Sasuke was an Awful Brother

[SkyGodHorus]

This was well done, the only thing I would change would be Itachi's identity. He IS a Leaf Shinobi, and that's all he ever desired. That's all he ever saw himself as. Simplistic as it is, that's all some of us in the real world require, even myself.

Yes, but Itachi himself is just as flawed a person as anyone else in the manga, regardless of how much of a savior he comes off. While I for the most part agree killing off the Uchiha was probably the best action to save the leaf at the time, Itachi should not have manipulated Sasuke, entrusted his own ideals and his legacy in him rather than letting himfollow his own path, ruined his childhood and allowed him to go with Orochimaru. Attempting to brainwash Sasuke with Koto Amatsukami for his own misdeeds was immoral as well, robbing him of his free will, ironically paralleling the infinite tsukuyomi. He himself admitted this and I'm happy he did because it contradicted his selflessly defined character.

Sasuke has done far more good deeds in this manga than bad. He saved his friends' lives and acknowledged them several times in both the first and second halves of the series, sealed Orochimaru and released his prisoners, refused to kill anyone for him, killed Deidara, helped Itachi defeat Kabuto, which released Edo tensei and saved thousands, revived the hokages and with theirs and Naruto's help defeated Obito and saved the whole alliance. Now he wants to be Hokage in order to change the world rather than just exacting his revenge.

 

[Chie]

Till the end, he kept stating that no matter what, 'he's still the Leaf's Shinobi' - this shows that he has no real identity beyond that forged in the Light of 'will of fire'. Sasuke has created an identity for himself, away from the ethos and dogmas of the Leaf Village, where Shady politics keep the system afloat. Sasuke found something beyond that, an ideal - a restoration of his Clan's honour by bringing down the man that ended it.

Itachi's identity and character traits are far stale, stagnant, and run-of-the-mill in comparison. The fact that Itachi ignored Shisui's confessions that this man stole his Sharingan, makes him that much more despicable. I hear people blubbering how selfless this character was, yet truth be told, Itachi was the most selfish individual in the entire manga. He didn't care about the circumstances surrounding the Coup and chose to side with the Leaf, as it supported his own brand of idealism. It's far more irritating and redundant as a mode of characterization than anything else.

In fact, had he himself been trapped in Izanagi's loop to discover himself, he never would have found anything to define as an identity marker for himself. What is Itachi's identity? The answer is, nothing. This is why Sasuke's responses and reactions make sense - they may be outrageous, audacious, and vehement, but they are real and they helped him forge his own identity, which Itachi has always lacked. Even after his death, he's nothing more than a man who sought Leaf's shade and label. An empty man, sans Self.

Here is your criticism.

This was directed at HiddenSound, but I just wanted to reply because I can.

I agree with you when you say that Sasuke's and Itachi's ideals differ, therefore naturally there would be conflict. But you also stated that Itachi had no identity and that Sasuke does have one. The only difference between Itachi's and Sasuke's identities is the side they chose. If Itachi himself were stuck in Izanami, his identity would still be a Leaf shinobi, just as if Sasuke were stuck in Izanami he would be an avenger. That is them. Sasuke's entire life revolves around avenging his clan whereas Itachi's revolved around protecting Konoha. If you state that Itachi has no identity due to giving his life up for Konoha, then you also have to admit that Sasuke has no identity because he gave up his life only for vengeance. Both of their lives revolve around one aspect, not just Itachi's.

About Shisui, Itachi didn't ignore what he said. He took it into account. Danzo being able to get Shisui's eye just further proved that he wasn't afraid to use force against the clan & that the clan would be done either way, whether Itachi raised his hand against it or not. Shisui also shared the same ideals as Itachi. His last words to Itachi were "You're my best friend, the only one I could ask of this, please just keep the Uchiha clan's honor in tact and protect Konoha." If the clan did initiate the coup and failed, they would all be killed and known as traitors for going against their own village. The Uchiha clan would no longer have any honor and the village would be in terrible shape due to the resulting conflict. Itachi took all the dishonor on his own and kept the clan innocent, which in turn protected Konoha from the Uchiha, thus fulfilling Shisui's wish. Itachi never forgot about what Shisui said.

 

[Conspirator.]

sasuke was obviously a better brother-it's still mind boggling that he still likes Itachi after he mindf**ked him on two or three occassions into insanity......XD

 

[Raekwon26]

OT: This is one of the main reasons why Sasuke is one of my favorite characters.

The guy provokes interesting dicussing unlike the main character.

 

[shelke]

This was directed at HiddenSound, but I just wanted to reply because I can.

I agree with you when you say that Sasuke's and Itachi's ideals differ, therefore naturally there would be conflict. But you also stated that Itachi had no identity and that Sasuke does have one. The only difference between Itachi's and Sasuke's identities is the side they chose. If Itachi himself were stuck in Izanami, his identity would still be a Leaf shinobi, just as if Sasuke were stuck in Izanami he would be an avenger. That is them. Sasuke's entire life revolves around avenging his clan whereas Itachi's revolved around protecting Konoha. If you state that Itachi has no identity due to giving his life up for Konoha, then you also have to admit that Sasuke has no identity because he gave up his life only for vengeance. Both of their lives revolve around one aspect, not just Itachi's.

