**Sigh** Are we really that slow to say 8 gate is a Tie? Really? lmmfao

[fastrthnwind]

Tobirama and Hashirama are simple tools in a scenario battle between Orochimaru and Gai. Gai uses 8gates to defeat Tobirama and Hashirama, then continues his fight with Orochimaru, but dies before delivering the finishing blow. Where is the difference?

the difference is that he didnt defeat his actual opponent, orochimaru who had used the tools to fight for him in the first place. if gai couldnt defeat oros tools and Oro himself, then gai didnt beat Oro.

 

[Bogard]

The ritual wasn't completed, and when it was Hiruzen was sealed (same with minato). Rituals work differently.

Whether the ritual was completed or not is besides the point. The 8gate has a time limit just like the RDS. The opponent can be defeated long before the ritual is complete just like the opponent can be defeated long before the 8gate user finally dies from the drawbacks of the technique that will happen sooner or later. Again, where is the difference?

the difference is that he didnt defeat his actual opponent, orochimaru who had used the tools to fight for him in the first place. if gai couldnt defeat oros tools and Oro himself, then gai didnt beat Oro.

My point exactly. So you agree they are similar?

 

[Joseph Gomes]

If you die months later, that's an entirely different story. Understand what the 8th Gate is for. It's meant to protect something or someone precious to you. Once you open the 8th Gate, you have made the decision to die. After he defeated his opponent, why would he continue using the 8th Gate to stay alive or clinging on to his life? His fate is already inevitable.

Then we're talking Narutoverse time. Madara and Guy's fight could possibly be a max of 5 minutes in their time.

Even if it's 5 seconds after the fight, the one to die first is the loser

 

[fastrthnwind]

It won't change anything considering the fact that Gai dies in a few minutes.As I said b4 it depends on the Objective of the battle.

the objective in nb vs threads is usually to defeat the opponent through incapacitation KO or death. that has been the main objective and criteria we go by

 

[A v i]

Gai will lose to Madara because of the plot. Gai can't kill Madara. The thread is about whether killing the opponent before dying yourself counts as a win or not. And in this case, Gai wins against most opponents, even if he uses 8 gates and die 1 hour later

That bold point is irrelevant here as no one is talking about whether Gai is going to win against Madara or not.Iam just using it as an example that's all.I have already explained it plenty of times with a clear example.If it is a battle to death then it should be considered as a draw.If the battle is to achive an objective such as protecting someone from your enemy(what is Gai currently trying to do) then the winner'll be decided based on whether the person whose life is on the line managed to achive his objective or not.Simple as that.

 

[Solo]

Even if it's 5 seconds after the fight, the one to die first is the loser

If you put them in the concept of winner and loser, yes. You can say the first one who died is the loser. If you're aiming to kill me, and I'm aiming kill you. Then it's draw, Sir. It depend on the goal, I guess.

Saying a suicide tech put you above other is just a bit too much.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

That bold point is irrelevant here as no one is talking about whether Gai is going to win against Madara or not.Iam just using it as an example that's all.I have already explained it plenty of times with a clear example if it is a battle to death then it should be considered as a draw.If the battle is to achive an objective protecting someone from your enemy(what is Gai currently trying to do) then the winner'll be decided based on whether the person whose life is on the line managed to achive his objective or not.Simple as that.

In narutobase, the one to die first in a death match is the loser. Thats the objective. Unless it's specifically mentioned in the OP (like the one u made about infinite tsukoyomi)

 

[Draegod]

If you die months later, that's an entirely different story. Understand what the 8th Gate is for. It's meant to protect something or someone precious to you. Once you open the 8th Gate, you have made the decision to die. After he defeated his opponent, why would he continue using the 8th Gate to stay alive or clinging on to his life? His fate is already inevitable.

Then we're talking Narutoverse time. Madara and Guy's fight could possibly be a max of 5 minutes in their time.

Oh shit I remember your user name now. I havent seen you active in what seems forever. haha

OT: I see you changed your argument a little when you seen i had a point (i can suffer injuries from my own attempts that could kill me later). And yes I agree and know why/what 8 gates are or used for. My point is that he didn't die at the same time simultaneously. I never disputed whether he would live after gates. Lets say Tenten was the target in replace of madara Here:

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She dies (lets assume.lol). Is Gai still in gates? Is gai still able to fight? is gai still alive???? Can gai still Go and fight others or run home? You get what im saying now?

It won't change anything considering the fact that Gai dies in a few minutes.As I said b4 it depends on the Objective of the battle.

