren't enough for Neji. In the manga, Neji was never fazed by unweighted, 1st and 2nd Gated Lee implying he's seen those forms of Lee in action. Gates make him tank gentle fist pain that the less durable Hinata was able to get back up from multiple times.

That doesn't prove that restricted Neji would neg diff Unweighted Lee or 1G Lee which is what I wanted proof for since you made that claim, it's proof that he'd win with all his abilities.

Unfortunately that is your interpretation. If Neji can't touch Lee in that state, doesn't it mean its because Lee's fast enough (high speed combo) to hit him before Neji can touch him?

Words don't have subjective meanings. "It is a super high speed Taijutsu that can't even be touched" "This is the key to beating Neji". Unless Gai threw that in the for shits and giggles you don't have an argument here. He mentioned "can't even be touched" because that's what makes Ura Renge capable of defeating Neji. Not sure why you are arguing against what the Manga has clearly stated.

Sasuke has superior reaction speed? How come? Are you basing it on the fact he was able to evade a Naruto coming from a distance with a single punch? Movement speed =/= striking speed. You have to show Sasuke would be able to react faster than Neji can hit in close quarters.

You say Neji has superior reaction speed, then you use striking speed as evidence of reaction speed when reaction speed literally has jack to do with striking speed. :lol Reacting to KN1 is a better feat than Neji has in this Manga. Meaning Sasuke>Neji in reaction speed. Bold and the rest of this part of your post have nothing to do with the point that Sasuke>Neji in reaction speed.

Scenario 1
- Neji never attacked Naruto and Hinata in cqc. Attacking and counterattacking are two different things i believe and we clearly see he does the latter.

- Neji can hit 32 times simultaneously in an instant.

-And that's why I listed multiple scenarios. :lol

-If you read the Manga you'd realize that this is false. Neji can't hit 32 times simultaneously. Never shown. Never stated. Never hinted at.

Scenario 2

''If Neji dodges said attack Sasuke simply attacks him again until he lands.'' -
This quote is implying Sasuke has notable striking speed which i don't think you've proven. Sasuke needs his footing right to be able to hit again does he not? And what do you gather Neji would be doing in that brief moment?

No, it doesn't, because he doesn't need top tier striking speed to tag Neji. How he tags he Neji has been stated multiple times and you bringing up the same scan of Gai over and over again and him dodging featless daggers won't change that.

And again with this footing thing, which has also been addressed.

''If Neji dodges said attack and then tries to counter attack Sasuke blocks and then it either becomes a brawl or they break from each other and restart the process.'' -
How exactly does one block a counter attack without any notable cqc evasive speed feats? Reacting to Naruto from a distance is not the same as reacting to multiple strikes in close combat where there is no time advantage one would have compared to the time advantage one has from distance attacks.

Evasive feats are used to prove that he will evade, not that he can't block. So if you are arguing that Neji punches faster than Sasuke can physically react you are gonna have to provide the feats.

And if at any point Neji tries to use 64 palms, Sasuke creates distance.-
The 64 palms has a divination range you entirely must escape out of before..creating a little distance means nothing if you're still in it's range. Sasuke knows nothing about it's range and can't see it either.

That almost puts Sasuke above Neji's level completely in hand to hand-
This entirely came out of nowhere man. Weightless and unweighted Lee are fast yes...but as i've said before, movement speed =/= striking speed. And Lee doesn't have a byakugan that can track speed of attacks in cqc. He was not close to Neji's skill in taijutsu.

Lmao what? The circle only shows the enemies in his range. You don't need to escape the range to dodge the technique, you only need to dodge Neji himself when he comes at you to evade the attack. If you are saying being in the circle means he'll still come at you, then that makes no sense since he could come for the opponent regardless of said circle.

Lmao talk about wank if I have ever seen it. The Databook gives Neji a .5 lead over Lee in Taijutsu skill. So saying Neji is nowhere near as skilled as him is just you overrating Neji and nothing more. Neji having faster striking speed proves what exactly? That he's superior to Lee? :lol Also makes no sense as faster striking speed=/=Better in Taijutsu when you are inferior in literally every other area.

-Sasuke can copy the moves of someone almost equal in skill to Neji.
-Sasuke can copy the speed of someone faster than Neji by far.
-Sasuke himself > Neji in reaction speed due to his 3-Tomoe Sharingan.
-Sasuke's physical strength>Neji's physical strength.
-Sasuke can eat more of Neji's hits than Neji can eat of Sasuke's hits.

So please tell me more about how Neji is going to evade all of Sasuke's attacks neg diff and dominate him in this match. :lol Hilarious story indeed tbh.

Entirely disagree. No proof Sasuke's reaction speed is > than Neji's in cqc, SRA Neji is faster than weightless Lee (And faster in striking speed of all forms of Lee up to 2nd gate) and durability is a so-so. Did Naruto actually hit base Sasuke for us to know how durable he is? Because we have SRA Neji moving with a gaping hole in him and using shunshin and destroying Kido with another fatal wound to accompany that gaping hole.

Then I'll wait for a REACTION (Not striking speed, not movement speed) feat that surpasses what Sasuke has done in the Manga. Cause you dismissing evidence with irrelevant counter evidence isn't helping your case here.

-SRA Neji being faster than Weightless Lee is literally based on nothing and irrelevant to REACTION speed. DB disagrees with this. Feats disagree with this. Neji only strikes faster than Lee, he does not and will not ever move faster than any Lee above Base.
-Read Chapter 229. Sasuke took multiple hits from KN0 and was fine afterwards.

If Sharingan predicts it, won't Sasuke have to react to it too? Also can Sharingan really predict a defensive strike (counter attack)?

We have implications a 1 and half sharingan was able to read Haku's speed (

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) but then a more mature 2T sharingan was unable to read Lee's defensive strike (

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) confirmed by Sasuke himself (

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). Is there a reason why an inferior sharingan was able to track and read Haku but was unable to read Lee's defensive strike?

A counter attack is still an attack. The only thing that changes is that Sasuke most likely won't evade.

Lol before you say it, no, it's not because Lee did that in "Defense". Lee's attack was an attack. Sharingan reads movements. If he moved it'll read it, but the reason why Sasuke couldn't read Lee's movement then is simply because Lee was too fast. Lee explained exactly why Sasuke got fodderized when matched against his Taijutsu.

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Even if your eyes can see if your body is too slow you will be hit. It being a counter attack doesn't change the fact it's an attack. Lee initiating with that attack or responding with that attack doesn't change how well Sharingan would read it, that doesn't make any sense.

So Naruto's punch does have shock-waves. Yet most of the arguments brought for Sasuke by some in this thread is that Neji would lose because he needed rotation against the obvious massive aoe shock-wave (that has cutting abilities like we see with Sasuke) Naruto was bringing with him?

What Naruto used against Sasuke and what he did against Neji are completely different, but this is irrelevant regardless.

A light force won't be able to utilize Sasuke's full strength though meaning he'll need more and more light punches to take Neji down. And that is if he even connects.

True, but doesn't change the outcome, only the length of said outcome.

Lee would have at least used the first two because Neji only reacted in shock when he opened the 3rd gate. (

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). 1st gate Lee should logically be fast enough to land these light punches you talk about but since we know he's never won against Neji, its likely said punches that would make Neji stagger and open to heavier punches never connected.

This point has been addressed above.

Then did you ever consider how a faster and stronger unweighted and 1st gate Lee still ended up losing to Neji? Hinata stood up multiple times from his gentle fist strikes. Those strikes are tanked with gates seeing as Lee has his body crippled when the boost wears off.

- Your reasons don't seem logical enough.

This has also been addressed.

Movement speed =/= striking speed. Those back to back attacks aren't cqc no distance attacks as we clearly see Naruto approaching from distances (

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)-(

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).

Yes, from short distances and from a person far faster than Neji himself. So it's a feat that can be used here, it just doesn't warrant Sasuke evading all of Neji's strikes.

Are you joking though because we clearly see Neji's hands and finger positions with Kido also saying i can't channel my chakra as he loses his v2 form. (

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) If you aren't joking, then you're telling me there's another hyuga technique used to shut off chakra entirely that i honestly don't know about. So could you tell me the technique Neji used there?

64 palms isn't needed to shut down Tenketsu. Jabs are all he needs and there is literally zero evidence that he used 64 palms in an instant when we've already seen how fast he uses 64 palms, and it's not an instant.

Tbh i'm very bad with visually measuring distances by numbers (eg 50m and so on) But according to the manga, the same location where Kido was unleashing daggers at Neji was the same place Kido was staying to fire those final arrows (

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).

That would mean the daggers traveled the entire distance we see in the top panel

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.

Now you claim the daggers have no speed feat but it seems very absurd that these daggers that Neji can see when they enter his 50m radius will be coming at such a slow speed and Neji's only option will be to dodge them 1 by 1. That makes absolutely no sense.

For one, if they are moving as slow as you are trying to claim, they'll lose their Kinetic energy and begin falling off at some point before they actually reach Neji. And then we actually have them coming from over 50m out almost at the same speed as Neji can cut the spider webs that restrain him from using Kaiten (

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)?

Daggers traveling 50m doesn't make them extraordinarily fast. That is the entire point. Speed isn't measured by distance traveled. :lol

-Saying they traveled 50m doesn't make them super fast.
-If you can't show that they are super fast then why are using them as a feat to warrant Neji dodging all of Sasuke's attacks neg diff when Sasuke has already landed multiple hits on someone far faster than Neji himself?

Lmao you should stick with the blocking and parrying arguments, because they make way more sense than this.

I also didn't realize this before ..(

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). Neji still had to destroy that spider web that has the ability to restrain his movements before dodging the 3 layered dagger attack coming at him from every possible angle yet he still dodged those daggers low diff.

I'm really not seeing what you are claiming with your attempt to downplay this feat man and I hope you can shed light on this better. Like what speed do you think those daggers have because they are obviously launched from something. And launched things like arrows for example have speed.

Lol no shit they have speed my man. The question isn't whether or not they have speed, the question is are they so fast that Neji dodging them warrants him dodging Sasuke's attacks neg diff? And the answer is no as there is no feat that proves they are that fast to begin with.

@bold who is that someone that can pummel faster than Neji? Sasuke or Naruto? Proof please?

Lmao read that again. I said Sasuke has already landed multiple hits on someone far faster than Neji. KN0>>Neji in every kind of speed (especially movement speed) except striking speed. So drop this nonsense argument of Neji dodging all attacks "neg diff" unless you are ready to prove that Neji>>>>KN0 in speed.

Timing something right does not equate to having speed faster than what you're timing against. I can time a jump out of the range of a car that's trying to hit me. But i can't outrun a car.

Which isn't relevant to anything I'm saying here because THAT is not a Taijutsu battle where better timing and faster speed will yield the same result. Who even stated that better timing=better speed?

- To be fair though, DB1 still places Lee stronger than VoTE Sasuke in stats pertaining to taijutsu. He's faster, has better Taijutsu skills and has the same strength. Though i'm pretty sure Sharingan would raise Taijutsu stats to be on Lee's level..or possibly higher?
Prelims Neji never lost against that Lee and though you would like to add Gentle fist, we've seen Hinata was durable enough to get back up multiple times after getting struck and Lee is more durable than her.

Sasuke copied Weightless Lee's Taijutsu and speed and he has 3-Tomoe Sharingan on top of it so no, he is far superior during the duration of him using Lee's Taijutsu style, DB scores don't take that into account so they don't matter.

- Then how would Gai know 1st and 2nd gates won't be enough to defeat Neji?

I can use this same argument and say "how would Gai know that 5G can beat Neji if they never fought?" Because Gai can simply gauge their powers without seeing them fight each other. Not to mention this is irrelevant to the point I'm making.

- I know...it implies Lee never tagged Neji as it's that simple.

No, their sparring matches imply that Lee can't beat Neji. Nothing more. Anything more detailed than that is just another one of your baseless assumptions.

- SRA Neji is faster than weightless Lee.

Based on literally nothing. Standard Lee is the DB Lee and he is already equal in speed with SRA Neji, Weightless is easily faster than him.

- It's as easy as Lee tagging him with light punches leaving him staggered and connecting with heavier punches. As far as we know, that never happened.

Which doesn't equal a defeat. Lee hitting Neji with a heavy strike=/=Lee defeating Neji. Not sure how many times I'll have to repeat that before you understand it. What you should do now is probably stop citing off panel events with literally no context provided for them since it doesn't do your argument any good.

- So after Gai starts training him, Lee never challenged Neji again? That goes against his character. (

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Nope. It means that the only panels you have of Neji ever neg diffing Lee is before Gai trained him. Meaning you shouldn't be over here claiming that Neji was neg diffing Weightless and Gated Lee when there is literally nothing in the Manga supporting the claim that said events took place.

