I am talking about JJ Madara. Precisely. He used Kamui with an MS. Granted he doesn't have the technique, but it still required an eye that didn't have a mutation.
Implying that it has different horns or something as some kind of proof is ... what are you even trying to say here? Madara's PS looks completely different when he's shielding Kurama and when it was used as a stand alone technique:
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In case of Sasuke, the mouth has been completely altered to form a shield over the snout, along with the over all structure:
By the way, I can clearly see the mouth circles and a misshapen horn right above the Tengu nose. If anyone looks closely, they'll be able to see it:
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The horns also lie above the eyes, and the regular PS has much smaller eyes compared to the snout adjustment that completely changed and the fact that the diamond is bigger, because of Naruto as well. Where would he make the horns then?
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Yes, it is a factor and volume of Senjutsu matters a lot. How much was it to warrant it as being more powerful than Madara and Sasuke's PS when it didn't last longer than about a minute? Heck, it goes for his entire pitiful Obito rescue.
I am talking about JJ Madara. You comparing him to a guy that didn't have a drop of Juubi chakra - a chakra, that is volatile, heavy and even Kaguya has to maintain it indefinitely to maintain her own form - is not even a relevant example. JJ Madara not only never used PS, but it was never implied, not even once that he can even use his Sharingan techs. All of this is nothing but an assumption.
Once again. What in the hell are you going on about? I said that Rikudo's Chakra changed how Sasuke's Susanoo looked. That's it. Stop mentioning Iso Susanoo when it's completely irrelevant.
You keep mentioning the time, but the time has nothing to do with the power. The time is because Obito can't stay in Kakashi's body forever. And no, it's not a major factor here since once again, the strength of said chakra is a major part of Susanoo's power, and his chakra when he has Rikudo's power is stronger than Sasuke or Madara's.
Not to mention it was enough to let him form a PS and gain new abilities.
Then instead of replying to the Edo Madara point with "fake eyes", you should've said this from the start. You are only making excuses at this point. Weak ones at that. First you say "JJ Madara being able to revert his Rinnegan to EMS is fanfiction", which is then countered by the fact that Susanoo can be used without reverting, now you are bringing the same old "never happened" argument.
It's already a fact that Madara can use Susanoo. You'd have to actually prove that gaining the Juubi caused him to lose the ability to use his Sharingan techniques, and I don't see, nor do I expect, any proof from your side. I'll wait for an explanation on why the Juubi's chakra has anything to do with anything here.
Once again. What in the hell are you going on about? I said that Rikudo's Chakra changed how Sasuke's Susanoo looked. That's it. Stop mentioning Iso Susanoo when it's completely irrelevant.
You keep mentioning the time, but the time has nothing to do with the power. The time is because Obito can't stay in Kakashi's body forever. And no, it's not a major factor here since once again, the strength of said chakra is a major part of Susanoo's power, and his chakra when he has Rikudo's power is stronger than Sasuke or Madara's.
Not to mention it was enough to let him form a PS and gain new abilities.
Then instead of replying to the Edo Madara point with "fake eyes", you should've said this from the start. You are only making excuses at this point. Weak ones at that. First you say "JJ Madara being able to revert his Rinnegan to EMS is fanfiction", which is then countered by the fact that Susanoo can be used without reverting, now you are bringing the same old "never happened" argument.
It's already a fact that Madara can use Susanoo. You'd have to actually prove that gaining the Juubi caused him to lose the ability to use his Sharingan techniques, and I don't see, nor do I expect, any proof from your side. I'll wait for an explanation on why the Juubi's chakra has anything to do with anything here.
Wait what? This is a joke, right? No, my point was that Iso Susano'o is a garb susano'o. The Tengu nose means that it's most certainly PS used as a shield. Susano'o doesn't have infinite chakra to cover space. Your point is an assumption that Sage chakra changed his PS, when he never created it outside a garb form. Nor does the manga support this notion.
What new abilities?
What? The time is directly co-related to the amount of Senjutsu used. What have you been reading in the manga then? The less time a PS has, the less power output it would have. It's elementary logic.
JJ Madara cannot use PS or any other Sharingan tech. Since the manga doesn't say so, he can't. That's all there is to it.
Wait what? This is a joke, right? No, my point was that Iso Susano'o is a garb susano'o. The Tengu nose means that it's most certainly PS used as a shield. Susano'o doesn't have infinite chakra to cover space. Your point is an assumption that Sage chakra changed his PS, when he never created it outside a garb form. Nor does the manga support this notion.
