SRA Neji VS Sakon/Ukon

[Simbv]

Curse you're being biased. You claim that they merge but can't find a manga scan to prove it so you pass it along to Neo. Come on son. The burden of proof is upon you.

 

[Curse Mark]

Curse you're being biased. You claim that they merge but can't find a manga scan to prove it so you pass it along to Neo. Come on son. The burden of proof is upon you.

I think you're a post behind or something. Where in my most recent post did I put the burden of proof on him about merging???

 

[Simbv]

I think you're a post behind or something. Where in my most recent post did I put the burden of proof on him about merging???

Literally the past post you made.

 

[Curse Mark]

Literally the past post you made.

I think you're a post behind or something. Where in my most recent post did I put the burden of proof on him about merging???

Where in my most recent post

Where

Where

Where

Please show me what you're referring to

 

[neosmith500]

Neither of us can really prove definitively what happened off screen honestly I think either of our theories is plausible.

My only question's about the whole "chakra/layer" shield thing.

Has Neji ever shown to use what you're describing without rotating after?


Bold: What is the connection between the chakra/layer and his range of vision? Unless you're just connecting them by the fact that he enlarged both, then I understand.
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-Nope , the theory that neji used 64 palms to deflect all those weapons from tenten usin his fingers is not plausible at all especially with how the weapons are circulated around him obviously shows that he used chakra to stop them all simultaneously and the obvious fact that neji never rotated his body with absence of a crater which can never be absent after kaiten is used (Fact) , its clear that my theory is not only vastly more plausible but its actually the only explanation to this scan and its perfectly within his powers to do so.

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Bold: He basically did only he used variations , in the scan im about to show u below he used it in small scale to deflect a kunai , he was also able to literally wrap his chakra around the kunai , showing that he can control his chakra in a variety of ways apart from the way im usin it and makes it possible/plausible for him to literally grab peoples fist with chakra and potentially keep it there similarly to kimimaro grabbing lees kick with bones , but that's a story for another day since u have them playing defense.

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-We have him expanding his chakra range while constantly releasing chakra , but this was more of a chakra field , u can clearly see that the chakra is not as condensed as it is for chakra shield/ kaiten and is not relevant to my argument , im only usin it to show that the hyuga can control their chakra in a number of ways to fit the scenario.

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-But the fact remains that we kno he can do this given his feats and intel given by kishi given about their abilities , literally ntn to prove he cant do it while on the flip side we have enormous proof to conclude that he did/can in scan in question , unless ur still gonna argue that he used 64plams in the scan in question which hav a feeling u logically wont do.

Second bold is exacty wat I mean btw.

Are you saying that he would blitz kill them? Because I disagree with that on several points and can elaborate if that's what you're saying.
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Yes , we all kno that kidomarus golden skin armor can be initiated instantly at will which would be as fast or faster than sakon/ukons merging ability. Any answer u choose to go with it would logically not be so far off speed-wise since the skin fluid hardens instantly when exposed to air and we all kno CM2 increases to users abilities tremendously along with the fact that kidomaro was portrayed to bein the more sensory orientated of the 4.

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Yet despite this a fatally injured and dying neji was able to blitz CM2 kido from well over 70m without the latter bein able to so much as expel his cm2 amped golden armor fluid which takes only a thought to initiate and hardens instantly , one can not even make the case that kido never saw him because he did , nor can they say he couldn't physically react since all he had to do was activate his armor with a thought , which shows that a dying nejis attacking and movement speed is ridiculous and deadly.

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-Now we all know kaiten is primarily a defensive technique , doesn't mean the tech cant be used for offense in cqc in the same way amaterasu can be flipped from offense to defense (bottom right)

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-By engaging sakon/ukon in cqc w/chakra already prepped and byakugan vigilant , he easily gains the favorable position in cqc over sakon/ukon and proceeds to time his kaiten initiation which will subsequently blast the duo away and we seen that kaiten can initiated by a single spin then it can be stopped or continued if the user so chooses , we have seen him stop his spin nigh instantly

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-After the duo gets blasted away by kaiten neji quickly uses his vastly superior speed (3 Vs 4.5 in DB) and taijutsu (4.5 Vs 3) , to kill them while they're still present in the after-shock of getting blasted away by kaiten.

-Even if one would argue that sakon/ukon would somehow break their body down into the liquid stage and start initiating the merging process before he gets to them afterwards , all neji would have to do is stay vigilant with his byakugan then proceed to feint that action by blitzing close to them while their still on their back from the kaiten blast , then he simply initiates a second kaiten which would grind away his liquidized form as kaiten does to the ground and rocks in the above scan, in theory effectively killing them if they try that option since in that state it becomes easier to envelope them in kaitens vortex due to the way in which the process is done.

