SM Jiraiya vs Kages + Bodyguards

[Ghost in the Shell]

Jiraiya isn't beating anyone here except for Kiri and Iwa.

How is team Danzo and Gaara winning?

 

[KingHashirama]

Just to clarify here, Jiraiya was still the top candidate for Hokage even when Orochimaru was still in the Leaf.

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Their only good attack is Gama Rinsho?

lololol

Guess we'll just ignore Zessenzan, Zessenbaku, Frog Kata/their SM strength, Kawazu Naki and their elemental abilities. Not to mention they too can summon any toad they want to from Myoboku.

I might go over each of these matchups later, don't feel like it right now.

@Bold, mayfly buddy.

And your boy Jiraiya was only considered because of Orochimaru's twisted ideology:

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Even the people in the village were expecting it to be Orochimaru, not Jiraiya... so yea.

 

[EliteKakashi]

@Bold, mayfly buddy.

And your boy Jiraiya was only considered because of Orochimaru's twisted ideology:

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Even the people in the village were expecting it to be Orochimaru, not Jiraiya... so yea.

I wasn't responding to your Zetsu comment. I was responding to your "only good skill comment".

And that statement means nothing about Jiraiya. Tsunade clearly states "The Third ALWAYS wanted you to succeed him".

Meaning at no point was he not the person that Hiruzen wanted to succeed him.

 

[KingHashirama]

I wasn't responding to your Zetsu comment. I was responding to your "only good skill comment".

And that statement means nothing about Jiraiya. Tsunade clearly states "The Third ALWAYS wanted you to succeed him".

Meaning at no point was he not the person that Hiruzen wanted to succeed him.

Tsunade had been gone from the village (Making her opinion on the matter even less credible).. and she was going for dan to be Hokage.. she stated her opinion... As I said, Hiruzen wanted him to succeed because Orochimaru's ideals were wrong.

Tsunade can't read minds.. she doesn't know Hiruzen's through process..

 

[EliteKakashi]

Tsunade had been gone from the village.. and she was going for dan to be Hokage.. she stated her opinion... As I said, Hiruzen wanted him to succeed because Orochimaru's ideals were wrong.

Tsunade can't read minds.. she doesn't know Hiruzen's through process..

Tsunade being gone from the village only amplifies the statement, meaning that Hiruzen wanted Jiraiya to succeed him even before Orochimaru's "ideals" were known about.

And it's very possible that Hiruzen asked Jiraiya and he turned it down, or said that when the time came for him to retire, he wanted Jiraiya to succeed him.

Anyway, it's not needed to argue strength. Jiraiya's beyond being powerful enough to be hokage. It could be argued that if he ever were hokage, he would have been 2nd only to Hashirama in power.

Well..3rd to Naruto and Hashirama counting chapter 700.

 

[KingHashirama]

Tsunade being gone from the village only amplifies the statement, meaning that Hiruzen wanted Jiraiya to succeed him even before Orochimaru's "ideals" were known about.

And it's very possible that Hiruzen asked Jiraiya and he turned it down, or said that when the time came for him to retire, he wanted Jiraiya to succeed him.

Anyway, it's not needed to argue strength. Jiraiya's beyond being powerful enough to be hokage. It could be argued that if he ever were hokage, he would have been 2nd only to Hashirama in power.

Well..3rd to Naruto and Hashirama counting chapter 700.

- His ideals were already known before she left tho.. lol. Look at his reactions to Nawaki's death

- He probably did, thats the only way Minato would've been able to become Hokage.

- Dude.. Tobirama and Hiruzen are superior..... lol. You are confusing the lack of showcasing with the lack of prowess and achievements. Jiraiya doesn't have the base power that rivals Hiruzen or Tobirama.

- Didn't he lose to Orochimaru in their battle tho? and then Jiraiya got SM.. and now Orochimaru got a Zetsu body.

 

[EliteKakashi]

- His ideals were already known before she left tho.. lol. Look at his reactions to Nawaki's death

Wut? Unless my memory of the timeline is incorrect, she left after Dan died which was during the 2nd war..a war Orochimaru assisted them in.

Not sure what his reaction to Nawaki's death matters. All it meant was he didn't have any emotional connections. That doesn't stop him from becoming Hokage. Hashirama wanted Madara to be the 2nd Hokage, and when that didn't work out, Tobirama was his choice, who while maybe not as "heartless" as Orochimaru, isn't far off. He did develop Edo Tensei and pretty much ruin the Uchiha clan.

- Dude.. Tobirama and Hiruzen are superior..... lol. You are confusing the lack of showcasing with the lack of prowess and achievements. Jiraiya doesn't have the base power that rivals Hiruzen or Tobirama.

Hiruzen is the only one who has anything to hold over Jiraiya, and that's thanks to his God of Shinobi title. Otherwise, Jiraiya can match both of them in hype. Obito stated that he wasn't surprised that Jiraiya gave Pain, who he considered invincible, trouble. Black Zetsu stated the same. Kisame showed the closest thing to fear we've seen from him in regards to Jiraiya. Nagato stated if he knew the secret, Jiraiya would have beat him. He was wanted to be hokage by both Hiruzen and the Elders..

Jiraiya is lacking in no regards in comparison to either Tobirama or Hiruzen. At all 3's most powerful, Jiraiya can easily be argued as superior.

- Didn't he lose to Orochimaru in their battle tho? and then Jiraiya got SM.. and now Orochimaru got a Zetsu body.

