**Sigh** Are we really that slow to say 8 gate is a Tie? Really? lmmfao

[fastrthnwind]

I disagree.
For me it doesn't matter if both die at the same time or one dies 1 hour after. He dies as a consequence of something that happened during their battle, for the purpose of 'winning' that battle, meaning the opponent pushed him that far.

the part that matters though is the battle itself. if the opponent is killed in any way before the user, then they lost automatically. it does t matter if the person dies later because of the consequences of a techniqe because it was simply a tool used to defeat his opponent. the fact that ot costs him his life only means that he now has a timer to best his opponent, and he has to beat that timer to defeat his opponent in order to win.

 

[Strict]

My thoughts exactly. The winner is the last man standing.

 

[Disquiet]

I don't see why not

That's extremely interesting. It would put Hiruzen and Minato very high on the top 10 list, and make them virtually unbeatable aside from the Juubi Jins and maybe Obito who can become intangible (though of course, they can always be killed before using it).

The Edo's being sealed is tricky because they weren't Oru and we have no idea to tell if since it wasn't Oru that the RDS didn't end yet (Obv since it didn't seal his soul like after with oru's arms, or the other half of the kyubi). Basically it could have been since the Ritual wasn't complete that the RD wouldn't seal his soul yet. Because as we all know, unless the ritual is complete it will not end.

So basically the difference is that Since when the ritual has been fully completed we have seen both sealed it's hard to compare since guy can literally kill you instantly walk around, run home, eat then eventually die to the gates. As oppose to the Ritual of RDS (when completed). But again If we see the RDS ritual Completed and the RDS gone and if the user can function normally before being sealed then yes it would be the same as 8th gates killing then chilling home then eventually dying.

@Underline, we can't be sure, keep in mind that we can't get a real sense of the time from the panels. And if it's guaranteed to kill you, that would mean even if it's deactivated, you'll still die <--- We don't know if that's within 10-20 mins. Also, keep in mind that Hiruzen summoned RDS sometime before sealing Tobirama and Hiruzen.


@Bold, as we saw, the RDS is capable of sealing people before the ritual is completed (sealed Tobirama and Hiruzen). That means, they can 'defeat' their opponent before it's completed. This is equivalent to Gai defeating his opponent before he dies.

 

[Touken]

The problem with RDS is that it requires the user to subdue the opponent. There's no such drawback with 8G.

 

[Bogard]

That's extremely interesting. It would put Hiruzen and Minato very high on the top 10 list, and make them virtually unbeatable aside from the Juubi Jins and maybe Obito who can become intangible (though of course, they can always be killed before using it).

It's not that. There is a timelimit after the sealing jutsu [

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]. The downside of the jutsu will fire back at the original clone or not. Otherwise we would call Minato or Hiruzen stupid for not using it with clones against Orochimaru or Kyubi when they are both clone users

My thoughts exactly. The winner is the last man standing.

So Minato solos?

The problem with RDS is that it requires the user to subdue the opponent. There's no such drawback with 8G.

The reaper hand is invisible for the opponent. It doesn't matter if he gets subdued or not if he doesn't even see a single thing

 

[Disquiet]

The problem with RDS is that it requires the user to subdue the opponent. There's no such drawback with 8G.

But that's an entirely different argument.

This seems to be a black and white scenario: Last man standing=Winner

It's not that. There is a timelimit after the sealing jutsu [

You must be registered for see links

]. The downside of the jutsu will fire back at the original clone or not. Otherwise we would call Minato or Hiruzen stupid for not using it with clones against Orochimaru or Kyubi when they are both clone users

So Minato solos?

I actually agree. Though still, if Hiruzen can use clones to escape immediate death (which would have to be the argument presented for someone claiming it kills you instantly), then that means it's usable in a VS match if Gai's 8 gates is allowed.

 

[AGoodBoy]

stupid thread. RDS kills you long after the fact yet your bullshit bias says it's a draw.
Hashi and tobirama were both killed and sealed

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. What happened to hiruzen? He continued fighting.