 

[neosmith500]

Based on literally nothing. Standard Lee is the DB Lee and he is already equal in speed with SRA Neji, Weightless is easily faster than him.

Why exactly wouldn't kishi use the DB to take into account Lee's real speed and not his weighted speed which is restriction? the weights are tools right? so im not sure why they would be included in a DB stat to gauge his base movement speed since technically the weights isn't exactly base since its a tool imo..

If thats the case then Neji should be near Lees stat in the first DB with a 3.5 at least , but since its a 3 that would make him a tier lower than weighted Lee's speed based on that , but i hardly see this as the case since Neji needed to be above weighted Lees speed and somewhere between and under weightless in order to be a comfortable match . Also Sasuke's first DB Stat where he had a 3 , is that from the Chunin exams finals while his 3.5 in the second took into account VOTE which is basically after he gained Lee's natural speed? then Neji having a 3 could mean that he was above Sasuke's speed in the first and was somewhere on his way to Weightless speed.


Sasuke went from 3 to 3.5 while Neji went from 3 to 4 since Sasuke was in a coma for some time while the others trained and advanced. DB stats are iffy to gauge so i could be completely wrong but we know people can have the same stat in speed with one being much faster than the other , like Neji being a fair bit faster than ZA Sasuke with both having a 3 which leads be to think weighted Lees speed would be a 3 just the same but being a slower 3 than Neji but faster than Sasuke as in canon while weightless gets a 4 which sets him apart from DB1 Neji and Sasuke with Sasuke being a whole tier slower even tho he has a 3.

 

[KidGamer65]

Why exactly wouldn't kishi use the DB to take into account Lee's real speed and not his weighted speed which is restriction? the weights are tools right? so im not sure why they would be included in a DB stat to gauge his base movement speed since technically the weights isn't exactly base since its a tool imo..

If thats the case then Neji should be near Lees stat in the first DB with a 3.5 at least , making him close to weighted Lee's speed based on that , but i hardly see this as the case since Neji needed to be above weighted Lees speed and somewhere between weightless in order to be a comfortable match for weightless Lee and 2nd Gated. Also Sasuke's first DB Stat where he had a 3 is that from the Chunin exams finals while his 3.5 in the second took into account VOTE? DB stats are iffy to gauge .

Ok, you have a point here.

DB 1 Neji has a 3.5 in speed. DB 2 Neji has a 4. Lee has a 4 for DB 1 and 2. so Weightless Lee and SRA Neji are on the same general tier of speed while Lee is superior to DB 1 Neji.

His 3 is for the beginning of the Manga up until chapter 108, and that's before Sasuke showed the results of his training. So the 3.5 he got is from the time he fought Gaara to the end of Part 1. Everything before that is the 3.

Sasuke went from 3 to 3.5 while Neji went from 3 to 4 since Sasuke was in a coma for some time while the others trained and advanced. DB stats are iffy to gauge so i could be completely wrong but we know people can have the same stat in speed with one being much faster than the other , like Neji being a fair bit faster than ZA Sasuke with both having a 3 which leads be to think weighted Lees speed would be a 3 just the same but being a slower 3 than Neji but faster than Sasuke as in canon while weightless gets a 4 which sets him apart from DB1 Neji and Sasuke with Sasuke being a whole tier slower even tho he has a 3.

Yeah. Stats just represent tiers, and people on the same tier don't need to be equal.

 

[neosmith500]

Ok, you have a point here.

DB 1 Neji has a 3.5 in speed. DB 2 Neji has a 4. Lee has a 4 for DB 1 and 2. so Weightless Lee and SRA Neji are on the same general tier of speed while Lee is superior to DB 1 Neji.

His 3 is for the beginning of the Manga up until chapter 108, and that's before Sasuke showed the results of his training. So the 3.5 he got is from the time he fought Gaara to the end of Part 1. Everything before that is the 3.



Yeah. Stats just represent tiers, and people on the same tier don't need to be equal.

Neji's DB1 is a 3 actually , this leads me to think that after Sasuke's training with Kakashi it became a 3.5 , with Neji likely likely having a slightly higher 3 at the time or a lower tier 3.5 than Sasuke after the 1 month gap since i think his 3 in DB1 was him on the edge of getting a 3.5 by basically being a higher tier 3 while Sasuke was a low tier 3 in DB1 and weighted Lee being a mid tier 3 with weightless Lee being a 4 and Sasuke after speed training became a higher tier 3.5 in the same tier as weightless Lee , then because of his coma he remained at that tier in speed but likely getting a tad bit faster after the CM2 awakening ritual but not enough to warrant a 4 yet until later.

Its the same with SRA Lee stayed the same tier due to his injuries so its likely he's a tad bit slower than his 4 back in the CE if not the exact same margin while Neji became faster than Sasuke was in the CE and is likely faster than Base Sasuke in VOTE due to Sasuke not getting a chance to build his speed while Neji jumped a whole tier.

 

[KidGamer65]

Neji's DB1 is a 3 actually , this leads me to think that after Sasuke's training with Kakashi it became a 3.5 , with Neji likely also having a 3.5 after the 1 month gap since i think his 3 in DB1 was him on the edge of getting a 3.5 by basically being a higher tier 3 while Sasuke was a lower tier 3 in DB1 and weighted Lee being a mid tier 3 while Natural Lee is a 4 and Sasuke after speed training became a higher tier 3.5. hen because of his coma he remained at that tier in speed but likely getting a bit faster after doing the CM2 awakening ritual but not enough to warrant a 4 yet until later.

-Sasuke became 3.5 after his training with Kakashi, yes.
-Databook 1 is from Ch. 1 to Ch. 108. Naruto vs. Neji takes place from Ch. 99-104 or 105. So Neji's speed is 3 by the time he fights Naruto after the one month training gap.
-Natural Lee is 4, true.
-Sasuke's 3.5 accounts for all boosts to his base abilities as DB 2 covers everything from 109 to the end of Part 1, so yeah true here.

Agreed that Weighted Lee is a mid tier 3, Neji is a high tiered 3 and Sasuke is a low tiered 3 though.

 

[neosmith500]

-Sasuke became 3.5 after his training with Kakashi, yes.
-Databook 1 is from Ch. 1 to Ch. 108. Naruto vs. Neji takes place from Ch. 99-104 or 105. So Neji's speed is 3 by the time he fights Naruto after the one month training gap.
-Natural Lee is 4, true.
-Sasuke's 3.5 accounts for all boosts to his base abilities as DB 2 covers everything from 109 to the end of Part 1, so yeah true here.

Agreed that Weighted Lee is a mid tier 3, Neji is a high tiered 3 and Sasuke is a low tiered 3 though.

Yea it makes sense and i edited Neji having a slighter higher 3 by the time of his fight with Naruto after thinking about it lol

-So SRA Neji is faster than CE Sasuke's speed which makes him a bit faster than VOTE but in the same tier with maybe the exact difference between CE Lee and CE2 Sasuke which isn't really noticeable and makes sense imo.

This should mean that SRA Neji should be capable of avoiding Gaara's Auto Sand like CE Sasuke and lee did right?

-Do u think DB1 Neji from his fight with Naruto would be capable of avoiding the Auto Sand seeing that he's a higher 3 than weighted lee which is likely the same difference between weighted Lee's 3 and Sasuke's 3 before training under kakashi which was noticeable , then add shunshin into the mix he should be capable of going in for a critical blitz right?


-Also lol do u think Lee used shunshin in these instances?

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-I know Shunshin is classified as ninjutsu but literally doesn't make sense that Lee cant simply do wat Sasuke did here.

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Also Based on the stats i think i'd put CE KN0 Naruto as a mid tier 4 , SRA Neji low tier 4 , SRA Kiba same as Neji , VOTE CM1 Sasuke would be a mid 4 , VOTE KN0 Naruto low tier 4.5 , Base Kimimaro mid tier 4.5 , Butterfly Choji high tier 3 and finally CE 5th Gated Lee being a mid tier 5.

 

[KidGamer65]

Yea it makes sense and i edited Neji having a slighter higher 3 by the time of his fight with Naruto after thinking about it lol

-So SRA Neji is faster than CE Sasuke's speed which makes him a bit faster than VOTE but in the same tier with maybe the exact difference between CE Lee and CE2 Sasuke which isn't really noticeable and makes sense imo.

This should mean that SRA Neji should be capable of avoiding Gaara's Auto Sand like CE Sasuke and lee did right?

-Do u think DB1 Neji from his fight with Naruto would be capable of avoiding the Auto Sand seeing that he's a higher 3 than weighted lee which is likely the same difference between weighted Lee's 3 and Sasuke's 3 before training under kakashi which was noticeable , then add shunshin into the mix he should be capable of going in for a critical blitz right?


-Also lol do u think Lee used shunshin in these instances?

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-I know Shunshin is classified as ninjutsu but literally doesn't make sense that Lee cant simply do wat Sasuke did here.

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Also Based on the stats i think i'd put CE KN0 Naruto as a mid tier 4 , SRA Neji low tier 4 , SRA Kiba same as Neji , VOTE CM1 Sasuke would be a mid 4 , VOTE KN0 Naruto low tier 4.5 , Base Kimimaro mid tier 4.5 , Butterfly Choji high tier 3 and finally CE 5th Gated Lee being a mid tier 5.

SRA Neji is comfortably faster than Base Sasuke even at VoTe, in terms of movement speed anyway, but no, that doesn't necessarily mean that SRA Neji can outspeed Gaara's Sand because while Neji and Lee both have 4s, that's just a broad tiering and we have no idea if Neji is close enough to Weightless Lee to pull off what he and Sasuke (who copied his speed) did.

-With a Shunshin evading the sand should be simple, but the main feat that Lee pulled off was outspeeding it entirely, not just evading it. Neji can evade the sand but he doesn't have the feats or the stats to outspeed it like Lee did.

Yeah, Lee probably knows how to use Shunshin. Gai said that Lee has ALMOST no skill with Nin/Gen IIRC, not that he has no skill at all. So D Rank Shunshin probably isn't out of his reach. So yes, I think he used Shunshin.

And I can agree with pretty much all those rankings.

 

[neosmith500]

SRA Neji is comfortably faster than Base Sasuke even at VoTe, in terms of movement speed anyway, but no, that doesn't necessarily mean that SRA Neji can outspeed Gaara's Sand because while Neji and Lee both have 4s, that's just a broad tiering and we have no idea if Neji is close enough to Weightless Lee to pull off what he and Sasuke (who copied his speed) did.
.

I see ur point , i based this off of weighted Lee's statement to Sasuke about speed being needed in order to deal with him and the fact that Lee characterized dodging speed or any physical reaction speed with overall body movement speed.

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Seeing as Neji should be a far distance apart from that Sasuke and beyond that of Weighted Lee himself since we kno based on portrayal that Neji would be capable of brushing aside weighted Lee and would likely be able to casually react and dodge Unweighted Lee's speed based on Kishi's portrayal leads me to think that his Body , Dodging and physical reaction speeds should be somewhere above CE2 Sasuke since Gai/Kishi gauged that Neji would be able to tag 5G Lee w/o Ura Renge meaning that if either CE2 Sasuke or Unweighted Lee used super speed to try and blitz him from behind or use speed to try and outpace him in Taijutsu , Neji would be easily able to dodge them which should put his speed somewhere around them both.

-Could it mean that Neji's body movement speed as in his ability to bob and weave attacks is much faster than his footspeed , unlike in Lee and Sasuke's case where their Footspeed is likely superior to the speed at which they can weave around physical attacks making Neji vastly superior in that aspect but inferior in Footspeed? This connect to Gai's statement about Lee needing 5G with Combo in order to beat Neji's fast physical reaction speed which should be much superior to Unweighted Lee and Sasuke?

 

[Jinrou]

Speed and the fact that Kakashi was in a disadvantageous position.

Which doesn't prove your point so I'm not sure why you bothered typing this up. The point you are trying to prove isn't that Zabuza>Naruto in speed because that's obvious, it's that Kakashi couldn't dodge solely because of the speed. Though that's a point you can't prove and that's why you are now repeating the same thing over and over again while ignoring what is clearly in front of you.

Zabuza managed to land a kick on Kakashi after forcing him into a disadvantageous position after surprising him from behind. In what world is that proof that if he just tried to head on kick Kakashi with no kind of trick Kakashi wouldn't react? :lol

No, it doesn't. Stop using this terrible logic. It proves that despite Kakashi having to duck for Naruto's first attack, he's still fast enough to evade Naruto's follow up attack because Kakashi>>>>Naruto in speed, so whatever disadvantage Kakashi puts himself at is negated by the fact that Kakashi is tiers above him in speed. Kakashi>=Zabuza in speed, thus if Zabuza puts him in a disadvantage like that there's no guarantee he evades.