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Okay but you said he can do that while attacking. He's never shown to do it while attacking with gentle fist.
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Ok but its irrelevant because we kno he can do but just never needed to since wasting less chakra is mostly always the best option in combat.

I was referring more to the part where you said it takes a long time. Clearly that's not the case.
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Ok.

Bold: What do you mean? One brother attacked Akamaru and got piss in his eyes, the other merged with kiba. that same exact moment. I can show you the scans again if you want.

Underlined: They jumped into the air immediately after summoning the rashomon gate. How would they have gathered the chakra before jumping?
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Ukon used sakon as a shield then proceeded to punched akamru in the face causing kiba to shift his focus away from towards akamaru who he had no idea if he died to that punch or not.
-Ukon choose that time to merg with kiba , not to mention both kiba/aka were badly fatigued and wary from the twin garoga.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________
I'd like to clarify a few things.


I agree that they can't merge through the dome of rotation.


Also I'd like to clarify a silly thing I've been doing where I keep saying 64 palms but I just meant attacking with gentle fist because it requires contact.

Great the 64 palms bit was getting annoying and if u notice carefully in my post its evident that I never ever formed the notion that neji would directly attack them with jyuken either so its all irrelevant to my argument , still its good that we got that bit out the way at least.

 

[Curse Mark]

-Nope , the theory that neji used 64 palms to deflect all those weapons from tenten usin his fingers is not plausible at all especially with how the weapons are circulated around him obviously shows that he used chakra to stop them all simultaneously and the obvious fact that neji never rotated his body with absence of a crater which can never be absent after kaiten is used (Fact) , its clear that my theory is not only vastly more plausible but its actually the only explanation to this scan and its perfectly within his powers to do so.

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I disagree. Not only is it off screen but the spiders fell around Neji exactly like how the weapons did.
Neji hits the spiders.

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3rd panel you can see them around him in a circle.

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You can see them all around him like the weapons.

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I agree he didn't use Kaiten, but it's off screen and you have to admit that it's not totally clear what happened.

Bold: He basically did only he used variations , in the scan im about to show u below he used it in small scale to deflect a kunai , he was also able to literally wrap his chakra around the kunai , showing that he can control his chakra in a variety of ways apart from the way im usin it and makes it possible/plausible for him to literally grab peoples fist with chakra and potentially keep it there similarly to kimimaro grabbing lees kick with bones , but that's a story for another day since u have them playing defense.

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Bring this up in the Lee vs Neji thread and we can talk about that theory there.

-We have him expanding his chakra range while constantly releasing chakra , but this was more of a chakra field , u can clearly see that the chakra is not as condensed as it is for chakra shield/ kaiten and is not relevant to my argument , im only usin it to show that the hyuga can control their chakra in a number of ways to fit the scenario.

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-But the fact remains that we kno he can do this given his feats and intel given by kishi given about their abilities , literally ntn to prove he cant do it while on the flip side we have enormous proof to conclude that he did/can in scan in question , unless ur still gonna argue that he used 64plams in the scan in question which hav a feeling u logically wont do.
Second bold is exacty wat I mean btw.

The thing is, Neji's never done it in canon. It's your theory that he would be able to do it without spinning, but we've never seen him do that. It's the beginning phase of rotation. He expels chakra and then rotates.

Yes , we all kno that kidomarus golden skin armor can be initiated instantly at will which would be as fast or faster than sakon/ukons merging ability. Any answer u choose to go with it would logically not be so far off speed-wise since the skin fluid hardens instantly when exposed to air and we all kno CM2 increases to users abilities tremendously along with the fact that kidomaro was portrayed to bein the more sensory orientated of the 4.

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The attack he used there was 64 palms though. (And this time it's not just me calling gentle fist 64 palms, he actually uses it and we see each step of it).

That's not a deadly attack. So that wouldn't blitz kill them.

Yet despite this a fatally injured and dying neji was able to blitz CM2 kido from well over 70m without the latter bein able to so much as expel his cm2 amped golden armor fluid which takes only a thought to initiate and hardens instantly , one can not even make the case that kido never saw him because he did , nor can they say he couldn't physically react since all he had to do was activate his armor with a thought , which shows that a dying nejis attacking and movement speed is ridiculous and deadly.

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Okay this was a Kidomaru who already had internal organ damage and had been fighting in CM2 for a long time. He was in a weakened state and then gets organ damage. Not to mention that he stayed alive for 14 pages after that attack!!

So again, not a blitz kill at all. Especially against someone who's not already severely damaged.