RDS is a win too by your logic. If i ever say minato wins a VS with RDS, you better not come say it's a draw.

 

[Touken]

The reaper hand is invisible for the opponent. It doesn't matter if he gets subdued or not if he doesn't even see a single thing

This bears the implication that the opponent's not gonna do anything to Minato. In the heat of a battle, it's practically impossible to pull off RDS, mainly because the opponent's constantly applying pressure. That's why it's practical to subdue the opponent before using RDS. For example, if Minato decided to use RDS on Madara without subduing him, the time it'd take for him to execute the hand seals and command the Shinigami to take Madara's soul wouldn't be quicker than Madara hitting him with a PS slash.

Using RDS without subduing the opponent makes Minato/Hiruzen sitting ducks, open to any and all attacks.

 

[RicardoA]

the part that matters though is the battle itself. if the opponent is killed in any way before the user, then they lost automatically. it does t matter if the person dies later because of the consequences of a techniqe because it was simply a tool used to defeat his opponent. the fact that ot costs him his life only means that he now has a timer to best his opponent, and he has to beat that timer to defeat his opponent in order to win.

I get what you're saying, but for me that's not the definition of a clean victory.
I see a victory when for example character A kills character B and is able to proceed its existance for the rest of its mortal lifespan.
Lets consider the original Gai vs Gokage example. He may win the battle, but he has lost the match. His death is a consequence of his opponent being stronger than his regular self. In order to beat them, he has to beat himself. Cause and consequence, w/o a battle nobody would've died, its all related and comes down to the battle itself.
Battles aren't limited by a timer, i don't think that was a good example.
For me a battle ends when shots stop being fired and depending on what's left, a winner is determined. If the gates are still damaging Gai and eventually take his life, its nothing more than a stalemate imo.
I hope i made sense ._.

 

[TrollingSage]

You would have had a valid point if 8 gates doesnt guarantee death. Oh and no one really knows the time limit of using the gates. It could be a few minutes or even hour. That doesn't matter much. If you're talking about a formal competition like say a death match with referees and stuff then yea 8 gates is a win, eventhough you die shortly afterwards. But in actual combat, it depends on the circumstances and perspective.
In my opinion , you cant say character A is stronger than character B if character A has to resort to a suicide technique. So Gai isn't "stronger" than any opponent he needs 8 gates to beat.

 

[Bogard]

This bears the implication that the opponent's not gonna do anything to Minato. In the heat of a battle, it's practically impossible to pull off RDS, mainly because the opponent's constantly applying pressure. That's why it's practical to subdue the opponent before using RDS. For example, if Minato decided to use RDS on Madara without subduing him, the time it'd take for him to execute the hand seals and command the Shinigami to take Madara's soul wouldn't be quicker than Madara hitting him with a PS slash.

Using RDS without subduing the opponent makes Minato/Hiruzen sitting ducks, open to any and all attacks.

Funny how you say a teleporter can't get time Lol. You use handseals for majority of techniques in this manga and it doesn't stop ninjas from using them in battle. Seriously this excuse is laughable at best

Anyway by that logic i could also say, 8Gates doesn't kill the opponent. It's the 8gate user who should try his best to kill the opponent before dying because the moment opening the final gate, he basically becomes a dead walking body. If the opponent smh avoid the danger/flees the battlefield, the result is Gai dying and opponent surviving, so he wins?