What makes your Naruto point make even less sense is that Zabuza attacked Kakashi from the back. Naruto came at him from the side.

Actually you just made it clear to me what i was trying to push across with respect to the vs at hand. Zabuza's kick connected because of its speed and Kakashi being in a disadvantageous position. Even though Kakashi is >= same speed as Zabuza, he couldn't evade Zabuza's striking speed and VoTE Sasuke is slower than SRA Neji can strike.

You really need to stop with this. Neji does not, can not, and will not ever make strikes anywhere fast enough to warrant you using the term "instant". Neji's strikes are all consecutive, meaning one after another, they are just fast. And the only way he'd have to dodge anywhere close to 32 strikes if is he sat there and let Neji keep attacking after he began eight trigrams, and I've noted multiple ways he dodges, blocks or parries to escape, the easiest way being creating some distance since then he wouldn't need to evade 32 strikes, as long as he has the speed to create distance and escape from a single strike he'd dodge all 32 as all 32 strikes have the same reach.

My point is from the 8 trigrams we see, the fastest instant consecutive strikes we see Neji reach is 32. Neji doesn't need to use 8 trigrams to perform just those 32 instant strikes i'm talking about.

Panel by panel

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Panel 1 - 2 consecutive strikes in a panel to make it 4 strikes overall
Panel 2 - 4 consecutive strikes in a panel to make it 8 strikes overall
Panel 3 - 8 consecutive strikes in a panel to make it 16 strikes overall
Panel 4 - 16 consecutive strikes in a panel to make it 32 strikes overall

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Panel 1- 32 consecutive strikes in a panel to make it 64 strikes overall.

In terms of difficulty it goes Dodging>Parrying>Blocking and that's because Dodging requires more effort than parrying as you are moving more of your body, and parrying requires more effort because you move more of your body to simply make a defensive stance, which would be blocking. So no, what you are saying doesn't make sense, especially since you've yet to actually explain why parrying is a more difficulty

@bold: lmao wtf? This guy is actually asking for a scan of Sasuke performing a parry? Let's use common sense first. A parry is knocking away the enemy attack with an attack of your own. Nothing more, nothing less. If Sasuke can attack, if Sasuke has the speed to react and the speed to dodge the only way he wouldn't be fast enough to parry an enemy attack is if:

-He was retarded.
-He chose not to.
-He wasn't strong enough.

And none of those things apply here.

I disagree. Parrying > Dodging > Blocking. Dodging is moving your body away while parrying requires you to move your body away from the attack and deflect your opponents attack at the very same time. If you mis-time any of those two, you get clobbered. There's no way to prove this to you but i have attended Jujitsu training classes before. Many of us could dodge and block effectively but few of us could actually perform a perfect parry.

So yes are there scans of Sasuke performing a parry? Because Neji never outright blocked an attack that i'm aware of. And he didn't need to since he was an expert at deflecting and parrying strikes.

That's obviously not a missed attack. That's a parried attack. Obviously if Sasuke got hit in the same manner it'd be GG, but all your instances of Neji embarrassing people like that in CQC are examples where he was far superior to his opponent in almost every physical stat bar strength. Says literally nothing about what he'll do to someone near his level in physical ability who can copy the speed of someone faster than him w/ Sharingan on top of that.

Laws of motion are the same for everyone. If Sasuke gets parried, he becomes open for an attack. And Neji can parry his attacks.

How is Sasuke near Neji's physical abilities? Neji is faster and Sasuke can't use unweighted Lee's speed for very long. In terms of Taijutsu skill, the DB doesn't include the advantage Neji gets from Byakugan so that 4.5 should be higher should it not? Sasuke's taijutsu at this point is 2.5

Lmao I've already addressed this multiple times. Naruto was going at full speed, I already stated Sasuke doesn't need to do anything similar.

My entire point was them getting unbalanced as that's how motion works. Light punches do nothing to Neji who was moving and stayed alive long enough to be healed despite having 2 gaping holes in him.

Lol. Your examples don't show dodges, they show parries. So the bolded statement is left backed by nothing. The only way you stagger when you miss an attack is if you have bad footing and put too much movement into your attack. That's a fact. Sasuke doesn't need to do either so how is he going to stagger?

You dodge when you parry and the Sasuke and Naruto scan clearly shows a dodge.

That's not proof Neji w/ hand to hand can neg diff Lee outside of the 5th Gate it's proof that Neji w/ Gentle Fist can defeat Lee up until the 5th Gate. All this neg diffing business and dodging all attacks stuff you keep talking about is based on literally nothing.

When will you start adding byakugan as one of the reasons Neji would have been winning against Lee?

Yes, if Neji uses the same lethality of attack on Lee as he did on Hinata, which wouldn't make sense as 5G Lee>>>Hinata.

I wasn't talking about 5G Lee. I was talking about 1G and 2G Lee. Those gates make Lee tank pain from Neji's gentle fist seeing as Hinata was able to standup multiple times from them.

I'm not going to repeat myself on this point. Gai has made it clear why Lee needed Ura Renge and that is to avoid getting touched. You bringing up hypotheticals doesn't matter when Gai himself stated that Lee would need to avoid getting touched in order to defeat Neji.


Words don't have subjective meanings. "It is a super high speed Taijutsu that can't even be touched" "This is the key to beating Neji". Unless Gai threw that in the for shits and giggles you don't have an argument here. He mentioned "can't even be touched" because that's what makes Ura Renge capable of defeating Neji. Not sure why you are arguing against what the Manga has clearly stated.

Gai says 'The answer to defeating Neji is this high speed combo' High speed combo refers to extremely fast strikes (proven in DB as 64 palms is referred to as a high speed combo) so i see it as saying Lee can pummel Neji faster than Neji can touch him. Why am i wrong with this?

High speed combos in the manga include 64 palms and Gai's peacock thing. We clearly see they can't be touched and the reason they can't be touched is their hits are so fast the opponent has zero time to react not to talk of touching.

That doesn't prove that restricted Neji would neg diff Unweighted Lee or 1G Lee which is what I wanted proof for since you made that claim, it's proof that he'd win with all his abilities.

Gentle fist is as a result of Byakugan which you still don't include as one of the reasons Neji would continuously win against Lee and we know isn't included in Neji's DB taijutsu stat. Gated Lee tanks pain from Gentle fist like Hinata sort of did. So why isn't 1G Lee enough to win against Neji?

You say Neji has superior reaction speed, then you use striking speed as evidence of reaction speed when reaction speed literally has jack to do with striking speed. :lol Reacting to KN1 is a better feat than Neji has in this Manga. Meaning Sasuke>Neji in reaction speed. Bold and the rest of this part of your post have nothing to do with the point that Sasuke>Neji in reaction speed.

Try to understand clearly what i'm saying.

Movement speed =/= striking speed which ultimately means;
Reaction to movement speed =/= Reaction to striking speed.

Sasuke reacted to Naruto coming from a distance with a single linear punch. In cqc, there is no such distance. So in cqc, reaction to striking speed is what matters more in comparison with reaction to movement speed.

-And that's why I listed multiple scenarios. :lol

-If you read the Manga you'd realize that this is false. Neji can't hit 32 times simultaneously. Never shown. Never stated. Never hinted at.

See above where Neji completes 32 strikes in a single panel on Kido.

Scenario 2
No, it doesn't, because he doesn't need top tier striking speed to tag Neji. How he tags he Neji has been stated multiple times and you bringing up the same scan of Gai over and over again and him dodging featless daggers won't change that.

And again with this footing thing, which has also been addressed.

Those daggers aren't featless. You just don't understand that scenario yet.

Evasive feats are used to prove that he will evade, not that he can't block. So if you are arguing that Neji punches faster than Sasuke can physically react you are gonna have to provide the feats.

See above.

Lmao what? The circle only shows the enemies in his range. You don't need to escape the range to dodge the technique, you only need to dodge Neji himself when he comes at you to evade the attack. If you are saying being in the circle means he'll still come at you, then that makes no sense since he could come for the opponent regardless of said circle.

Databook

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Eight Trigrams Sixty-Four Palms (Hakke Rokujuuyon Shou)

Kekkei Genkai, Taijutsu, Offensive, Close-range

User: Hyuuga Neji

This is originally a taijutsu that is passed down only in the Hyuuga Main House!! However, being a branch house member, Neji uses his own intuition and natural talents to master the secrets of this Taijutsu!!

Using the Byakugan’s 360 degrees vision and mapping this vision onto a Divination Hexagram Formation. Then the user will launch a series of high speed combo onto opponent that lies within this formation. The attacks are aimed at 64 of the opponent’s chakra points, thus closing these chakra points and stopping the chakra flow of the opponent. The victim will not even have the strength to stand up. Therefore this is a deadly taijutsu that is suitable to be pass down within the Hyuuga line.

Lmao talk about wank if I have ever seen it. The Databook gives Neji a .5 lead over Lee in Taijutsu skill. So saying Neji is nowhere near as skilled as him is just you overrating Neji and nothing more. Neji having faster striking speed proves what exactly? That he's superior to Lee? :lol Also makes no sense as faster striking speed=/=Better in Taijutsu when you are inferior in literally every other area.

You're mixing the DB stats. We're talking about DB1 Neji and Lee and both had the same taijutsu stat at 3.5. And you're also forgetting Neji had a superior edge because of the Byakugan and gentle fist strikes. Remove Gentle fist from Neji and he has still has the edge over Lee in Taijutsu with byakugan. Lee was inferior to Neji in taijutsu in part 1.

-Sasuke can copy the moves of someone almost equal in skill to Neji.
-Sasuke can copy the speed of someone faster than Neji by far.
-Sasuke himself > Neji in reaction speed due to his 3-Tomoe Sharingan.
-Sasuke's physical strength>Neji's physical strength.
-Sasuke can eat more of Neji's hits than Neji can eat of Sasuke's hits.

So please tell me more about how Neji is going to evade all of Sasuke's attacks neg diff and dominate him in this match. :lol Hilarious story indeed tbh.

- That someone needed to go 5G to defeat Part 1 Neji. Part 1 Lee is not close to equal in taijutsu stats with SRA Neji.
- SRA Neji has the same speed as weighted Lee (I kept mentioning weightless in the previous post.. my bad). Sasuke can't keep unweighted Lee's speed up for long.
- Lee's strength is > Neji's strength
- Depends on if Sasuke can connect with the needed number of hits in the first place.

@bold you say all of Sasuke's attacks when Sasuke's fastest strike in base is a single linear punch and i'm not sure how you think Neji won't parry or dodge that.

Then I'll wait for a REACTION (Not striking speed, not movement speed) feat that surpasses what Sasuke has done in the Manga. Cause you dismissing evidence with irrelevant counter evidence isn't helping your case here.

Sasuke reacted to Naruto's movement speed with a linear punch. That is not a great reaction to striking speed feat compared to Neji having to point blank dodge one by one multiple unevenly arranged daggers coming from all angles.

-SRA Neji being faster than Weightless Lee is literally based on nothing and irrelevant to REACTION speed. DB disagrees with this. Feats disagree with this. Neji only strikes faster than Lee, he does not and will not ever move faster than any Lee above Base.
-Read Chapter 229. Sasuke took multiple hits from KN0 and was fine afterwards.

- Yeah my bad..i meant to say weighted lol. Apologies

- Interesting. I did read chapter 229. But doesn't it mean Base Sasuke's strength >> that version of Naruto with red eyes' strength?

A counter attack is still an attack. The only thing that changes is that Sasuke most likely won't evade.

Lol before you say it, no, it's not because Lee did that in "Defense". Lee's attack was an attack. Sharingan reads movements. If he moved it'll read it, but the reason why Sasuke couldn't read Lee's movement then is simply because Lee was too fast. Lee explained exactly why Sasuke got fodderized when matched against his Taijutsu.

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Even if your eyes can see if your body is too slow you will be hit. It being a counter attack doesn't change the fact it's an attack. Lee initiating with that attack or responding with that attack doesn't change how well Sharingan would read it, that doesn't make any sense.

- So can Sharingan read counter attacks?

- No. It wasn't an attack. It was a defensive strike (counter attack) to Sasuke rushing in to punch him. (

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)-(

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). Then we have an inferior sharingan tracking Haku who has the same stat in speed with Lee. So is there a reason why it didn't read that counter attack?

