SRA Neji VS Sakon/Ukon

Simbv

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I'm not even going to dignify this level of idiocy with a proper response. Goodbye.
Cause you obviously cant.


You came in here yammering and running your mouth and said:
Why is this debate even going on? It's obvious that Curse Mark won and Simbv is in subconscious denial of his defeat.
When there has been 3 pages of debating going on since i stopped having an discussion with Curse(which i haven't been apart of until now). Obviously the debate is still going on.Which makes your statement irrelevant. Now go bathe in irrelevancy.
 
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neosmith500

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Ah I don't really remember lol, I might go take a look.




1. Still no evidence as to why only chakra, which wouldn't even be tangible chakra, would stop them.
2. Not irrelevant as your point was that he attacked while doing it and I proved you wrong.
3. No. I already showed many times in this thread that they can merge and unmerge in less than a second.
4. Baseless. It'll take them less than a second to merge with Neji once he attacks and then they kill him immediately after that.
Bold : He can move and attack while the chakra-shield is active, which is tangible he literally spins because that's just required for kaiten.

literally no proof they would pass through the chakra.

-Also this is the size difference between CE Neji and SRA Neji showing great increase in the potency and range to which he can alter tangible his chakra-shield


Compared to this:


So gain how is sakon/ukon merging through this much tangible chakra ,distancing him so far away from neji while hes broken down to a molecular level?


2) U never proved he cant do it since he is literally shown expeling chakra from two different wounds in different locations on his body apart from the hands/feet , simultaneously and ten ten sums it up pretty accurately anyway and that's only basic info.



3) But u have yet to prove how long the process between kneeling the chakra and using the skill is , for all we know they coulve already kneeled chakra long before even jumping towards the stunned kiba/akamaru not that it mattered since they cant see wat neji sees anyway , the fact that they require cm2 to even pull the feat is evidence enough for me.

4) How do they merg pass the tangible chakra again?
 
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Curse Mark

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Bold : He can move and attack while the chakra-shield is active, which is tangible he literally spins because that's just required for kaiten.

literally no proof they would pass through the chakra.
You're the one making the claim they wouldn't pass through, so you have to prove that they wouldn't.
>Make a claim
>Support the claim

-Also this is the size difference between CE Neji and SRA Neji showing great increase in the potency and range to which he can alter tangible his chakra-shield

Compared to this:
Call it rotation. Calling it chakra shield just kind of blurs what we're talking about.
The scan you used showed rotation so I'm assuming thats what we're talking about.

I agree rotation size is larger in the second scan though.


So gain how is sakon/ukon merging through this much tangible chakra ,distancing him so far away from neji while hes broken down to a molecular level?
I'm confused why you're arguing about them trying to merge through rotation. I never said they would try to merge through rotation.
Why would Neji use rotation?
If Neji hits them with 64 palms, he gets merged with. He doesn't have time to execute rotation.

2) U never proved he cant do it since he is literally shown expeling chakra from two different wounds in different locations on his body apart from the hands/feet , simultaneously and ten ten sums it up pretty accurately anyway and that's only basic info.
I did prove you wrong. I showed you that he wasn't expelling chakra from the wounds when he attacked. He started that after he attacked. I even boxed the parts of the scan to show you.

3) But u have yet to prove how long the process between kneeling the chakra and using the skill is , for all we know they coulve already kneeled chakra long before even jumping towards the stunned kiba/akamaru not that it mattered since they cant see wat neji sees anyway , the fact that they require cm2 to even pull the feat is evidence enough for me.
Bold: No. We know what happened. They summoned the Rashoman gate right before jumping and attacking.
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I'm sure you know how chakra works. You have to knead the chakra right before you use the attack. The only time they could have kneeded the chakra would be as they were jumping to attack

Underlined: That doesn't make sense. CM2 allows them to use their KKG on other people besides each other.
The technique is a CM2 technique for them, so of course they needed CM2 for that feat lol.
 

neosmith500

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You're the one making the claim they wouldn't pass through, so you have to prove that they wouldn't.
>Make a claim
>Support the claim



Call it rotation. Calling it chakra shield just kind of blurs what we're talking about.
The scan you used showed rotation so I'm assuming thats what we're talking about.