What new abilities?
What? The time is directly co-related to the amount of Senjutsu used. What have you been reading in the manga then? The less time a PS has, the less power output it would have. It's elementary logic.
JJ Madara cannot use PS or any other Sharingan tech. Since the manga doesn't say so, he can't. That's all there is to it.
If his PS was the same after getting Hagoromos power, then the blade would still be plated. Madara is irrelevant since his blade is the same for Iso and regular. Sasukes isn't, thus the chakra changed his PS .
Kamui Raikri, PS, and Kamui Shuriken
No its not. The senjutsu literally had nothing to do with the time limit. The time limit exists because Obitos ghost/chakra can't stay with him forever. Obito had the same power for God knows how long yet there never was a time limit for him.
Which is based on nothing. Madara can use PS and nothing in the manga states or implies he lost his past jutsu after becoming the JJ, so you can't say that he lost it
Wait what? This is a joke, right? No, my point was that Iso Susano'o is a garb susano'o. The Tengu nose means that it's most certainly PS used as a shield. Susano'o doesn't have infinite chakra to cover space. Your point is an assumption that Sage chakra changed his PS, when he never created it outside a garb form. Nor does the manga support this notion.
What new abilities?
What? The time is directly co-related to the amount of Senjutsu used. What have you been reading in the manga then? The less time a PS has, the less power output it would have. It's elementary logic.
JJ Madara cannot use PS or any other Sharingan tech. Since the manga doesn't say so, he can't. That's all there is to it.
I am talking about JJ Madara. Precisely. He used Kamui with an MS. Granted he doesn't have the technique, but it still required an eye that didn't have a mutation.
If his PS was the same after getting Hagoromos power, then the blade would still be plated. Madara is irrelevant since his blade is the same for Iso and regular. Sasukes isn't, thus the chakra changed his PS .
Kamui Raikri, PS, and Kamui Shuriken
No its not. The senjutsu literally had nothing to do with the time limit. The time limit exists because Obitos ghost/chakra can't stay with him forever. Obito had the same power for God knows how long yet there never was a time limit for him.
Which is based on nothing. Madara can use PS and nothing in the manga states or implies he lost his past jutsu after becoming the JJ, so you can't say that he lost it
Like I said, you have nothing here other than your own assumption. No where in the manga is it even shown that Senjutsu chakra does anything other than add potency and defense to the avatars - Susano'o and Cloaks. It means his PS - though the same in structure - has simply added a nature based energy element that would make it more durable and it will have more power. That is all. Did his V3 Susano'o somehow became something else with the addition of Senjutsu? No. Did BM avatar became something else with the addition of Senjutsu, even the sage's Senjutsu? No. That plated sword argument proves squat.
What? That's his PS arsenal. Sasuke has three of those. Wow, that means a lot. Kamui Raikiri is connected to this PS argument, how exactly?
What a round about argument backed by nothing. Is this your new take on interpretation? Sasuke defeats Kaguya with full Rinnegan mastery. The manga doesn't say otherwise, so I am right. Who cares what the manga has shown, right?
Doubt it as all it requires is a bit of common sense. Given that one is MS without any further mutation and the other is a full Rinnegan mutation. Madara seemed to be incapable of using any Sharingan techs when he attained the Juubi. Or in other words, use the other techs other than the mutation he carried. Without any proof for this ambiguous statement, it's a missed and silly shot in the dark. I am going to need more than just claims to justify this.
Like I said, you have nothing here other than your own assumption. No where in the manga is it even shown that Senjutsu chakra does anything other than add potency and defense to the avatars - Susano'o and Cloaks. It means his PS - though the same in structure - has simply added a nature based energy element that would make it more durable and it will have more power. That is all. Did his V3 Susano'o somehow became something else with the addition of Senjutsu? No. Did BM avatar became something else with the addition of Senjutsu, even the sage's Senjutsu? No. That plated sword argument proves squat.
What? That's his PS arsenal. Sasuke has three of those. Wow, that means a lot. Kamui Raikiri is connected to this PS argument, how exactly?
What a round about argument backed by nothing. Is this your new take on interpretation? Sasuke defeats Kaguya with full Rinnegan mastery. The manga doesn't say otherwise, so I am right. Who cares what the manga has shown, right?
It's not just Senjutsu chakra. It's Rikudo's Senjutsu Chakra. Mentioning BSM Naruto's Senjutsu? A complete different type of chakra? Irrelevant. Mentioning BM Naruto's Avatar? Irrelevant. Not the same thing as Susanoo. Kurama is a separate entity with it's own appearance. Susanoo isn't.