- Lee doesn't have a sharingan, had never seen a sharingan until then and had never fought against a sharingan. He then clearly says ''Even if your eyes can read it''...That right there should lead us to ask if the Sharingan actually read it. Luckily enough the wielder of said sharingan answered the question for us. (

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). Middle panel.

What Naruto used against Sasuke and what he did against Neji are completely different, but this is irrelevant regardless.

Great. So can you stop using Sasuke reacting to Naruto's single strike movement speed as a feat here? Because you can't prove SRA Neji won't have evaded it either.

True, but doesn't change the outcome, only the length of said outcome.

Yes. If Sasuke connects though.

Yes, from short distances and from a person far faster than Neji himself. So it's a feat that can be used here, it just doesn't warrant Sasuke evading all of Neji's strikes.

There is no short distance in a cqc fight. We're talking inches/feet from each other. Neji's striking > Naruto's in cqc.

64 palms isn't needed to shut down Tenketsu. Jabs are all he needs and there is literally zero evidence that he used 64 palms in an instant when we've already seen how fast he uses 64 palms, and it's not an instant.

Kido says he can't channel chakra though. And by portrayal, 64 of your tenketsu needs to be hit before you can't use chakra anymore. (

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)-(

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). So if you're saying he didn't use 64 palms, then he used 64 jabs?

Daggers traveling 50m doesn't make them extraordinarily fast. That is the entire point. Speed isn't measured by distance traveled. :lol

Speed = Distance / time. Distance is part of the formula to get speed and we also see those daggers are fast enough to limit Neji to the only option of dodging 1 by 1.

-Saying they traveled 50m doesn't make them super fast.
-If you can't show that they are super fast then why are using them as a feat to warrant Neji dodging all of Sasuke's attacks neg diff when Sasuke has already landed multiple hits on someone far faster than Neji himself?

Lmao you should stick with the blocking and parrying arguments, because they make way more sense than this.

Lol no shit they have speed my man. The question isn't whether or not they have speed, the question is are they so fast that Neji dodging them warrants him dodging Sasuke's attacks neg diff? And the answer is no as there is no feat that proves they are that fast to begin with.

Like i said before, Kido launched the daggers at Neji from where he launched those final arrows at Neji. That means those daggers traveled the whole distance we see in the top panel

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.

We clearly see there was no lag time between Kido launching the trap and the daggers appearing very close to Neji (ahead of the more buoyant spiders i should add)

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. Isn't this giving the daggers a speed feat similar to that final arrow that Kido launched?

@bold is definitely surprising though. Even if those daggers didn't have a speed feat, we know for a fact they are fast enough to breach the human skin and lodge there. If Kido threw a dagger with his hand, that would never happen from over 50m out.

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Neji saw the daggers in the above scan late and was still hampered by a falling spider web that can hamper his movements. Those daggers are not evenly spread in terms of proximity to each other and we have 3 layers of this unevenly spread daggers. Neji doesn't get tagged except for the ones that enter his blindspot and yet you assume Sasuke who doesn't have any notable striking speed would touch Neji when he can not replicate strikes in form of the volume/number of daggers that attacked Neji there??

Lmao read that again. I said Sasuke has already landed multiple hits on someone far faster than Neji. KN0>>Neji in every kind of speed (especially movement speed) except striking speed. So drop this nonsense argument of Neji dodging all attacks "neg diff" unless you are ready to prove that Neji>>>>KN0 in speed.

You say multiple hits like it was done in quick intervals when we know he used full strength to hit Naruto away and Naruto kept coming back at him from distances.

Which isn't relevant to anything I'm saying here because THAT is not a Taijutsu battle where better timing and faster speed will yield the same result. Who even stated that better timing=better speed?

You said Sasuke was fast enough to hit Naruto and i wanted to make it clear he was landing hits because he had the timing right.

Sasuke copied Weightless Lee's Taijutsu and speed and he has 3-Tomoe Sharingan on top of it so no, he is far superior during the duration of him using Lee's Taijutsu style, DB scores don't take that into account so they don't matter.

A speed he can't keep up for long and taijutsu that isn't exactly perfect as i believe you're referring to Sasuke's Lion combo? What do you gather 3T would raise Sasuke's taijutsu stat to? Because he had a 2.5 and Lee had a 3.5 in DB1. Sasuke at this point is only superior to DB1 Lee in reactions due to 3T right? Sasuke might be superior..but you saying far superior doesn't add up.

I can use this same argument and say "how would Gai know that 5G can beat Neji if they never fought?" Because Gai can simply gauge their powers without seeing them fight each other. Not to mention this is irrelevant to the point I'm making.

And i would tell you because in the manga high speed combo's have never been touched?

No, their sparring matches imply that Lee can't beat Neji. Nothing more. Anything more detailed than that is just another one of your baseless assumptions.

True it's baseless...but you keep saying light punches would make Neji stagger and open to heavier punches. And i'm telling you a faster and stronger Lee in gates could have done that too. But we know he never beat Neji for a fact. Not from Gai but from Lee himself. Lee was quick to try and use

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. And we know that requires the

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. So i don't see how Lee won't have tried to use the 1st and 2nd gates to try and defeat Neji.

Based on literally nothing. Standard Lee is the DB Lee and he is already equal in speed with SRA Neji, Weightless is easily faster than him.

Yh my bad.

Which doesn't equal a defeat. Lee hitting Neji with a heavy strike=/=Lee defeating Neji. Not sure how many times I'll have to repeat that before you understand it. What you should do now is probably stop citing off panel events with literally no context provided for them since it doesn't do your argument any good.

But Sasuke hitting Neji with a heavy strike = Sasuke defeating Neji?

Nope. It means that the only panels you have of Neji ever neg diffing Lee is before Gai trained him. Meaning you shouldn't be over here claiming that Neji was neg diffing Weightless and Gated Lee when there is literally nothing in the Manga supporting the claim that said events took place.

So because i can't bring scans, it proves Lee never challenged Neji to a fight after Gai started training him when we have Lee looking to test his ability against strong opponents?

Could u elaborate on the bold or do u mean to replace the word skill with ability?? both are Geniuses in Taijutsu with contrasting styles , saying Lee isn't even close isn't based on anything at all in this manga , at best u could say both were portrayed on par , but the bold literally makes no sense tbh considering how kishi portrayed both.

How were they portrayed on par though when we have Lee saying (

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) about Neji?
Kakashi and Gai? Now that's an on par comparison but Neji and Lee? Not so much.

 

[KidGamer65]

I see ur point , i based this off of weighted Lee's statement to Sasuke about speed being needed in order to deal with him and the fact that Lee characterized dodging speed or any physical reaction speed with overall body movement speed.

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Seeing as Neji should be a far distance apart from that Sasuke and beyond that of Weighted Lee himself since we kno based on portrayal that Neji would be capable of brushing aside weighted Lee and would likely be able to casually react and dodge Unweighted Lee's speed based on Kishi's portrayal leads me to think that his Body , Dodging and physical reaction speeds should be somewhere above CE2 Sasuke since Gai/Kishi gauged that Neji would be able to tag 5G Lee w/o Ura Renge meaning that if either CE2 Sasuke or Unweighted Lee used super speed to try and blitz him from behind or use speed to try and outpace him in Taijutsu , Neji would be easily able to dodge them which should put his speed somewhere around them both.

-Could it mean that Neji's body movement speed as in his ability to bob and weave attacks is much faster than his footspeed , unlike in Lee and Sasuke's case where their Footspeed is likely superior to the speed at which they can weave around physical attacks making Neji vastly superior in that aspect but inferior in Footspeed? This connect to Gai's statement about Lee needing 5G with Combo in order to beat Neji's fast physical reaction speed which should be much superior to Unweighted Lee and Sasuke?

Neji being able to react to and dodge Weighted Lee comfortably says nothing about his actual movement speed in terms of outspeeding Sand. And the bold is based on nothing. No portrayal hints that. Portrayal simply puts Neji far above Unweighted Lee in overall power. Being able to react comfortably to him and maybe dodge some attacks doesn't mean he can casually dodge his attacks.

-Agreed that Neji's reaction speed>CE2 Sasuke. But that's just reaction speed. We're talking about movement speed here. Being able to dodge someone faster than you doesn't put on their level in speed. Sasuke can casually dodge KN0 and he can dodge KN1 yet he's clearly nowhere near as fast as either of them.

-All character's ability to bob and weave attacks is faster than footspeed because it's a simpler movement with less effort required. SM Naruto can dodge the 3rd Raikage yet he's not as fast as the Raikage. VoTe Sasuke can casually dodge KN0 yet he's not on his level in speed.

So there's really nothing supporting that Neji can outspeed Gaara's Sand like Lee did.

Actually you just made it clear to me what i was trying to push across with respect to the vs at hand. Zabuza's kick connected because of its speed and Kakashi being in a disadvantageous position. Even though Kakashi is >= same speed as Zabuza, he couldn't evade Zabuza's striking speed and VoTE Sasuke is slower than SRA Neji can strike.

Stop trying to draw a comparison here unless you are going to provide a comparison where both persons of interest are in disadvantageous positions. You don't need to outspeed someone to dodge someone's attacks (see Naruto dodging the Raikage, see Sasuke dodging Naruto) so mentioning that Neji strikes faster than Sasuke's raw movement speed doesn't help you, especially since raw movement speed is irrelevant to dodging.

My point is from the 8 trigrams we see, the fastest instant consecutive strikes we see Neji reach is 32. Neji doesn't need to use 8 trigrams to perform just those 32 instant strikes i'm talking about.

Panel by panel

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Panel 1 - 2 consecutive strikes in a panel to make it 4 strikes overall
Panel 2 - 4 consecutive strikes in a panel to make it 8 strikes overall
Panel 3 - 8 consecutive strikes in a panel to make it 16 strikes overall
Panel 4 - 16 consecutive strikes in a panel to make it 32 strikes overall

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Panel 1- 32 consecutive strikes in a panel to make it 64 strikes overall.

In that case what you just quoted already addressed what will happen if Neji comes at him with 32 strikes. If you are hinting that Neji can strike that fast out of thin air as if it's just another punch to him then you are going to have to prove it.

-His 32 final strikes have the most strength and speed of said technique.
-He needs a strong step forward to initiate the final 32 strikes at that speed. Stated in Wiki shown in the Manga (his stance once he lands the

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)

I hope you don't think Neji does all those foot movements during his 64 palms for fun. :lol They are there because moving his lower body like that means his strikes will be delivered with more speed and power. So if you think he can use 64 palms striking speed in regular CQC just like that you are clearly mistaken and the Manga definitely disagrees. We've already seen how Neji fights in regular hand to hand so I'm not sure how you are arguing this point in the first place. :lol

I disagree. Parrying > Dodging > Blocking. Dodging is moving your body away while parrying requires you to move your body away from the attack and deflect your opponents attack at the very same time. If you mis-time any of those two, you get clobbered. There's no way to prove this to you but i have attended Jujitsu training classes before. Many of us could dodge and block effectively but few of us could actually perform a perfect parry.

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"warding off an attack, especially with a counterattack"

That's a parry. Whatever parry Neji does is irrelevant to this small discussion here as I never said Sasuke will do what Neji does. I already described exactly what Sasuke will do. What Neji does isn't warding off an enemy attack with a counter attack. He dodges and then pushes the attack further along it's course, which is why Hinata was stumbling like she did. What I'm describing obviously requires less skill than what you are describing nor is what you are describing necessary for Sasuke to do here.

So yes are there scans of Sasuke performing a parry? Because Neji never outright blocked an attack that i'm aware of. And he didn't need to since he was an expert at deflecting and parrying strikes.

Read above.

Laws of motion are the same for everyone. If Sasuke gets parried, he becomes open for an attack. And Neji can parry his attacks.

This doesn't answer a thing I said. This is you restating the same thing I asked you to support in the first place.

How is Sasuke near Neji's physical abilities? Neji is faster and Sasuke can't use unweighted Lee's speed for very long. In terms of Taijutsu skill, the DB doesn't include the advantage Neji gets from Byakugan so that 4.5 should be higher should it not? Sasuke's taijutsu at this point is 2.5

He can use it sparingly. He doesn't need to use it long he only needs to use it long enough to gain the upper hand. So during the periods he copies Lee's Taijutsu:

-Their skill difference doesn't matter as he's using the movements of someone almost as skilled as Neji.
-Sasuke's movement and reaction speed are both superior. Movement being almost irrelevant in regular close quarters.
-Sasuke's strength is superior.

So how is Neji parrying all of Hinata's attacks evidence he'll do the same to Sasuke? I could use the same flawed logic and say that because Rock Lee has been shown to parry attacks, he can parry

Byakugan only affects his reaction speed, not his actual skill. In all it changes things but when comparing individual Taijutsu skill stats it doesn't matter.

