[Discussion] Sanji vs Smoker

[Frikid]

No they don't, Smoker is a Vice Admiral for a reason he has a range of fighting styles not to mention he has a jitte he uses, also there's the fact Smoker has took hits from Vergo who's haki is far greater than Sanji's so just because Sanji has Haki it doesn't mean he can automatically beat Smoker.

The point you are making now and the point you made earlier are completely different.

Sanji can use haki so smoker converting into smoke isn't going to help him. Also sanji's fire based attacks give a big advantage to him just like how ace got an advantage on smoker.

Your reply to this post :

Just because someone has Haki it doesn't guarantee them a win against a Logia user. Smoker's combat abilities are better than Sanji's.

You can see i never said sanji's haki alone is enough to beat smoker which is why i also mention sanji's fire based attacks. I only said that haki will help sanji to "hit" smoker which he won't be able to do without haki.

Then later you said haki doesn't guarantee a win against a logia user which is a wrong statement because many haki users can beat logia users.
So with haki alone it is possible to beat logia users , you don't need anything else.

Obviously, The level of haki is a big factor, i never denied that fact. But my initial statement still stands that haki alone is enough to beat a logia user.
And i have already given the examples to prove my point.

Well in Ace and Smoker could not defeat each other in a fight...so what does that say and by the way I never once thought Ace would lose to Smoker...however going by the manga Ace with the advantage over Smoker couldn't defeat him...Now don't get me wrong I think Ace is stronger yet...you know.

I don't know what you are trying to say here. Ace will murder smoker of alabasta arc , this is not even debatable.
But we know how ace is, he won't just kill someone without a reason. He only wanted to help luffy escape and once luffy escaped he also went away. That wasn't even a fight, just ace messing around.

Oh so once someone gains Haki that means they automatically defeat someone with a Devil Fruit right? That's possibly the most insane thing I have ever read. Tashigi could not defeat Monet and she has Haki, Marco and Vista could not beat Akainu and they had Haki...you see where I'm going with this.

Your Logic is based on the fact that because someone has Haki they can automatically beat anyone with a Devil fruit, yet you forget Smoker also has Haki.

Then look at it like this Vergo was fighting Sanji with just his legs and was tying with him and Vergo wasn't even using the advanced version of haki (Where the body parts turn black) on Sanji and Sanji's bones where breaking apart fighting Vergo. Sanji has not shown enough Haki feats to be put above Smoker and I doubt he ever will since Smoker's rival is Luffy in the Strawhats, not Sanji.

Vergo and Sanji didn't have a fight to death or else we could see to what extent sanji can go but i would say he was holding his own against vergo as good as smoker.
Basically what i am trying to say is, the level of haki sanji have is on the same league as smoker, there would be just a little difference in their haki, if any.

Now Here comes sanji's advantage, fire. You yourself admitted that ace have advantage over smoker which means now you believe that fire>smoke (which is also a manga fact) .

Now just imagine sanji using his haki imbued fire attacks on smoker who is already weak to both fire and haki.
Believe it or not , sanji is just a bad match up for smoker because his attacks revolve around fire which leaves smoker at big disadvantage.
He has also shown some great speed feats and i believe he is faster than smoker, so adding all that, i believe sanji clearly holds an upper "leg" in this fight and he can defeat smoker.

 

[TheHokage]

The point you are making now and the point you made earlier are completely different.



Your reply to this post :


You can see i never said sanji's haki alone is enough to beat smoker which is why i also mention sanji's fire based attacks. I only said that haki will help sanji to "hit" smoker which he won't be able to do without haki.

Then later you said haki doesn't guarantee a win against a logia user which is a wrong statement because many haki users can beat logia users.
So with haki alone it is possible to beat logia users , you don't need anything else.

Obviously, The level of haki is a big factor, i never denied that fact. But my initial statement still stands that haki alone is enough to beat a logia user.
And i have already given the examples to prove my point.



I don't know what you are trying to say here. Ace will murder smoker of alabasta arc , this is not even debatable.
But we know how ace is, he won't just kill someone without a reason. He only wanted to help luffy escape and once luffy escaped he also went away. That wasn't even a fight, just ace messing around.



Vergo and Sanji didn't have a fight to death or else we could see to what extent sanji can go but i would say he was holding his own against vergo as good as smoker.
Basically what i am trying to say is, the level of haki sanji have is on the same league as smoker, there would be just a little difference in their haki, if any.

Now Here comes sanji's advantage, fire. You yourself admitted that ace have advantage over smoker which means now you believe that fire>smoke (which is also a manga fact) .

Now just imagine sanji using his haki imbued fire attacks on smoker who is already weak to both fire and haki.
Believe it or not , sanji is just a bad match up for smoker because his attacks revolve around fire which leaves smoker at big disadvantage.
He has also shown some great speed feats and i believe he is faster than smoker, so adding all that, i believe sanji clearly holds an upper "leg" in this fight and he can defeat smoker.