What battle? If you're referencing the flashback we were shown at the end of part 1, I guess he lost? I dunno. We only saw a glimpse of it, and as you said, Jiraiya either didn't have SM or just simply didn't use it. Didn't seem like a fight that either one went all out in, cause if they had, and Jiraiya did lose, there's no reason for Orochimaru to have not killed him.

 

[ARGUS]

Jiraiya spanks team mist, beats team sand and team leaf mid diff,
whilst he loses to team rock and team cloud

 

[KingHashirama]

Wut? Unless my memory of the timeline is incorrect, she left after Dan died which was during the 2nd war..a war Orochimaru assisted them in.

Not sure what his reaction to Nawaki's death matters. All it meant was he didn't have any emotional connections. That doesn't stop him from becoming Hokage. Hashirama wanted Madara to be the 2nd Hokage, and when that didn't work out, Tobirama was his choice, who while maybe not as "heartless" as Orochimaru, isn't far off. He did develop Edo Tensei and pretty much ruin the Uchiha clan.



Hiruzen is the only one who has anything to hold over Jiraiya, and that's thanks to his God of Shinobi title. Otherwise, Jiraiya can match both of them in hype. Obito stated that he wasn't surprised that Jiraiya gave Pain, who he considered invincible, trouble. Black Zetsu stated the same. Kisame showed the closest thing to fear we've seen from him in regards to Jiraiya. Nagato stated if he knew the secret, Jiraiya would have beat him. He was wanted to be hokage by both Hiruzen and the Elders..

Jiraiya is lacking in no regards in comparison to either Tobirama or Hiruzen. At all 3's most powerful, Jiraiya can easily be argued as superior.



What battle? If you're referencing the flashback we were shown at the end of part 1, I guess he lost? I dunno. We only saw a glimpse of it, and as you said, Jiraiya either didn't have SM or just simply didn't use it. Didn't seem like a fight that either one went all out in, cause if they had, and Jiraiya did lose, there's no reason for Orochimaru to have not killed him.

- His thinking was already shown to be not good.. look at what he was saying to the orphan kids (pain) and when Nawaki died. Yes Jiraiya had emotion, he could feel for people... come on now man. Jiraiya's thinking is much more kinder and likeable than Orochimaru's.

- How does he match both of them in hype, when hes not even superior to Tsunade in hype.. lol. Jiraiya has panel time of a long 1 vs 1 the others don't.

- Yea he is.. His chakra is inferior to Hiruzen and Tobirama's... Hiruzen and Tobirama's chakra pressure is immensily superior to Jiraiya's.. their skills are also superior. THere is nothing Jiraiya has on Tobirama even from the things they have shown.

- Or he just showed pitty for his old teammate?

 

[EliteKakashi]

- His thinking was already shown to be not good.. look at what he was saying to the orphan kids (pain) and when Nawaki died. Yes Jiraiya had emotion, he could feel for people... come on now man. Jiraiya's thinking is much more kinder and likeable than Orochimaru's.

I never said Jiraiya's thinking wasn't kinder. And what Orochimaru said to do was actually more sensible than what Jiraiya did in that scenario. The most sensible thing to do would have been they just take them back to Konoha..why they didn't do that I'll never know.

- How does he match both of them in hype, when hes not even superior to Tsunade in hype.. lol. Jiraiya has panel time of a long 1 vs 1 the others don't.

I just listed how he does. He has hype on similar levels to them. Again, Hiruzen has an argument to be placed above him in the hype regard thanks to people viewing him as a God of Shinobi, but Tobirama? Nah.

And Jiraiya's panel time shows us he would rank as one of the most powerful kage in Naruto history.

- Yea he is.. His chakra is inferior to Hiruzen and Tobirama's... Hiruzen and Tobirama's chakra pressure is immensily superior to Jiraiya's.. their skills are also superior. THere is nothing Jiraiya has on Tobirama even from the things they have shown.

What has Tobirama's chakra shown to do makes his "chakra pressure" immensely superior? Hiruzen cracked tile with his, which is cool I guess cause the only other person(my memory may be failing me there though) shown to do that is Hashirama, but I'm not exactly sure how or why that makes his superior.

Jiraiya had insane amounts of chakra. You have to to be able to use Sage Mode.

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- Or he just showed pitty for his old teammate?

Possibly so. Dunno why he would, but can't really argue one way or the other given we have no context of the fight.

 

[Icelerate]

Round 2: Jiraiya wins med diff max.

- Trollkage-sama was countering Gaara's sand shields and restraints simply by secreting oil from his body, Bunta can spit out large quantities and make Gaara's sand null. It's even worse for Gaara if the location isn't a desert. The quantity and quality of his gourd sand is high, but not enough to shield them from Senpō: Goemon, large scale katons, multiple Ōdama and maybe a Chō Ōdama Rasengan, all powered up by senjutsu chakra.

Troll kage could escape sand coffin by secreting sand from his body. If the same happens to Jiraiya or his toads, they won't be able to counter it because they can only spit it out in one direction, not everywhere on their bodies. Temari blows away Bunta's oil while Gaara can sacrifice a thin layer of sand to avoid getting the rest of his sand destroyed by oil. Sand flight evades Goemon, especially when Temari can slow down its momentum even further. Katon is useless as Gaara has blocked enton. Rasengan is a close range jutsu and the trio specialize in long ranged combat. Furthermore, a large amount of sand should be able to guard against it much like how Gaara guarded against C3 which is far superior to a COR.