I agree rotation size is larger in the second scan though...

Nope the burden of proof is on u , ur the one that is all of a sudden now making the claim that they can merge through the chakra layer when u made no such insinuation to that notion earlier in ur debate with simbv when u were driving ur point that they would merge the moment he attacks lol now that iv worked around u now try to insinuate he can merge through it , which is literally baseless when considering his abilities and how it was portrayed and showed bein done in the manga.

Anyway , the chakra-layer that neji uses for kaiten doesn't have any of the openings that clothes and the human body/skin does , each time sakon/ukon initiated merger the body is fused into the body in a liquidized state due to the break-down of the inner internal core.


This state has only been shown to merg into the direct body/skin of the host , bring scans showing capability to do otherwise or let it be debunked and move on.

Bold: Im not talking about rotation , if I do ill mention it by name , I literally noted the reason I used it in the comparison between the two scans, I was clearly referring to the first stage of kaiten (the part where chakra is expelled to stop the enemies attack) and the fact that his chakra potency and range increased.

Sakon/ukon only have feats of bein able to merge into the human genome not into and through everything , bring scans or this cannot be argued lol.

-Cm2 gave them the ability to merg into other humans , yet im the one that has to come up with proof of them bein able to merge into/through anything and everything other than the human-genome?:|


I'm confused why you're arguing about them trying to merge through rotation. I never said they would try to merge through rotation.
Why would Neji use rotation?
If Neji hits them with 64 palms, he gets merged with. He doesn't have time to execute rotation..



Dude , I literally addressed how and why he uses kaiten multiple times especially in that wall of text , I never said anything about them trying to merge through rotation , neji doesn't even need to rotate in order to expand his layer of chakra , nb4 u say kaiten was used in the below scan I'm about to provide , plz have a corresponding scan ready showing neji post kaiten without a crater bein left underneath from the chakra havin been grinded into the earth. ill wait.


But the fact remains that rotation itself is a integral part to my argument , and plz stop forgetting or failing to comprehend why because I literally have everything hand-written in that wall of text above for u , if u ever forget again.

- I thought I told u to stop bringing 64 palms into the discussion this is probably the 64th time u mentioned it without me bringing it up , its irrelevant to my argument , counter wat I bring to the table and stop diving under it.

-Baseless , rotation can be started nigh instantly with a single left or right turn as shown against naruto and its speed of execution has increased in the SRA.



I did prove you wrong. I showed you that he wasn't expelling chakra from the wounds when he attacked. He started that after he attacked. I even boxed the parts of the scan to show you..
Yes but irrelevant since my point was proven in that very scan with him doing exactly wat I stated he could do.




Bold: No. We know what happened. They summoned the Rashoman gate right before jumping and attacking.


I'm sure you know how chakra works. You have to knead the chakra right before you use the attack. The only time they could have kneeded the chakra would be as they were jumping to attack

Underlined: That doesn't make sense. CM2 allows them to use their KKG on other people besides each other.
The technique is a CM2 technique for them, so of course they needed CM2 for that feat lol.
Yea we know wat happened , atleast a shallow understanding anyway, but it doesn't change the fact that neji would know wat happened in much greater detail than us/kiba , a fact u simply seem to cannot grasp .

-Other points are irrelevant really , changes ntn I said and debunks ntn really , anyway I agree I guess.

So basically the only point ur now holding onto is the baseless notion that the merger is not only capable of merging into the human genome (as in canon) but also any tangible thing/object???
While u cant bring a single scan/panel to prove ur claims?
 
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Curse Mark

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Nope the burden of proof is on u , ur the one that is all of a sudden now making the claim that they can merge through the chakra layer when u made no such insinuation to that notion earlier in ur debate with simbv when u were driving ur point that they would merge the moment he attacks lol now that iv worked around u now try to insinuate he can merge through it , which is literally baseless when considering his abilities and how it was portrayed and showed bein done in the manga.
Dude. The burden of proof is not on me. I never said it could or couldn't. You're to one who brought this up.
Bold: Exactly, because I never made that argument.

