Lel, Madara only has more chakra thanks to the Juubi. Sasuke has all of his Rinnegan jutsu excluding Limbo, and he can use his MS unlike Madara.
It did because the Buddha Statue couldn't be used after that, Madara and Hashirama are equals in terms of power no matter how you lookg at it so their strongest jutsu would obviously be of equal strength
How are they equal if Madara had to combine Kurama + his PS to even push Hashirama as close as he did?
And I don't even get this whole debate I'm having with you anyway. If you think Madaras EMS PS is stronger than Sasukes and equal to the Buddha then you would be saying Naruto and Sasuke are still weaker than Hashirama and EMS Madara and we both know that's not true.
Sasuke has rikudo chakra fueling his PS and feats back up its superiority, a non rikudo PS isn't going to compare.
Unlikely. There is no proof in the manga that JJ Madara can revert back his Rinnegan eyes to EMS and use techs.
Look above.
What the hell are you talking about: when did it change form? Didn't I tell you that day that there is no form above PS, and a regular PS has wings? If you are talking about Kakashi here as well, then Obito only took out a small Senjutsu chakra, and it strengthened the Doujutsu beyond the normal threshold, allowing Obito to possess Kakashi's body and put out a PS straight away, bypassing all the processes that go with it:
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Why? Because Sage's Senjutsu allows for the "ultimate knowledge and control on chakra". There is no 'other' reasoning behind it.
No where in the manga was it even remotely implied that Kakashi's 50 sec long PS even remotely matches EMS Sasuke and Madara's PS, let alone be right under Sasuke's Senjutsu based PS.
It has, when? JJ Madara using Sharingan techs is stuff of fiction by reverting the Rinnegan back to EMS. But believe whatever you want, man.
His Susanoo got horns and holes on it's face. And it got a second sword to match the first sword, which also changed from a plated blade to a blade identical to what Madara has That's changing form. Not sure why you are going on about upgrades or a form above PS when nobody mentioned that. Ever.
Which is what I already stated. Kakashi's PS is made w/ Rikudo's Chakra. Rikudo's Chakra>Sasuke or Madara's chakra. Thus his Susanoo is superior. It's really that simple. This whole post and you didn't even give a single good reason for me to believe EMS Sasuke or Madara's Susanoo is stronger.
I was talking about Susanoo. As for Madara. I want to hear one logical reason why he wouldn't be able to use Sharingan techniques, or better yet, why wouldn't be able to use Susanoo when Susanoo can be used regardless of whether Rinnegan or EMS is active. Edo Madara is proof of that.
You do realize the first time we ever saw him use Perfect Susano'o his Rinnegan was activated and he's able to use Susano'o while blind. He can switch between EMS and Rinnegan as we've seen him do multiple times.
His Susanoo got horns and holes on it's face. And it got a second sword to match the first sword, which also changed from a plated blade to a blade identical to what Madara has That's changing form. Not sure why you are going on about upgrades or a form above PS when nobody mentioned that. Ever.
Which is what I already stated. Kakashi's PS is made w/ Rikudo's Chakra. Rikudo's Chakra>Sasuke or Madara's chakra. Thus his Susanoo is superior. It's really that simple. This whole post and you didn't even give a single good reason for me to believe EMS Sasuke or Madara's Susanoo is stronger.
I was talking about Susanoo. As for Madara. I want to hear one logical reason why he wouldn't be able to use Sharingan techniques, or better yet, why wouldn't be able to use Susanoo when Susanoo can be used regardless of whether Rinnegan or EMS is active. Edo Madara is proof of that.
He never made a stand alone PS before that. There were gaps in Madara's PS as when he shielded Kurama. All of this is nothing but an assumption. There is no such thing as a PS above EMS PS. You will be hard-pressed to bring out any proof other than claims. Already proved to you that day how PS can be molded into different shapes. That doesn't mean it isn't PS
How much chakra is there to warrant a place above EMS Madara and Sasuke's PS? Not much. The chakra - that tiny tiny chakra - only allowed for a bypass and the 'knowledge of all things' that Senjutsu is known for, which is why Obito even stabilized the chakra so quickly to produce one on MS. Proof? Neither did you. It had a cough of Senjutsu chakra, so, that means it's okay to put it above EMS PS? Why?
The ball is in your court. Show me a page. Without a page, you have no logic. Edo Madara had fake eyes. Is that your proof? Yeah, still no.
You do realize the first time we ever saw him use Perfect Susano'o his Rinnegan was activated and he's able to use Susano'o while blind. He can switch between EMS and Rinnegan as we've seen him do multiple times.
He never made a stand alone PS before that. There were gaps in Madara's PS as when he shielded Kurama. All of this is nothing but an assumption. There is no such thing as a PS above EMS PS. You will be hard-pressed to bring out any proof other than claims. Already proved to you that day how PS can be molded into different shapes. That doesn't mean it isn't PS
How much chakra is there to warrant a place above EMS Madara and Sasuke's PS? Not much. The chakra - that tiny tiny chakra - only allowed for a bypass and the 'knowledge of all things' that Senjutsu is known for, which is why Obito even stabilized the chakra so quickly to produce one on MS. Proof? Neither did you. It had a cough of Senjutsu chakra, so, that means it's okay to put it above EMS PS? Why?