-Now we all know kaiten is primarily a defensive technique , doesn't mean the tech cant be used for offense in cqc in the same way amaterasu can be flipped from offense to defense (bottom right)

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Not even gonna address that comparison because they're two completely unrelated techniques.

Anways, in the bottom right we see rotation craters all over the ground. What about that makes them offensive? They were likely being used defensively(just because that's how the technique works and all)

-By engaging sakon/ukon in cqc w/chakra already prepped and byakugan vigilant , he easily gains the favorable position in cqc over sakon/ukon and proceeds to time his kaiten initiation which will subsequently blast the duo away and we seen that kaiten can initiated by a single spin then it can be stopped or continued if the user so chooses , we have seen him stop his spin nigh instantly

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Now, now. On the page before that we see that Neji uses full rotation as it leaves a crater and everything.

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Obviously he can stop spinning when he wants or he can keep spinning until he runs out of chakra. The point is that he still needs to spin.

-After the duo gets blasted away by kaiten neji quickly uses his vastly superior speed (3 Vs 4.5 in DB) and taijutsu (4.5 Vs 3) , to kill them while they're still present in the after-shock of getting blasted away by kaiten.

DB is weak without feats along with it. By manga portrayal, Sakon/Ukon are faster than him in terms of movement speed.

-Even if one would argue that sakon/ukon would somehow break their body down into the liquid stage and start initiating the merging process before he gets to them afterwards , all neji would have to do is stay vigilant with his byakugan then proceed to feint that action by blitzing close to them while their still on their back from the kaiten blast , then he simply initiates a second kaiten which would grind away his liquidized form as kaiten does to the ground and rocks in the above scan, in theory effectively killing them if they try that option since in that state it becomes easier to envelope them in kaitens vortex due to the way in which the process is done.

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They don't actually become a liquid puddle. When they break down at the molecular level and stair to pull away from each other it might look like liquid as their body is reforming but they aren't the actual consistency of water or anything like that.

Ok but its irrelevant because we kno he can do but just never needed to since wasting less chakra is mostly always the best option in combat.

It's not irrelevant because you used the scan to say "Look Neji can cover his wounds in chakra and attack at the same time- that's why neji can cover his body in chakra and attack at the same time"
But in that scan Neji wasn't covering his body in chakra and attacking at the same time because he cannot.

Bold:
You say he never needed to, but in the scan you tried to use he definitely needed to. He was dying and had massive holes in his body. The reason that he used the chakra on his wounds immediately after attacking Kidomaru is because he can't attack and use chakra like that at the same time.

Underlined: It wouldn't be wasting his chakra, it would have been saving his life since he was attacking Kidomaru on his death bed. Which again is why he used it immediately after attacking him.

Ok.

Glad we agree on that then.

Ukon used sakon as a shield then proceeded to punched akamru in the face causing kiba to shift his focus away from towards akamaru who he had no idea if he died to that punch or not.
-Ukon choose that time to merg with kiba , not to mention both kiba/aka were badly fatigued and wary from the twin garoga.

Nah dude. Ukon didn't choose that time to merge, he was already merged.

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That's why there's only three of them there. Red is Akamaru, Gray is Sakon, Blue is Kiba.

Also, there's no reason to believe that fatigue has any effect on being merged with, idk why you said that.

Great the 64 palms bit was getting annoying and if u notice carefully in my post its evident that I never ever formed the notion that neji would directly attack them with jyuken either so its all irrelevant to my argument , still its good that we got that bit out the way at least.

Were you or were you not arguing that he hits them with jyuken after they're "stunned by rotation" or something like that?
I've got more to say, but I wanna make sure we're on the same page about this first.

Cool though, it feels like we're making progress again here.
Looking forward to your response brotha.

 

[neosmith500]

I disagree. Not only is it off screen but the spiders fell around Neji exactly like how the weapons did.
Neji hits the spiders.

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3rd panel you can see them around him in a circle.

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You can see them all around him like the weapons.

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I agree he didn't use Kaiten, but it's off screen and you have to admit that it's not totally clear what happened.
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Couple things u missed or ignored and fail to understand.

1) The baby spiders have soft bellies and cant be compared to tentens variety of steel weapons.

2)The baby spiders were fewer in number and only came from above neji while tentens attack indicates it came from everywhere simultaneously.

3) Neji was only able to start 64 palms but not finish it due to there bein too many spiders which were fewer in number than wat ur sayin he was successfully able to fend off with 64 palms , and this was before the chunin exams.

Which leaves kaiten , and since he clearly didn't use kaiten its obvious that my claim holds much more logical substance and dude the manga is over and this is out of character , u cant debunk it and the manga does ntn to debunk it so just let it go r continue the debunked argument that he used 64 palms or kaiten and take us off the logical path we're on to reach the conclusion of who logically wins this match.