About Shisui, Itachi didn't ignore what he said. He took it into account. Danzo being able to get Shisui's eye just further proved that he wasn't afraid to use force against the clan & that the clan would be done either way, whether Itachi raised his hand against it or not. Shisui also shared the same ideals as Itachi. His last words to Itachi were "You're my best friend, the only one I could ask of this, please just keep the Uchiha clan's honor in tact and protect Konoha." If the clan did initiate the coup and failed, they would all be killed and known as traitors for going against their own village. The Uchiha clan would no longer have any honor and the village would be in terrible shape due to the resulting conflict. Itachi took all the dishonor on his own and kept the clan innocent, which in turn protected Konoha from the Uchiha, thus fulfilling Shisui's wish. Itachi never forgot about what Shisui said.

Being a shinobi of the leaf isn't an identity - it's merely a label that allows someone to understand that he's a part of a Militia system. It's a label that is shared by thousands. It isn't an individual identity maker - not even close. As for the traitorous part, then I won't get into a lengthy debate over this, but, the Founding Clan being denied its political rights by the higher ups is treacherous in itself. A coup overthrowing a corrupt establishment is hardly a traitorous act - it's a setup of power. Meaning, it can be taken away.

 

[HiddenSound]

OT: This is one of the main reasons why Sasuke is one of my favorite characters.

The guy provokes interesting dicussing unlike the main character.

If nothing else, I do agree to that.

 

[SkyGodHorus]

This was directed at HiddenSound, but I just wanted to reply because I can.

I agree with you when you say that Sasuke's and Itachi's ideals differ, therefore naturally there would be conflict. But you also stated that Itachi had no identity and that Sasuke does have one. The only difference between Itachi's and Sasuke's identities is the side they chose. If Itachi himself were stuck in Izanami, his identity would still be a Leaf shinobi, just as if Sasuke were stuck in Izanami he would be an avenger. That is them. Sasuke's entire life revolves around avenging his clan whereas Itachi's revolved around protecting Konoha. If you state that Itachi has no identity due to giving his life up for Konoha, then you also have to admit that Sasuke has no identity because he gave up his life only for vengeance. Both of their lives revolve around one aspect, not just Itachi's.

About Shisui, Itachi didn't ignore what he said. He took it into account. Danzo being able to get Shisui's eye just further proved that he wasn't afraid to use force against the clan & that the clan would be done either way, whether Itachi raised his hand against it or not. Shisui also shared the same ideals as Itachi. His last words to Itachi were "You're my best friend, the only one I could ask of this, please just keep the Uchiha clan's honor in tact and protect Konoha." If the clan did initiate the coup and failed, they would all be killed and known as traitors for going against their own village. The Uchiha clan would no longer have any honor and the village would be in terrible shape due to the resulting conflict. Itachi took all the dishonor on his own and kept the clan innocent, which in turn protected Konoha from the Uchiha, thus fulfilling Shisui's wish. Itachi never forgot about what Shisui said.

We're not talking about Shisui though. We're talking about Sasuke. Sasuke was a seven year old prepubescent kid who could barely throw a kunai, what's more understand the concept of conflict and war when he watched his brother slaughter the clan, not a teenaged, battle hardened Anbu captain like Itachi and Shisui. People are products of their environment and Sasuke was just that. He adopted the ideal of revenge when the clan was killed and never let go of it even when he grew up because it was all he knew. It was part of him and what drove him. He lost his parents and clan that were his moral compass and joy and just because Itachi believed his ideal was the right course of action doesn't mean that Sasuke would have or should have believed it. Therein laid Itachi's mistake, along with letting him live and forcing this life onto him. However, therin also lies the paradox because without Sasuke, Orochimaru would not have been sealed, Deidara would not have been killed, Kabuto would not have been defeated or Edo tensei released and the hokages would not have been resurrected, Naruto and several other protagonists would be dead and Obito or Madara would have won.

 

[theacknowledgedone]

Might as well just throw in a few lines:

Sasuke's ideals clash and do not coincide with Itachi's. Once your philosophies are different, it's bound to create a conflicting ideal. Sasuke, despite loving his brother, always valued his clan more than the village. Itachi, despite adoring Sasuke, devalued his Clan before his jingoistic ideals for the Militia set up, and he died believing in them.

Till the end, he kept stating that no matter what, 'he's still the Leaf's Shinobi' - this shows that he has no real identity beyond that forged in the Light of 'will of fire'. Sasuke has created an identity for himself, away from the ethos and dogmas of the Leaf Village, where Shady politics keep the system afloat. Sasuke found something beyond that, an ideal - a restoration of his Clan's honour by bringing down the man that ended it.

Imagine Sasuke discovering that Itachi was nothing more than a fool in the Village's higher ups scheming, a cog in Danzo's plan to obtain the Sharingan so that he would be able to control the Nine-tails and in turn the village - something he forever desired. This was bound to veer his anger, channel it towards the actual cause of contention. It's a natural human response. What you feel about this, isn't of any value, as you keep pushing aside important character aspects.