- Temari (sorry Ice) and Kankurō are no match here for Jiraiya's firepower. Kiri Kiri Mae's AoE is much smaller than Gamayu Endan, and her other wind techniques get overwhelmed by smaller katons. Kankurō is even worse, Jiraiya can create shadow clones and mow down his puppets with Kebari Senbon and small fire techniques, or maybe even Ma/Pa's tounges and katon/fuuton combo.

Temari isn't using any jutsu when Jiraiya can easily counter with a powerful katon. She'll look for an opportunity when Jiraiya has already used a jutsu or is busy dealing with Gaara's and/or Kankuro's attacks and snipe him. Temari's jutsu execution speed>>>Jiraiya's because making hand seals, inhaling and then exhaling takes longer than merely swinging a fan. The animal path's panda tanked Kebari senbon with ease, it does nothing to Kankuro's puppets especially the ones with the lightweight mechanical shield which tanked iron sand which is far superior. That shield takes care of small fire variants as well or Kankuro uses the flamethrower on Sasori puppet to counter those small fire attacks especially when Temari enhances Kankuro's flamethrower to a much higher level.

Round 3: Jiraiya wins with high difficulty.

- Darui's black raiton and ranton are still ninjutsu, which means that they can be stalemated or overpowered by medium scale/large scale katons in conjunction with Ma's fuuton to weaken the lightning. Shee's only function here is as a medic and a sensor; genjutsu is a non factor in front of sage sensing and the partner method. Even then, Shee won't have enough time to heal anybody with the onslaught of Jiraiya's sage ninjutsu.

This is true but while Jiraiya is dealing with Darui's ninjutsu and Ma and Pa are breaking out of Shee's genjutsu, Ay will blitz and kill him.

- Ay is trouble here I'll admit, with his v2 speed and strength. However, he still has to charge chakra on his feet to use shunshin like he did to dodge Amaterasu. Ma's fuuton dust cloud makes for a good distraction while Jiraiya makes several shadow clones and has them all use a transformation jutsu to make it look like they have Ma and Pa on their shoulders to fake out Kumo. One of the sage trio can also summon another boss toad or toads to attack the Kumo jōnin and distract Ay while Ma an Pa prep the genjutsu, which I think only took half a chapter to prep (can't be THAT long).

This is a 3 on 1, if Jiraiya and Ma/Pa are busy countering Darui's black lightning/laser circus and are momentarily distracted by Shee's genjutsu, how is Jiraiya making a dust cloud and multiple kage bunshins?

Ay's team wins mid difficulty.

Round 4: Jiraiya med difficulty.

- Torune and Fū suffer the same fate as Temari and Kankurō, genjutsu won't work, bugs get burnt to a crisp, Pa's tongue splits Fū in half, fuuton/katon combo end Torune, etc.

Neither Fu nor Torune have genjutsu so I have no idea why you brought that up. Bugs can get burnt to crisp but what if they fly behind Jiraiya? Danzo isn't going to stand there and let his bodyguards get killed off. He can kill himself and immediately respawn to catch Jiraiya offguard and to save his teammates. Fu's Shintenshin jutsu allows him to take control of Gamabunta so Jiraiya's own summons can go against him.

- Baku gets greeted warmly with a nice and simple katon in his mouth. Dissapears several seconds after he gets summoned. Danzō's izanagi spam and his respawn speed could be a problem, but Jiraiya can make shadow clones to cover the his perimiter, and even have them all use a SM enhanced sensing barrier if needed. From there on, nothing Danzō does will go unnoticed, and nothing he has in his arsenal is a match for even base Jiraiya. I assume KA is restricted.

Well susanoo couldn't move inside Baku's suction and Sasuke could use hand seals for katon because he was shielded from the suction by susanoo. Jiraiya has no such defence, he gets killed.

 

[KingHashirama]

I never said Jiraiya's thinking wasn't kinder. And what Orochimaru said to do was actually more sensible than what Jiraiya did in that scenario. The most sensible thing to do would have been they just take them back to Konoha..why they didn't do that I'll never know.



I just listed how he does. He has hype on similar levels to them. Again, Hiruzen has an argument to be placed above him in the hype regard thanks to people viewing him as a God of Shinobi, but Tobirama? Nah.

And Jiraiya's panel time shows us he would rank as one of the most powerful kage in Naruto history.



What has Tobirama's chakra shown to do makes his "chakra pressure" immensely superior? Hiruzen cracked tile with his, which is cool I guess cause the only other person(my memory may be failing me there though) shown to do that is Hashirama, but I'm not exactly sure how or why that makes his superior.

Jiraiya had insane amounts of chakra. You have to to be able to use Sage Mode.

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Possibly so. Dunno why he would, but can't really argue one way or the other given we have no context of the fight.

- Orochimaru said to kill them. Jiraiya gave them alive.

- Tobirama skills near EMS Madara's level... come on thats already a bigger hype. "Best shinobi of konoha" along with his brother, already bigger hype than Jiraiya... Hiruzen became strong enough to attain the god of shinobi title by some.. Jiraiya never got on that prowess.

- Yea, i know he does.. so do most of the elite teir ninja.. like Orochimaru and etc. But so? How that does mean he has chakra reserves the size of the second strongest senju? lol. There are alot of shinobi if they had attempted to learn SM, they would've learned it, Jiraiya's partner Tsunade being one of them.



Chakra pressure determines the natural power of a person. Thats why it was displayed between Tobirama and Hashirama, portrayed to be on "another level" compared to the other hokage. And Tobirama's made Suigetsu melt.. o-o Hiruzen has never shown that kind of pressure.