This is debating 101. You make a point, you back up the point.
You made the point that merging wouldn't go through rotation- you would back it up with some type of evidence.
IF I chose to counter it, I would have to use evidence as well.

Debating 101.
Anyway , the chakra-layer that neji uses for kaiten doesn't have any of the openings that clothes and the human body/skin does , each time sakon/ukon initiated merger the body is fused into the body in a liquidized state due to the break-down of the inner internal core.


This state has only been shown to merg into the direct body/skin of the host , bring scans showing capability to do otherwise or let it be debunked and move on.
I never disagreed with this, so.
Bold: Im not talking about rotation , if I do ill mention it by name , I literally noted the reason I used it in the comparison between the two scans, I was clearly referring to the first stage of kaiten (the part where chakra is expelled to stop the enemies attack) and the fact that his chakra potency and range increased.
You do know that kaiten is rotation right?

"Kanji 八卦掌回天
Rōmaji Hakkeshō Kaiten
English anime Eight Trigrams: Palm Rotation
English games Rotation"



Sakon/ukon only have feats of bein able to merge into the human genome not into and through everything , bring scans or this cannot be argued lol.

-Cm2 gave them the ability to merg into other humans , yet im the one that has to come up with proof of them bein able to merge into/through anything and everything other than the human-genome?:|
1. I never said they could merge into inanimate objects.

2. Again, debating 101. You make a claim, you prove the claim.
Same way countering works. If I was to make a claim with no proof it would be baseless.
(Same goes for you)


Dude , I literally addressed how and why he uses kaiten multiple times especially in that wall of text , I never said anything about them trying to merge through rotation , neji doesn't even need to rotate in order to expand his layer of chakra , nb4 u say kaiten was used in the below scan I'm about to provide , plz have a corresponding scan ready showing neji post kaiten without a crater bein left underneath from the chakra havin been grinded into the earth. ill wait.
Bold:Can you show me a scan of the chakra layer you're referring to? Is this the first layer of rotation like against Naruto?

Size5: Lol. Why would I say that's kaiten?

@you waiting. Keep waiting, because i never said that it was rotation.

It was clearly this that he was doing.
You must be registered for see images




But the fact remains that rotation itself is a integral part to my argument , and plz stop forgetting or failing to comprehend why because I literally have everything hand-written in that wall of text above for u , if u ever forget again.

- I thought I told u to stop bringing 64 palms into the discussion this is probably the 64th time u mentioned it without me bringing it up , its irrelevant to my argument , counter wat I bring to the table and stop diving under it.

-Baseless , rotation can be started nigh instantly with a single left or right turn as shown against naruto and its speed of execution has increased in the SRA.
Bold: He needs to use 64 palms to kill them.
Unless you think rotation could kill them and that's laughable.

Underlined: Still not as fast as I showed them merging against Naruto and company.

Yes but irrelevant since my point was proven in that very scan with him doing exactly wat I stated he could do.

Not irrelevant. You said he covered his wounds with chakra and attack at the same time. He did not.

Yea we know wat happened , atleast a shallow understanding anyway, but it doesn't change the fact that neji would know wat happened in much greater detail than us/kiba , a fact u simply seem to cannot grasp .
You flipped your entire argument on this point lol.
1.First you said we don't know how long it took them to merge chakra for the attack.
2.I showed you that we know it happened instantly.
3.Now you're saying Neji's going to know what's happening in greater detail than kiba. What is the connection??

So i'm going to take your concession on the point about them needing to gather chakra to merge or that it will take a long time.

-Other points are irrelevant really , changes ntn I said and debunks ntn really , anyway I agree I guess.

So basically the only point ur now holding onto is the baseless notion that the merger is not only capable of merging into the human genome (as in canon) but also any tangible thing/object???
While u cant bring a single scan/panel to prove ur claims?
Bold: I never said that.
 
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Simbv

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How does he kill them without using 64 palms, his only fatal attack?
Jyuken is a fatal fighting style. Dude stop trolling. Every attack can be fatal. He didn't use 64 palms against Hinata and almost killed her. He didn't even kill Kido with 64 palms. Are you trolling me:lol?
 