My entire point was them getting unbalanced as that's how motion works. Light punches do nothing to Neji who was moving and stayed alive long enough to be healed despite having 2 gaping holes in him.

Again, this has been addressed. Their hit alone won't unbalanced them and Neji isn't parrying anything here.

Terrible logic. Neji being able to stay alive with 2 gaping holes in his body doesn't say jack about his durability (resilience and durability are not the same thing) so how in the world did you come to the conclusion that a hit from Sasuke that doesn't have all his strength in it does nothing to him? :lol Nice try, but clearly no dice.

You dodge when you parry and the Sasuke and Naruto scan clearly shows a dodge.

Then say parry, not dodging. :lol

When will you start adding byakugan as one of the reasons Neji would have been winning against Lee?

Lmao what in the world are you talking about? Byakugan is obviously implied as Byakugan is unrestricted here.

I wasn't talking about 5G Lee. I was talking about 1G and 2G Lee. Those gates make Lee tank pain from Neji's gentle fist seeing as Hinata was able to standup multiple times from them.

Then this point is completely irrelevant because Gentle Fist alone isn't why Neji would defeat 1G and 2G Lee, so Lee being able to fight after a single gentle fist hit doesn't matter. He is straight up superior in hand to hand. Making this point is also irrelevant because you made this point as a response to Gai saying Lee needs to avoid being touched to defeat Neji.

What's worse is that you are just repeating the same thing over and over again without addressing what's been said to you. :lol

Gai says 'The answer to defeating Neji is this high speed combo' High speed combo refers to extremely fast strikes (proven in DB as 64 palms is referred to as a high speed combo) so i see it as saying Lee can pummel Neji faster than Neji can touch him. Why am i wrong with this?

Why are you ignoring what has been stated? Selective reading won't help you here. "High speed combo that CANNOT BE TOUCHED". Meaning the goal is NOT TO BE TOUCHED. I can't make this any simpler, and the bold is basically saying what I and the Manga are saying so what is the issue here?

High speed combos in the manga include 64 palms and Gai's peacock thing. We clearly see they can't be touched and the reason they can't be touched is their hits are so fast the opponent has zero time to react not to talk of touching.

Then you are agreeing with me. So why are you arguing?

Gentle fist is as a result of Byakugan which you still don't include as one of the reasons Neji would continuously win against Lee and we know isn't included in Neji's DB taijutsu stat. Gated Lee tanks pain from Gentle fist like Hinata sort of did. So why isn't 1G Lee enough to win against Neji?

The first sentence was addressed, the second sentence was addressed a post and in this post ago.

Try to understand clearly what i'm saying.

Movement speed =/= striking speed which ultimately means;
Reaction to movement speed =/= Reaction to striking speed.

Sasuke reacted to Naruto coming from a distance with a single linear punch. In cqc, there is no such distance. So in cqc, reaction to striking speed is what matters more in comparison with reaction to movement speed.

:lol

No, why don't you stop addressing points that aren't be made and understand what I'm saying. Everything in that paragraph is to prove that Sasuke has better reaction speed than Neji. Whether or not reacting to KN1 from a distance is as good as reacting to him in CQC DOES. NOT. MATTER when comparing reaction speed vs. reaction speed.

See above where Neji completes 32 strikes in a single panel on Kido.

Panel time isn't a measure of real time so how does this help your case? :lol Since when did 32 hits in one panel=32 hits SIMULTANEOUSLY?

Those daggers aren't featless. You just don't understand that scenario yet.

:lol

Databook

Spoiler

Eight Trigrams Sixty-Four Palms (Hakke Rokujuuyon Shou)

Kekkei Genkai, Taijutsu, Offensive, Close-range

User: Hyuuga Neji

This is originally a taijutsu that is passed down only in the Hyuuga Main House!! However, being a branch house member, Neji uses his own intuition and natural talents to master the secrets of this Taijutsu!!

Using the Byakugan’s 360 degrees vision and mapping this vision onto a Divination Hexagram Formation. Then the user will launch a series of high speed combo onto opponent that lies within this formation. The attacks are aimed at 64 of the opponent’s chakra points, thus closing these chakra points and stopping the chakra flow of the opponent. The victim will not even have the strength to stand up. Therefore this is a deadly taijutsu that is suitable to be pass down within the Hyuuga line.

And where does that say that the user NEEDS to escape the circle to escape the technique?

Nowhere. It says enemies inside are TARGETED. Not that all enemies inside will be hit without fail.

You're mixing the DB stats. We're talking about DB1 Neji and Lee and both had the same taijutsu stat at 3.5. And you're also forgetting Neji had a superior edge because of the Byakugan and gentle fist strikes. Remove Gentle fist from Neji and he has still has the edge over Lee in Taijutsu with byakugan. Lee was inferior to Neji in taijutsu in part 1.

You said that Neji's SKILL in Taijutsu was FAR greater than Lee's SKILL.

-Byakugan.
-Gentle Fist.

Irrelevant to pure skill. Those supplement overall Taijutsu ability they don't change Neji's actual skill in said art. I never said that Base Lee was on Neji's level overall in CQC, I said that saying Neji was far more skilled is wrong. I already know that Neji>>>Base Lee in overall Taijutsu ability including Gentle Fist and Byakugan. (former of which is restricted so I'm not sure why you bothered to mention that here)

But I will admit that I got the scores mixed up. My bad there. Neji has a 4.5 while DB 1 Lee, who Neji copied was a 3.5. So the gap in skill is moderately large.

- That someone needed to go 5G to defeat Part 1 Neji. Part 1 Lee is not close to equal in taijutsu stats with SRA Neji.
- SRA Neji has the same speed as weighted Lee (I kept mentioning weightless in the previous post.. my bad). Sasuke can't keep unweighted Lee's speed up for long.
- Lee's strength is > Neji's strength
- Depends on if Sasuke can connect with the needed number of hits in the first place.

@bold you say all of Sasuke's attacks when Sasuke's fastest strike in base is a single linear punch and i'm not sure how you think Neji won't parry or dodge that.

-All that was addressed above.
-This was replied to above as well.
-So is Sasuke's.
-Which he can, explained many times.

Sasuke reacted to Naruto's movement speed with a linear punch. That is not a great reaction to striking speed feat compared to Neji having to point blank dodge one by one multiple unevenly arranged daggers coming from all angles.

Based on what? Their number? Weak evidence. Neji can dodge a bunch of Base Naruto clones. Sasuke can dodge and counter a bunc of Base Naruto clones yet none of them at the time they accomplished those feats could seamlessly dodge KN0, despite it only being one man. (And while I'm on this point, you say Neji will parry all of Sasuke's strikes, which is even harder than dodging all of them according to the method of parrying you say Neji will use here, which only makes your argument weaker) Their speed? Nonexistent evidence since you've yet to actually show these things are tremendously fast. Sasuke reacted to KN0 and KN1 from less than 5m away and dodged them seamlessly both times.

- Yeah my bad..i meant to say weighted lol. Apologies

- Interesting. I did read chapter 229. But doesn't it mean Base Sasuke's strength >> that version of Naruto with red eyes' strength?

Nope. It simply means that KN0 isn't strong enough to seriously injure Sasuke with the amount of strikes he landed on him during their fight.

- So can Sharingan read counter attacks?

- No. It wasn't an attack. It was a defensive strike (counter attack) to Sasuke rushing in to punch him. (

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)-(

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). Then we have an inferior sharingan tracking Haku who has the same stat in speed with Lee. So is there a reason why it didn't read that counter attack?

Lmao come on man. You know that you aren't making sense here. A COUNTER ATTACK IS AN ATTACK. Hence the term counter ATTACK. It being a counter doesn't change the fact it's an ATTACK. You don't have a point here. Same stat in speed is irrelevant because same stat in speed=/=Same speed. Speed stats=/=Characters actual speed when Shunshin (Lee vs. Sasuke) and other Ninjutsu that augment speed (haku) aren't taken into account.

Stop trying to imply that the chronology of an attack changes the fact that it's an attack.

- Lee doesn't have a sharingan, had never seen a sharingan until then and had never fought against a sharingan. He then clearly says ''Even if your eyes can read it''...That right there should lead us to ask if the Sharingan actually read it. Luckily enough the wielder of said sharingan answered the question for us. (

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). Middle panel.

Does that change the fact that Sasuke's body was too slow to react?

Great. So can you stop using Sasuke reacting to Naruto's single strike movement speed as a feat here? Because you can't prove SRA Neji won't have evaded it either.

Lmao I don't need to. He doesn't have a greater feat thus I have no reason to hold him to Sasuke's standard in said department. If you think he has a feat(s) that match up to that then by all means share them with me.

Yes. If Sasuke connects though.

Which he will.

There is no short distance in a cqc fight. We're talking inches/feet from each other. Neji's striking > Naruto's in cqc.

Which I just addressed.

Kido says he can't channel chakra though. And by portrayal, 64 of your tenketsu needs to be hit before you can't use chakra anymore. (

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)-(

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). So if you're saying he didn't use 64 palms, then he used 64 jabs?

Then see what I just said to this point. Citing this feat is irrelevant as we've seen how fast Neji uses 64 palms. Citing an off panel feat when we've seen his capabilities on panel doesn't make your argument legit.

Speed = Distance / time. Distance is part of the formula to get speed and we also see those daggers are fast enough to limit Neji to the only option of dodging 1 by 1.

Distance AND TIME. So saying "they crossed 50m" says nothing about time, thus says nothing about speed. Fast enough to limit Neji to dodging 1 by 1? That literally makes no sense. Neji had to dodge 1 by 1 because he couldn't use Rotation. Him not being able to jump away from the entire area of them is because they covered too much area due to there being multiple daggers.

You say they are fast because they were fast enough to make Neji have to dodge them one by one, even though that does nothing to compare the speed of what Neji dodged to what Sasuke has dodged.

Like i said before, Kido launched the daggers at Neji from where he launched those final arrows at Neji. That means those daggers traveled the whole distance we see in the top panel

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.

Addressed.

We clearly see there was no lag time between Kido launching the trap and the daggers appearing very close to Neji (ahead of the more buoyant spiders i should add)

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. Isn't this giving the daggers a speed feat similar to that final arrow that Kido launched?

Dude. It's a Manga with still images first of all. Second of all Kidomaru firing the trap right after the daggers doesn't make the daggers fast, it says nothing about speed. And lol no. Absolutely not. Neji could not evade any of Kidomaru's Arrows. Ever. He evaded all those daggers. So obviously the arrow is many many times faster than what Neji was able to easily dodge.

@bold is definitely surprising though. Even if those daggers didn't have a speed feat, we know for a fact they are fast enough to breach the human skin and lodge there. If Kido threw a dagger with his hand, that would never happen from over 50m out.

Yeah, from a regular human. Not a Ninja with superhuman strength and speed.

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Neji saw the daggers in the above scan late and was still hampered by a falling spider web that can hamper his movements. Those daggers are not evenly spread in terms of proximity to each other and we have 3 layers of this unevenly spread daggers. Neji doesn't get tagged except for the ones that enter his blindspot and yet you assume Sasuke who doesn't have any notable striking speed would touch Neji when he can not replicate strikes in form of the volume/number of daggers that attacked Neji there??

All this has been addressed below and in my last post. Mentioning daggers with zero speed feats doesn't help you here. What's even funnier about this situation is that you tell me not to use dodging feats as proof that Sasuke can dodge Neji's attacks (which isn't even what I'm doing :lol) yet you are over here stating that Neji dodging these attacks from a larger distance from where Sasuke dodged Naruto means that he dodges all of Sasuke's attacks in CQC.

The irony.

You say multiple hits like it was done in quick intervals when we know he used full strength to hit Naruto away and Naruto kept coming back at him from distances.

There were the times he hit Naruto on panel and when he disabled Naruto off panel. Whether it was multiple or not doesn't even change the point so why mention this? The point is he can comfortably tag someone easily faster than Neji whenever he pleases. So why would Neji be able to dodge all his attacks? That's a real comparison right there.

The fact you didn't even address this point only makes it more obvious how wrong you are. You tried to deflect by arguing semantics.

A speed he can't keep up for long and taijutsu that isn't exactly perfect as i believe you're referring to Sasuke's Lion combo? What do you gather 3T would raise Sasuke's taijutsu stat to? Because he had a 2.5 and Lee had a 3.5 in DB1. Sasuke at this point is only superior to DB1 Lee in reactions due to 3T right? Sasuke might be superior..but you saying far superior doesn't add up.