@bold: Why? Because you say so? Once again. Sasuke's sword changed. He got horns, and he got a second sword despite his regular EMS PS not having a single horn, having only one sword, which was plated and not the regular PS sword, and it has holes across the jawline. Unless you have an explanation for these changes, then it's clear what did it, Hagoromo's chakra. How many posts in now and I'm not seeing any form of a counter argument from you on any point.
I said that Kakashi got 3 new abilities when he got Hagoromo's chakra. You asked which ones, and I posted them. It's really as simple as that.
Let's not twist logic around to make it seem like it doesn't make sense, when in fact, you are the one who doesn't make sense. Manga never said Sasuke can beat Kaguya, nor did it ever hint or imply that he could do so. Manga has already shown that Madara has the ability to use Susanoo. Unless you can actually prove that the Juubi caused him to lose it, everything you say on the matter is irrelevant. Didn't come here to see your baseless opinions.
It's not just Senjutsu chakra. It's Rikudo's Senjutsu Chakra. Mentioning BSM Naruto's Senjutsu? A complete different type of chakra? Irrelevant. Mentioning BM Naruto's Avatar? Irrelevant. Not the same thing as Susanoo. Kurama is a separate entity with it's own appearance. Susanoo isn't.
@bold: Why? Because you say so? Once again. Sasuke's sword changed. He got horns, and he got a second sword despite his regular EMS PS not having a single horn, having only one sword, which was plated and not the regular PS sword, and it has holes across the jawline. Unless you have an explanation for these changes, then it's clear what did it, Hagoromo's chakra. How many posts in now and I'm not seeing any form of a counter argument from you on any point.
I said that Kakashi got 3 new abilities when he got Hagoromo's chakra. You asked which ones, and I posted them. It's really as simple as that.
Let's not twist logic around to make it seem like it doesn't make sense, when in fact, you are the one who doesn't make sense. Manga never said Sasuke can beat Kaguya, nor did it ever hint or imply that he could do so. Manga has already shown that Madara has the ability to use Susanoo. Unless you can actually prove that the Juubi caused him to lose it, everything you say on the matter is irrelevant. Didn't come here to see your baseless opinions.
Funny, because I don't ever remember reading in the manga or the databook that the Sage gave him Senjutsu Chakra. That was for Naruto and Naruto only, which allots him the use of "Knowledge of all things and exceptionally good chakra control". If he had given him that, then he would have been able to use the Sage of the Six Paths mode like Naruto.
Different type of chakra? Since when? Senjutsu on all fronts remains the same in its basic principles. Just like all Cloaks and all Susano'o remain the same at the crux. It's really funny and ironic that you are calling the both points irrelevant when PS and BM are both manifestations of chakra outwardly. Still irrelevant, the sage claims and the flimsy argument that he changed his PS.
Here is what the databook has to say:
Six Paths Sage Mode (六道仙人モード, Rikudō Sennin Mōdo), Sage Justu / Ninjutsu used by Naruto. Most of this page is too blurry to read, so I can only translate some of it.
The big header basically says it's a gift from the ancestor of shinobi that grants a supernatural mental state allowing for the complete, universal comprehension of all things.
From what I can make out of the main body of text, it says that this is a technique that allows the user to quickly grasp the nature of chakra with the skill of a well-studied, highly sensitive master. It also seems to have a bunch of philosphical stuff about the Sage of Six Paths which is hard to make out because I can only read about half of it.
Top caption says that the caster has an unconcious/automatic mastery of the Sage of Six Path's "ability to levitate" (浮遊する能力, fuyū suru nōryoku).
Second caption says, "Kicking a Truthseeker Orb! Surpassing Kurama Mode, his vast chakra lets him perform this risky stunt!"
Third caption says, "His reaction speed meets or exceeds that of Madara in his Ten Tails Jinchuriki Form. It's the height of sensory ability!"
The bottom left caption says, "To acquire the power of the ten tailed beasts is the same as possessing the power of the Sage of Six Paths, so it is accompanied by the same Truthseeker Orbs.
Where does it say that this Senjutsu chakra is different? Right, no where.
Because you say so? Other than your claims, I have yet to see anything from you from the manga itself:
- But Senjutsu Sage chakra is different: No proof. Nothing but a far-fetched assumption that is neither backed by the manga nor the databook. It's simply a powerful Senjutsu chakra. Full stop.