 

[Ghost in the Shell]

Troll kage could escape sand coffin by secreting sand from his body. If the same happens to Jiraiya or his toads, they won't be able to counter it because they can only spit it out in one direction, not everywhere on their bodies.

Jiraiya has Shima and Fukasaku who can also spit out oil from the directions that Jiraiya and the boss toad aren't facing, and the oil from a boss toad has an especially large AoE and would absolutely destroy Gaara's sand considering that minor amounts of Gengetsu's oil was seeping in and rendering the sand useless. The sage trio will still be able to escape the sand from the direction of where the boss toad spat out his oil anyway.

Temari blows away Bunta's oil while Gaara can sacrifice a thin layer of sand to avoid getting the rest of his sand destroyed by oil.

Temari leaves herself open to attacks from one of the sage trio or Jiraiya's shadow clones if she does that. Bunta can also jump while spitting oil, bypassing the wind attack's AoE and shooting it right at the sand sibilings, who can evade, but Gaara's sand on the ground will still get covered. A thin layer of sand is an understatement when we factor in the amount of oil that Bunta can spit out, and how quickly oil can seep into sand and destroy it.

Sand flight evades Goemon, especially when Temari can slow down its momentum even further. Katon is useless as Gaara has blocked enton. Rasengan is a close range jutsu and the trio specialize in long ranged combat. Furthermore, a large amount of sand should be able to guard against it much like how Gaara guarded against C3 which is far superior to a COR.

No way is Gaara gathering even a semblance of that amount of sand in time when Bunta can just leap to Gaara's altitude while the sage trio prep Goemon, whose AoE surpasses Temari's quick wind jutsus, and instantly unload it onto the sand siblings without warning. Gaara can block Gamayu Endan, but that can be used as a distraction to leave the sand sibilings susceptible to getting a boss toad summoned on top of them after the katon dissipitates while inside they're still inside the shields of sand, or even oil and other attacks from Ma and Pa and Jiraiya's shadow clones. Gaara's mother shield managed to tank a Jōki Bōi explosion, and it's arguable that COR's destructive capacity surpasses it due to its

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, not to mention that this attack keeps moving forward rather than releasing an incredible amount of force at once like Jōki Bōi. I'm speaking about the mother shield b/c no way is Gaara's regular shield of sand tanking that.

Temari isn't using any jutsu when Jiraiya can easily counter with a powerful katon. She'll look for an opportunity when Jiraiya has already used a jutsu or is busy dealing with Gaara's and/or Kankuro's attacks and snipe him.

Temari isn't sniping anything when Ma, Pa, and Jiraiya all have sage sensing and will probably notice the buildup of Temari's chakra before she fires off her attack. There's also Jiraiya's shadow clones, and Ma/Pa themselves who can cover Jiraiya when he uses a jutsu, or when Ma/Pa use a collab tech with Jiraiya.

Temari's jutsu execution speed>>>Jiraiya's because making hand seals, inhaling and then exhaling takes longer than merely swinging a fan.

Ok, but Jiraiya actually doesn't need hand seals to fire off his katons [

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]-[

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]-[

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]. Jiraiya can fire off his katon, powered up by Pa's fuuton of Bunta's oil before Temari's jutsu reaches them and overwhelm her technique.

The animal path's panda tanked Kebari senbon with ease, it does nothing to Kankuro's puppets especially the ones with the lightweight mechanical shield which tanked iron sand which is far superior. That shield takes care of small fire variants as well or Kankuro uses the flamethrower on Sasori puppet to counter those small fire attacks especially when Temari enhances Kankuro's flamethrower to a much higher level.

Pretty sure that the Panda > Kankuro's puppets in durability considering that the Panda's only utility is to be a shield, and the fact that the puppets are still made mostly of wood. The senbons are enhanced by senjutsu, and are extremely fast, don't see how Satetsu Shigure is far superior to senjutsu enhanced KS. Kankurō's only utility here is an attempt at overwhelming Jiraiya by having his puppets attack Jiraiya from mid to short distance from different angles, and that's easily countered by shadow clones or Ma and Pa. Ranjishigami no Jutsu can also be used here to crush the puppets or sever the chakra strings. Sage Katon > Sasori's flamethrower, and Pa can also enhance Ma's or the shadow clones katon with his own fuuton to ramp it up to an even higher level than Sasori's flames enhanced by Temari's fuuton.

This is true but while Jiraiya is dealing with Darui's ninjutsu and Ma and Pa are breaking out of Shee's genjutsu, Ay will blitz and kill him. This is a 3 on 1, if Jiraiya and Ma/Pa are busy countering Darui's black lightning/laser circus and are momentarily distracted by Shee's genjutsu, how is Jiraiya making a dust cloud and multiple kage bunshins? Ay's team wins mid difficulty.

Ma can use the fuuton cloud right off the bat and give Jiraiya time to make clones. Genjutsu would immediately be noticed via sage sensing and released via Kai, not much time wasted in that. Shadow clones can deal with Kumo's attacks. You're also forgetting about Senpō Kawazu Naki, which can freeze Kumo from making attacks, buying Jiraiya even more time to set up his clones and summons. This is more debatable and it's a high diff fight either way IMO, but for now I think Jiraiya wins.

Btw, Jiraiya can't be considered as a lone shinobi in Sage Mode, that'd be an underestimation of the sage toads' skills

Neither Fu nor Torune have genjutsu so I have no idea why you brought that up. Bugs can get burnt to crisp but what if they fly behind Jiraiya? Danzo isn't going to stand there and let his bodyguards get killed off. He can kill himself and immediately respawn to catch Jiraiya offguard and to save his teammates. Fu's Shintenshin jutsu allows him to take control of Gamabunta so Jiraiya's own summons can go against him.