Agreed it depends on the objective and rules of the fight. You could limit or say "No 8th gate victory or it is a draw" or you could say other things. But in terms of real life rules used by professionals and 99% of the world the fight is over when (posted a picture from the manga itself in op).

@Draegod, I replied to your post on page 4.

I'll check it out later bro.

Whether the ritual was completed or not is besides the point. The 8gate has a time limit just like the RDS. The opponent can be defeated long before the ritual is complete just like the opponent can be defeated long before the 8gate user finally dies from the drawbacks of the technique that will happen sooner or later. Again, where is the difference?

If the opponent was defeated before RDS sealed them then the RDS user win since they didn't use RDS to seal the target but instead rasengan spammed (in minato's case) to win. I Get what you are saying really i do bro, but in terms of a real fight, the fight is over when the fight can no longer go on and is nothing left to fight with.

 

[RicardoA]

the first part is considered a tie. a draw happens when the two sides are able to continue fighting after a set amount of time.

amyways, its not specifically suicide by itself, but a suicide technique in battle whose definition that im using.

death is not required to use the 8th gate, because if it was, then they wouldnt be able to use the technique in the first place. death is just the aftereffect of using the 8th gate. when its opened, the user doesnt die, they ae still alive as long as their body has energy in comparison to c0 in which the persons body explodes to kill themselves and their opponent or RDS where their body is used as a catalyst for the death god to take another persons sould and seal it within its belly.

the consequenses only pertain to the parameters of the battle, otherwise, it woudl kean that the jutsu determine whether a person wins or loses, which it doesnt. if a person is dead, the match is over. its the most fundamental rule of battle.

I understood that part, i was just being a bit of grammar nazi o>o

Death should also be an aftereffect of using RDS too, since the user doesn't die the moment the jutsu is activated either and other jutsus can be used meanwhile. I won't touch C0 because it indeed works in a slightly different manner.
Well, the effects of the methods employed in battle (in this case jutsus) should, in my view, determine who wins and who doesn't. Until these effects stop taking action the battle still goes on.

 

[Tazzilla88]

Thank the Good Lord Jesus.... someone gets it. An already exhausted Gai has been in the 8th gate for 3 whole chapters going on 4.... So it's not even like it's a quick 1-2-3 he busts his final nut and dies.

You realize that all that has happened in those three chapter is literally a few seconds worth of fighting. For some reason you believe the time passing in Naruto's head = Real world time. And if Tsukyomi has taught us anything, mental time =/= to real time. Kakashi spent 24 hours in 1 second. Gai started to use Evening Elephant, then began Evening Elephant (that happened so fast a juubi jin couldn't react which should tell you how little time had elapsed in between those pages, and the end of this chapter literally picked up at where we left Gai and Maddy. So you can't say it isn't a quick 1-2-3 because there isn't a chance that more than a minute has passed.

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And to put it simply for these niggas, I wasn't even going to waste my time but since were at it right now... Say two people are racing, and they both reach the finish line at the same time. That is what you call a tie. Now, say one person reaches the finish line first but over exerts himself and dies ten minutes after. You gon' tell me he didn't win...? He crossed the finish line first and won the race, but because he died, it makes it a tie...? Doesn't even make sense.

You make the mistake of comparing this to a race. This is particular situation is similar to someone impaling themselves in a fight to kill their opponent behind them, and they don't get hit in a less vital area than their opponent, when they die a few minutes later from blood loss that duel has ended in a tie. OR you could even think of it in terms of the old west, you're in a duel to the death and you can't seem to hit your opponent so you decide to take a major hit and kill them when they get close enough to check and see if you're dead. Minutes later you die out from the wounds you opted to take. So far is everyone is concerned you died as a result of the battle and it ended in a tie. Because you're opponent forced you into a position in which you had no other option in eliminating them, than to eliminate yourself as well.

Again you would have to show me when the ritual is complete to say it is equal to gates. When Hiruzen and minato used it the ritual was not complete and the opp was not defeated or sealed (manga fact). Gates isn't a ritual, hell you don't even have to kill the opponents in gates you have options. RDS is seal and nothing else (that is why Hiruzen didn't care about being stabbed). So to be valid you would have to show me the Reaper gone opponent seal and the user still standing to be valid.



And again you would have to show clones being used on the intended target to have a point. Remember it is a ritual with a goal in place.

So my counter argument is if the effects should only take place after the goal is completed Hiruzen had no reason to worry about Orochimaru taking his soul back as could not have died without the ritual completed. Which is obviously not true, at one point the Reaper was going to receive more of Orochimaru's soul but Hiruzen was dying as a result of sealing the first and second hokages. And thus had to settle for sealing Orochimaru's arms.
But even still, the goal in mind for Reaper Death Seal, as Hiruzen obviously didn't do all he wanted, he to seal souls. Thus, it doesn't matter if you got as many souls as you wanted or the entire soul that you wanted, rather what seems to matter is that a soul or some portion of it is taken. And the best possible outcome is that you take multiple or all of your enemies with you.

