[Theory] Speculation surrounding "Rikudou Naruto"

[take it easy]

1. i dont see how sasuke can awaken true sage mode in the middle of the fight
2. if you thinking about this big part of narutos jutsu its something more than only raw power because for these jutsu need more than average finnese

 

[Transcendence]

1. dont see how sasuke can awaken true sage ode in the middle of the fight
2. if you thinking about this big part of narutos jutsu its something more than only raw power because for these jutsu need more than average finnese

I stated "courtesy of the mystery man" as it is likely he will play a part in Sasuke's acquiring of such a mode. And it wouldn't be in the middle of the fight. Naruto is going to come back first and fight Madara. Sasuke's natural adaptability to Senjutsu from his past and the time Naruto can buy is more than enough for Sasuke to develop it on top of whatever else he acquires and aid Naruto in defeating Madara. ​

 

[SIR HERDERP PRESIDERP SDO]

So you agree with the part that states rikudou was born with kaguya's "god like power"?

Well he was born with powerful Chakra already dwelling within him, and his mother Kaguya "Acquired the power of a God" (Viz Translation) after consuming the fruit. (Mangapanda translated it as "Holy Power")

 

[Mr Hiru]

But they don't represent the sons... That was Madara and Hashirama.

How many times does Naruto have to be paralleled to Rikudou before people realize that the sons parallel is non-existent when talking about Naruto and Sasuke? Sasuke willingly accepted the words and will of Hashirama, a descendant of the Younger Son and his brothers will the same. Naruto is paralleled to the first Rin'negan user ever. Completely different Dojutsu, completely different motives (The protection of the Bijuu's = Rin'negan, the destruction of the Bijuu's = ESD as it is about power and radical change). This isn't a simple path to peace is love or power type ordeal. It is larger scale and the parallels are far different. ​

But even if they don't parallel the sons, they are meant to be the counterpart at some point (in the end), so they shall reach balance, be counterparts, yin and yang.

This is not something invented in the base, this was stated by Kishimoto when he said that these two were destined to fight.

 

[Transcendence]

So you agree with the part that states rikudou was born with kaguya's "god like power"?

Read the line of events portion of the thread.

Kaguya ate the fruit (essence of the Juubi). Hagoromo was born with such power from birth. He had the Juubi's power ever since he was born.​

 

[Seventh Sama]

Well he was born with powerful Chakra already dwelling within him, and his mother Kaguya "Acquired the power of a God" (Viz Translation) after consuming the fruit. (Mangapanda translated it as "Holy Power")

I can't rep you atm .-. , but now it makes me interested in kaguya's abilities now...

 

[Transcendence]

But even if they don't parallel the sons, they are meant to be the counterpart at some point (in the end), so they shall reach balance, be counterparts, yin and yang.

This is not something invented in the base, this was stated by Kishimoto when he said that these two were destined to fight.

Yes, and that has to do with their ideals.

It was even strengthened more the last chapter. Naruto is EXACTLY like Hagoromo. Both in ideals and soon to be power (Rin'negan is still merely a possibility though, I don't deal with absolutes). His relations with the Bijuu's, his will and his soon to be power, and the way they both tried to connect people (through their chakra). All the same.

The altercation between Naruto and Sasuke doesn't have to do with power; it's a clash between Rikudou and the Elder Son's ideals. Rikudou (Naruto) wants to keep the Bijuu's alive and let them be treated properly in the system that Rikudou created believing that people can understand each other, but the Elder Son (Sasuke) believes radical change through power is needed in order to reshape the system and this will be done by killing the Bijuu's.
​

 

[Nanosoldier]

At the very least, we will see an appearance by the SO6P

Otherwise this panel would have been a waste

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Chapter 629, Page 7, Middle Panel

 

[SIR HERDERP PRESIDERP SDO]

I can't rep you atm .-. , but now it makes me interested in kaguya's abilities now...

Yes ty, here's the official Viz Translation of that panel:

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

 

[Mr Hiru]

Yes, and that has to do with their ideals.

It was even strengthened more the last chapter. Naruto is EXACTLY like Hagoromo. Both in ideals and soon to be power (Rin'negan is still merely a possibility though, I don't deal with absolutes). His relations with the Bijuu's, his will and his soon to be power, and the way they both tried to connect people (through their chakra). All the same.

