**Sigh** Are we really that slow to say 8 gate is a Tie? Really? lmmfao

[Tazzilla88]

You make no sense and contradicted your self in your own post. You must be a chick that doesn't know anything about competition and battling of any sorts. You obv are a Guy hater because Guy can beat her and you've argued this, but Come on chika be real.

C0 kills the user and Opp at the same time, RDs when the Ritual is complete seals at the same time, Gates doesnt kill anyone at the same time. Learn the definition of what a "tie/draw" is in competition or battling.

Firstly I'm a grown man, thank you.
Second I probably know more about real battles than you do. And I didn't contradict myself, I made points in several ways. Not all of the thoughts in that post was a contuation of the same thought. For instance, in his Ethics, Spinoza would set out a proof and then make his point and in scenarios when there were more than one way to make his point, he made another proof that had no ties to the first proof. That is what I did, but please, show me my contradictions. I dare you.

Now: Gai opens the gates and then gets touched by Ranshinsho, or by Danzo's sealing technique is now unable to move. Or less say he didn't even get touched. His opponent is Muu and whilst opening the Gates, Muu became invinsible. Now Gai has no target whatsoever, and is standing still and he does not touch his opponent after opening the 8th gate. Gai does and his opponent is the winner.

Goddamit, stop saying a competition, because it shows that you know nothing about real battle. Real battle doesn't give a shit about competition rules. Time limits end competition fights. Then it's a matter of time. But in a real battle there is a Chinese technique called the red sand palm that is meant to kill you days later. If we are on a island with no way of escape, and in the midst of battle I pour poison down your throat, and you succeed in killing me, when you're dying from the poison you cannot even begin to say you won. Competition and battling are different ideas entirely. Only a kid thinks otherwise.

 

[Braiyan]

If the win condition is dependent on a person killing their opponent before their opponent kills them, then Guy using the 8th Gate and killing his opponent before dying himself is a win. It doesn't matter whether or not he dies an hour later, 5 minutes later, or even a second later, because he caused his opponent to die sooner. The moment Guy's opponent is dead is the moment he wins. That's how it is in fighting games where the win condition is the death of the opponent and that is how it should be with any versus thread where the win condition is the death of the opponent.

 

[Gold Lightning]

No matter how people put it, all I get out of 'Eight Gates' is...

Gai has to die in order to defeat x character. Don't see what the big deal is here, Reaper Death Seal has been around a lot longer than eight gates and no one cared.

 

[Draegod]

That's a hypothesis you're making, but it was later proven false.

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Minato already had a goal (seal half the Kyuubi - middle right panel), this means the "contract" was complete as soon as Minato sealed half the Kyuubi (manga fact). Yet, he stayed around afterwards.

Take into consideration Hiruzen sealing Tobirama and Hashirama, then going on to seal Orochimaru. It makes sense. In fact, if the contract was to seal Oro's soul, then it wouldn't have settled for just sealing his arms.

Yet, we can see Hizuren's soul has been extracted from his body while Oro still retains his soul.

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It's based on the same principle.

But you fail to finish what is the goal of the RDS seal the user's soul as well. The ritual was never completed and the Kyubi was never fully sealed. Limbo is what you could call it:

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This is when the rituals were officially over and all the souls were sealed 100%! Until then everything is in limbo and anything can happen (such as oru resisting, or the kyubi attacking etc etc). Basically once the ritual is over is when the opponent loses 100% (unless only half or body parts are sealed), but you also lose since both are sealed.

Unless you can show the opponent and RDS gone at the same time with the user still normal or can fight is where i differ both techs. Gai can still fight and walk away, as oppose to the RDS users being sealed 100% with the opponent with both being unable to battle at the same time. And again if you can use RDS and not die once your soul is sealed then my bad, but ima need to see it.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

Trust me, I understand. I just don't agree. Guy is the winner by the concept of winner and loser.

My argument is this: If I push you to point where you're going to kill yourself in an attempt to beat me. Then I can say "Yeah, you beat, but at what cost" your own life? Was it worth it?