My bad about the genjutsu. Still doesn't change my point though, katon's AoE surpasses the bugs, sage sensing picks out any bug still alive and Ma kills them with her katon, and Fū needs to have a clear shot at Bunta to use Shitenshin no Jutsu, and the sage trio can sense this technique before it's executed and counter accordingly. Tbh I see both of the bodyguards getting one shotted by a giant katon, forcing Danzō to respawn, and Jiraiya's shadow clone + barrier perimiter can be quickly set up before Jiraiya fires off his katon with Bunta.

Well susanoo couldn't move inside Baku's suction and Sasuke could use hand seals for katon because he was shielded from the suction by susanoo. Jiraiya has no such defence, he gets killed.

Jiraiya doesn't need hand seals to use katon, and Baku can be attacked even before he opens his mouth and starts inhaling. Or Pa can slice him with Fighting Tongue Slash.

 

[awesomeseimei]

Danzo isn't going to stand there and let his bodyguards get killed off.

Sorry to butt in, but isn't that precisely what he did against Obito?

 

[EliteKakashi]

Apologies on taking so long to respond.

- Orochimaru said to kill them. Jiraiya gave them alive.

Yes? I'm not sure how this is responding to what I said. Orochimaru's idea of killing them is more sensible than what Jiraiya did.

- Tobirama skills near EMS Madara's level... come on thats already a bigger hype. "Best shinobi of konoha" along with his brother, already bigger hype than Jiraiya... Hiruzen became strong enough to attain the god of shinobi title by some.. Jiraiya never got on that prowess.

When was Tobirama stated to be near EMS Madara's level? And best shinobi of Konoha would be interesting if we knew anything about his era. We know little to nothing about the time Tobirama reigned as hokage in Konoha. I mean I don't doubt that he was the best, but what is he being compared to? Young Hiruzen and Danzo, if my memory serves me correctly, are the two most notable shinobi that we know the names of from that era, in Konoha.

One fight we do know about with Tobirama is he fought along side the 2nd Raikage and still almost died fighting Kin&Gin. Now I'm not going to hold that too much against him, cause we don't know the context of the fight, but these were guys that Darui was able to fight and beat.

Jiraiya was stated by both Black Zetsu and Obito to be good enough to give an invincible fighter(well, they considered him as such) a lot of trouble. Nagato admitted inferiority without the secret. I dunno what else is needed to prove how great he is.

- Yea, i know he does.. so do most of the elite teir ninja.. like Orochimaru and etc. But so? How that does mean he has chakra reserves the size of the second strongest senju? lol. There are alot of shinobi if they had attempted to learn SM, they would've learned it, Jiraiya's partner Tsunade being one of them.

I have no idea what Tobirama's chakra reserves were, nor am I sure it matters. Both have enormous chakra reserves. I'm not trying to argue one superior to the other, just trying to show that Jiraiya had similar chakra levels.

And a lot of shinobi could have learned SM? That's probably pushing it. Tsunade possibly could have, but we'll never know.

Chakra pressure determines the natural power of a person. Thats why it was displayed between Tobirama and Hashirama, portrayed to be on "another level" compared to the other hokage. And Tobirama's made Suigetsu melt.. o-o Hiruzen has never shown that kind of pressure.

Natural power of a person? Not even sure what you mean by that, and do you have a source for it? There was nothing displayed by Tobirama. He threatened Sasuke then Hashirama put him in his place. Hashirama is the only one of those 4 hokage "on another level".

Hiruzen's never threatened to kill someone/tried to intimidate them either. It's not his personality. Suigetsu is a scaredy cat anyway. He was scared to death of Orochimaru coming out of Kabuto.

Anyway, I'm not sure what the point of this debate is..Jiraiya is easily strong enough to be hokage, he's strong enough to be argued above the hokages not named Naruto and Hashirama(I'm not saying he definitely is, I'm simply saying he's got his argument to be). If you view Tobirama and Hiruzen above him, it's whatever, it's fine with me. My point is he's at least on the same level as they are when he's in SM, I think that's an extremely fair statement, given SM Jiraiya has shown some of the more OP abilities in the manga.

I'll try and give my answer to each one of these fights later tonight.

 

[Icelerate]

Jiraiya has Shima and Fukasaku who can also spit out oil from the directions that Jiraiya and the boss toad aren't facing, and the oil from a boss toad has an especially large AoE and would absolutely destroy Gaara's sand considering that minor amounts of Gengetsu's oil was seeping in and rendering the sand useless. The sage trio will still be able to escape the sand from the direction of where the boss toad spat out his oil anyway.

Jiraiya is facing the same direction as Ma and Pa. Furthermore, the oil that 2nd Mizukage uses is different from the one Jiraiya uses so Jiraiya's won't be as effective as explained by Forbidden Technique. Furthermore, Gaara can still take off limbs or use sand binding on Jiraiya or his summons' necks. Even if the sage trio can escape the sand, it gives enough time for Kankuro and Temari to do lethal damage.

Ah, the oil. Let me begin by stating that the "oil" that was stated to be Gaaras weakness, and the oil that Jiraiya uses ,are not the exact same substance. Allow me to explain.

• Trollkages Oil
  
  The Trollkages oil, that Gaara has mentioned to seep through his sand and destroy it, isn't exactly just oil. It is a mixture of water and oil. This is proven when it was referred to as a "
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  " thus implying that it isn't just oil, but water as well. This is confirmed to be the case, when Onoki was explaining the mechanics of Joki Boy. He mentioned that the Mizukages body contains
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  .
  