The altercation between Naruto and Sasuke doesn't have to do with power; it's a clash between Rikudou and the Elder Son's ideals. Rikudou (Naruto) wants to keep the Bijuu's alive and let them be treated properly in the system that Rikudou created believing that people can understand each other, but the Elder Son (Sasuke) believes radical change through power is needed in order to reshape the system and this will be done by killing the Bijuu's.
​

Question: Why are you leaving the younger son out of the equation? Rikudou and Elder Son weren't the two sides of the same coin.

 

[SIR HERDERP PRESIDERP SDO]

Question: Why are you leaving the younger son out of the equation? Rikudou and Elder Son weren't the two sides of the same coins.

I seriously doubt Naruto embodies the Younger Son, for the Younger Son lacks one vital element that Naruto and Rikūdo have: Friendship with the Bijus.

Not once did Kurama or the Bijūs alluded to the YS when talking about the Sage, and the Younger Son's embodiment: Hashirama was never friends with the Bijūs.

 

[Transcendence]

Question: Why are you leaving the younger son out of the equation? Rikudou and Elder Son weren't the two sides of the same coin.

What relevance does he have in this? Naruto doesn't represent him at all, as he's not a Senju. He's been related to Rikudou the umpteenth times more than one can even remember, without any evidence to relate him to the Younger Son. I say Rikudou and the Elder Son because those are the ideals that are shaping the final fight. The relation to the Bijuu's is seen only by two people in the entire Naruto universe; Hagoromo and Naruto. The need for radical change and it being forced is done through power and represented through Sasuke and parallels the Elder Son's views. Technically, by extension, Hagoromo did choose the Younger Son's ideals to succeed him so he is inherently part of this equation, but this is becoming far off topic from your initial qualm about the Dojutsu users. Yin and Yang is not relegated to the sons solely. While they are part of it, and have been represented by Madara and Hashirama already, the Yin and Yang concept is prevalent entirely in the manga beyond them. The darkness (Yin) of Konoha and the light of Konoha beyond that (Yang) which was done primarily by Danzo an Hiruzen is another representation on a grand scale of this concept. It isn't solely about the sons. ​

 

[Mr Hiru]

I seriously doubt Naruto embodies the Younger Son, for the Younger Son lacks one vital element that Naruto and Rikūdo have: Friendship with the Bijus.

Not once did Kurama or the Bijūs alluded to the YS when talking about the Sage, and the Younger Son's embodiment: Hashirama was never friends with the Bijūs.

I understand that Naruto doesn't have to be the parallel to the younger son, but I find rather strange that the Younger son has been losing spotlight all this time.

What relevance does he have in this? Naruto doesn't represent him at all, as he's not a Senju. He's been related to Rikudou the umpteenth times more than one can even remember, without any evidence to relate him to the Younger Son. I say Rikudou and the Elder Son because those are the ideals that are shaping the final fight. The relation to the Bijuu's is seen only by two people in the entire Naruto universe; Hagoromo and Naruto. The need for radical change and it being forced is done through power and represented through Sasuke and parallels the Elder Son's views. Technically, by extension, Hagoromo did choose the Younger Son's ideals to succeed him so he is inherently part of this equation, but this is becoming far off topic from your initial qualm about the Dojutsu users. Yin and Yang is not relegated to the sons solely. While they are part of it, and have been represented by Madara and Hashirama already, the Yin and Yang concept is prevalent entirely in the manga beyond them. The darkness (Yin) of Konoha and the light of Konoha beyond that (Yang) which was done primarily by Danzo an Hiruzen is another representation on a grand scale of this concept. It isn't solely about the sons.​

The Younger son was the Yang and the Elder son the Yin in their ideals, so I don't understand that the Elder Son could be the opposite to Rikudou in the current context.

I don't find that Rikudou is someone who shares the same vision as the younger son, I see him more as someone that gave the chance to follow a different path (than Kaguya).

Rikudou Sennin was the one who opened the door to a new path.