Nope. I'm referring to the movements he used against Gaara. Those are stated to be Lee's. Sasuke's actual Taijutsu stat wouldn't increase because the Taijutsu stat only measures skill, but in terms of overall ability I'm not sure how far it'd push him, but I've already illustrated everything with comparisons and feats so talking about numbers is pointless.

And Sasuke is far superior and yes it's because of 3-Tomoe. Sasuke seamlessly dodging Naruto in KN0 (counter attacking too) and KN1 are better feats than Lee has during the Chuunin Exams arc so why would Base Lee of all people be on Sasuke's level in reaction speed? Doesn't make sense.

And i would tell you because in the manga high speed combo's have never been touched?

Which literally does not change a thing I'm saying so stop bringing it up. Gai outright stated that Lee's key to beating Neji was a high speed combo that can't be touched, meaning Lee needs to hit and beat Neji before Neji can touch him.

True it's baseless...but you keep saying light punches would make Neji stagger and open to heavier punches. And i'm telling you a faster and stronger Lee in gates could have done that too. But we know he never beat Neji for a fact. Not from Gai but from Lee himself. Lee was quick to try and use

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. And we know that requires the

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. So i don't see how Lee won't have tried to use the 1st and 2nd gates to try and defeat Neji.

For the umpteenth time:

-STOP arguing against fact first and foremost.
-STOP replying with this same response when Neji receiving a hit from Lee=/=Lee beating Neji.
-STOP using an example where Neji was unrestricted against Lee.
-STOP using an example where the combatant (Lee) is not on Sasuke's level in close combat. Lee is not VoTE Sasuke. CE Arc Lee w/ 1st or 2nd Gate is NOT a Lee who will take on KN0 and stomp him like Sasuke did.

But Sasuke hitting Neji with a heavy strike = Sasuke defeating Neji?

I never said that. :lol

So because i can't bring scans, it proves Lee never challenged Neji to a fight after Gai started training him when we have Lee looking to test his ability against strong opponents?

Nope. It means that the only panels you have of Neji ever neg diffing Lee is before Gai trained him. Meaning you shouldn't be over here claiming that Neji was neg diffing Weightless and Gated Lee when there is literally nothing in the Manga supporting the claim that said events took place.

READ before you reply, because no one ever said this.

 

[neosmith500]

Neji being able to react to and dodge Weighted Lee comfortably says nothing about his actual movement speed in terms of outspeeding Sand. And the bold is based on nothing. No portrayal hints that. Portrayal simply puts Neji far above Unweighted Lee in overall power. Being able to react comfortably to him and maybe dodge some attacks doesn't mean he can casually dodge his attacks.

I agree on the Bold , i based the portrayal off of Gai's statement regarding 5G hinting to Neji being able to dodge weightless Lee in Taijutsu like Sasuke did to KN0 imo , since Lee needed to not be touched at all , this indicates that Neji should be able to easily dodge all his strikes in unweighted form because we know due to how fast Lee is moves without his weights not to mention shunshin and initial Gates , Neji shouldn't be able to aim accurately enough to end Lee with a single touch since he's moving so fast in CQC even without Extreme Lotus so this seems to indicate that his reflex back then was at a level where dodging Lee should be childs play since both are Taijutsu fighters and the Byakugan only aids reaction in real time.

-Since Neji didn't have his CE2 arsenal at the time Gai made this assessment , Neji's overall power would be his physical reaction reflex speed and Taijutsu right? it seems Neji was portrayed above Unweighted Lee in upper body movement speed or simply agility , how fast he can bob and weave his upper body in relation to Unweighted Lee using speed to attack while ziping around like he did to Gaara's Auto sand especially since Lee has shunshin and Initial Gates to build attack speed.

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Similar to how Neji dodged Kido's daggers one by one in waves by bobing around and not getting touched due to his agility , i feel Gai's statement was made out of Knowledge of Neji having the physical reflex to dodge all Lees attacks up until he uses the Hidden Lotus , Gai's statement hints that Neji is fast enough to casually evade and Jab any Lee which includes shunshin Lee or initial Gated with the only one that can breach Neji's offensive physical reaction reflex bein Extreme Lotus Lee.

-I feel this case would be similar to Kimimaro Vs Lee where Unweighted Lee was likely Faster in raw movement speed but Kimi was much more agile in movement speed and skilled enough to casually deal with Unweighted Lee in CQC until Lee gained the unpredictable edge to compliment his raw speed in order to outperform Kimi in CQC just like Lee needed 5G to outperform Prelims Neji in CQC , and just tell me if im being illogical in saying Unweighted Lee could likely be faster than base Kimi in raw speed with base Kimi only being much more agile because i based it on these scans and how i viewed the fight so tell me if im completely wrong here because its probably iffy but i base his performances on his quick agility and skill as opposed to simply being faster similar to Neji

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-Agreed that Neji's reaction speed>CE2 Sasuke. But that's just reaction speed. We're talking about movement speed here. Being able to dodge someone faster than you doesn't put on their level in speed. Sasuke can casually dodge KN0 and he can dodge KN1 yet he's clearly nowhere near as fast as either of them.

I agree here , it seems that its Neji's agility that really stood out more so than his foot speed in comparison to the others. Sasuke had the aided advantage of precog which got rid of the body speed requirement and amped his reaction timing not to mention by feats he could only casually react to KN0 but against KN1 he showed a bit of surprise at this new speed unlike KN0 even tho he could still anticipate and dodge relatively well enough his demeanor shows that he had more problem with dodging KN1 more so than he ever did against KN0 which is understandable.

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-In Neji's case he had no such aid and had to react in real time to the likes of unweighted Shunshin Lee and initial Gated Lee in Taijutsu back when he had even less reflex speed and before he knew Kaiten.

-All character's ability to bob and weave attacks is faster than footspeed because it's a simpler movement with less effort required. SM Naruto can dodge the 3rd Raikage yet he's not as fast as the Raikage. VoTe Sasuke can casually dodge KN0 yet he's not on his level in speed.

Agreed on the bold but SM Naruto had enhanced reflex the same as 3T Sasuke which mediates the speed level requirement in those comparisons while Neji has his natural reflex agility to be able to handle Unweighted Lee in CQC.

So there's really nothing supporting that Neji can outspeed Gaara's Sand like Lee did.

Yea , I agree.

 

[KidGamer65]

-Since Neji didn't have his CE2 arsenal at the time Gai made this assessment , Neji's overall power would be his physical reaction reflex speed and Taijutsu right? it seems Neji was portrayed above Unweighted Lee in upper body movement speed or simply agility , how fast he can bob and weave his upper body in relation to Unweighted Lee using speed to attack while ziping around like he did to Gaara's Auto sand especially since Lee has shunshin and Initial Gates to build attack speed.

No, it's Gentle Fist+Byakugan+All other physical abilities. Him being above Weightless Lee doesn't necessarily mean he can easily evade his attacks. Gai's statement about 5G Lee doesn't indicate he can easily evade all of Weightless Lee's attacks easily. Not sure how you came to that conclusion. Being able to react to someone much faster than Base Lee doesn't automatically mean he'll dodge someone slower, let alone easily.

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Similar to how Neji dodged Kido's daggers one by one in waves by bobing around and not getting touched due to his agility , i feel Gai's statement was made out of Knowledge of Neji having the physical reflex to dodge all Lees attacks up until he uses the Hidden Lotus , Gai's statement hints that Neji is fast enough to casually evade and Jab any Lee which includes shunshin Lee or initial Gated with the only one that can breach Neji's offensive physical reaction reflex bein Extreme Lotus Lee.

And that's based on little. Gai's statement literally does not hint that. It hints that he can react to 5G Lee. Tobirama can react to Obito but he's obviously not dodging Ay on foot despite Obito being faster than Ay by far when using the Juubi's power. So this argument doesn't work here.

-I feel this case would be similar to Kimimaro Vs Lee where Unweighted Lee was likely Faster in raw movement speed but Kimi was much more agile in movement speed and skilled enough to casually deal with Unweighted Lee in CQC until Lee gained the unpredictable edge to compliment his raw speed in order to outperform Kimi in CQC just like Lee needed 5G to outperform Prelims Neji in CQC , and just tell me if im being illogical in saying Unweighted Lee could likely be faster than base Kimi in raw speed with base Kimi only being much more agile because i based it on these scans and how i viewed the fight so tell me if im completely wrong here because its probably iffy but i base his performances on his quick agility and skill as opposed to simply being faster similar to Neji

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Weightless isn't faster than Kimimaro in terms of raw unenhanced speed. He has a 4.5, Lee has a 4. Kimimaro is just plain faster than him. Not to mention agility and movement speed aren't the only things that determine who beats who in CQC, reactions are a much more major part of the equation.

I agree here , it seems that its Neji's agility that really stood out more so than his foot speed in comparison to the others. Sasuke had the aided advantage of precog which got rid of the body speed requirement and amped his reaction timing not to mention by feats he could only casually react to KN0 but against KN1 he showed a bit of surprise at this new speed unlike KN0 even tho he could still anticipate and dodge relatively well enough his demeanor shows that he had more problem with dodging KN1 more so than he ever did against KN0 which is understandable.

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-In Neji's case he had no such aid and had to react in real time to the likes of unweighted Shunshin Lee and initial Gated Lee in Taijutsu back when he had even less reflex speed and before he knew Kaiten.

True, but does it really matter? Nah.

Agreed on the bold but SM Naruto had enhanced reflex the same as 3T Sasuke which mediates the speed level requirement in those comparisons while Neji has his natural reflex agility to be able to handle Unweighted Lee in CQC.

Same as above.

 

[neosmith500]

No, it's Gentle Fist+Byakugan+All other physical abilities. Him being above Weightless Lee doesn't necessarily mean he can easily evade his attacks. Gai's statement about 5G Lee doesn't indicate he can easily evade all of Weightless Lee's attacks easily. Not sure how you came to that conclusion. Being able to react to someone much faster than Base Lee doesn't automatically mean he'll dodge someone slower, let alone easily.

But Gentle Fist + Byakugan would be useless if his physical agility and reflex wasn't at a level where he could deal with Lee right? If he couldn't easily evade unweighted + shunshin and initial Gated Lee in CQC then i dont see why Lee would need the 5G combo to even "Dream" of beating him in CQC before Neji even had kaiten and was purely physical based on Lee's own words when considering Lee's physical power and speed when using the initial Gates + Shunshin should've been able to outpace Neji due to the massive boost in speed and power which was already enough to easily break bones in base but even those weren't enough to land a hit since landing a hit = Lee getting the victory under those conditions just like weighted Lee landing his first hit on Sasuke meant that he could've won the moment he sent Sasuke flying with the first hit.

And that's based on little. Gai's statement literally does not hint that. It hints that he can react to 5G Lee. Tobirama can react to Obito but he's obviously not dodging Ay on foot despite Obito being faster than Ay by far when using the Juubi's power. So this argument doesn't work here.

Good point here with tobirama but Gai's statement hints towards Lee being too fast for Neji to offensively react and touch/attack after he mentally reacts , rather than to simply mentally react then physically touch like wat Tobi did since he needed to place tags , but im a bit rustly on that Tobirama instance.

- If Neji can mentally react to 5G and physically jab/touch him as long as he doesn't use ura renge then i dont see why he wouldn't be able to easily dodge Unweighted Lee , and if he cant easily dodge Unweighted Lee then i dont see why Shunshin Lee or Initial Gates Lee wouldn't be able to physically outpace his physical reaction/reflex before he had kaiten in CQC when considering that shunshin greatly enhances weightless speed , then u add the 1st Gate which pushes lee further then the 2nd Gate which adds even more speed/power to lee's movements and Taijutsu.

Weightless isn't faster than Kimimaro in terms of raw unenhanced speed. He has a 4.5, Lee has a 4. Kimimaro is just plain faster than him. Not to mention agility and movement speed aren't the only things that determine who beats who in CQC, reactions are a much more major part of the equation.
.

Neji has a higher speed stat (4) compared VOTE Sasuke (3.5) and it doesn't mean he's faster than him in raw speed same with Haku which is the exact same difference as Lee and Kimi in stats.

-I agree with the Bold completely and took it all into account here , Kimi's high mental agility compliments his high physical agility and skill , with physical agility being his body movement speed which doesn't have to mean he's faster than Unweighted Lee similar to Neji , only that he's much more flexible , agile and skilled in evasive counteractive rotational CQC.

-Kimi showed a more counter based fighting style , the way he was portrayed seemed to imply that similar to Neji , it was his mental agility , physical agility and skill that stood out more so than his movement speed and it was implied that Kimiaro might not have been fast enough to simply blitz toward Gaara and get around the sand like Unweighted or initial Gated Lee could easily do without effort , but in terms of agility kimi could maneuver around the sand easier than he possibly blitz and outpace the sand attacks and defense like Lee casually could.

