Sasuke was an Awful Brother

Chie

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Much of the way he reacted earlier. He wanted to know why the village was created. Why do people fight for the village and perform these horrible atrocities for the sake of the village. Are they worth protecting? That's why he summoned the hokage for these answers.

But you also have to keep in mind that the way Sasuke would react would also depend upon which stage in his life Itachi would tell him the truth.

If Itachi told him right after carrying out the S-Rank mission, Sasuke wouldn't understand at that age and hate the village. Or Itachi would have to take him along with him and they would be missing-nins together, which would completely erase any chances Sasuke would have for living in Konoha as a hero or even a respected citizen, considering Sasuke would be deemed a missing-nin from the start.

If Itachi told him the truth later on, Sasuke wouldn't believe him due to hating him all his life prior. He believed Edo Itachi after Obito had already told him the truth.

My only point is that just as it isn't that easy for Sasuke to just follow Itachi's will, it wasn't that easy for Itachi to just tell Sasuke the truth. Neither is a bad brother and they both loved each other. Life just screwed them over.
 

shelke

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Might as well just throw in a few lines:

Sasuke's ideals clash and do not coincide with Itachi's. Once your philosophies are different, it's bound to create a conflicting ideal. Sasuke, despite loving his brother, always valued his clan more than the village. Itachi, despite adoring Sasuke, devalued his Clan before his jingoistic ideals for the Militia set up, and he died believing in them.

Till the end, he kept stating that no matter what, 'he's still the Leaf's Shinobi' - this shows that he has no real identity beyond that forged in the Light of 'will of fire'. Sasuke has created an identity for himself, away from the ethos and dogmas of the Leaf Village, where Shady politics keep the system afloat. Sasuke found something beyond that, an ideal - a restoration of his Clan's honour by bringing down the man that ended it.

Imagine Sasuke discovering that Itachi was nothing more than a fool in the Village's higher ups scheming, a cog in Danzo's plan to obtain the Sharingan so that he would be able to control the Nine-tails and in turn the village - something he forever desired. This was bound to veer his anger, channel it towards the actual cause of contention. It's a natural human response. What you feel about this, isn't of any value, as you keep pushing aside important character aspects.

Itachi's identity and character traits are far stale, stagnant, and run-of-the-mill in comparison. The fact that Itachi ignored Shisui's confessions that this man stole his Sharingan, makes him that much more despicable. I hear people blubbering how selfless this character was, yet truth be told, Itachi was the most selfish individual in the entire manga. He didn't care about the circumstances surrounding the Coup and chose to side with the Leaf, as it supported his own brand of idealism. It's far more irritating and redundant as a mode of characterization than anything else.

In fact, had he himself been trapped in Izanagi's loop to discover himself, he never would have found anything to define as an identity marker for himself. What is Itachi's identity? The answer is, nothing. This is why Sasuke's responses and reactions make sense - they may be outrageous, audacious, and vehement, but they are real and they helped him forge his own identity, which Itachi has always lacked. Even after his death, he's nothing more than a man who sought Leaf's shade and label. An empty man, sans Self.

Here is your criticism.
 
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SkyGodHorus

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He really was utterly selfish. Also shows how great of a brother Itachi was in contrast.

For the sake of the village, Itachi lived the life of a devilish traitor. A clan-murdering demon. Vilified by the Leaf, his home. And he was okay with that because the alternative would bring destruction to his home. He truly loved Konohagakure more than anything else.
Except his baby brother. He was willing to kill his parents for his village, but he could not bring himself to kill Sasuke Uchiha. And so, Sasuke grew up hating, despising Itachi. And so when Sasuke "defeated" Itachi, and Tobi comes to reveal the truth about Itachi. And Sasuke eventually believes him. Sasuke realizes how much Itachi loved the village, and yet,
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... Really?
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and then especially
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He venerated Itachi. He was saying "you're perfect" while shitting all over Itachi's wishes.
That's why I feel Danzo hit the nail on the head here
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I get that Sasuke was hurt and confused and whatnot, but damn. That's why MS Sasuke is such an annoying character to me.

Sasuke had no obligation to Itachi. He was his own person.

At the end of the day, whether he did it for the leaf or not, everything Sasuke did was caused by Itachi. Itachi himself even admitted that he should not have left his legacy to Sasuke and instead given him the truth, allowing him to follow his own path as a result rather than Itachi manipulating him. Itachi also initially planned to brainwash Sasuke with Koto Amatsukami inside Naruto, which ironically parallels Infinite Tsukuyomi's enslavement.