 

[adeshina365]

Except Sasuke is largely incompatible with the Rin'negan as that literally reverts his entire fighting style. And what finesse? It's the opposite of finesse. It offers raw destructive power. Limbo Hengoku, Chibaku Tensei, Chou Shinra Tensei etc. All things that Naruto would benefit from. Sasuke couldn't use his eyes simultaneously and would lose the massive benefit of using Amaterasu as a basis for his fighting style (it emanates from his Mangekyou and as such, is not compatible with the Rin'negan).

That's why I proposed the following for Sasuke's power:

1. Larger Perfect Susano'o than Madara's - Counteracts Naruto's superior destructive capability
2. Dragon Sage Mode - Makes his techniques far more potent and larger; imagine an Enton Tsunami. Also gives him the perception needed to combat Naruto's speed.
3. Elder Son's Dojutsu - Any kind of abilities can be introduced to combat the Rin'negan and would be good writing by Kishi if he writes that in to the fight against Madara which would translate over to his fight against Naruto (and there is the possibility of him awakening a new EMS technique through the ESD that would be hax on all levels)

Yata and Totsuka are up in the air as well. I'd hate for Sasuke to get the Rin'negan. I like Sasuke as a Pure Uchiha. I want him to show exactly what the Uchiha clan can offer, not become a clone of Madara.​

First of all, I don't believe that Sasuke will awaken the Rinnegan.

Those Rinnegan abilities that you cite as being "raw destructive power" aren't quite so. You have to remember that the usage of those jutsu will vary significantly based on the amount of chakra that go into them. The examples you mention are simply the largest scale usages of the jutsu that are seemingly (as far as we as readers know) possible. Those techniques are all going to be available on a smaller scale; the same applies to even basic elemental ninjutsu. The largest scale implementations of these techniques can't be used as general measuring rods.

Some will see my logic as also applying to attacks like Bijuu Dama, but this isn't the case. The difference being that the utility of those jutsu is solely dependent on their ability to deal large explosive damage. Attacks like Rinbo Hengoku were used by Madara to stun the Bijuu before capturing them; even on a smaller scale, this technique will achieve its desired effect. The technique that Madara used to "freeze" Sasuke is how I see the Rinnegan's focus.....

The Rinnegan has placed a focus on controlling gravity through Preta path. Advanced manipulations such as this are definitely in Sasuke's realm (not saying that he will acquire a Rinnegan). I'd even go as far as to say that Onmyoudon would be a sensible power-up for Sasuke; it's use is quite similar to that of Raiton and Sasuke's newly acquired Enton: Kagutsuchi. Manipulation in this manner is rather uncharacteristic of Naruto.

Now to analyze the powers that you've proposed for Sasuke:

1. Larger Perfect Susanoo than Madara's:

I see this as being rather unnecessary. As I said previously, Sasuke depends much more on "hax" than he does on raw power. I see any Susanoo larger than the one that Madara currently employs as being redundant. This isn't to say that Sasuke's Susanoo won't be more developed than Madara's; that will happen through the further implementation of Kagutsuchi.

2. Dragon Sage Mode:

I don't think the usage of Senjutsu that Sasuke will be using will be of an identical nature to that exhibited by Kabuto. We as readers are aware that Kabuto wanted Sasuke for the same reasons as Orochimaru, so that he could learn the "unaltered truth about Ninjutsu". Sasuke's Sharingan and the capability of his body to release Senjutsu chakra were essential pillars to that. I think that the truth that Kabuto yearned for will pay a role in the events that are to unfold.

3. Elder Son's Doujutsu:

I would also like for this Doujutsu to be real, but for the time being I'm playing it safe and simply referring to the Doujutsu of a Senjutsu using Sasuke as a "Sage EMS".

Overall I think the focus of Sasuke's future power-ups will still definitely be on "hax" and finesse. This was shown when Naruto launched a Bijuu bomb against Juubito, but Sasuke replied with a Susanoo arrow. We all know that the latter doesn't compare in terms of destructive power, but this doesn't matter since Sasuke's attack was meant to apply a smaller force, but on a smaller surface area.

 

[Flawž]

I agree completely. I also believed That naruto would Inherit Rikudo's will and Become a psuedo Juubi Jinchuuriki.