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Simbv

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Lmao clearly you are the troll.

Jyuken=Gentle fist.

64 palms is a derived technique of gentle fist.

So i'll ask again, are you going to actually make an argument? What does neji use to kill him?
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Jyuken is a fatal fighting style. Dude stop trolling. Every attack can be fatal. He didn't use 64 palms against Hinata and almost killed her. He didn't even kill Kido with 64 palms.
I'll ask again, are you trolling me?
 

Curse Mark

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I'll ask again, are you trolling me?
Yeah just keep beating around the bush while you scramble to think of a response.

Gentle fist is the closing of the chakra points and in turn damaging the internal organs intertwined with them.

64 palms is closing of the 64 chakra points, but it should have been pretty obvious that by saying 64 palms I just meant closing of chakra points.

Without using that, how does he kill them?
 

Simbv

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Yeah just keep beating around the bush while you scramble to think of a response.

Gentle fist is the closing of the chakra points and in turn damaging the internal organs intertwined with them.

64 palms is closing of the 64 chakra points, but it should have been pretty obvious that by saying 64 palms I just meant closing of chakra points.

Without using that, how does he kill them?
Lol yeah you damn troll.

10/10
 

Curse Mark

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Lol yeah you damn troll.

10/10
Lmao i'll take your concession then. If you don't have anything serious to offer then just don't even bother commenting. I mean if I made a mistake or am wrong feel free to correct me and i'll clarifly/change what I was saying.
 

Jinrou

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Lmao clearly you are the troll.

Jyuken=Gentle fist.

64 palms is a derived technique of gentle fist.

So i'll ask again, are you going to actually make an argument? What does neji use to kill him?
lol..He basically just stated how Hinata almost died without Neji having to use 64 palm strike..Heck if it wasn't for the instructors stopping him during the Chuunin exams, that last strike he was about to make (that obviously isn't 64 palms) would have definitely killed Hinata.
 

neosmith500

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Dude. The burden of proof is not on me. I never said it could or couldn't. You're to one who brought this up.
Bold: Exactly, because I never made that argument.

This is debating 101. You make a point, you back up the point.
You made the point that merging wouldn't go through rotation- you would back it up with some type of evidence.
IF I chose to counter it, I would have to use evidence as well.

Debating 101.


I never disagreed with this, so.
.

Sakon/ukon have the ability to merg into the similar bio-makeup of each other in base (not other people) , in CM2 they gain the ability to merg into the bio-makeup of others.

So we have literally zero reasons for it to be able to pass through while on the flip side we have manga facts showing and explaining that it works by merging directly into the human-genome , so yea the burden of proof is on u and since u just said u never disagreed with the fact that their bodies in cm2 merges with the hosts body in a liquidized state then we literally have no reason to assume that this liquid state would go through the tangible chakra shield
which is obviously much different that the body/flesh of a human.


You do know that kaiten is rotation right?



"Kanji 八卦掌回天
Rōmaji Hakkeshō Kaiten
English anime Eight Trigrams: Palm Rotation
English games Rotation"
.
:eww: ................. irrelevant.


1. I never said they could merge into inanimate objects.

2. Again, debating 101. You make a claim, you prove the claim.
Same way countering works. If I was to make a claim with no proof it would be baseless.
(Same goes for you)
.
But ur directly insinuating a baseless fact that they can merge into the chakra shield/layer then merge into/through neji when manga showings and description on the tech shows ntn to suggest that notion along with the fact that if this notion was to be true , then we'd have sakon/ukon merging through tree's , susano'o/PS , walls , or anything else other than directly into the human-genome.

Now ur asking me to prove he cant merge through it? lol ,the only baseless notion here is on ur side bruh.



Bold:Can you show me a scan of the chakra layer you're referring to? Is this the first layer of rotation like against Naruto?
Size5: Lol. Why would I say that's kaiten?

@you waiting. Keep waiting, because i never said that it was rotation.

It was clearly this that he was doing.
You must be registered for see images

.

Bold: Middle left
This layer of obviously tangible chakra can be expanded widely without rotation as ur gonna see in my next scan.