And it's kind of ridiculous how all these fans vilify Sasuke and ignore his good deeds, not to mention the influence of his sharingas power over his emotions as well as other characters including Gaara and the present day Kages and villages who have done far worse deeds.

Gaara went on a crazed, sadistic nihilistic rampage and killed several of his own people as well as defenseless shinobi in the forest of death, yet he's regarded as an angel.

The Mist village forced their children to fight and kill each other, used Rin as a Jinchuriki and bait and forced Kakashi to kill her, which resulted in Obito joining Madara.

The Cloud infiltrated Konoha under treacherous circumstances, tried to kidnap Hinata and when they were caught, threatened a war if the Hyuuga leader did not kill himself, which resulted in Neji's father's death, which resulted in his childhood being ruined. They are also warmongers and once again, under a treaty, instigated a fight in Konoha when Karui pummeled Naruto.

The hidden Rock village, knowing that the Akasuki were dirty, willingly hired them over and over.

The sand village, like the cloud deceived Konoha, arranged a coup with Orochimaru and killed several Konoha shinobi in addition to aiding Orochimaru to kill Hiruzen, which also resulted in the Kazekage being killed.

And of course, all the villages vilified their jinchurikis and turned them into weapons against their will.
 
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HiddenSound

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Oh yeah, you do seem quite upset over this.

My first post on how short-sighted your perspective is? Yes, it was criticism and not even the aggressive kind. You have obviously never come across harsh literary criticism, probably ever. What is criticism in your most humble opinion? 'Yeah dude, TOTALLY agree. Rock on. Awesome Thread.' This isn't criticism. Just a food for thought.

I didn't ask for your personal feelings. Where did this 'you don't know me' even come from? Anyhow, you have no compelling case to state that Sasuke is annoying and should have followed Itachi's hilarious and downright stupid ideals, just because you believe so. This isn't character analysis, it's opinion, and it can be disagreed with outright.

My whole point.
Mkay.

Forgive me if being called childish, ridiculous and short-sighted "as usual" came across as just silly insults from a pissed off fanboy. This is the last place I'd expect something like harsh literary criticism. Character analysis? No. That is not what this is. I came here for a simple discussion. Beyond that, I really don't care. If the life and times of Sasuke Uchiha are really that important to you, then more power to you.
 

Bad Touch Yakushi

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Oh yeah absolutely, this was Sasuke at his worst remember. But this doesn't make him a bad character, just a FLAWED one.

And that's why he put that right and developed. You can't develop as a character if there's nothing to develop from. Sasuke matured just as much as Naruto did behind that emo kid demenour. Danzo was twisted but his words there was exactly spot on and Kishi knows it.
 

shelke

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Mkay.

Forgive me if being called childish, ridiculous and short-sighted "as usual" came across as just silly insults from a pissed off fanboy. This is the last place I'd expect something like harsh literary criticism. Character analysis? No. That is not what this is. I came here for a simple discussion. Beyond that, I really don't care. If the life and times of Sasuke Uchiha are really that important to you, then more power to you.

See, my whole point defined by yours truly. Life and times? Says the guy who has made countless redundant threads, endeavouring to validate aspects of Danzo's character, whilst I have yet to waste my time in making a single thread on Sasuke.

How cool is that?
 

Chie

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Not really. I don't think that anyone else saw their parents die at the hands of their brother, then spent hours walking through a town strewn with his family's corpses.

Well, Gaara's childhood was worse and he got over it. But then again, Gaara and Sasuke are two totally different people, so I guess it's useless to compare them in the first place.
 

SkyGodHorus

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Mkay.

Forgive me if being called childish, ridiculous and short-sighted "as usual" came across as just silly insults from a pissed off fanboy. This is the last place I'd expect something like harsh literary criticism. Character analysis? No. That is not what this is. I came here for a simple discussion. Beyond that, I really don't care. If the life and times of Sasuke Uchiha are really that important to you, then more power to you.

You're doing it wrong.
 

HiddenSound

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Oh yeah absolutely, this was Sasuke at his worst remember. But this doesn't make him a bad character, just a FLAWED one.

And that's why he put that right and developed. You can't develop as a character if there's nothing to develop from. Sasuke matured just as much as Naruto did behind that emo kid demenour. Danzo was twisted but his words there was exactly spot on and Kishi knows it.

Eh, I don't think it made him a bad character either, or even flawed. It was just irritating to watch Sasuke give constant praise to the guy whose wishes he was screwing over.
 

Raekwon26

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Eh, I don't think it made him a bad character either, or even flawed. It was just irritating to watch Sasuke give constant praise to the guy whose wishes he was screwing over.

Why?

He loves his brother, he's never denied that. Why should he do what Itachi wants just because he praises him?