RDS doesn't slow you down. It's basically a support summon waiting for your order to cast the seal. The moment you summon it, it's the user who decides when to use the seal. You can move everywhere you want even after summoning it

You're not forced to subdue the opponent as well to seal him. Minato used a long range version of the RDS and it sealed half Kyubi instantly [

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]

You're going off-topic here. We're talking about the possibility to remain alive after defeating the opponent and in this context it's no different than 8gates

 

[Haizaki]

Well agreed...the reason why people say it's a draw is because they know with that power Gai is far above their favorites..so rather they just don't agree even if it makes sense
Good thread though

 

[Bogard]

Well agreed...the reason why people say it's a draw is because they know with that power Gai is far above their favorites..so rather they just don't agree even if it makes sense
Good thread though

Well i guess Minato solos then. I'll start saying RDS gg in every versus threads now

 

[fastrthnwind]

I get what you're saying, but for me that's not the definition of a clean victory.
I see a victory when for example character A kills character B and is able to proceed its existance for the rest of its mortal lifespan.
Lets consider the original Gai vs Gokage example. He may win the battle, but he has lost the match. His death is a consequence of his opponent being stronger than his regular self. In order to beat them, he has to beat himself. Cause and consequence, w/o a battle nobody would've died, its all related and comes down to the battle itself.
Battles aren't limited by a timer, i don't think that was a good example.
For me a battle ends when shots stop being fired and depending on what's left, a winner is determined. If the gates are still damaging Gai and eventually take his life, its nothing more than a stalemate imo.
I hope i made sense ._.

the thing is, guy will still live for a certain amount of time after he beats his opponent, but all he did was decrease his mortal lifespan to however long the gates will last. this was what i meant when i was talking about it being only about the battle. it doesnt matter if the person lives another day or another year or even another ten minutes because we all die eventually, its just that guy chose to use a technique that will grant him power defeat his opponent at the cost of his life, which means that his mortal lifespan was reduced from however long it would have been naturally to however long the gates would last, which is why i added the part about the timer.

since he wont know exactly when his body will expire, he is simply going to try his best to defeat his opponent as quickly as possible, and if he has time leftover before he dies from the effects of the gates, then he had won the match officially. nothing else would matter so long as he survives longer than his opponent, since there are too many variables to consider afterwards that may also cause his death outside of battle or even save his life (ex:it is possible that he could even be resucitated by the full power of tsunades creation rebirth moments after collapsing to the effects of the gate or even succummbed to a disease he never knew he had that ended his life before the gates did.)

In my opinion , you cant say character A is stronger than character B if character A has to resort to a suicide technique. So Gai isn't "stronger" than any opponent he needs 8 gates to beat.

the thing is, the 8 gates allow a person to use their bodys full potential, so technically, if they can beat a person with the 8 gates then they can be considered stronger than their opponent because they couldnt survive them at their strongest.

you might counter and say the same for everypne else, but the matter about the gates is that you have to train tour body to use them, and if you cant use them then you cannot access that power and it cannot be considered as part of your actual full power that you are capable of using.

 

[Draegod]

That's extremely interesting. It would put Hiruzen and Minato very high on the top 10 list, and make them virtually unbeatable aside from the Juubi Jins and maybe Obito who can become intangible (though of course, they can always be killed before using it).



@Underline, we can't be sure, keep in mind that we can't get a real sense of the time from the panels. And if it's guaranteed to kill you, that would mean even if it's deactivated, you'll still die <--- We don't know if that's within 10-20 mins. Also, keep in mind that Hiruzen summoned RDS sometime before sealing Tobirama and Hiruzen.


@Bold, as we saw, the RDS is capable of sealing people before the ritual is completed (sealed Tobirama and Hiruzen). That means, they can 'defeat' their opponent before it's completed. This is equivalent to Gai defeating his opponent before he dies.

Again you would have to show me when the ritual is complete to say it is equal to gates. When Hiruzen and minato used it the ritual was not complete and the opp was not defeated or sealed (manga fact). Gates isn't a ritual, hell you don't even have to kill the opponents in gates you have options. RDS is seal and nothing else (that is why Hiruzen didn't care about being stabbed). So to be valid you would have to show me the Reaper gone opponent seal and the user still standing to be valid.

But that's an entirely different argument.