Bring this up in the Lee vs Neji thread and we can talk about that theory there.
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KK.

The thing is, Neji's never done it in canon. It's your theory that he would be able to do it without spinning, but we've never seen him do that. It's the beginning phase of rotation. He expels chakra and then rotates.
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My theory is supported by manga representation , unless u can disprove it by using descriptions written by the writer or manga panels explaining why he has to rotate everytime afterwards , u literally have ntn debunk my point and this fight is out of character , neji already done it in canon unless ur gonna that the page is non canon.

Its not simply a theory.

The attack he used there was 64 palms though. (And this time it's not just me calling gentle fist 64 palms, he actually uses it and we see each step of it).

That's not a deadly attack. So that wouldn't blitz kill them.
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I only used it to demonstrate how fast kido activates his golden armor :|

-Take this as my official statement , 64 palms is irrelevant to my argument for neji in this battle and wont I repeat wont be attempted or thought of by neji in my argument ok?

-He kills them or renders them unable to use/channel chakra and take note that this is not 64 palms

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Okay this was a Kidomaru who already had internal organ damage and had been fighting in CM2 for a long time. He was in a weakened state and then gets organ damage. Not to mention that he stayed alive for 14 pages after that attack!!

So again, not a blitz kill at all. Especially against someone who's not already severely damaged.
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Yea , u make it sound like neji was in tip top condition after everything that transpired before in the fight , neji was arguably in much worse condition and yet was still able to blitz cm2 kido before he could activate his golden armor with a thought , or at the very least reduce damage.

We kno for a fact that cm2 kido was still able to move/fight and mold chakra before he was blitzed by a dying and almost chakra empty neji who literally hung in there by a thread (pun intended).

The neji in my argument is in healthy condition , its irrelevant to mention kidos condition while ignoring neji's and failing to consider how fast kido can activate his golden armor.

Not even gonna address that comparison because they're two completely unrelated techniques.

Anways, in the bottom right we see rotation craters all over the ground. What about that makes them offensive? They were likely being used defensively(just because that's how the technique works and all)
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Fine.

Bold: U literally answered it urself but ill give u notes all the same.

1) Both neji and his clone which he was fight are both dominant cqc fighters,u can just take the animes logical representation on the fight.

2) The way the craters are aligned on the ground gives clear indication that rotation was used to clash rotation , that along with the fact that some were intertwined gives much needed substance to my notion along with the fact that both are obviously cqc fighters that use cqc attacks and defenses apart from air palm it begs the question to wat was ur point in the first place , wat are u arguing against?

3) U never answered why kaiten cant be used as offense in cqc where its used as defense.

Answer why it cant be used in cqc with detailed explanations or u can make it a simple as u want just answer it and don't say because its a defensive technique like that is enough to debunk it when I already told u how he does this , all above for u to see in earlier posts.

Now, now. On the page before that we see that Neji uses full rotation as it leaves a crater and everything.

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Obviously he can stop spinning when he wants or he can keep spinning until he runs out of chakra. The point is that he still needs to spin.
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Which was my point:| wouldn't make sense for me to try and prove how fast neji can stop his spin if he never used rotation in the first place now would it?:|


Bold: Now explain to why he needs to spin , especially in my argument , then try to debunk the scan in which its done.
Or at the very least explain it without bein illogical while simultaneously taking into considerations kishis own descriptions not helping u to debunk this in the least and its backed by this manga page.

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DB is weak without feats along with it. By manga portrayal, Sakon/Ukon are faster than him in terms of movement speed.
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Databook gave accurate stats and description on sakon/ukon with sakon bein slightly faster and better in the physical area due to bein the more active brother and sakon was confirmed slower than kiba.

Bold: Based on wat? the fact that ukon was able to unmerge from sakon unnoticed then sliped around the team , attack shikamru by blindsiding him with shuriken , then slip back around the team who focused their attention to shikamru since they had no idea wat had happened?.

Couple things wrong with that feat.

1) The team were caught-unaware after they had successfully caught all 4 of them.

2) Neji nor kiba never saw fit to use their sensory powers and nejis byakugan was off and he was in a crouched position if im not mistaken.

3) This was never a race , the team were not on guard nor could suspect or fathom the possibility of that happening and such the feat cant be used to argue that ukon would be able to pull the same shit in a direct battle against any of the rookies , when manga sakon who is faster than ukon unable to blitz just kiba alone.

So yea ur point basically falls apart rights there unless u have any other notable speed feats to share?
Until then manga portrays that neji>sakon>ukon in speed and databook reaffirms it , neji-(4.5) , sakon-(3.5) and finally ukon-(3) ntn to suggest that the db is incorrect so again u have no basis.