My above answer applies to you as well.

It is worth it in V/S threads, unless its stated in the OP that it's not worth it. In many forums such such comicvine, animevice, everybody follows the same rule. DC comic character 'Zoom' wins 95% of all the battles in comicvine because of speedblitz, whether zoom dies 1 attosecond later after winning doesn't matter.

If u can speedblitz and K/O ur opponent, u win

 

[Tazzilla88]

Gai can still fight and walk away, as oppose to the RDS users being sealed 100% with the opponent with both being unable to battle at the same time.

So Sasori poisoned Kankuro, and with his last bit of strength Kankuro's attack kills Sasori. Sakura never arrives to treat Kankuro and he dies. The battle ended in a tie regardless of the temporal difference in deaths.

 

[Draegod]

[video=youtube;OFKvO6CCWIg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFKvO6CCWIg[/video]

Ok, what about this?

Imagine if Yoshimitsu survived for thirty more seconds then dies from his wounds, who wins?

Same time death is tie. What don't you get? Are you saying Guy dies the same time? In the game if he has even 1 Hp left he wins, but since he was at his limit they both died. Now in real life he would bleed to death eventually, but he would still get the win. With the rules in place he gets the W no matter what happens after wards.

Trust me, I understand. I just don't agree. Guy is the winner by the concept of winner and loser.

My argument is this: If I push you to point where you're going to kill yourself in an attempt to beat me. Then I can say "Yeah, you beat, but at what cost" your own life? Was it worth it?


My above answer applies to you as well.

"You may have won the battle, but I've won the war" is basically what happens. Their goals were to kill each other like all fights, but in a vs battle, I killed you thus won the fight to the users or judges that instance for that bout. They don't subtract if you die eventually later.

No matter how people put it, all I get out of 'Eight Gates' is...

Gai has to die in order to defeat x character. Don't see what the big deal is here, Reaper Death Seal has been around a lot longer than eight gates and no one cared.

Basically, they just hate that some ninjas can beat others. In a vs battle, win is a win no matter how you achieve it.

 

[Draegod]

So Sasori poisoned Kankuro, and with his last bit of strength Kankuro's attack kills Sasori. Sakura never arrives to treat Kankuro and he dies. The battle ended in a tie regardless of the temporal difference in deaths.

Again if you would have read the thread entirely you would have seen this has been discussed and it depends on the rules and situations or perspective. In a vs battle, as soon as you die or give up etc you lose! They give you a W! Doesn't matter what happens afterwards, your W can never be erased and changed to a tie since it didn't happen at the same time instantly.

 

[Disquiet]

But you fail to finish what is the goal of the RDS seal the user's soul as well. The ritual was never completed and the Kyubi was never fully sealed. Limbo is what you could call it:

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This is when the rituals were officially over and all the souls were sealed 100%! Until then everything is in limbo and anything can happen (such as oru resisting, or the kyubi attacking etc etc). Basically once the ritual is over is when the opponent loses 100% (unless only half or body parts are sealed), but you also lose since both are sealed.

Unless you can show the opponent and RDS gone at the same time with the user still normal or can fight is where i differ both techs. Gai can still fight and walk away, as oppose to the RDS users being sealed 100% with the opponent with both being unable to battle at the same time. And again if you can use RDS and not die once your soul is sealed then my bad, but ima need to see it.

You're missing a crucial point.

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The goal was completed. You stated in your own words that the user's soul was never sealed, and thus, the user doesn't die instantly. He only dies when his own soul is sealed, which doesn't have to be immediately afterwards.

If that wasn't the Kyuubi, but a much smaller entity (He stated in his own words it was too much to seal), he would have been defeated. And Minato, would have been alive afterwards.

Again, this is backed up by the fact that Hiruzen sealed Tobirama and Hashirama. Your argument against that was that it disappears only after completing its objective, only you can't say that now since we saw Minato's objective completed. In fact, you adjusted your point of view (after seeing Minato alive after completing his objective) toward the fact that it only disappears when the user is sealed (Again, refer to Minato's case).