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-Kimiaro Showed a much more counter based fighting style focused on mental/physical agility , skill and technique >>>raw speed/power and offensive prone movements similar to Neji who is also more agile and reflexive more so than he's fast in raw movement speed , along with Kimi implying that he would likely have problems getting close to Gaara + his CQC fighting style being counter reaction based with offensive follow-ups which focuses on seein through the enemies attempted attack pattern then dodging/countering last minute , very much similar to Neji who always and i mean always chooses until the enemy attacks before he counters , But im super iffy on this bro so plz tell me where my logic doesn't add up.

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True, but does it really matter? Nah.
Same as above.

No it doesn't , just showing u that reasons for slower characters avoidin such such things are there , with Neji's portrayed as being due to his naturally high reaction/reflex/agility which u didn't deny anyway so yea it doesn't matter just a note.

 

[Jinrou]

Stop trying to draw a comparison here unless you are going to provide a comparison where both persons of interest are in disadvantageous positions. You don't need to outspeed someone to dodge someone's attacks (see Naruto dodging the Raikage, see Sasuke dodging Naruto) so mentioning that Neji strikes faster than Sasuke's raw movement speed doesn't help you, especially since raw movement speed is irrelevant to dodging.

So which is it man? Naruto and Sasuke dodging Raikage and Naruto respectively doesn't apply here as they obviously weren't in disadvantageous positions. We have someone who is >= his opponent in speed (according to you) that doesn't dodge or evade when he was in a disadvantageous position because of the speed of the attack.

In respect to this vs, you've admitted Sasuke being in a disadvantageous position due to a parry would be bad

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That's obviously not a missed attack. That's a parried attack. Obviously if Sasuke got hit in the same manner it'd be GG

We've seen parrying an attack comes easy for Neji. And it would be very absurd if you tell me Neji can't parry a linear punch from Sasuke. Hence why i've been asking since the very beginning for notable striking speed feats from Sasuke to show he'll be able to recover from a parried attack of his with a follow up attack faster than Neji can strike him.

In that case what you just quoted already addressed what will happen if Neji comes at him with 32 strikes. If you are hinting that Neji can strike that fast out of thin air as if it's just another punch to him then you are going to have to prove it
-His 32 final strikes have the most strength and speed of said technique.
-He needs a strong step forward to initiate the final 32 strikes at that speed. Stated in Wiki shown in the Manga (his stance once he lands the

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I hope you don't think Neji does all those foot movements during his 64 palms for fun. :lol They are there because moving his lower body like that means his strikes will be delivered with more speed and power. So if you think he can use 64 palms striking speed in regular CQC just like that you are clearly mistaken and the Manga definitely disagrees. We've already seen how Neji fights in regular hand to hand so I'm not sure how you are arguing this point in the first place. :lol

I'm not sure what you were trying to show with the scan of 64 palms on Naruto? Because Neji's stance right there is his stance after completing 64 palms. We clearly see when he was going for the final 32 strikes, he was in a spinning motion?

Bold..lol obviously it isn't for fun :lol Hitting someone like that is definitely going to be causing moving them to move backwards...Neji has to continually catch up blindingly fast to their new position.

And clearly the manga doesn't disagree. We see in the link you posted how multiple hits are done in a single panel lol

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"warding off an attack, especially with a counterattack"

That's a parry. Whatever parry Neji does is irrelevant to this small discussion here as I never said Sasuke will do what Neji does. I already described exactly what Sasuke will do. What Neji does isn't warding off an enemy attack with a counter attack. He dodges and then pushes the attack further along it's course, which is why Hinata was stumbling like she did. What I'm describing obviously requires less skill than what you are describing nor is what you are describing necessary for Sasuke to do here.

You've clearly said Sasuke would parry Neji's strikes before.

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If Neji attacks Sasuke with his normal Taijutsu style that he used against Naruto and Hinata, Sasuke parries his attacks and then beats him down

And i'm not sure what you mean with the rest of the post because Neji clearly removes himself from Hinata's path, escorts her attack in a direction and follows up with a counter attack. (

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Correct me if i'm wrong. But you now seem to agree Parrying is more difficult? So a scan of Sasuke actually parrying an attack should be appropriate?

This doesn't answer a thing I said. This is you restating the same thing I asked you to support in the first place.

This particular part of this debate started with you asking me to prove parried/dodged attacks will lead to a slight unbalanced state? I did so by showing how characters seem to have stumbled on their footing when their attacks have being dodged or parried because that's simply how motion works. Something you already seem to have known a while ago with the quote of you saying "If Sasuke gets hit like that then it'll be GG..."

He can use it sparingly. He doesn't need to use it long he only needs to use it long enough to gain the upper hand. So during the periods he copies Lee's Taijutsu:

-Their skill difference doesn't matter as he's using the movements of someone almost as skilled as Neji.
-Sasuke's movement and reaction speed are both superior. Movement being almost irrelevant in regular close quarters.
-Sasuke's strength is superior.

So how is Neji parrying all of Hinata's attacks evidence he'll do the same to Sasuke? I could use the same flawed logic and say that because Rock Lee has been shown to parry attacks, he can parry

- Lee who can use his own speed unlimited never got an upper hand against CE Neji
- lol CE Lee isn't almost as skilled as SRA Neji though. Saying he copied CE Lee's taijutsu doesn't really help here does it?
- Sasuke's movement speed isn't superior to SRA Neji or CE Lee. Sasuke's reactions aren't superior to Neji's.
- Without a doubt. And CE Lee's strength who didn't defeat CE Neji is the same as VoTE Sasuke.

Byakugan only affects his reaction speed, not his actual skill. In all it changes things but when comparing individual Taijutsu skill stats it doesn't matter.

Perhaps you can help explain what the difference between skill and overall ability is? I'm not understanding exactly what you mean here

Again, this has been addressed. Their hit alone won't unbalanced them and Neji isn't parrying anything here.

Terrible logic. Neji being able to stay alive with 2 gaping holes in his body doesn't say jack about his durability (resilience and durability are not the same thing) so how in the world did you come to the conclusion that a hit from Sasuke that doesn't have all his strength in it does nothing to him? :lol Nice try, but clearly no dice.

Underlined is actually laughable though. Why won't Neji be able to parry any of Sasuke's strikes?

As for the rest of the post, i suggest you fully understand the meaning of durability and resilience as they are two different things and Neji moving despite the pain that would have been coursing through his body from having two holes in him is a durability feat.

Then say parry, not dodging. :lol

Those scan's i brought shows stumbling from both parried attacks and dodged attacks.

Then this point is completely irrelevant because Gentle Fist alone isn't why Neji would defeat 1G and 2G Lee, so Lee being able to fight after a single gentle fist hit doesn't matter. He is straight up superior in hand to hand. Making this point is also irrelevant because you made this point as a response to Gai saying Lee needs to avoid being touched to defeat Neji.

What's worse is that you are just repeating the same thing over and over again without addressing what's been said to you. :lol

It isn't irrelevant though because of the bold. Gentle fist alone isn't enough to bring down first and second gated Lee because gates makes Lee tank the pain from Gentle fist.

It requires Neji pummeling a Lee who is way faster and stronger than VoTE Sasuke. Now Gentle fist is restricted here. But for Neji to have been able to take Lee down, he'll have had to have beaten Lee down is this incorrect? Neji isn't an aggressor and besides his CE self can't keep up with Gated Lee's speed anyway so this implies he beat down Lee with just counter attacking moves. Is this analysis incorrect?

Why are you ignoring what has been stated? Selective reading won't help you here. "High speed combo that CANNOT BE TOUCHED". Meaning the goal is NOT TO BE TOUCHED. I can't make this any simpler, and the bold is basically saying what I and the Manga are saying so what is the issue here?

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Manga is read from left to right. Gai never said the bold. High speed Taijutsu and High speed combo are two different things (if not he'll have said high speed taijutsu in both) with the secret to beating Neji the High speed combo. High speed combo refers to strikes right?

No, why don't you stop addressing points that aren't be made and understand what I'm saying. Everything in that paragraph is to prove that Sasuke has better reaction speed than Neji. Whether or not reacting to KN1 from a distance is as good as reacting to him in CQC DOES. NOT. MATTER when comparing reaction speed vs. reaction speed.

How exactly doesn't it matter though when movement speed=/= striking speed meaning reactions to these speeds would be different? You cannot just dismiss it without giving logical reasons.

Panel time isn't a measure of real time so how does this help your case? :lol Since when did 32 hits in one panel=32 hits SIMULTANEOUSLY?

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Can you honestly look at this scan and tell me the panel where Neji completes 64 palms with the remaining 32 hits wasn't done simultaneously in that single panel?

And where does that say that the user NEEDS to escape the circle to escape the technique?

Nowhere. It says enemies inside are TARGETED. Not that all enemies inside will be hit without fail.

Using the Byakugan’s 360 degrees vision and mapping this vision onto a Divination Hexagram Formation. Then the user will launch a series of high speed combo onto opponent that lies within this formation

You said that Neji's SKILL in Taijutsu was FAR greater than Lee's SKILL.

-Byakugan.
-Gentle Fist.

Irrelevant to pure skill. Those supplement overall Taijutsu ability they don't change Neji's actual skill in said art. I never said that Base Lee was on Neji's level overall in CQC, I said that saying Neji was far more skilled is wrong. I already know that Neji>>>Base Lee in overall Taijutsu ability including Gentle Fist and Byakugan. (former of which is restricted so I'm not sure why you bothered to mention that here)

But I will admit that I got the scores mixed up. My bad there. Neji has a 4.5 while DB 1 Lee, who Sasuke copied was a 3.5. So the gap in skill is moderately large.

Very well then..i guess i do see the difference between skill and overall ability now.

-All that was addressed above.
-This was replied to above as well.
-So is Sasuke's.
-Which he can, explained many times.

At bold is referring to Sasuke being able to hit Neji which your explanations have failed to prove. Neji's expertise is dodging, deflecting and parrying attacks and i honestly don't remember a single scan where Neji actually blocks an attack. Sasuke will need much more than a linear punch to be able to hit Neji since Sasuke's without a doubt going to be the aggressor here.

Based on what? Their number? Weak evidence. Neji can dodge a bunch of Base Naruto clones. Sasuke can dodge and counter a bunc of Base Naruto clones yet none of them at the time they accomplished those feats could seamlessly dodge KN0, despite it only being one man. (And while I'm on this point, you say Neji will parry all of Sasuke's strikes, which is even harder than dodging all of them according to the method of parrying you say Neji will use here, which only makes your argument weaker) Their speed? Nonexistent evidence since you've yet to actually show these things are tremendously fast. Sasuke reacted to KN0 and KN1 from less than 5m away and dodged them seamlessly both times.

Neji was able to avoid getting tagged against those bunch of Naruto clones. (

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) Actually, he wasn't even forced into a single block but iirc, Sasuke was forced into one and he was even tagged? This is showing incredible flexibility and cqc maneuvering from Neji. Is KN0 the version Neji fought in CE? Because if so i'm not exactly sure how you can claim Neji couldn't seamlessly dodge him when we have Neji engaging him in what was a brief Kunai battle?

Those daggers were fast. You just keep choosing to ignore it and @bold do cqc fights take place 5m away from each other?

Nope. It simply means that KN0 isn't strong enough to seriously injure Sasuke with the amount of strikes he landed on him during their fight.

Oh..understood..ty.

Lmao come on man. You know that you aren't making sense here. A COUNTER ATTACK IS AN ATTACK. Hence the term counter ATTACK. It being a counter doesn't change the fact it's an ATTACK. You don't have a point here. Same stat in speed is irrelevant because same stat in speed=/=Same speed. Speed stats=/=Characters actual speed when Shunshin (Lee vs. Sasuke) and other Ninjutsu that augment speed (haku) aren't taken into account.

No..a counter attack is a counter attack not a full on attack lol if not there'll be no need for the word counter no? A counter is in response to something. A full on attack is just what it is..an attack. The first person to throw a punch in a fight isn't counter attacking. He is attacking.

My point was an inferior sharingan was able to read Haku's top speed which was his movement from mirror to mirror thing? So why wasn't a superior sharingan able to read a counter attack?

Stop trying to imply that the chronology of an attack changes the fact that it's an attack.

What? The chronology shows that was clearly a counter attack lol

Does that change the fact that Sasuke's body was too slow to react?

Lmao..this is totally besides the point. Of course it doesn't change the fact but my question/point is why the sharingan didn't read a counter attack in the first place?