I can bring multiple scans to prove neji>>sakon/ukon in speed so u better get ur sakon speed and reaction feats ready.

They don't actually become a liquid puddle. When they break down at the molecular level and stair to pull away from each other it might look like liquid as their body is reforming but they aren't the actual consistency of water or anything like that.
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Never said they turned into a liquid puddle , u already agreed that they cant merge through so its irrelevant.

It's not irrelevant because you used the scan to say "Look Neji can cover his wounds in chakra and attack at the same time- that's why neji can cover his body in chakra and attack at the same time"
But in that scan Neji wasn't covering his body in chakra and attacking at the same time because he cannot.


Bold:
You say he never needed to, but in the scan you tried to use he definitely needed to. He was dying and had massive holes in his body. The reason that he used the chakra on his wounds immediately after attacking Kidomaru is because he can't attack and use chakra like that at the same time.

Underlined: It wouldn't be wasting his chakra, it would have been saving his life since he was attacking Kidomaru on his death bed. Which again is why he used it immediately after attacking him.
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Ok , I was wrong about that instance , but why does it matter because it does ntn to refute any of my points either way which is why I said it was irrelevant.

Literally the most irrelevant point in our discussion next to 64 palms.

Glad we agree on that then.
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Me too

Nah dude. Ukon didn't choose that time to merge, he was already merged.
That's why there's only three of them there. Red is Akamaru, Gray is Sakon, Blue is Kiba.
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Bold is literally directly after he used sakon as a shield to block akamarus piss as stated by sakon himself , which happened before ukon punched akamaru in the face , which was all before he merged with kiba:|

U literally countered ntn I said bro , seriously.

Also, there's no reason to believe that fatigue has any effect on being merged with, idk why you said that.
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No but it obviously has a effect on kiba/akamarus performance , along with the fact that they just slammed into a rashomon gate with enough force to dent it after usin twin wolf , twice.

Are u asking why a healthy neji would perform better than that kiba in completely different scenarios? lol I hope not.

Were you or were you not arguing that he hits them with jyuken after they're "stunned by rotation" or something like that?

I've got more to say, but I wanna make sure we're on the same page about this first.

Cool though, it feels like we're making progress again here.
Looking forward to your response brotha.

Bold is correct , which is not the same as just directly attacking them from the start with no planning behind it.

-I feel so too , we just need to get rid of some the irrelevant stuff so we can come to a agreement on who wins more often than not because right now sakon/ukon are dead or unable to use their chakra.

 

[The Arizen]

Neo has clearly won this debate , I wish both debaters would just come a understanding because its already reached that point with neos latest post.

 

[Claymantan]

Alright, I read through the thread, and realtalk, neosmith is winning, but I think that I think that because Curse's win condition for Sukon is wayyyy the hell in the beginning of this argument. XD

Things I'm more convinced about than not about:

1) Neji can use chakra in the way neosmith describes. He's right, Neji couldn't have been using Kaiten as we understand it in that Tenten scan, and it wouldn't make sense if he blocked every attack individually. Granted, we don't know what actually happened, but it's more unlikely that Tenten slowly threw things at him one by one in that scan than it is that he can expand the chakra layer to block moves without having to use the full Kaiten. But, see confused:

2) Sukon's merge is too fast for Neji to react to if they can pull it off. I still feel like once they're in there, they win.

3) Neji isn't throwing sh*t with chakra layer redirect XD (I know neo didn't say this, but I have to point this out)​

Things I'm not convinced about:

1) I don't understand the point of all that debating about Sasuke vs. Sukon.

2) The stuff about Sukon gathering chakra to perform their merger is a bit iffy. We don't really know how that goes down. We've just seen it used in a very fast way. Obviously Neji sees them go into CM2 and with full intel he knows what they're doing, but I don't know if he can stop them from getting it off.​

Things I'm confused about:

1) Neji can keep the chakra layer up while attacking?

2) Curse, why did you drop the stuff about explosives? Neji can dodge anything Sukon can throw at him, but he's not outrunning an explosion. Sukon's surest way to win this battle is to tire Neji out by forcing him to keep chakra layer up as much as possible. Neosmith is right, at CQC Neji does have the advantage, based on the way he's portrayed Neji's chakra layer (which is convincing).

3) Are you guys in agreement that if Neji uses Jyuuken, they can merge while being hit?
​

Things I'm surprised no one has really been emphasizing:

1) Neji can just outlast Sukon if he decides to play defensive, can't he? CM2 is limited.​

 

[Simbv]

Things I'm surprised no one has really been emphasizing:

1) Neji can just outlast Sukon if he decides to play defensive, can't he? CM2 is limited.​

Lol this is very true, while debating i totaly forgot about how they can't stay in CM2 without dying after a certain amount of time. I was lost in the fact of trying to prove that they wouldn't merge though. But yeah Neo is winning at this point, this threads fate is sealed.