That's stupid imo.
 

SkyGodHorus

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Well, Gaara's childhood was worse and he got over it. But then again, Gaara and Sasuke are two totally different people, so I guess it's useless to compare them in the first place.

Yeah uh no. Gaara had his brother, his sister and his people. Sasuke literally had no one. He watched his family and entire clan get slaughtered by his own brother and idol when he was only seven years old only to learn Itachi was protecting the leaf the whole time and manipulating him after he sacrificed being a Konoha shinobi when he was finally finding happiness again and then spent three years getting stronger to kill him with a murdering psychopathic shinobi that he hated.
 
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CurseSealofEarth

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Might as well just throw in a few lines:

Sasuke's ideals clash and do not coincide with Itachi's. Once your philosophies are different, it's bound to create a conflicting ideal. Sasuke, despite loving his brother, always valued his clan more than the village. Itachi, despite adoring Sasuke, devalued his Clan before his jingoistic ideals for the Militia set up, and he died believing in them.

Till the end, he kept stating that no matter what, 'he's still the Leaf's Shinobi' - this shows that he has no real identity beyond that forged in the Light of 'will of fire'. Sasuke has created an identity for himself, away from the ethos and dogmas of the Leaf Village, where Shady politics keep the system afloat. Sasuke found something beyond that, an ideal - a restoration of his Clan's honour by bringing down the man that ended it.

Imagine Sasuke discovering that Itachi was nothing more than a fool in the Village's higher ups scheming, a cog in Danzo's plan to obtain the Sharingan so that he would be able to control the Nine-tails and in turn the village - something he forever desired. This was bound to veer his anger, channel it towards the actual cause of contention. It's a natural human response. What you feel about this, isn't of any value, as you keep pushing aside important character aspects.

Itachi's identity and character traits are far stale, stagnant, and run-of-the-mill in comparison. The fact that Itachi ignored Shisui's confessions that this man stole his Sharingan, makes him that much more despicable. I hear people blubbering how selfless this character was, yet truth be told, Itachi was the most selfish individual in the entire manga. He didn't care about the circumstances surrounding the Coup and chose to side with the Leaf, as it supported his own brand of idealism. It's far more irritating and redundant as a mode of characterization than anything else.

In fact, had he himself been trapped in Izanagi's loop to discover himself, he never would have found anything to define as an identity marker for himself. What is Itachi's identity? The answer is, nothing. This is why Sasuke's responses and reactions make sense - they may be outrageous, audacious, and vehement, but they are real and they helped him forge his own identity, which Itachi has always lacked. Even after his death, he's nothing more than a man who sought Leaf's shade and label. An empty man, sans Self.

Here is your criticism.

This was well done, the only thing I would change would be Itachi's identity. He IS a Leaf Shinobi, and that's all he ever desired. That's all he ever saw himself as. Simplistic as it is, that's all some of us in the real world require, even myself.
 

HiddenSound

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Why?

He loves his brother, he's never denied that. Why should he do what Itachi wants just because he praises him?

That's stupid imo.
I don't really know how to explain that.
If you have utmost love and respect for someone to the point of near constant praise, you'd probably want to fulfill their wish instead of doing the exact opposite. But I guess I'm (near) totally alone in that regard :I
 

shelke

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This was well done, the only thing I would change would be Itachi's identity. He IS a Leaf Shinobi, and that's all he ever desired. That's all he ever saw himself as. Simplistic as it is, that's all some of us in the real world require, even myself.

This is an Identity shared by many. It's just a label. It is not something that would define him in terms of individuality. It's a collective label of a solider. Being a hired hand isn't an identity, it's merely a recognition Label.
 

Bad Touch Yakushi

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Eh, I don't think it made him a bad character either, or even flawed. It was just irritating to watch Sasuke give constant praise to the guy whose wishes he was screwing over.

You have to see this hypocrisy from a writing level. It's meant to annoy you a bit, at this point you're meant to be viewing Sasuke as a total lost cause- he's a mess in more ways than one which makes his development later all the more effective.
 

Raekwon26

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I don't really know how to explain that.
If you have utmost love and respect for someone to the point of near constant praise, you'd probably want to fulfill their wish instead of doing the exact opposite. But I guess I'm (near) totally alone in that regard :I

That shows a lack of thought process and independence.

Sasuke following what Itachi wanted would put him back in the same situation he was in at the start of the Manga; doing what Itachi tells him and not following his own beliefs and ideals.
It showed maturity to not follow to actually to hear Itachi's story and form his own opinions.

If he blindly folled what Itachi wanted then what would be the point of his character?
 
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