U said he obviously used kaiten in that scan when I used it in another debate but whatever im glad we got that covered (pun intended)

-So are u tellin me neji used 64palms to deflect all tentens weapons coming from every angle in the same way he deflected kido's spiders? lmao


He obviously expanded his chakra layer/shield without physically rotating his body similar to how he expanded his wide range vision in the bottom panels of this scan only he used chakra in the erlier scan.







Bold: He needs to use 64 palms to kill them.
Unless you think rotation could kill them and that's laughable.

Underlined: Still not as fast as I showed them merging against Naruto and company.
.

Bold is getting annoying , read all these scans one at a time plz.


2)

3)

If neji used this same single attack against the real naruto then the match would've ended there without any need of landing a additional 63 palms on naruto afterwards.


-I already addressed how and why he uses kaiten , he uses it simply to blast them away followed by a blitz kill like in cm2 kidos case.

Underlined: The process of simply expelling the chakra layer/shield is more than fast enough to cover for the nigh instant start of the spin so again u have no point here along with the fact that I said he'd rush them with chakra already prepped.


Not irrelevant. You said he covered his wounds with chakra and attack at the same time. He did not..
Ok , but he was shown expelling chakra from two different wounded areas in the body constantly and at the same time , ntn I said goes against the description given to us by kishi/tenten of the hyugas ability to control their tenketsu , he can obviously control when a where from his body he can release his chakra.


You flipped your entire argument on this point lol.
1.First you said we don't know how long it took them to merge chakra for the attack.
2.I showed you that we know it happened instantly.
3.Now you're saying Neji's going to know what's happening in greater detail than kiba. What is the connection??



So i'm going to take your concession on the point about them needing to gather chakra to merge or that it will take a long time.
.

They obviously need to gather chakra to merge , if ur looking for a concession to that fact then you've already effectively soloed urself.
Our understanding of the exact scenario is shallow at best while neji's would be far more detailed with more understanding given to him than us/kiba in the same way it was here.


How do u know exactly when he gathered chakra in mid-air? , it could've been before or after he attacked akamaru which makes it far slower than instant , how do u kno he didn't gather chakra before even jumpin , if we had byakugan then clearly with its combination of visual capability we'd be able to answer these questions and that's the connection ur asking for.
 
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Forbidden Technique

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^That , with manga scans to prove it.




This is neji utilizing expanded vison to see everything (



This is when he clearly isn't using expanded vision since he thought he had won.


Just concede to the fact that neji simply wasn't utilizing exapned vision in jirobos case , its cleary shown to the reader by nejis pov , how could kiba detect jirobo first when byakugan can track these many targets simultaneously yet canyt track jirobo?


Gets no simpler than that bro.
Alright... Now that I actually have time to really look at the manga scans, and do some of my own reasearch; I'll concede. Still, Neji can seemingly switch into his 360 degree vision near instantly at will, so I have no idea why he wouldn't of done so immediately after stating that Jirobo disappeared. Perhaps, he couldn't see underground at that point.
 

neosmith500

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Alright... Now that I actually have time to really look at the manga scans, and do some of my own reasearch; I'll concede. Still, Neji can seemingly switch into his 360 degree vision near instantly at will, so I have no idea why he wouldn't of done so immediately after stating that Jirobo disappeared. Perhaps, he couldn't see underground at that point.
Only plot can answer that sadly , by logical assessment we can deduce that neji is capable of seeing through the ground along with obvious signs that jirobo dug underground being present to neji and the readers to begin with.

Instead of saying "he disappeared " he should've made sense of the evidence clearly visible to his visual spectrum and said "he went underground!?" , logically.

Then he could've done two things , either :
A) Look underground like superman would.
B)Switch to 360° vision instead of stating the shallow inaccurate fact that "he vanished/disappeared" after clearly seen evidence that he dug underground , that along with the fact that jirobo was clearly shown favouring "earth affinity" lol.

At the very least this explains why kaguya got blindsided by sakura w/byakugan active .

Its all on plots side to deduce when they feel it best to have their 360° active or not.


OT: What is ur opinion on this match btw ?
 