Sasuke was reacting clearly to Lee's attacks before (

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Lmao I don't need to. He doesn't have a greater feat thus I have no reason to hold him to Sasuke's standard in said department. If you think he has a feat(s) that match up to that then by all means share them with me.

Sasuke was able to sidestep Naruto's attacks because of the sharingan. The byakugan can track speed and anticipate attacks. And Neji is more flexible and at that point faster than Sasuke. Are these enough to prove Neji could dodge those linear punches too?

Then see what I just said to this point. Citing this feat is irrelevant as we've seen how fast Neji uses 64 palms. Citing an off panel feat when we've seen his capabilities on panel doesn't make your argument legit.

So we should just ignore the fact that portrayal shows you need 64 tenketsu closed to be unable to use chakra (which is what happened with Kido) and Neji is portrayed to have done that faster than Kido who had been falling could hit the ground?
(

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Distance AND TIME. So saying "they crossed 50m" says nothing about time, thus says nothing about speed. Fast enough to limit Neji to dodging 1 by 1? That literally makes no sense. Neji had to dodge 1 by 1 because he couldn't use Rotation. Him not being able to jump away from the entire area of them is because they covered too much area due to there being multiple daggers.

You say they are fast because they were fast enough to make Neji have to dodge them one by one, even though that does nothing to compare the speed of what Neji dodged to what Sasuke has dodged.

- Why would Neji need to use rotation for projectiles that aren't fast?
- How exactly would they cover that much area to prevent Neji from jumping out coming from the distance they came from without being fast?
- What Sasuke dodged was a single linear punch coming from distance. What Neji dodged point blank (as they have to get to him before he starts dodging) was multiple fast layered unevenly spread daggers coming from all angles.

Dude. It's a Manga with still images first of all. Second of all Kidomaru firing the trap right after the daggers doesn't make the daggers fast, it says nothing about speed. And lol no. Absolutely not. Neji could not evade any of Kidomaru's Arrows. Ever. He evaded all those daggers. So obviously the arrow is many many times faster than what Neji was able to easily dodge.

@bold lmao..In your words, ''No shit'' lol

@underlined looks to me like you're denying what the manga is showing.

Kido launched those daggers from the same location he launched those final arrows

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That means the daggers cover the distance i will call X that we see in the top panel here

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During the previous squabble, Kido launches daggers and we see them in Neji's face in literally the next panel after they were launched

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Meaning those set of daggers traveled distance X nigh instantly to be in Neji's face. But you are dismissing that because its a manga with still images? lol dude..

Your downplay of this feat doesn't seem logical enough too as i just searched a bit on the speed of launched projectiles like bullets and arrows. launched projectiles are fast.

@Italics Well obviously. No one can dodge something they don't see coming. (

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Yeah, from a regular human. Not a Ninja with superhuman strength and speed.

Interesting logic. Which means Kido wouldn't have needed a bow to fire that arrow since he could have just used his hand to throw it and use the thread connected to the base from his mouth to manipulate it into Neji's blindspot.

All this has been addressed below and in my last post. Mentioning daggers with zero speed feats doesn't help you here. What's even funnier about this situation is that you tell me not to use dodging feats as proof that Sasuke can dodge Neji's attacks (which isn't even what I'm doing :lol) yet you are over here stating that Neji dodging these attacks from a larger distance from where Sasuke dodged Naruto means that he dodges all of Sasuke's attacks in CQC.

The irony.

Neji could not begin dodging the daggers until they got to him first (

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). Sasuke dodged a single linear punch coming from a distance. These are obviously completely different scenarios.

There were the times he hit Naruto on panel and when he disabled Naruto off panel. Whether it was multiple or not doesn't even change the point so why mention this? The point is he can comfortably tag someone easily faster than Neji whenever he pleases. So why would Neji be able to dodge all his attacks? That's a real comparison right there.

The fact you didn't even address this point only makes it more obvious how wrong you are. You tried to deflect by arguing semantics.

- Underlined.. because Sasuke needs more than one linear punch to be able to hit Neji
- Bold...That someone was coming from a distance..If they engaged in cqc which is what this vs thread is about, then you have a point. Naruto just kept coming and Sasuke kept punting him up-field because of Sharingan's timing not speed.
- Because Neji would be able to dodge, deflect and parry his strikes if he doesn't have any notable striking speed.

Nope. I'm referring to the movements he used against Gaara. Those are stated to be Lee's. Sasuke's actual Taijutsu stat wouldn't increase because the Taijutsu stat only measures skill, but in terms of overall ability I'm not sure how far it'd push him, but I've already illustrated everything with comparisons and feats so talking about numbers is pointless.

Comparisons to a DB 1 Lee who is << SRA Neji in all areas except movement speed and strength.

And Sasuke is far superior and yes it's because of 3-Tomoe. Sasuke seamlessly dodging Naruto in KN0 (counter attacking too) and KN1 are better feats than Lee has during the Chuunin Exams arc so why would Base Lee of all people be on Sasuke's level in reaction speed? Doesn't make sense.

I never disputed the fact that Sasuke was > than Lee in reaction speed. I said that was the only thing Sasuke was superior in to DB 1 Lee.

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Sasuke at this point is only superior to DB1 Lee in reactions due to 3T right? Sasuke might be superior..but you saying far superior doesn't add up.

Which literally does not change a thing I'm saying so stop bringing it up. Gai outright stated that Lee's key to beating Neji was a high speed combo that can't be touched, meaning Lee needs to hit and beat Neji before Neji can touch him.

Gai didn't say that though did he? He said the key to defeating Neji is the high speed combo.

For the umpteenth time:

-STOP arguing against fact first and foremost.
-STOP replying with this same response when Neji receiving a hit from Lee=/=Lee beating Neji.
-STOP using an example where Neji was unrestricted against Lee.
-STOP using an example where the combatant (Lee) is not on Sasuke's level in close combat. Lee is not VoTE Sasuke. CE Arc Lee w/ 1st or 2nd Gate is NOT a Lee who will take on KN0 and stomp him like Sasuke did.

- Never did
- I never said a single hit from Lee is beating Neji lol. I was using your scenario of light punches to cause Neji to stagger and open to heavier punches. No where did i say a single hit takes Neji out.
- Even though Gentle fist means little to nothing when Lee is in gates?
- VoTE Sasuke is only greater than Lee in reaction speed. How does that make him low compared to Sasuke's level in close combat?

READ before you reply, because no one ever said this.

lol figured my use of neg diffing would come back to haunt me. So i retract all my neg diffing claims.

But it's a fact that DB 1 Lee never lost to Neji. My reply back there was because it seems you don't believe Lee would have tried to use gates to defeat Neji. Which wouldn't make much sense as we see him use gates off the bat against Sasuke.

 

[KidGamer65]

But Gentle Fist + Byakugan would be useless if his physical agility and reflex wasn't at a level where he could deal with Lee right? If he couldn't easily evade unweighted + shunshin and initial Gated Lee in CQC then i dont see why Lee would need the 5G combo to even "Dream" of beating him in CQC before Neji even had kaiten and was purely physical based on Lee's own words when considering Lee's physical power and speed when using the initial Gates + Shunshin should've been able to outpace Neji due to the massive boost in speed and power which was already enough to easily break bones in base but even those weren't enough to land a hit since landing a hit = Lee getting the victory under those conditions just like weighted Lee landing his first hit on Sasuke meant that he could've won the moment he sent Sasuke flying with the first hit.

That doesn't change the fact that Neji and Base Lee are considered to be worlds apart, and that Neji is considered to be strong enough to warrant Lee using the 5th Gate is because of Gentle Fist and Byakugan in combination with said physical ability and reflexes. Neji could handle regular Lee w/ hand to hand, but when talking about 5G it's obvious that Gentle Fist is needed.

Not sure why you are back on this point when I've already told you that being able to react to someone faster doesn't mean you can dodge someone slower. Tobirama can react to Obito, yet he can't dodge Ay. EMS Sasuke can react to KCM Naruto, yet he can't dodge Ay. Reaction speed and Movement speed are not the same nor do they have to be equal or even close. It all depends on said character, and even then, being able to evade him=/=Being able to easily evade him so I'm not sure where you are getting the basis of your argument from but it doesn't work here.

And since when was Base Lee strong enough to hit Neji or anyone in this Manga directly and break his/her bones? Using Sasuke's first strike against Lee as evidence that you are right because that would've happened to Neji also doesn't make sense when Neji is far stronger than that Sasuke, thus he obviously wouldn't take a hit that bad in the first place.

Good point here with tobirama but Gai's statement hints towards Lee being too fast for Neji to offensively react and touch/attack after he mentally reacts , rather than to simply mentally react then physically touch like wat Tobi did since he needed to place tags , but im a bit rustly on that Tobirama instance.

Not sure what you mean here or how this addresses/counters anything I said here. Gai's statement means that Ura Renge+5G lets Lee hit Neji with multiple strikes before Neji can touch him, meaning that normally Neji would be able to react to 5G Lee. You think reacting to Lee=Dodging a slower version of Lee easily. Tobirama not being able to dodge Ay, but being able to react to Obito disproves that claim.

- If Neji can mentally react to 5G and physically jab/touch him as long as he doesn't use ura renge then i dont see why he wouldn't be able to easily dodge Unweighted Lee , and if he cant easily dodge Unweighted Lee then i dont see why Shunshin Lee or Initial Gates Lee wouldn't be able to physically outpace his physical reaction/reflex before he had kaiten in CQC when considering that shunshin greatly enhances weightless speed , then u add the 1st Gate which pushes lee further then the 2nd Gate which adds even more speed/power to lee's movements and Taijutsu.

Why are you still repeating the bold? Saying "he can react to 5G, thus he can easily dodge Weightless Lee" makes no sense. The former doesn't support the latter at all and I've illustrated this with Tobirama, Naruto and Sasuke. And since when did not being able to easily dodge someone mean that you'd be able to "outpace their reactions". Makes no sense at all. Way too many gaps and leaps in logic being made on your end.

Neji has a higher speed stat (4) compared VOTE Sasuke (3.5) and it doesn't mean he's faster than him in raw speed same with Haku which is the exact same difference as Lee and Kimi in stats.

Based on what exactly? Because there is no feat that supports this statement in the Manga. Raw speed is speed w/o enhancements or Shunshin. Where did Sasuke show more raw speed than Neji? Not to mention same difference in points=/=Same difference in ability as we've already established that the pts system is closer to a tiering system than it is an exact measure.

-I agree with the Bold completely and took it all into account here , Kimi's high mental agility compliments his high physical agility and skill , with physical agility being his body movement speed which doesn't have to mean he's faster than Unweighted Lee similar to Neji , only that he's much more flexible , agile and skilled in evasive counteractive rotational CQC.

True for the most part, but no one better go try using this as evidence for why Neji supposedly dodges all of Sasuke's attacks when Kimimaro is in fact faster regardless of his agility being that high.

-Kimi showed a more counter based fighting style , the way he was portrayed seemed to imply that similar to Neji , it was his mental agility , physical agility and skill that stood out more so than his movement speed and it was implied that Kimiaro might not have been fast enough to simply blitz toward Gaara and get around the sand like Unweighted or initial Gated Lee could easily do without effort , but in terms of agility kimi could maneuver around the sand easier than he possibly blitz and outpace the sand attacks and defense like Lee casually could.

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This is a bad comparison. SRA Gaara is easily stronger than CE Gaara. Kimimaro not being fast enough to outspeed the sand and tag Gaara means one of the following:

-Kimimaro>Lee in raw speed, but Lee>Kimimaro in Shunshin.
-Gaara's Sand got faster, though this is more fact as the stronger he gets the faster his sand gets. So it could be number 2 alone or it could be a combination of the two that prevented Kimimaro from replicating Lee's feats.

-Kimiaro Showed a much more counter based fighting style focused on mental/physical agility , skill and technique >>>raw speed/power and offensive prone movements similar to Neji who is also more agile and reflexive more so than he's fast in raw movement speed , along with Kimi implying that he would likely have problems getting close to Gaara + his CQC fighting style being counter reaction based with offensive follow-ups which focuses on seein through the enemies attempted attack pattern then dodging/countering last minute , very much similar to Neji who always and i mean always chooses until the enemy attacks before he counters , But im super iffy on this bro so plz tell me where my logic doesn't add up.

Agreed with the bold. Him being unable to get close to Gaara is simply because of Gaara's fighting style not because his fighting style is "counter based", and it really isn't counter based. He was on the offensive for most of his fight with Lee. Lee was the one doing most of the dodging. Gaara can fight from all ranges and his attacks are fairly widespread even at the basic level, that's why Kimimaro can't get close to him.