I think I've shown enough scans and used enough logic to show that this is fact.

 

[Gold Lightning]

Basically, they just hate that some ninjas can beat others. In a vs battle, win is a win no matter how you achieve it.

So you're ok with RDS being used to kill an opponent?

 

[Tazzilla88]

Again if you would have read the thread entirely you would have seen this has been discussed and it depends on the rules and situations or perspective. In a vs battle, as soon as you die or give up etc you lose! They give you a W! Doesn't matter what happens afterwards, your W can never be erased and changed to a tie since it didn't happen at the same time instantly.

That's my point about battles as opposed to competition. There are no rules. And there is no temporal nature to winner. Where did you derive the concept that winning in a battle is about surviving longer.

Why are we talking about a "w" in competition settings if we're talking about a life or death battle in which Gai is going to die as a result of this battle, regardless of any other force beyond the battle. At the point that RDS and c0 and 8th Gate is brought ought, THEY have no reason to give Gai a "W" as he as ensured his death without necessarily ensuring the death of his opponent. Thus, the best he could hope for is a pyrrhic victory, which we're calling a tie at this point. Now if I'm in a battle to subdue my opponent who is intent on killing me, while I may succeed in subduing them at that time, in the process of subduing them I have an artery cut. I die, after having successfully subdued them (numerous broken bones and cut tendons.) Who won the battle?

 

[Draegod]

You're missing a crucial point.

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The goal was completed. You stated in your own words that the user's soul was never sealed, and thus, the user doesn't die instantly. He only dies when his own soul is sealed, which doesn't have to be immediately afterwards.

If that wasn't the Kyuubi, but a much smaller entity (He stated in his own words it was too much to seal), he would have been defeated. And Minato, would have been alive afterwards.

Again, this is backed up by the fact that Hiruzen sealed Tobirama and Hashirama. Your argument against that was that it disappears only after completing its objective, only you can't say that now since we saw Minato's objective completed. In fact, you adjusted your point of view (after seeing Minato alive after completing his objective) toward the fact that it only disappears when the user is sealed (Again, refer to Minato's case).

I think I've shown enough scans and used enough logic to show that this is fact.

And you don't get that The kyubi was held down and couldnt do anything. A normal ninja (oru) would and could resist. SO that is a bad example to say minato could seal every ninja no diff or anything close to that notion. Minato's goal was not completed and even says what he has to do (naruto kushina etc etc) so to say the "Goal" was completely would be false. And again a chakra entity is different from a ninja. Minato would have been sealed along with Oru once it was over since the goal is both ninjas. And with the edo zombies they are not the same and it was with clones, you would have to show it on a real ninja like Saru displayed which is the only h=facts to go off on. And again if minato can live after the RDs is gone then he wins, but until then the Soul/ninja is still around and thus "Limbo" of no victor is in play. You basically have to show the soul of a alive ninja sealed with the RDS gone to say it's 100% victory. And if minato could (which wouldnt be easy or possible against the elites) seal them then function normally then yes it's his win.

 

[Draegod]

So you're ok with RDS being used to kill an opponent?

I never said anything about minato cannot use it. It is just useless against the elites since it takes time and ninjas can counter or resist it. When the ritual is complete both are sealed instantly though.

 

[Conspirator.]

It's obviously a tie if Gai dies after the 8th gate......

 

[Tazzilla88]

I'd also like to point out that with c0, the user dies first since they are the center of the explosion, thus according to your arguments, c0 users couldn't even tie, they'd just lose.

 

[Disquiet]

And you don't get that The kyubi was held down and couldnt do anything.

I'm not sure what this has to do with anything. We're discussing the perspective behind a situation where one uses a suicide tech to defeat his opponent. You're basically saying that if Guy was able to hypothetically create a clone, and hold down his opponent while using 8 Gates, that the premise of your thread wouldn't apply.

A normal ninja (oru) would and could resist. SO that is a bad example to say minato could seal every ninja no diff or anything close to that notion.