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Curse Mark

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Sakon/ukon have the ability to merg into the similar bio-makeup of each other in base (not other people) , in CM2 they gain the ability to merg into the bio-makeup of others.

So we have literally zero reasons for it to be able to pass through while on the flip side we have manga facts showing and explaining that it works by merging directly into the human-genome , so yea the burden of proof is on u and since u just said u never disagreed with the fact that their bodies in cm2 merges with the hosts body in a liquidized state then we literally have no reason to assume that this liquid state would go through the tangible chakra shield
which is obviously much different that the body/flesh of a human.
Like I said I was just asking for you to bring evidence with your point but regardless okay.

I'll mention this part again towards the end of the post when I kind of clarify and elaborate a little bit on some stuff I think I haven't been doing a good job of explaining.


But ur directly insinuating a baseless fact that they can merge into the chakra shield/layer then merge into/through neji when manga showings and description on the tech shows ntn to suggest that notion along with the fact that if this notion was to be true , then we'd have sakon/ukon merging through tree's , susano'o/PS , walls , or anything else other than directly into the human-genome.

Now ur asking me to prove he cant merge through it? lol ,the only baseless notion here is on ur side bruh.
I'm just saying that debating works with when you make a claim, any claim, you provide some type of evidence or proof. But really, it doesn't really matter but again- ill elaborate towards the end.


Bold: Middle left
This layer of obviously tangible chakra can be expanded widely without rotation as ur gonna see in my next scan.


U said he obviously used kaiten in that scan when I used it in another debate but whatever im glad we got that covered (pun intended)

-So are u tellin me neji used 64palms to deflect all tentens weapons coming from every angle in the same way he deflected kido's spiders? lmao


He obviously expanded his chakra layer/shield without physically rotating his body similar to how he expanded his wide range vision in the bottom panels of this scan only he used chakra in the erlier scan.


Neither of us can really prove definitively what happened off screen honestly I think either of our theories is plausible.

My only question's about the whole "chakra/layer" shield thing.

Has Neji ever shown to use what you're describing without rotating after?

Bold: What is the connection between the chakra/layer and his range of vision? Unless you're just connecting them by the fact that he enlarged both, then I understand.

Bold is getting annoying , read all these scans one at a time plz.


2)

3)

If neji used this same single attack against the real naruto then the match would've ended there without any need of landing a additional 63 palms on naruto afterwards.
I'll address this towards the end. I've been kind of vague and confusing to other people on this note possibly. I'll elaborate.

-I already addressed how and why he uses kaiten , he uses it simply to blast them away followed by a blitz kill like in cm2 kidos case.
Are you saying that he would blitz kill them? Because I disagree with that on several points and can elaborate if that's what you're saying.


Ok , but he was shown expelling chakra from two different wounded areas in the body constantly and at the same time , ntn I said goes against the description given to us by kishi/tenten of the hyugas ability to control their tenketsu , he can obviously control when a where from his body he can release his chakra.
Okay but you said he can do that while attacking. He's never shown to do it while attacking with gentle fist.


They obviously need to gather chakra to merge , if ur looking for a concession to that fact then you've already effectively soloed urself.

Our understanding of the exact scenario is shallow at best while neji's would be far more detailed with more understanding given to him than us/kiba in the same way it was here.
I was referring more to the part where you said it takes a long time. Clearly that's not the case.

How do u know exactly when he gathered chakra in mid-air? , it could've been before or after he attacked akamaru which makes it far slower than instant , how do u kno he didn't gather chakra before even jumpin , if we had byakugan then clearly with its combination of visual capability we'd be able to answer these questions and that's the connection ur asking for.
Bold: What do you mean? One brother attacked Akamaru and got piss in his eyes, the other merged with kiba. that same exact moment. I can show you the scans again if you want.

Underlined: They jumped into the air immediately after summoning the rashomon gate. How would they have gathered the chakra before jumping?


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I'd like to clarify a few things.


I agree that they can't merge through the dome of rotation.


Also I'd like to clarify a silly thing I've been doing where I keep saying 64 palms but I just meant attacking with gentle fist because it requires contact.
 
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