Gai, When you Flee from the battle completely you lose. that is a fact of life! No disputing! You lose the battle immediately because you acknowledged you do not tend to stay and fight. Flee=admit defeat in a battle where you and said boxer are suppose to fight.

I thought last man standing was the winner. I mean if your opponent causes fatal harm to themselves in order to harm you, why exactly would you stick around to continue to battle them when they are going to die from their injuries from your battle. And then you'd be the victor as they died from the fight and you didn't. Sticking around is just asinine.

That's like Sasuke Raikage power bombing a ninja 100 feet from the sky and they die. The Raikage also suffered major damage. He later is hospitalized and dies months later. Is it still a draw?????

Raikage does an axe kick on Sasuke's neck while Sasuke stabs Raikage's torso. Raikage is going to die, but Sasuke will die first since he's missing a head whereas Raikage is bleeding out. Whose the winner? No one. By the way, time has nothing to do with it really. If the reason that you die is because of a fatal injury from that battle, for instance, you were poisoned during a battle, kill off the opponent and then days later die from the poison. You didn't win. You just took longer to die. And you're trying to reference techniques that kill yourself whilst killing you're opponent. The reason you really can't come up with any examples is because they are portrayed to be a tie. That's why it costs you your life to use c0 and RDS. And in real life its like throwing a grenade at your enemy while you in the blast range. A shrapnel cuts your jugular and you bleed to death after your enemy is a blood pulp, you still tied.

not sure how that makes sense since the meteor is too large to make a distinction of who died first based on their location. when the meteor lands, if madara is near the edge then he may survive, which is highly unlikely since all he does is call a meteor to his location, and the size of the meteor would be too big for him to try to avoid anyways.


Comparing it to gais battle is a bit much since it can be decided whether or not who dies first based on who is the last one standing. if the somehow end up killing each other at the same time, then its a tie.

Nope, not a stretch at all, why should perception matter in terms of fact. Whether or not others can tell who won is irrelevant to the fact that someone won. Right? Whether it's 2 days or a jiffy, it really shouldn't matter with the arguments you proposed, it only matter who dies first.
So let's say Kakashi successfully killed Pain, knowing if he used another jutsu he'd die from chakra exhaustion, he used the jutsu, the jutsu completed and killed Pain. Kakashi is now drops dead. He tied. Not won.

Reread the entire thread.

.

I did all of your arguments are weak.
There are techniques that are intended to kill over time, rather than immediately and your argument would say that if Sasori poisoned Konan before she pierced his heart, when she dies from that poison it isn't a tie because she had returned home within those 3 days she was still alive.
Further, the suicidal nature of the technique makes it no less a tie and you've provided no reason to suggest otherwise beyond it doesn't feel that way.
8th Gate is in the same category as c0 and RDS

Edit:By the way, the bolded is me arguing from your position since you seem to think I'm contradicting myself.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

If you put them in the concept of winner and loser, yes. You can say the first one who died is the loser. If you're aiming to kill me, and I'm aiming kill you. Then it's draw, Sir. It depend on the goal, I guess.

Saying a suicide tech put you above other is just a bit too much.

It's a suicide tech against Madara because it's ineffective. It's not the same against others.
8th Gate can kill many kage level shinobi in an instant. If Gai lives longer than the people he's killed, he wins.

It's a suicide technique if Gai died at the moment he used it, like Deidara.

 

[A v i]

the objective in nb vs threads is usually to defeat the opponent through incapacitation KO or death. that has been the main objective and criteria we go by

No,it is clearly not.Gai's main objective behind fighting Madara is to stop infinite Tsukuyomi not to kill Madara.If he failed to stop Madara from casting genjutsu then Gai'll be the loser of the battle.If u put your life on the line to protect your lil sis from me a serial killer and yet failed to so then you clearly lost against me even if I die from your attack.

Who is the winner of Minato VS Obito and Kyuubi battle? Yes,It is Minato.He actually died from that battle yet the winner is Minato not Obito coz Minato managed to stop Obito from destroying the village which means that Obito failed to achive his goal where as Minato succeeded to save village and seal Kyuubi again.Unlike VS threads almost every battle in NV is has an objective.