  
• Jiraiyas Oil
  
  Now, the substance that Jiraiya uses is pure oil. A
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  and very flammable substance.
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The difference between the two, is that the oily water the Mizukage uses is very slick and slippery. Reason why Gaara noted it to seep threw his sand. While in contact with the sand, the watery oil turned it into a gooey, slimy,

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. Jiraiyas oil lacks the watery substance to make is slick and slippery in order for it seep threw Gaaras sand as effectively.

So let's move on.

Temari leaves herself open to attacks from one of the sage trio or Jiraiya's shadow clones if she does that. Bunta can also jump while spitting oil, bypassing the wind attack's AoE and shooting it right at the sand sibilings, who can evade, but Gaara's sand on the ground will still get covered. A thin layer of sand is an understatement when we factor in the amount of oil that Bunta can spit out, and how quickly oil can seep into sand and destroy it.

The whole point is that Gaara's sand remains intact so either him or Kankuro can watch over her if she is left open. If the oil is shot before he jumps, then sure he may be able to get out of the AoE of Temari's fuuton, otherwise if he shoots it after jumping, he doesn't. My point about the thin layer of sand is that the oil's momentum will halt after colliding with the thin sand wall thus allowing

No way is Gaara gathering even a semblance of that amount of sand in time when Bunta can just leap to Gaara's altitude while the sage trio prep Goemon, whose AoE surpasses Temari's quick wind jutsus, and instantly unload it onto the sand siblings without warning. Gaara can block Gamayu Endan, but that can be used as a distraction to leave the sand sibilings susceptible to getting a boss toad summoned on top of them after the katon dissipitates while inside they're still inside the shields of sand, or even oil and other attacks from Ma and Pa and Jiraiya's shadow clones. Gaara's mother shield managed to tank a Jōki Bōi explosion, and it's arguable that COR's destructive capacity surpasses it due to its

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, not to mention that this attack keeps moving forward rather than releasing an incredible amount of force at once like Jōki Bōi. I'm speaking about the mother shield b/c no way is Gaara's regular shield of sand tanking that.

The AoE of Goemon surpassing Temari's fuuton is irrelevant as Temari's wind covers enough area to blow away the part of Goemon that does have a chance of hitting the Sand Siblings. How is Bunta going to leap forward when Gaara can grab and crush his limbs with giant sand arms? If he does, Kankuro and Temari make quick work of a midair Bunta before he comes close. Even once he comes close, Gaara could just hover away whereas Bunta in midair can't. A boss toad is only getting summoned on top of them if Jiraiya is above them which is a position where he won't be able to get to. COR is only useful if Jiraiya can get close but he is up against three long ranged fighters.

Temari isn't sniping anything when Ma, Pa, and Jiraiya all have sage sensing and will probably notice the buildup of Temari's chakra before she fires off her attack. There's also Jiraiya's shadow clones, and Ma/Pa themselves who can cover Jiraiya when he uses a jutsu, or when Ma/Pa use a collab tech with Jiraiya.

Sensing is irrelevant when Jiraiya will have his hands full. Shadow clones can help as stalling tactics but they can be taken out with sand drizzle from the sky.

Ok, but Jiraiya actually doesn't need hand seals to fire off his katons [

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]-[

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]-[

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]. Jiraiya can fire off his katon, powered up by Pa's fuuton of Bunta's oil before Temari's jutsu reaches them and overwhelm her technique.

Well the Naruto Wiki says it does need hand seals for (

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) and (

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). Appreantly no handseals are required for (

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) so I'll give you that. However, just because hand seals aren't shown doesn't mean they weren't used. Though my point above still stands.

Pretty sure that the Panda > Kankuro's puppets in durability considering that the Panda's only utility is to be a shield, and the fact that the puppets are still made mostly of wood. The senbons are enhanced by senjutsu, and are extremely fast, don't see how Satetsu Shigure is far superior to senjutsu enhanced KS. Kankurō's only utility here is an attempt at overwhelming Jiraiya by having his puppets attack Jiraiya from mid to short distance from different angles, and that's easily countered by shadow clones or Ma and Pa. Ranjishigami no Jutsu can also be used here to crush the puppets or sever the chakra strings. Sage Katon > Sasori's flamethrower, and Pa can also enhance Ma's or the shadow clones katon with his own fuuton to ramp it up to an even higher level than Sasori's flames enhanced by Temari's fuuton.

Okay but even still, what will poking some tiny holes do to a puppet? The senbons were slow enough to allow animal path to use a Kuchiyose before they could reach her. Satetsu Shigure was strong enough to plow through large amounts of rock and they aren't mere needles unlike Kebari senbon. I'll agree with the rest.

Ma can use the fuuton cloud right off the bat and give Jiraiya time to make clones. Genjutsu would immediately be noticed via sage sensing and released via Kai, not much time wasted in that. Shadow clones can deal with Kumo's attacks. You're also forgetting about Senpō Kawazu Naki, which can freeze Kumo from making attacks, buying Jiraiya even more time to set up his clones and summons. This is more debatable and it's a high diff fight either way IMO, but for now I think Jiraiya wins.