For Sasuke, I reckon he would be getting Elder Son's Doujutsu with Yata mirror and Totsuka blade.

Great theory.

 

[Transcendence]

I understand that Naruto doesn't have to be the parallel to the younger son, but I find rather strange that the Younger son has been losing spotlight all this time.



The Younger son was the Yang and the Elder son the Yin in their ideals, so I don't understand that the Elder Son could be the opposite to Rikudou in the current context.

I don't find that Rikudou is someone who shares the same vision as the younger son, I see him more as someone that gave the chance to follow a different path (than Kaguya).

Rikudou Sennin was the one who opened the door to a new path.

It's still a relative balance. Rikudou's ideals is about the system and the Bijuu's and sharing his feelings through his chakra (Naruto). The Elder Son opposed his brother and by extension his fathers choice because he wasn't chosen and he believed power was the path to peace. This mirrors Sasuke's wanting to change the system by eliminating the Bijuu's in order to impose radical change.
​

First of all, I don't believe that Sasuke will awaken the Rinnegan.

Those Rinnegan abilities that you cite as being "raw destructive power" aren't quite so. You have to remember that the usage of those jutsu will vary significantly based on the amount of chakra that go into them. The examples you mention are simply the largest scale usages of the jutsu that are seemingly (as far as we as readers know) possible. Those techniques are all going to be available on a smaller scale; the same applies to even basic elemental ninjutsu. The largest scale implementations of these techniques can't be used as general measuring rods.

Some will see my logic as also applying to attacks like Bijuu Dama, but this isn't the case. The difference being that the utility of those jutsu is solely dependent on their ability to deal large explosive damage. Attacks like Rinbo Hengoku were used by Madara to stun the Bijuu before capturing them; even on a smaller scale, this technique will achieve its desired effect. The technique that Madara used to "freeze" Sasuke is how I see the Rinnegan's focus.....

The Rinnegan has placed a focus on controlling gravity through Preta path. Advanced manipulations such as this are definitely in Sasuke's realm (not saying that he will acquire a Rinnegan). I'd even go as far as to say that Onmyoudon would be a sensible power-up for Sasuke; it's use is quite similar to that of Raiton and Sasuke's newly acquired Enton: Kagutsuchi. Manipulation in this manner is rather uncharacteristic of Naruto.

Now to analyze the powers that you've proposed for Sasuke:

1. Larger Perfect Susanoo than Madara's:

I see this as being rather unnecessary. As I said previously, Sasuke depends much more on "hax" than he does on raw power. I see any Susanoo larger than the one that Madara currently employs as being redundant. This isn't to say that Sasuke's Susanoo won't be more developed than Madara's; that will happen through the further implementation of Kagutsuchi.

2. Dragon Sage Mode:

I don't think the usage of Senjutsu that Sasuke will be using will be of an identical nature to that exhibited by Kabuto. We as readers are aware that Kabuto wanted Sasuke for the same reasons as Orochimaru, so that he could learn the "unaltered truth about Ninjutsu". Sasuke's Sharingan and the capability of his body to release Senjutsu chakra were essential pillars to that. I think that the truth that Kabuto yearned for will pay a role in the events that are to unfold.

3. Elder Son's Doujutsu:

I would also like for this Doujutsu to be real, but for the time being I'm playing it safe and simply referring to the Doujutsu of a Senjutsu using Sasuke as a "Sage EMS".

1. The chakra usage is precisely why Naruto would suit it. Massive reserves, and that mirroring Hagoromo (including his overall design in his mode) are suited to the Rin'negan and it's taxing moves. I agree; they are or will be available on a smaller scale, but Naruto and Sasuke's battle will be anything but small; it will most likely put Madara and Hashirama's fight to utter shame in terms of destruction to the environment.

Regarding Rinbo Hengoku; did you see the scale and potency of that jutsu? It was obscene. It had the power to knock back ALL NINE BIJUU simultaneously. This is completely in line with Naruto's destructive prowess. The freezing technique Madara used is something that has yet to be named or expanded upon. I will wait for full confirmation that it was even a Rin'negan technique (although it most likely is).