 

[neosmith500]

Things I'm not convinced about:

1) I don't understand the point of all that debating about Sasuke vs. Sukon.
]​

To show that sra neji>>>>>>>>>>>>>>ce neji>>>>>>>>>>>sharinganless/ninjutsuless sasuke >>>>>>>>>>sakon without kkg in cqc skill and reaction since the only reason he survived lion barrage and beat sasuke was because of his kkg with ukon.

2) The stuff about Sukon gathering chakra to perform their merger is a bit iffy. We don't really know how that goes down. We've just seen it used in a very fast way. Obviously Neji sees them go into CM2 and with full intel he knows what they're doing, but I don't know if he can stop them from getting it off.

]

He can because he does this with the tactic I layed out and its a kkg so it has to involve chakra no matter how fast.

Things I'm confused about:

1) Neji can keep the chakra layer up while attacking?
]​

Yea , he can move , he only spins to start rotation and if chakra is not bein expelled through all the tenketsu in his arms , then me can also use jyuken. But that's irrelevant because i just need him to be able to maneuver.(middle left panel)

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2) Curse, why did you drop the stuff about explosives? Neji can dodge anything Sukon can throw at him, but he's not outrunning an explosion. Sukon's surest way to win this battle is to tire Neji out by forcing him to keep chakra layer up as much as possible. Neosmith is right, at CQC Neji does have the advantage, based on the way he's portrayed Neji's chakra layer (which is convincing).

Explosives were already countered by neji's awareness and speed along with it bein limited , he wont tire neji out more so than giv neji openings to blindside him and the scenario in which he caught neji and shika was strictly circumstantial.

3) Are you guys in agreement that if Neji uses Jyuuken, they can merge while being hit?

]

A direct attack? maybe but not after they get blasted away by kaiten and blitzed followed by their chakra getting locked.

Cm2 kido was unable to activate his golden armor in time which requires a mere thought and hardens instantly , no reason to assume that sakons tech is faster and i already created a counter scenario in which neji literally grinds them out of existence by usin a second kaiten close to them while they're on their backs from the initial kaiten if he sees any suspicious chakra activity or irregular internal movement from within , u know since the body is breaking down and all.

Things I'm surprised no one has really been emphasizing:

1) Neji can just outlast Sukon if he decides to play defensive, can't he? CM2 is limited.​

I did , and i even did it earlier than this.

1. True but irrelevant to the fact that we kno cm2 drains them faster than it would take for them to kill neji.

So basically neji wins either way since curse has him playing defense , while his only hope of victory requires cm2 and his speed and all other feats are useless if it comes to that.

 

[The Arizen]

Good post claymantan , fair.

 

[Curse Mark]

Couple things u missed or ignored and fail to understand.

1) The baby spiders have soft bellies and cant be compared to tentens variety of steel weapons.

2)The baby spiders were fewer in number and only came from above neji while tentens attack indicates it came from everywhere simultaneously.

3) Neji was only able to start 64 palms but not finish it due to there bein too many spiders which were fewer in number than wat ur sayin he was successfully able to fend off with 64 palms , and this was before the chunin exams.

Which leaves kaiten , and since he clearly didn't use kaiten its obvious that my claim holds much more logical substance and dude the manga is over and this is out of character , u cant debunk it and the manga does ntn to debunk it so just let it go r continue the debunked argument that he used 64 palms or kaiten and take us off the logical path we're on to reach the conclusion of who logically wins this match.

1, 2, 3 prove nothing.

1. So what if they have soft bellies?
2. So what if they were fewer in number?

Neji could have easily just evaded and hit the weapons with jyuken.

The spiders landed around Neji in a circle just like the weapons.

We saw what happened with the spiders in canon and the result. The result was the same as the weapons. It's much more logical to use what we actually know- we have two almost identical end results. Much more likely that he did what he already showed to do in canon than your fan fiction which he's never shown.

My theory is supported by manga representation , unless u can disprove it by using descriptions written by the writer or manga panels explaining why he has to rotate everytime afterwards , u literally have ntn debunk my point and this fight is out of character , neji already done it in canon unless ur gonna that the page is non canon.
Its not simply a theory.

Dude. He has to rotate because he's never shown the ability to use rotation without the rotating. How are we even discussing this?
It doesn't matter that it's not in character. That doesn't give him abilities he's never shown.
If you're referring to the scan of him redirecting Kidomaru's kunai- he didn't rotate because the webs stopped him from rotating.