Btw, Jiraiya can't be considered as a lone shinobi in Sage Mode, that'd be an underestimation of the sage toads' skills

The genjutsu was used against Sasuke as well as Madara/Obito but it wasn't broken that fast even though they could see right through it. True about shadow clones but frog song or frog call will give away the location of the real Jiraiya. Frog call's best feat is freezing summons but Raikage clad in RNY is invigorating his body with raiton chakra and increasing his resilience. His nerves are stimulated to such a high level that I doubt he'd be paralysed. Not to mention he could dodge it considering part one Temari could move her arms before sound waves could reach her position and I doubt part one Temari could move her arms before getting blitzed by Ay.

My bad about the genjutsu. Still doesn't change my point though, katon's AoE surpasses the bugs, sage sensing picks out any bug still alive and Ma kills them with her katon, and Fū needs to have a clear shot at Bunta to use Shitenshin no Jutsu, and the sage trio can sense this technique before it's executed and counter accordingly. Tbh I see both of the bodyguards getting one shotted by a giant katon, forcing Danzō to respawn, and Jiraiya's shadow clone + barrier perimiter can be quickly set up before Jiraiya fires off his katon with Bunta.

Fu is a sensor so he'll have a clear shot. Jiraiya using giant katon and whatnot will also create a lot of smoke which can help Danzo catch Jiraiya offguard through Izanagi respawn from the back. Also katon's AoE goes in one direction forward from Jiraiya, not behind him so bugs could still remain safe behind Jiraiya. I'll agree that the bodyguards get one shotted by the katon and Danzo can't stop it.

Jiraiya doesn't need hand seals to use katon, and Baku can be attacked even before he opens his mouth and starts inhaling. Or Pa can slice him with Fighting Tongue Slash.

Jiraiya will still need to inhale but the suction will prevent him from breathing in. Pa could do it if he is close enough but this gives Danzo a good distraction to take Jiraiya out.

 

[EliteKakashi]

Jiraiya is facing the same direction as Ma and Pa.

Just as a quick note, Fukasaku has shown the ability to turn around while still connected to Jiraiya:

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Can't imagine that Shima wouldn't be able to as well.

 

[Ghost in the Shell]

Jiraiya is facing the same direction as Ma and Pa. Furthermore, the oil that 2nd Mizukage uses is different from the one Jiraiya uses so Jiraiya's won't be as effective as explained by Forbidden Technique. Furthermore, Gaara can still take off limbs or use sand binding on Jiraiya or his summons' necks. Even if the sage trio can escape the sand, it gives enough time for Kankuro and Temari to do lethal damage.

Disagree with FT's assertion, considering that watery oil was just a term used by some SA troop to describe the substane; that's not indicative of its properties. Gaara even said in one of those scans that the substance resembles oil more than it does water, meaning that the solution has more oil than it has water mixed in. Gaara had a closer look at it to examine, so I'll trust his word over the other guy's. Furthermore, water doesn't destroy sand, it only makes it slightly slower and weaker in the air. Meaning that the oil is what destroyed the sand. More oil = more sand gets destroyed at a faster rate.

I was actually going to post the scan that EK posted, either of the toads can just turn in different directions to spit oil. Sand attacks aren't working in front of copious amounts of oil, and Bunta can actually just break free on his own depending on the amount of sand used. It's even worse for Gaara if the location isn't a desert, since the sage trio can sense the sand being created and immediately counter.

The whole point is that Gaara's sand remains intact so either him or Kankuro can watch over her if she is left open. If the oil is shot before he jumps, then sure he may be able to get out of the AoE of Temari's fuuton, otherwise if he shoots it after jumping, he doesn't. My point about the thin layer of sand is that the oil's momentum will halt after colliding with the thin sand wall thus allowing

Nope, any sand that comes in contact with the oil gets destroyed immediately. Oil can seep in between the grains of sand, a larger amount of oil makes this process quicker. Kankurō's utility is very limited in this match, he might get his puppets destroyed while trying to counter Jiraiya's sage ninjutsu, and both the former and Gaara have to watch out for attacks from shadow clones. Another boss toad can be summoned here as well to overwhelm Suna

AoE of Goemon surpassing Temari's fuuton is irrelevant as Temari's wind covers enough area to blow away the part of Goemon that does have a chance of hitting the Sand Siblings. How is Bunta going to leap forward when Gaara can grab and crush his limbs with giant sand arms? If he does, Kankuro and Temari make quick work of a midair Bunta before he comes close. Even once he comes close, Gaara could just hover away whereas Bunta in midair can't. A boss toad is only getting summoned on top of them if Jiraiya is above them which is a position where he won't be able to get to. COR is only useful if Jiraiya can get close but he is up against three long ranged fighters.

One of the sage trio alerts Bunta, then the latter spits down oil to stop the sand. Or, since I believe the intel is manga/full, Bunta will know to look down as he leaps so the sage trio don't have to alert him. Temari and Kankurō's attacks get sensed and countered by the sage trio. I'll agree about Goemon, but Temari is going to have to be extremely quick to counter, as the tech will already be prepped by the time they reach the sand sibling's altitude, and can instantly fired off. Depending on how close they get to the sibilings, she may not have enough time. Jiraiya can also have a clone or clones jump, bypassing the wind technique's range, and shoot oil and fire at Suna, or propell themselves towards Suna with Ōdama Rasengans

Sensing is irrelevant when Jiraiya will have his hands full. Shadow clones can help as stalling tactics but they can be taken out with sand drizzle from the sky.

Jiraiya won't be getting worked to the point where sensing is useless though, not when he has clones. Shadow clones aren't just stalling tactics, they can cover Jiraiya's sides and perform attacks to relieve the workload of the real Jiraiya and sage toads. Suna Arare and its variants can be sensed and evaded, countered with fuuton or katon, or blocked with Needle Jizō.