 

[Draegod]

You realize that all that has happened in those three chapter is literally a few seconds worth of fighting. For some reason you believe the time passing in Naruto's head = Real world time. And if Tsukyomi has taught us anything, mental time =/= to real time. Kakashi spent 24 hours in 1 second. Gai started to use Evening Elephant, then began Evening Elephant (that happened so fast a juubi jin couldn't react which should tell you how little time had elapsed in between those pages, and the end of this chapter literally picked up at where we left Gai and Maddy. So you can't say it isn't a quick 1-2-3 because there isn't a chance that more than a minute has passed.

You make the mistake of comparing this to a race. This is particular situation is similar to someone impaling themselves in a fight to kill their opponent behind them, and they don't get hit in a less vital area than their opponent, when they die a few minutes later from blood loss that duel has ended in a tie. OR you could even think of it in terms of the old west, you're in a duel to the death and you can't seem to hit your opponent so you decide to take a major hit and kill them when they get close enough to check and see if you're dead. Minutes later you die out from the wounds you opted to take. So far is everyone is concerned you died as a result of the battle and it ended in a tie. Because you're opponent forced you into a position in which you had no other option in eliminating them, than to eliminate yourself as well.

So my counter argument is if the effects should only take place after the goal is completed Hiruzen had no reason to worry about Orochimaru taking his soul back as could not have died without the ritual completed. Which is obviously not true, at one point the Reaper was going to receive more of Orochimaru's soul but Hiruzen was dying as a result of sealing the first and second hokages. And thus had to settle for sealing Orochimaru's arms.
But even still, the goal in mind for Reaper Death Seal, as Hiruzen obviously didn't do all he wanted, he to seal souls. Thus, it doesn't matter if you got as many souls as you wanted or the entire soul that you wanted, rather what seems to matter is that a soul or some portion of it is taken. And the best possible outcome is that you take multiple or all of your enemies with you.


I thought last man standing was the winner. I mean if your opponent causes fatal harm to themselves in order to harm you, why exactly would you stick around to continue to battle them when they are going to die from their injuries from your battle. And then you'd be the victor as they died from the fight and you didn't. Sticking around is just asinine.
Raikage does an axe kick on Sasuke's neck while Sasuke stabs Raikage's torso. Raikage is going to die, but Sasuke will die first since he's missing a head whereas Raikage is bleeding out. Whose the winner? No one. By the way, time has nothing to do with it really. If the reason that you die is because of a fatal injury from that battle, for instance, you were poisoned during a battle, kill off the opponent and then days later die from the poison. You didn't win. You just took longer to die. And you're trying to reference techniques that kill yourself whilst killing you're opponent. The reason you really can't come up with any examples is because they are portrayed to be a tie. That's why it costs you your life to use c0 and RDS. And in real life its like throwing a grenade at your enemy while you in the blast range. A shrapnel cuts your jugular and you bleed to death after your enemy is a blood pulp, you still tied.

Nope, not a stretch at all, why should perception matter in terms of fact. Whether or not others can tell who won is irrelevant to the fact that someone won. Right? Whether it's 2 days or a jiffy, it really shouldn't matter with the arguments you proposed, it only matter who dies first.
So let's say Kakashi successfully killed Pain, knowing if he used another jutsu he'd die from chakra exhaustion, he used the jutsu, the jutsu completed and killed Pain. Kakashi is now drops dead. He tied. Not won.


I did all of your arguments are weak.
There are techniques that are intended to kill over time, rather than immediately and your argument would say that if Sasori poisoned Konan before she pierced his heart, when she dies from that poison it isn't a tie because she had returned home within those 3 days she was still alive.
Further, the suicidal nature of the technique makes it no less a tie and you've provided no reason to suggest otherwise beyond it doesn't feel that way.
8th Gate is in the same category as c0 and RDS

You make no sense and contradicted your self in your own post. You must be a chick that doesn't know anything about competition and battling of any sorts. You obv are a Guy hater because Guy can beat her and you've argued this, but Come on chika be real.

C0 kills the user and Opp at the same time, RDs when the Ritual is complete seals at the same time, Gates doesnt kill anyone at the same time. Learn the definition of what a "tie/draw" is in competition or battling.

 

[A v i]

In narutobase, the one to die first in a death match is the loser. Thats the objective. Unless it's specifically mentioned in the OP (like the one u made about infinite tsukoyomi)

I have been a member of NB as well as an active member of VS section for a long ass time but I have never seen anyone(exept you guys) deciding the winner like that.In a kill or get killed match it should be considered as a draw as the both the parties managed to kill their respective opponent.

 

[Penguin]

[video=youtube;OFKvO6CCWIg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFKvO6CCWIg[/video]

Ok, what about this?