Remember, this is about being alive after using RDS. Obito could go intangible for about 10 mins I think, or go to his other dimension and try to sneak attack Guy since Guy has no sensing abilities. Any shinobi that knows the hiding like a mole technique could go underground, and Gai is basically finished since he activated it. Any ninja that can go invisible (Mu for example, or Trollkage when he deploys his mirage), or any ninja that can fly fast (Deidara or Onoki) can offer some resistance as well. Nagato's shinrei tensei that blew up the village could be a problem as well. Now, I don't want to turn this into a versus thread. But, that is "resistance". Again, you're basically telling me that the premise of this thread would be invalid if a shinobi could offer some resistance. I don't see how resistance has any bearing on this discussion.

Minato's goal was not completed and even says what he has to do (naruto kushina etc etc) so to say the "Goal" was completely would be false.

You're leaving the boundaries of this discussion. Remember, we were talking about his goal with RDS. That goal was completed. This is like saying after Minato or Hiruzen sealed someone inside RDS, the RDS wouldn't leave if Minato's goal was to go home and eat a bowl of Frosted Flakes, and after he achieves that, the Death Reaper vanishes. We're talking about the RDS. He completed his reason for summoning the RDS.

And again a chakra entity is different from a ninja. Minato would have been sealed along with Oru once it was over since the goal is both ninjas.

This is not true. Hiruzen's clones (chakra entity) was sealed along with Hashirama and Tobirama.

And with the edo zombies they are not the same and it was with clones, you would have to show it on a real ninja like Saru displayed which is the only h=facts to go off on.

So basically, you're saying that if Minato was in a fight with Kurama (Yin or Yang - 1/2), that he would win the match if RDS is used. I mean, you basically said this kind of match would meet all your requirements. But, if it was Minato vs a ninja, it wouldn't work because ninjas are different?

Edos have souls, clones are a mere chakra entity, the latter shouldn't even have been able to seal the edos if what you say is true (a jutsu that takes the soul, yet the clones were able to do use it). I do believe, that I brought enough scans/logic to the table to consider this as fact.

And again if minato can live after the RDs is gone then he wins, but until then the Soul/ninja is still around and thus "Limbo" of no victor is in play. You basically have to show the soul of a alive ninja sealed with the RDS gone to say it's 100% victory. And if minato could (which wouldnt be easy or possible against the elites) seal them then function normally then yes it's his win.

If it's a ninja, it wouldn't matter if his body is lying dead on the ground because his soul has been extracted. This is being overly technical.

I hope we can come to an agreement that the RDS should be in the same classification as 8 Gates.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

I'd also like to point out that with c0, the user dies first since they are the center of the explosion, thus according to your arguments, c0 users couldn't even tie, they'd just lose.

C0 kills both opponent and user nigh-instantly, thus its a tie if both die. 8th gate and C0 is a lot different. If deidara uses C0 against hagoromo and dies, he loses, coz it wont have any effect on hagoromo

 

[Forbidden Technique]

You realize that all that has happened in those three chapter is literally a few seconds worth of fighting. For some reason you believe the time passing in Naruto's head = Real world time. And if Tsukyomi has taught us anything, mental time =/= to real time. Kakashi spent 24 hours in 1 second. Gai started to use Evening Elephant, then began Evening Elephant (that happened so fast a juubi jin couldn't react which should tell you how little time had elapsed in between those pages, and the end of this chapter literally picked up at where we left Gai and Maddy. So you can't say it isn't a quick 1-2-3 because there isn't a chance that more than a minute has passed.

No, I don't actually, because nothing suggests or support your claim, which is proabably why you had to take it all the way to left field with bringing up Tsukiyomi. If you read from

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page and onward for a chapter or two, you'll realize that Bee is interfering with the internal battle that is going on within Naruto from the outside world. Not only that, but everything that happens to Naruto internally happens in the outside world as well [

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]-[

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]. And if you want to go as far as stating that Narutos internal battle with Kurama isn't the same as his conversation with Rikudo Sennin, then [

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]... even his conversation with his mother equates to real world time. This is nothing like Itachi's tsukiyomi.