Itachi's identity and character traits are far stale, stagnant, and run-of-the-mill in comparison. The fact that Itachi ignored Shisui's confessions that this man stole his Sharingan, makes him that much more despicable. I hear people blubbering how selfless this character was, yet truth be told, Itachi was the most selfish individual in the entire manga. He didn't care about the circumstances surrounding the Coup and chose to side with the Leaf, as it supported his own brand of idealism. It's far more irritating and redundant as a mode of characterization than anything else.

In fact, had he himself been trapped in Izanagi's loop to discover himself, he never would have found anything to define as an identity marker for himself. What is Itachi's identity? The answer is, nothing. This is why Sasuke's responses and reactions make sense - they may be outrageous, audacious, and vehement, but they are real and they helped him forge his own identity, which Itachi has always lacked. Even after his death, he's nothing more than a man who sought Leaf's shade and label. An empty man, sans Self.

Here is your criticism.

@bold:
Ignored Shisui's ideals? Talk about not fully understanding character depth.

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Didn't care for the circumstances surrounding the coup? Itachi was one of the only ones who actually understood the curse of his clan, he understood the circumstances better than them. He left the future of the Uchiha to Sasuke lol.

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[saw2097]

Kishimoto openly said that Sasuke's character is best described as pure and selfish, this is a perfect example.

He cares more about his own selfish desire for revenge then why his brother went through all that pain, his brother sacrificed everything for both the village and his little brother.

 

[Raekwon26]

Kishimoto openly said that Sasuke's character is best described as pure and selfish, this is a perfect example.

He cares more about his own selfish desire for revenge then why his brother went through all that pain, his brother sacrificed everything for both the village and his little brother.

......he also sacrificed his little brothers childhood, happiness and sainity.

Yeah, Sasuke should just do what Itachi wants.........

 

[saw2097]

Although personally I have always felt that Sasuke had a few screws loose in his head, even as a child he was near psychotic.

 

[Joethemh]

Is it?
Bold is why he's an awful brother. For spouting on and on about how great Itachi is, Sasuke never cared about Itachi's wishes or Itachi's beloved home? That seems shitty.

You make very convincing arguments. Well thought out, provided clear-cut evidence, overall good thread. I agree to some degree on your claims about Sasuke's character development. I'm just waiting to see his character in the end. Maybe that will make up for his previous actions.

 

[shelke]

@bold:
Ignored Shisui's ideals? Talk about not fully understanding character depth.

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Didn't care for the circumstances surrounding the coup? Itachi was one of the only ones who actually understood the curse of his clan, he understood the circumstances better than them. He left the future of the Uchiha to Sasuke lol.

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Curse of his clan? So he decided to purge it through the lens of a Militia set-up? All his ideals are per-conceived notions. He was a fool with little depth to his blind pursuits.

 

[assface3]

Curse of his clan? So he decided to purge it through the lens of a Militia set-up? All his ideals are per-conceived notions. He was a fool with little depth to his blind pursuits.

Where's the "IMO" part of this, because it's sure as hell not fact.

 

[theacknowledgedone]

Curse of his clan? So he decided to purge it through the lens of a Militia set-up? All his ideals are per-conceived notions. He was a fool with little depth to his blind pursuits.

You really have no idea what you are talking about. blind pursuit? little depth? :|

Did you not read the scans? He knew exactly what he was doing. His choices were to die with his clan or to murder his clan and save his younger brother. The second option at least gave his clan an opportunity to start a new life and live on in Sasuke's name. It's actually laughable that you would try to sound so sure of yourself but end up sounding like an idiot. Nobody has time for that.

 

[Conspirator.]

I can't wait till ussj future trunks sees this thread.....XD

 

[Dark Magician]

Itachi was the bad brother.

 

[shelke]

You really have no idea what you are talking about. blind pursuit? little depth? :|

Did you not read the scans? He knew exactly what he was doing. His choices were to die with his clan or to murder his clan and save his younger brother. The second option at least gave his clan an opportunity to start a new life and live on in Sasuke's name. It's actually laughable that you would try to sound so sure of yourself but end up sounding like an idiot. Nobody has time for that.

Better than you have. Two scans make you a sanctimonious prig and me an idiot? Clearly, if these two redundant scans add any depth to Itachi's already stale as a grey paint character, then you have no argument and Itachi is even more of a rock than I thought he was. Why don't you give your best shot?

Seriously, type an analysis, because this retort system of yours is broken and is hardly convincing.

 

[MinaButt]

meh....................

 

[Dannie]

It's ok if you have a grudge match with Orochimaru but et it go.

It's true that Itachi's decisions were better than his brother, but Sasuke lived his life in lies, so what do you expect? He loved his clan above everything else while Itachi cared too much for the village and destroyed the one thing that made Sasuke have hapiness. It's not Sasuke's fault that he actually stood up for what he loved and sought revenge afterwards. What would you have wished for Sasuke to do? After hearing the truth, return to Konoha and give everyone a hug? That's not how it works. Furthermore, why the hell do you want Sasuke to be a copycat of his brother? That completely negates the character that is Sasuke.