The ball is in your court. Show me a page. Without a page, you have no logic. Edo Madara had fake eyes. Is that your proof? Yeah, still no.
Fake Rinnegan and eyes. How many times did he use EMS when he got the Rinnegan and Juubi?
Why would he go to a weaker form? Madara doesn't even use any of his Mangekyou techniques besides Susano'o anyways. We've also seen him use Susano'o without eyes, meaning the key to using it is the brain's special chakra, not the eyes, so it doesn't matter whether or not he is in a Sharingan state.
Why would he go to a weaker form? Madara doesn't even use any of his Mangekyou techniques besides Susano'o anyways. We've also seen him use Susano'o without eyes, meaning the key to using it is the brain's special chakra, not the eyes, so it doesn't matter whether or not he is in a Sharingan state.
I am going by what the manga has shown. Without proof, this is an assumption. You can even bring out an implication, anything from JJ Madara that states so.
I am going by what the manga has shown. Without proof, this is an assumption. You can even bring out an implication, anything from JJ Madara that states so.
1. He was able to use Susano'o without eyes
2. Why wouldn't he be able to bring out his eyes' full power if he was able to use Obito's Kamui?
You state that mine is an assumption, but the truth is that your statement is even more so one. You're only basing the claim on that he didn't show it while being a host. That means your obligated to believe he also couldn't use basic moves such as the fire-style or the Wood Clone Technique. I'm guessing you also think Sasuke can't use Planetary Devastation anymore because he hasn't shown it?
1. He was able to use Susano'o without eyes
2. Why wouldn't he be able to bring out his eyes' full power if he was able to use Obito's Kamui?
You state that mine is an assumption, but the truth is that your statement is even more so one. You're only basing the claim on that he didn't show it while being a host. That means your obligated to believe he also couldn't use basic moves such as the fire-style or the Wood Clone Technique. I'm guessing you also think Sasuke can't use Planetary Devastation anymore because he hasn't shown it?
We are talking about JJ Madara here, not Rinnegan Madara. There is no proof that a JJ can use Sharingan or switch eyes if they went through the natural mutation. He didn't show it, so, I will stick to that.
We are talking about JJ Madara here, not Rinnegan Madara. There is no proof that a JJ can use Sharingan or switch eyes if they went through the natural mutation. He didn't show it, so, I will stick to that.
You obviously didn't read my post. Madara doesn't need the Sharingan to use Susano'o. You also said there's no proof of a host using the Sharingan but Obito used his to predict Sasuke's Amaterasu and Madara used Obito's for Kamui.
He never made a stand alone PS before that. There were gaps in Madara's PS as when he shielded Kurama. All of this is nothing but an assumption. There is no such thing as a PS above EMS PS. You will be hard-pressed to bring out any proof other than claims. Already proved to you that day how PS can be molded into different shapes. That doesn't mean it isn't PS
How much chakra is there to warrant a place above EMS Madara and Sasuke's PS? Not much. The chakra - that tiny tiny chakra - only allowed for a bypass and the 'knowledge of all things' that Senjutsu is known for, which is why Obito even stabilized the chakra so quickly to produce one on MS. Proof? Neither did you. It had a cough of Senjutsu chakra, so, that means it's okay to put it above EMS PS? Why?
The ball is in your court. Show me a page. Without a page, you have no logic. Edo Madara had fake eyes. Is that your proof? Yeah, still no.
Another waste of a paragraph since I never said there was a form above PS.
Much chakra? Size isn't the major factor here. The strength of said chakra is the factor, and the strength of Kakashi's chakra after getting Rikudo's chakra>EMS Sasuke or Madara's chakra. Thus his Susanoo is superior. That simple.
What's funny is that you can't even explain why the hell this matters. Another funny part is that Revived Madara already used Susanoo w/ his Rinnegan active.
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Though I fully expect another excuse. Tell me why the Rinnegan being fake matters and then you'll have a point.
You obviously didn't read my post. Madara doesn't need the Sharingan to use Susano'o. You also said there's no proof of a host using the Sharingan but Obito used his to predict Sasuke's Amaterasu and Madara used Obito's for Kamui.
I am talking about JJ Madara. Precisely. He used Kamui with an MS. Granted he doesn't have the technique, but it still required an eye that didn't have a mutation.
Another waste of a paragraph since I never said there was a form above PS.
Much chakra? Size isn't the major factor here. The strength of said chakra is the factor, and the strength of Kakashi's chakra after getting Rikudo's chakra>EMS Sasuke or Madara's chakra. Thus his Susanoo is superior. That simple.
What's funny is that you can't even explain why the hell this matters. Another funny part is that Revived Madara already used Susanoo w/ his Rinnegan active.
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Though I fully expect another excuse. Tell me why the Rinnegan being fake matters and then you'll have a point.