Imagine if Yoshimitsu survived for thirty more seconds then dies from his wounds, who wins?

 

[TrollingSage]

One point to consider. Does someone who uses the 8th gates really kill his opponent first? It is said that opening the 8th gate leads to death. You will die minutes laters after the jutsu.
Therefore couldnt it be said that your opponent has forced you to kill yourself in order to kill him? Since when someone opens the 8th gate, they're definitely going to die.

 

[Sennin of Logic]

Oh my gosh! The double standards are sssssooooooo bad. So it doesn't count for Minato since once the jutsu's completed, the user dies? That's absurd! What in the heck do you call the freaking 8 gates?! Once that jutsu's completed, Guy dies! Same concept! There's so many holes in the fanboy's logic it's not even funny. Face it, it's the same thing. Minato did a seal on half of Kurama's chakra inside of him. This leaves 1 of 2 options.

A. Minato can use the seal and survive for a while.

B. Minato can specifically choose to nerf his enemies for an easy kill, which results in them dying before the jutsu's complete.


No difference between the usage of RDS and 8th gate. None. Both kill you after a period of time after usage. Both can be used to kill the enemy before they die. Saying one is valid and the other isn't is hypocritical, and demonstrates fanboyness.


I knew this was going to happen when Guy got the gates! Now his fans are attempting to attribute its power to his standing.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

I have been a member of NB as well as an active member of VS section for a long ass time but I have never seen anyone(exept you guys) deciding the winner like that.In a kill or get killed match it should be considered as a draw as the both the parties managed to kill their respective opponent.

False. Only one party killed the other. The survivor died later as an aftermath. If Gai uses 8th Gate against Kiba, both are going to die. But it doesn't mean Kiba killed Gai. But Gai did kill Kiba, and Gai won the fight. How and when Gai's gonna die, doesn't matter, because the fight's already over

 

[Solo]

Oh shit I remember your user name now. I havent seen you active in what seems forever. haha

OT: I see you changed your argument a little when you seen i had a point (i can suffer injuries from my own attempts that could kill me later). And yes I agree and know why/what 8 gates are or used for. My point is that he didn't die at the same time simultaneously. I never disputed whether he would live after gates. Lets say Tenten was the target in replace of madara Here:

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She dies (lets assume.lol). Is Gai still in gates? Is gai still able to fight? is gai still alive???? Can gai still Go and fight others or run home? You get what im saying now?

Trust me, I understand. I just don't agree. Guy is the winner by the concept of winner and loser.

My argument is this: If I push you to point where you're going to kill yourself in an attempt to beat me. Then I can say "Yeah, you beat, but at what cost" your own life? Was it worth it?

It's a suicide tech against Madara because it's ineffective. It's not the same against others.
8th Gate can kill many kage level shinobi in an instant. If Gai lives longer than the people he's killed, he wins.

It's a suicide technique if Gai died at the moment he used it, like Deidara.

My above answer applies to you as well.

 

[Yocolaw]

For what ever reason many Users on this Particular Site seem to think that If you use 8 gates, Kill the Opponent, then wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy After the fact You die from your own Tech that it's a Draw... Dafuq????

8 gates isn't the same as RDS or C0 or Meteor Sky fall nor Compare! The Difference in those Tech's is OBV if you have any common sense... You Die at the Same time! Let's take it back to Grade school for the clueless users:




Now Lets Learn the Meaning of Tie:



Now lets look at the Definition of "Win(ning)" and "Victory".








Now that we got that out the way, lets look at the def' for when you have lost and the battle is officially over:




Now People if you haven't figured it out yet. If I succeed in Killing You the Battle is officially over and I WIN! If I die wayyyy after, it doesn't matter since its already over and I was the Cause of my death. It wasn't because of you and the battle has long since been won. This is common sense that even Little kids can grasp! With RDS you die together, C0 you Die together etc etc. With 8th Gate I kill you, Battles over, then Way way way later I die at home or something. That's like Mike Tyson fighting, Throwing a Hay-maker that Connects, Wins with TKO, I go home then Later realize he over stretched my arm and Something happens that results in his death wayyyy later. Now even though he later dies, was the battle already won? Ask your self and use your brain....

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I thought I was the only one relize this.but I think most do it's just there mad it's guy and not there fave there mad his hype is real. So they use that to justify there case . Anyway gai knows this tec would kill him cause it's meant to be used to protect and fight god level opponents at the cost so it's not like he dosnt know he'll die name anyone else beside current sasuke and naruto who can utilize a op tech that's not instant kill the user (c1)or cost them to even if missed(rds)