- But he changed his PS: No proof, when he never made a stand alone PS that didn't shroud Kurama back then.
- He had no horns: When he didn't have room to make horns. Sans common sense, when horns are right above the eyes and below the diamond and the diamond was too large and so was the snout. A PS doesn't have infinite chakra to spare or shroud. So the structural deformities would always be there.
What does that have to do with what I said? He has his PS arsenal, just like every other damned PS. How does that fit into this discussion?
Let's me keep it mighty simple then: does the manga imply, show, obliquely state, illustrate, allude, hint, or state anything that confirms the claim that JJ Madara can use Sharingan techs? Yes or no. I don't care about any explanations anymore, since you don't seem to have any.
Funny, because I don't ever remember reading in the manga or the databook that the Sage gave him Senjutsu Chakra. That was for Naruto and Naruto only, which allots him the use of "Knowledge of all things and exceptionally good chakra control". If he had given him that, then he would have been able to use the Sage of the Six Paths mode like Naruto.
Different type of chakra? Since when? Senjutsu on all fronts remains the same in its basic principles. Just like all Cloaks and all Susano'o remain the same at the crux. It's really funny and ironic that you are calling the both points irrelevant when PS and BM are both manifestations of chakra outwardly. Still irrelevant, the sage claims and the flimsy argument that he changed his PS.
Where does it say that this Senjutsu chakra is different? Right, no where.
Because you say so? Other than your claims, I have yet to see anything from you from the manga itself:
- But Senjutsu Sage chakra is different: No proof. Nothing but a far-fetched assumption that is neither backed by the manga nor the databook. It's simply a powerful Senjutsu chakra. Full stop.
- But he changed his PS: No proof, when he never made a stand alone PS that didn't shroud Kurama back then.
- He had no horns: When he didn't have room to make horns. Sans common sense, when horns are right above the eyes and below the diamond and the diamond was too large and so was the snout. A PS doesn't have infinite chakra to spare or shroud. So the structural deformities would always be there.
What does that have to do with what I said? He has his PS arsenal, just like every other damned PS. How does that fit into this discussion?
Let's me keep it mighty simple then: does the manga imply, show, obliquely state, illustrate, allude, hint, or state anything that confirms the claim that JJ Madara can use Sharingan techs? Yes or no. I don't care about any explanations anymore, since you don't seem to have any.
What in the world are you even talking about? Naruto and Sasuke got the same thing, it only manifested different abilities within them. Hagoromo split his chakra in half and gave it to them. What Kakashi and Sasuke have is the same type of chakra.
Nope. Six Paths Chakra or Six Path Sage Chakra is NOT the same as regular Senjutsu. They have shown to be completely different, multiple times. The fact that Naruto gets brand new abilities when he uses Six Paths Senjutsu is proof enough that this "they are all the same in their basic principles" nonsense is nothing but bull. PS and BM being manifestations of chakra changes nothing. BM Kurama is a separate entity with it's own physical form. Susanoo isn't.
Not sure why you bothered with the DB when it mentions nothing about this topic at all let alone anything that'd prove your flimsy point.
-It's Hagoromo's chakra. That makes it different than the regular Senjutsu Chakra. Hagoromo's chakra has changed Sasuke's PS. Senjutsu didn't. Hagoromo's chakra made Naruto's Avatar larger. Senjutsu didn't. Hagoromo's Senjutsu lets Naruto fly. Regular Senjutsu doesn't. Gudo Dama are exclusive to those with Six Paths Senjutsu.
-Wrong. Please stop ignoring the Manga. It's getting pathetic. Not making a standalone PS means jack shit when the sword does not change shape from the standalone. Madara's Iso and standalone PS have the SAME EXACT sword. Sasuke's Iso PS has a plated sword, so his standalone would have a plated sword. Yet his standalone after getting Rikudo's power has two swords that look like Madara's. That is a change.
It's proof that Hagoromo's chakra is not the same as regular Senjutsu, and it's proof that Kakashi didn't get some insignificant amount.
Madara has used PS, and unless you can prove that the Juubi made him lose that ability, you have no point. That simple. The only one giving BS explanations on this point is you and you alone. I should be telling you that your explanations as to why Madara can't use it don't concern me nor do I care about them.
Your logic effectively boils down to "he didn't show it, so he can't use it". With no real explanation as to why he can't even though it's an ability he's already shown, but hasn't used since he got the Juubi. What's next? Madara can't utilize the Six Paths Jutsu because he didn't show it?