Bold: I have nothing to debunk your point? You have no evidence to support your point and the manga shows the opposite of what you're saying.

He must rotate to use rotation.

I only used it to demonstrate how fast kido activates his golden armor :|

-Take this as my official statement , 64 palms is irrelevant to my argument for neji in this battle and wont I repeat wont be attempted or thought of by neji in my argument ok?

-He kills them or renders them unable to use/channel chakra and take note that this is not 64 palms

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Yea , u make it sound like neji was in tip top condition after everything that transpired before in the fight , neji was arguably in much worse condition and yet was still able to blitz cm2 kido before he could activate his golden armor with a thought , or at the very least reduce damage.

We kno for a fact that cm2 kido was still able to move/fight and mold chakra before he was blitzed by a dying and almost chakra empty neji who literally hung in there by a thread (pun intended).

The neji in my argument is in healthy condition , its irrelevant to mention kidos condition while ignoring neji's and failing to consider how fast kido can activate his golden armor.

Wrong. It has everything to do with it. It wasn't a fatal technique at all. It doesn't have the ability to kill a dying kidomaru, let alone a healthy sakon/ukon.

Fine.

Bold: U literally answered it urself but ill give u notes all the same.

1) Both neji and his clone which he was fight are both dominant cqc fighters,u can just take the animes logical representation on the fight.

2) The way the craters are aligned on the ground gives clear indication that rotation was used to clash rotation , that along with the fact that some were intertwined gives much needed substance to my notion along with the fact that both are obviously cqc fighters that use cqc attacks and defenses apart from air palm it begs the question to wat was ur point in the first place , wat are u arguing against?

3) U never answered why kaiten cant be used as offense in cqc where its used as defense.

Answer why it cant be used in cqc with detailed explanations or u can make it a simple as u want just answer it and don't say because its a defensive technique like that is enough to debunk it when I already told u how he does this , all above for u to see in earlier posts.

1. No we won't take the anime's interpretation on this fight. Because the fight happened entirely off screen, so the anime literally made up the fight.

2. It's just as likely that rotation was used more than once in spots right next to eachother.
You can't prove that the two craters that overlapped weren't used by the same Neji.

3. Kaiten can't be used as an offensive technique

because it is against it's properties! It has never been shown to be used as an offensive technique! You can't lunge forward with a rotation because you have to be stationary to use it!

Which was my point:| wouldn't make sense for me to try and prove how fast neji can stop his spin if he never used rotation in the first place now would it?:|


Bold: Now explain to why he needs to spin , especially in my argument , then try to debunk the scan in which its done.
Or at the very least explain it without bein illogical while simultaneously taking into considerations kishis own descriptions not helping u to debunk this in the least and its backed by this manga page.

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Bold: Because spinning is part of the technique. He's never, ever, ever shown to use rotation without spinning, bar the one time when he was trying to spin and his rotation was stopped by an external force.
It requires the spin.
I already talked about that scan in the first section of this current post.

Databook gave accurate stats and description on sakon/ukon with sakon bein slightly faster and better in the physical area due to bein the more active brother and sakon was confirmed slower than kiba.

Bold: Based on wat? the fact that ukon was able to unmerge from sakon unnoticed then sliped around the team , attack shikamru by blindsiding him with shuriken , then slip back around the team who focused their attention to shikamru since they had no idea wat had happened?.

Couple things wrong with that feat.

So yea ur point basically falls apart rights there unless u have any other notable speed feats to share?
Until then manga portrays that neji>sakon>ukon in speed and databook reaffirms it , neji-(4.5) , sakon-(3.5) and finally ukon-(3) ntn to suggest that the db is incorrect so again u have no basis.


I can bring multiple scans to prove neji>>sakon/ukon in speed so u better get ur sakon speed and reaction feats ready.

Again, DB means nothing without manga to back it up.
I never even mentioned that feat in the thread I just said by manga portrayal. So you done goofed wasting your time trying to counter an argument I never even made.

Bold: Lmao I do.
Underline: Again, DB means nothing without manga to back it up.
@Underline and bold: please bring said feats and i'll be happy to counter them
Sakon/Ukon are faster.

Never said they turned into a liquid puddle , u already agreed that they cant merge through so its irrelevant.

I said they can't merge through the dome of rotation. When Neji is rotating.

Ok , I was wrong about that instance , but why does it matter because it does ntn to refute any of my points either way which is why I said it was irrelevant.

Literally the most irrelevant point in our discussion next to 64 palms.

Hardly. Without that, you lose your argument that Neji can attack and cover his wounds or any part of his body with chakra at the same time.