Implying that it has different horns or something as some kind of proof is ... what are you even trying to say here? Madara's PS looks completely different when he's shielding Kurama and when it was used as a stand alone technique:
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In case of Sasuke, the mouth has been completely altered to form a shield over the snout, along with the over all structure:
By the way, I can clearly see the mouth circles and a misshapen horn right above the Tengu nose. If anyone looks closely, they'll be able to see it:
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The horns also lie above the eyes, and the regular PS has much smaller eyes compared to the snout adjustment that completely changed and the fact that the diamond is bigger, because of Naruto as well. Where would he make the horns then?
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Yes, it is a factor and volume of Senjutsu matters a lot. How much was it to warrant it as being more powerful than Madara and Sasuke's PS when it didn't last longer than about a minute? Heck, it goes for his entire pitiful Obito rescue.
I am talking about JJ Madara. You comparing him to a guy that didn't have a drop of Juubi chakra - a chakra, that is volatile, heavy and even Kaguya has to maintain it indefinitely to maintain her own form - is not even a relevant example. JJ Madara not only never used PS, but it was never implied, not even once that he can even use his Sharingan techs. All of this is nothing but an assumption.
I am talking about JJ Madara. Precisely. He used Kamui with an MS. Granted he doesn't have the technique, but it still required an eye that didn't have a mutation.
Implying that it has different horns or something as some kind of proof is ... what are you even trying to say here? Madara's PS looks completely different when he's shielding Kurama and when it was used as a stand alone technique:
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In case of Sasuke, the mouth has been completely altered to form a shield over the snout, along with the over all structure:
By the way, I can clearly see the mouth circles and a misshapen horn right above the Tengu nose. If anyone looks closely, they'll be able to see it:
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The horns also lie above the eyes, and the regular PS has much smaller eyes compared to the snout adjustment that completely changed and the fact that the diamond is bigger, because of Naruto as well. Where would he make the horns then?
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Yes, it is a factor and volume of Senjutsu matters a lot. How much was it to warrant it as being more powerful than Madara and Sasuke's PS when it didn't last longer than about a minute? Heck, it goes for his entire pitiful Obito rescue.
I am talking about JJ Madara. You comparing him to a guy that didn't have a drop of Juubi chakra - a chakra, that is volatile, heavy and even Kaguya has to maintain it indefinitely to maintain her own form - is not even a relevant example. JJ Madara not only never used PS, but it was never implied, not even once that he can even use his Sharingan techs. All of this is nothing but an assumption.
You say the reason he can't use it is because the Rinnegan is a mutation, but we've been explained to by Tobirama that the chakra to use Susano'o resides in the brain, and was shown by Madara that it is true, not requiring eyes. He then even goes on to use Susano'o with one Rinnegan to protect himself from Tobirama's water technique. Why would becoming the host of the ten-tails disable his brain? Why would it limit his eyes?
You say the reason he can't use it is because the Rinnegan is a mutation, but we've been explained to by Tobirama that the chakra to use Susano'o resides in the brain, and was shown by Madara that it is true, not requiring eyes. He then even goes on to use Susano'o with one Rinnegan to protect himself from Tobirama's water technique. Why would becoming the host of the ten-tails disable his brain? Why would it limit his eyes?
Not one thing suggests that the host is in constant pressure to contain the ten-tails. You would need proof of this. Obito couldn't handle it at first, but only after one overtaking, he handled it as if it were nothing. Madara and Kaguya especially showed absolutely no problems. The only thing the beast is doing, is powering the host. If anything you're suggesting he should be able to bring out a more powerful Susano'o.
Not one thing suggests that the host is in constant pressure to contain the ten-tails. You would need proof of this. Obito couldn't handle it at first, but only after one overtaking, he handled it as if it were nothing. Madara and Kaguya especially showed absolutely no problems. The only thing the beast is doing, is powering the host. If anything you're suggesting he should be able to bring out a more powerful Susano'o.
How was he handling it? It means it requires constant control. Kaguya got hit with the Rasangans and immediately lost her form when the chakra resonated with the Rasangan chakra.
Like I said, proof. Stating that "just because the manga doesn't say he cannot" isn't proof. Anyhow, this discussion is over from my end.
How was he handling it? It means it requires constant control. Kaguya got hit with the Rasangans and immediately lost her form when the chakra resonated with the Rasangan chakra.
Like I said, proof. Stating that "just because the manga doesn't say he cannot" isn't proof. Anyhow, this discussion is over from my end.
No, if it took so much energy to control it at first, and then you don't see him struggling at all, that means it does not rquire constant control. Your Kaguya example is a bad one at that. That doesn't at all suggest the need of constant control. That just shows what a reaction with their chakra does. That would be similar to saying humans are constantly struggling to stand, however he do it passively without trying. Of course we're going to fall though if we get pushed.
Be it what you may, the fact is that I'm not the one who needs proof. You, part of the less than ten people, who actually believes he wouldn't be able to use Susano'o, would need proof. Even the newest game is giving him Susano'o.