Well the Naruto Wiki says it does need hand seals for (

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) and (

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). Appreantly no handseals are required for (

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) so I'll give you that. However, just because hand seals aren't shown doesn't mean they weren't used. Though my point above still stands.

There are several techs that Narutowiki lists hand seals for, but aren't necessary if the user's skill is at a high enough level to use it without seals, like Chidori and Raikiri. My second scan showed Jiraiya using Katon: Endan after coming out of Ame fodder's shadow, his hands were still binded to the latter's hand's shadows; he couldn't have possibly formed hand seals. TOFB is just Katon: Endan enhanced by Bunta's oil, and Jiraiya doesn't need seals for the latter technique, so logically he doesn't need seals for the former technique either.

Okay but even still, what will poking some tiny holes do to a puppet? The senbons were slow enough to allow animal path to use a Kuchiyose before they could reach her. Satetsu Shigure was strong enough to plow through large amounts of rock and they aren't mere needles unlike Kebari senbon. I'll agree with the rest.

It'll be a bunch of holes that they'd be covered with, since Kankurō's puppet manipulation hasn't shown that it's fast enough to evade a technique like Kebari Senbon, which is probably as fast as Satetsu Shigure. The senbons can cut off the wiring inside the puppet bodies, rendering its functions useless. Chikushōdō had the benefit of Rinnegan shared vision and precog, and him countering KS means that he also had the hand seal speed to counter [

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(only one seal)], not that KS is slow enough to be countered by other shinobi. I'll agree with Satetsu being more powerful, but KS is probably just as fast.

The genjutsu was used against Sasuke as well as Madara/Obito but it wasn't broken that fast even though they could see right through it. True about shadow clones but frog song or frog call will give away the location of the real Jiraiya. Frog call's best feat is freezing summons but Raikage clad in RNY is invigorating his body with raiton chakra and increasing his resilience. His nerves are stimulated to such a high level that I doubt he'd be paralysed. Not to mention he could dodge it considering part one Temari could move her arms before sound waves could reach her position and I doubt part one Temari could move her arms before getting blitzed by Ay.

Well if Ay can't see the attack through Ma's dust cloud, he won't be able to dodge it like Jiraiya says

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. Shee can sense, but shadow clones and/or toad summons will be appearing before them rather quickly, so he'll have his hands full. Good point about RnY, but Ay will still be dealing with shadow clones and toads as distractions. Genjutsu is broken through while Kumo deals with the distractions. Ma and Pa prep Gama Rinshō while Jiraiya makes more distractions via summons, shadow clones, Yomi Numa, and Toad Mouth Bind. I know Ay would break through the last two easily, but Darui may have a problem with Toad Mouth Bind as it ensnares the opponent rather quickly. There's also the fact that they'd have to save Shee from all of this, and also would have to account for the clones and summons attacking from different directions. Jiraiya can switch up his location via

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while the sage toads prep sound genjutsu.

Fu is a sensor so he'll have a clear shot. Jiraiya using giant katon and whatnot will also create a lot of smoke which can help Danzo catch Jiraiya offguard through Izanagi respawn from the back. Also katon's AoE goes in one direction forward from Jiraiya, not behind him so bugs could still remain safe behind Jiraiya. I'll agree that the bodyguards get one shotted by the katon and Danzo can't stop it.

Ma turns around and takes care of them with her katon, like I previously said. Anyways, this is how this battle will play out in my opinion:

1. Jiraiya summons Bunta, and makes shadow clones
2. Jiraiya one shots Fū and Torune while the shadow clones set up multiple senjutsu enhanced sensing barriers.
3. From there on, Danzō literally can't do anything without the sage trio noticing.

Obviously the Root trio aren't just going to stand there and do nothing, but their counters are practically useless. If Danzō kills himself to respawn behind Jiraiya, he gets sensed, taken out by Ma/Pa/shadow clone, or worst case scenario Jiraiya tanks his kunai and one of the clones or sages kills him. Fū's shitenshin is still a jutsu that can be sensed and evaded, and I think it only moves in a straight line. Fuuton and bugs are countered with katon. If Baku is summoned, he gets insta-de-summoned by katon, even before he starts inhaling, or one of the sages can summon another boss toad on top of him.

Jiraiya wins with medium difficulty.

Jiraiya will still need to inhale but the suction will prevent him from breathing in. Pa could do it if he is close enough but this gives Danzo a good distraction to take Jiraiya out.

Hmm, Jiraiya doesn't need to inhale much to use Katon: Endan, and like I said Baku can be dealt with even before he starts inhaling. Food Cart Destroyer can also disrupt his suction (clone jumps up over Baku and summons a toad). Even when he's inhaling, Shima's tongue can wrap around something strong enough to prevent them from getting sucked in, while Jiraiya fires off his katon to get rid of Baku. Pa can cover them from Danzō with sensing and Fighting Tongue Sash. Bunta can probably withstand or evade Baku's suction as well since he'll probably get summoned. If not, Baku gets some oily toad skin in his teeth, then Bunta cleaves him with his sword. This is all if they get caught inside the suction, and I don't think they will.

 

[EliteKakashi]

One thing I haven't seen(just skimmed over the arguments) is no one has brought up Jiraiya won't actually be outnumbered in any of these situations.

Shima can summon the entire toad army herself:

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Jiraiya doesn't need to take the time to summon anyone when she can summon everyone herself, and then the tables will be turned in terms of numbers.

Depending on if you give gigantic Gamakichi to Jiraiya or not, he adds 3 or 4 giant toad summons to the battlefield.