This seems to be a black and white scenario: Last man standing=Winner



I actually agree. Though still, if Hiruzen can use clones to escape immediate death (which would have to be the argument presented for someone claiming it kills you instantly), then that means it's usable in a VS match if Gai's 8 gates is allowed.

And again you would have to show clones being used on the intended target to have a point. Remember it is a ritual with a goal in place.

You would have had a valid point if 8 gates doesnt guarantee death. Oh and no one really knows the time limit of using the gates. It could be a few minutes or even hour. That doesn't matter much. If you're talking about a formal competition like say a death match with referees and stuff then yea 8 gates is a win, eventhough you die shortly afterwards. But in actual combat, it depends on the circumstances and perspective.
In my opinion , you cant say character A is stronger than character B if character A has to resort to a suicide technique. So Gai isn't "stronger" than any opponent he needs 8 gates to beat.

Agreed, but you get what i'm saying.

Well i guess Minato solos then. I'll start saying RDS gg in every versus threads now

If he can live after the RDS has left then yes. ^_^

 

[Bogard]

If he can live after the RDS has left then yes. ^_^

The opponent can be sealed long before the God of Death decides to go himself, so the opponent is defeated long before God of death goes and the user dies. It's the same logic you're applying with Gai here. Seriously your double standard here is becoming ridiculous

 

[RustledJimmies]

It's funny how every time C0 or RDS are used in VS threads they're always considered a draw, but 8th gate suddenly became an exception .

 

[Disquiet]

Again you would have to show me when the ritual is complete to say it is equal to gates. When Hiruzen and minato used it the ritual was not complete and the opp was not defeated or sealed (manga fact). Gates isn't a ritual, hell you don't even have to kill the opponents in gates you have options. RDS is seal and nothing else (that is why Hiruzen didn't care about being stabbed). So to be valid you would have to show me the Reaper gone opponent seal and the user still standing to be valid.



And again you would have to show clones being used on the intended target to have a point. Remember it is a ritual with a goal in place.

I'm not sure why. After reading your OP, you're saying the last man standing is the winner. It's a fact that Hizuren sealed two souls (who was just as much opponents as Oro was). You say it wasn't complete (evident by saying show me when it's completed), proving that it can seal souls before it's completed.

If it's really as simple as last person standing wins, then I'm not sure what more have to be shown.

 

[fastrthnwind]

It's funny how every time C0 or RDS are used in VS threads they're always considered a draw, but 8th gate suddenly became an exception .

its funny, because if people would read my posts specofically then they would understand why it is an exception

 

[RicardoA]

the thing is, guy will still live for a certain amount of time after he beats his opponent, but all he did was decrease his mortal lifespan to however long the gates will last. this was what i meant when i was talking about it being only about the battle. it doesnt matter if the person lives another day or another year or even another ten minutes because we all die eventually, its just that guy chose to use a technique that will grant him power defeat his opponent at the cost of his life, which means that his mortal lifespan was reduced from however long it would have been naturally to however long the gates would last, which is why i added the part about the timer.

since he wont know exactly when his body will expire, he is simply going to try his best to defeat his opponent as quickly as possible, and if he has time leftover before he dies from the effects of the gates, then he had won the match officially. nothing else would matter so long as he survives longer than his opponent, since there are too many variables to consider afterwards that may also cause his death outside of battle or even save his life (ex:it is possible that he could even be resucitated by the full power of tsunades creation rebirth moments after collapsing to the effects of the gate or even succummbed to a disease he never knew he had that ended his life before the gates did.)

I believe you're thinking of this as a race. The one who finishes it first wins, in the case of a battle the one who dies first wins.
I have to disagree with that view. I don't consider time to be the decider factor on who wins and who loses and i certainly cannot consider suicide the synonym of a victory. It just doesn't make sense to me.
In order to tell you otherwise i think i would be repeating myself (cause and consequence stuff).
All i can say at this point is that this is a very subjective matter, therefore entitled to opinion. We're both simply using a different criteria, that's all.