That is the Deva Path, not Preta Path, and that isn't the sole ability of the Rin'negan. The only seemingly small scale ability of the Rin'negan's Deva Path is Bansho Tenin. Beyond that there is Shinra Tensei (enough to knock back three massive boss toads), Chou Shinra Tensei (Village Buster), Chibaku Tensei and or Rinbo Hengoku. All massive scale. Naruto's manipulation of purely chakra and fitting it to each Shinobi's chakra signature is characteristic of him, so I don't see why you said that.

Sasuke:

That was just my train of thought. If he were to get a Susano'o even larger that would be extra. A Perfect Susano'o on Madara's scale fixated with Enton all around (Sword, arrows, armor etc.) is far above Madara and the possibility of the Yata Mirror and Totsuka blade may happen as well. Could you imagine a Totsuka Blade laced with Enton?

I didn't say it would be identical to Kabuto's. Sasuke's will probably be more advanced because he won't have to resort to body modifications like Kabuto did, and he is far more powerful than Kabuto or Naruto from base, so it would have an even larger effect on him regarding the scale of his jutsu (think of Hashirama and how powerful he is in base; Sennin Modo makes him beyond basically everyone besides two people who needed the Juubi's chakra to surpass him). We agree on this though, so there isn't much to discuss here.

It pretty much has to be real. It can't be the Rin'negan as the Elder Son lacked is brothers DNA. It is a standalone Dojutsu, we just have to see if Kishimoto decides to represent it through Sasuke.​

 

[rollin]

if the rinnegan,the sage's eyes,minus the yang is the elder son's doujutsu(even though i think it's the first ems)
what would be the sage's body, minus the yin chakra, make the sage's body look like

 

[adeshina365]

1. The chakra usage is precisely why Naruto would suit it. Massive reserves, and that mirroring Hagoromo (including his overall design in his mode) are suited to the Rin'negan and it's taxing moves. I agree; they are or will be available on a smaller scale, but Naruto and Sasuke's battle will be anything but small; it will most likely put Madara and Hashirama's fight to utter shame in terms of destruction to the environment.

Regarding Rinbo Hengoku; did you see the scale and potency of that jutsu? It was obscene. It had the power to knock back ALL NINE BIJUU simultaneously. This is completely in line with Naruto's destructive prowess. The freezing technique Madara used is something that has yet to be named or expanded upon. I will wait for full confirmation that it was even a Rin'negan technique (although it most likely is).

That is the Deva Path, not Preta Path, and that isn't the sole ability of the Rin'negan. The only seemingly small scale ability of the Rin'negan's Deva Path is Bansho Tenin. Beyond that there is Shinra Tensei (enough to knock back three massive boss toads), Chou Shinra Tensei (Village Buster), Chibaku Tensei and or Rinbo Hengoku. All massive scale. Naruto's manipulation of purely chakra and fitting it to each Shinobi's chakra signature is characteristic of him, so I don't see why you said that. ​

I would love to argue this more, but I already tell that neither of us will shift from our current positions; instead I'll focus on a few things:

I feel like you're focusing too much on the scale of the jutsu mentioned and not enough on the nature of the jutsu. The jutsu in question all involve gravity control, a type of manipulation which I believe is incredibly uncharacteristic of Naruto. Naruto's moves in comparison are of a more simplistic nature. In contrast to Naruto, Sasuke uses complex maneuvers with complex manipulations (think of Sasuke's uses of Raiton and Enton). You're correct about the Rinnegan involving more than Deva* path. It also involves paths such as human path which aren't even remotely reminiscent of Naruto's fighting style.

Overall I feel like Naruto obtaining visual prowess would be rather unfitting.

Sasuke:

That was just my train of thought. If he were to get a Susano'o even larger that would be extra. A Perfect Susano'o on Madara's scale fixated with Enton all around (Sword, arrows, armor etc.) is far above Madara and the possibility of the Yata Mirror and Totsuka blade may happen as well. Could you imagine a Totsuka Blade laced with Enton?

I didn't say it would be identical to Kabuto's. Sasuke's will probably be more advanced because he won't have to resort to body modifications like Kabuto did, and he is far more powerful than Kabuto or Naruto from base, so it would have an even larger effect on him regarding the scale of his jutsu (think of Hashirama and how powerful he is in base; Sennin Modo makes him beyond basically everyone besides two people who needed the Juubi's chakra to surpass him). We agree on this though, so there isn't much to discuss here.