No but it obviously has a effect on kiba/akamarus performance , along with the fact that they just slammed into a rashomon gate with enough force to dent it after usin twin wolf , twice.

Are u asking why a healthy neji would perform better than that kiba in completely different scenarios? lol I hope not.

Bold: No I never asked that. I'm not talking about performance in general i'm talking about merging.

You tried to argue that being fatigued has something to do with them getting merged with. They would have gotten merged with if they were fatigued or not as fatigue has no effect on the technique.

Bold is correct , which is not the same as just directly attacking them from the start with no planning behind it.

-I feel so too , we just need to get rid of some the irrelevant stuff so we can come to a agreement on who wins more often than not because right now sakon/ukon are dead or unable to use their chakra.

No. Because rotation still isn't used offensively as it has never been shown to in canon.

Rotating is a part of kaiten as Neji has never used Kaiten without rotating unless he was restrained.

 

[Simbv]

No. Because rotation still isn't used offensively as it has never been shown to in canon.


Rotating is a part of kaiten as Neji has never used Kaiten without rotating unless he was restrained.

Kaiten has two stages.

1.Chakra Shield
2. You than Rotate to perform Kaiten.

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As seen in this scan, Neji stops Naruto's fist without spinning he then rotates to blast him away.

Exercpt from the Databook:
KEKKEI GENKAI; Taijutsu: Hakkeshou Kaiten (Titanic Revolution* of the Eight Trigrams Palm)
User: Hyuuga Neji
Defensive; Close range; Rank: none

Main text

A taijutsu where one releases a large amount of chakra from their body's chakra openings to catch the blows from an enemy's attacks, while making one's body spin to repel them. A secret transmitted by oral tradition within the Hyuuga's Main House, though Hyuuga Neji came up with it own his own, despite him being from the Branch House. It stands in the same league as Gaara's Sand as an ultimate protection, and was even called "the other Absolute Defense". This is the high grade taijutsu that made Neji's prodigious talent known during the Chuunin exam."

 

[Curse Mark]

snip

Don't butt in man, he's more than capable of arguing for himself.

I'd respond but I'll just save it for him when he responds.

 

[The Arizen]

^Dude get some understanding neo isnt saying neji can use rotation without rotating , he's saying that he expel his chakra dome and expand it without rotating afterwards.

What a sore loser honestly.

Kaiten has two stages.

1.Chakra Shield
2. You than Rotate to perform Kaiten.

You must be registered for see images

As seen in this scan, Neji stops Naruto's fist without spinning he then rotates to blast him away.

Exercpt from the Databook:
KEKKEI GENKAI; Taijutsu: Hakkeshou Kaiten (Titanic Revolution* of the Eight Trigrams Palm)
User: Hyuuga Neji
Defensive; Close range; Rank: none

Main text

A taijutsu where one releases a large amount of chakra from their body's chakra openings to catch the blows from an enemy's attacks, while making one's body spin to repel them. A secret transmitted by oral tradition within the Hyuuga's Main House, though Hyuuga Neji came up with it own his own, despite him being from the Branch House. It stands in the same league as Gaara's Sand as an ultimate protection, and was even called "the other Absolute Defense". This is the high grade taijutsu that made Neji's prodigious talent known during the Chuunin exam."

This , wat a sore loser can't simply conceed even when u just took a dump on his point.

He replies fast with shity posts and doesnt think about wat neos saying nor understand. The guy still thinks neji used 64 palms to deflect the weapons , nuff said.

 

[Simbv]

Don't butt in man, he's more than capable of arguing for himself.

I'd respond but I'll just save it for him when he responds.

Lol but when other guys were butting in to help you out, you said they were reiterating your point.
The hypocrisy.

 

[Curse Mark]

^Dude get some understanding neo isnt saying neji can use rotation without rotating , he's saying that he expel his chakra dome and expand it without rotating afterwards.

What a sore loser honestly.

Nice to hear commentary from the peanut gallery.

Lol but when other guys were butting in to help you out, you said they were reiterating your point.
The hypocrisy.

Nah I've just been answering your little interruptions and it takes away from me and Neo's discussion.

Go ahead and quote whatever you're referring to, because if they were reiterating my points I probably would have said that's what they were doing.

 

[The Arizen]

Says its an open debate , snips when simva takes lion sized dump on his post.

 

[Simbv]

Nice to hear commentary from the peanut gallery.



Nah I've just been answering your little interruptions and it takes away from me and Neo's discussion.

Go ahead and quote whatever you're referring to, because if they were reiterating my points I probably would have said that's what they were doing.

I showed that scan to prove that he can repel Sakon/Ukon and kunai without using rotation, which Neo has already done multiple times. Your time with Neo has come, this debate is basically over.