@ Bold, you must be joking. Just by taking a look at both scans and comparing the two indicate that there was some crazy off panel fighting.

You make the mistake of comparing this to a race. This is particular situation is similar to someone impaling themselves in a fight to kill their opponent behind them, and they don't get hit in a less vital area than their opponent, when they die a few minutes later from blood loss that duel has ended in a tie. OR you could even think of it in terms of the old west, you're in a duel to the death and you can't seem to hit your opponent so you decide to take a major hit and kill them when they get close enough to check and see if you're dead. Minutes later you die out from the wounds you opted to take. So far is everyone is concerned you died as a result of the battle and it ended in a tie. Because you're opponent forced you into a position in which you had no other option in eliminating them, than to eliminate yourself as well.

Whatever you say. Chouji ate the red pill which shares the same consequences as the 8th Gate, yet it was still valued as a win [

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]. The last man standing is the victor. Same thing applies

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with Neji, who realistaclly should of and would of died if it wasn't for someone saving him later on. Yet the manga still gave the victory to Neji.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

No, I don't actually, because nothing suggests or support your claim, which is proabably why you had to take it all the way to left field with bringing up Tsukiyomi. If you read from

You must be registered for see links

page and onward for a chapter or two, you'll realize that Bee is interfering with the internal battle that is going on within Naruto from the outside world. Not only that, but everything that happens to Naruto internally happens in the outside world as well [

You must be registered for see links

]-[

You must be registered for see links

]. And if you want to go as far as stating that Narutos internal battle with Kurama isn't the same as his conversation with Rikudo Sennin, then [

You must be registered for see links

]... even his conversation with his mother equates to real world time. This is nothing like Itachi's tsukiyomi.

@ Bold, you must be joking. Just by taking a look at both scans and comparing the two indicate that there was some crazy off panel fighting.



Whatever you say. Chouji ate the red pill which shares the same consequences as the 8th Gate, yet it was still valued as a win [

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]. The last man standing is the victor. Same thing applies

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with Neji, who realistaclly should of and would of died if it wasn't for someone saving him later on. Yet the manga still gave the victory to Neji.

Nice find, even the manga says first one to die is the loser. +Rep

 

[Tazzilla88]

No, I don't actually, because nothing suggests or support your claim, which is proabably why you had to take it all the way to left field with bringing up Tsukiyomi. If you read from

You must be registered for see links

page and onward for a chapter or two, you'll realize that Bee is interfering with the internal battle that is going on within Naruto from the outside world. Not only that, but everything that happens to Naruto internally happens in the outside world as well [

You must be registered for see links

]-[

You must be registered for see links

]. And if you want to go as far as stating that Narutos internal battle with Kurama isn't the same as his conversation with Rikudo Sennin, then [

You must be registered for see links

]... even his conversation with his mother equates to real world time. This is nothing like Itachi's tsukiyomi.

@ Bold, you must be joking. Just by taking a look at both scans and comparing the two indicate that there was some crazy off panel fighting.



Whatever you say. Chouji ate the red pill which shares the same consequences as the 8th Gate, yet it was still valued as a win [

You must be registered for see links

]. The last man standing is the victor. Same thing applies

You must be registered for see links

with Neji, who realistaclly should of and would of died if it wasn't for someone saving him later on. Yet the manga still gave the victory to Neji.

Um no nothing suggests that internal time = real time anywhere. People doing things outside of internal time doesn't mean equal time has passed in the two dimensions. Only that time has passed in the two dimensions.

You're right that some battling has happened in between, still given the speed of the fighters we can't say much has happened and since they're both harping on about evening elephant, it seems as though little time has passed.

Chouji ate the red pill and survived. That's the difference. There was a possibility of his survival. Eating the red pill isn't guaranteed death as opposed to the 8th gate.

Another question, when did Jiraiya lose, the first time he died or the second?

And my whole point regarding c0 defeats the idea of temporality of death relating to winner.