It pretty much has to be real. It can't be the Rin'negan as the Elder Son lacked is brothers DNA. It is a standalone Dojutsu, we just have to see if Kishimoto decides to represent it through Sasuke.​

I agree with your thoughts here on the first two points, but on the third I don't think we can be certain that Kishimoto wouldn't have simply decided during some point to have the Elder Son's eyes having a Kaleidoscope design instead of the spiral which is seen on literally one panel in the manga.

On a more general note, I would like to reemphasize how I think that it's important to remember how Sasuke's focus will be on "hax" and finesse as always and how Naruto's will be on brute force. Sasuke really doesn't need more destructive capabilities. Kishimoto designed Sasuke's current move-set to mirror that of Hebi Sasuke's (Raiton vs. Enton). Sasuke's improvements need to focus on that kind of finesse.

Personally I believe that Izanagi and Izanami will play a role in the events to come. Itachi in a sense "passed the torch" onto Sasuke with regards to those two Doujutsu. There collective use may yield a new jutsu.

 

[Transcendence]

I would love to argue this more, but I already tell that neither of us will shift from our current positions; instead I'll focus on a few things:

I feel like you're focusing too much on the scale of the jutsu mentioned and not enough on the nature of the jutsu. The jutsu in question all involve gravity control, a type of manipulation which I believe is incredibly uncharacteristic of Naruto. Naruto's moves in comparison are of a more simplistic nature. In contrast to Naruto, Sasuke uses complex maneuvers with complex manipulations (think of Sasuke's uses of Raiton and Enton). You're correct about the Rinnegan involving more than Deva* path. It also involves paths such as human path which aren't even remotely reminiscent of Naruto's fighting style.

Overall I feel like Naruto obtaining visual prowess would be rather unfitting.



I agree with your thoughts here on the first two points, but on the third I don't think we can be certain that Kishimoto wouldn't have simply decided during some point to have the Elder Son's eyes having a Kaleidoscope design instead of the spiral which is seen on literally one panel in the manga.

On a more general note, I would like to reemphasize how I think that it's important to remember how Sasuke's focus will be on "hax" and finesse as always and how Naruto's will be on brute force. Sasuke really doesn't need more destructive capabilities. Kishimoto designed Sasuke's current move-set to mirror that of Hebi Sasuke's (Raiton vs. Enton). Sasuke's improvements need to focus on the small-scale IMO.

Personally I believe that Izanagi and Izanami will play a role in the events to come. Itachi in a sense "passed the torch" onto Sasuke with regards to those two Doujutsu. There collective use may yield a new jutsu.

I will post more argumentation tomorrow morning as I'm going to bed soon. But the visual prowess you speak doesn't really apply. Him obtaining visual prowess in the purest sense doesn't have to do with conventional Dojutsu. The Rin'negan is too offensively varied to be regarded purely as visual prowess. It doesn't offer things like Pre-cognition, insight on the level of the Sharingan or Byakugan, nor a superior field of vision (only through multiple manipulated entities does it actually, but that requires preparation). ​

 

[adeshina365]

I will post more argumentation tomorrow morning as I'm going to bed soon. But the visual prowess you speak doesn't really apply. Him obtaining visual prowess in the purest sense doesn't have to do with conventional Dojutsu. The Rin'negan is too offensively varied to be regarded purely as visual prowess. It doesn't offer things like Pre-cognition, insight on the level of the Sharingan or Byakugan, nor a superior field of vision (only through multiple manipulated entities does it actually, but that requires preparation). ​

That's only the case for Nagato's usage of the Rinnegan. Nagato was unable to access any "Sharingan components" even though he had Madara's eyes. Madara has had no problem using Susanoo, or telling clones from originals even with his Rinnegan active.

The Rinnegan has a massive Yin component which rivals the Eternal Mangekyou, Naruto would be acquiring a level of visual prowess that even other MS wielding Uchiha never achieved.

Anyways, we'll likely find out if you're right or wrong next week.