Bold: Sanji was not holding his own at all his bones were breaking during the fight from a non haki imbued kick Vergo didn't even use his unbelievable level of Haki nor did he use his bamboo stick and arms. It was a battle of feet meaning Vergo was holding back. Also having fire again does not mean an immediate win against Smoker since it only has an effect when Smoker is using his power, Smoker could use a haki imbued punch to counter Sanji's attack, Smoker isn't just limited to his devil fruit powers you know.

Finally answer me this then why would Luffy's Main Marine rival, the one who has been chasing him before he even went to grandline suddenly become so much weaker that he can't even beat the third strongest in the Strawhat crew. It makes no sense Smoker is going to be continuing to chase Luffy even now so why would Oda have him so weak that he can't even compete with Sanji hm? Also speed feats what speed feats has he got that proves he's faster than Smoker?

 

[24 12 11 to troll]

Lol! Frikid completely avoids responding to me! He knows he's wrong...

 

[Frikid]

@rinnemaki :
I don't enjoy debating with you, its not just boring but annoying.
First you said, Ace tied with alabasta smoker.
Then even after showing you manga proof, you denied the manga (again just like last time)
And after that i didn't even read what you wrote.

You must be writing some crap and giving some ridiculous example like by my logic coby can beat akainu because coby is haki user and i said haki alone is enough to beat logia user ignoring the fact that there is a level of haki one has to reach to beat a certain person.

You keep stalking my posts and try to prove me wrong in every single thread I post in, just so that you can feel superior but unfortunately you fail in the end.

As i mention in that thread , I do debates for my own entertainment and i don't enjoy debating with you so you better stop stalking me and get a life. Everyone loses some day, no one is perfect so just get over it and move on.
And yeah Did i mention, get a life?

Bold: Sanji was not holding his own at all his bones were breaking during the fight from a non haki imbued kick Vergo didn't even use his unbelievable level of Haki nor did he use his bamboo stick and arms. It was a battle of feet meaning Vergo was holding back. Also having fire again does not mean an immediate win against Smoker since it only has an effect when Smoker is using his power, Smoker could use a haki imbued punch to counter Sanji's attack, Smoker isn't just limited to his devil fruit powers you know.

Finally answer me this then why would Luffy's Main Marine rival, the one who has been chasing him before he even went to grandline suddenly become so much weaker that he can't even beat the third strongest in the Strawhat crew. It makes no sense Smoker is going to be continuing to chase Luffy even now so why would Oda have him so weak that he can't even compete with Sanji hm? Also speed feats what speed feats has he got that proves he's faster than Smoker?

The room was getting filled with gas and both of them had to get out of there as soon as possible.

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↑ Here sanji clearly states he was using haki.

And here ↓ you can see sanji and vergo both using haki :
Those sparks are aftermath of haki clashes.

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In fact, sanji was the one who did not use haki when vergo kicked him which is why his bone got cracked.(there was no spark when the clash happened) [shown in the pic below ↓]

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Also, just because vergo was not using his bamboo stick does not mean he was holding back. There was no reason for him to hold back , maybe you want to say he was not in his full power? If so, then this is right, he was not in his full power but he is not dependable on his bamboo and it is just a fraction of his power, meaning even when he is not using his bamboo, it does not effect him that much. The fact that sanji was able to exchange blows with vergo even when he was using haki suggests he fought vergo as good as smoker did.

Since smoker has become a "smoke man", he cannot protect himself from not turning into smoke even when he does not wish to. His body will automatically react to fire if he comes in contact with it.
If smoker plans on not using his ability then he is the one who is holding back his full power which will further decrease his chances of winning.

@last para,
Just because smoker is luffy's rival doesn't mean he will automatically become as strong as luffy.
Oda has not given smoker, the necessary power ups to be on par with luffy. I don't see luffy losing to vergo who have easily beaten smoker.
Further adding on, we have seen many times a person winning to another person despite of being weak to him in overall combat abilities. Best example which comes to mind is , luffy vs enel, luffy at that time was no where near enel's level but he still beat him because he was his elemental enemy.

So, as of today, smoker despite of being luffy's rival is not as powerful as luffy and from his current level, he is just as strong as sanji.
Surely, later in the series, smoker will get stronger and would catch up to luffy's level (hopefully) but as of now, it is a big NO.

Edit:
oh yeah, i almost forgot, sanji's speed feats are when he was in nami's body, he used a "certain powerup" and quickly caught up to the dragon which was also running very fast xd

 

[24 12 11 to troll]

@rinnemaki :
I don't enjoy debating with you, its not just boring but annoying.
First you said, Ace tied with alabasta smoker.
Then even after showing you manga proof, you denied the manga (again just like last time)
And after that i didn't even read what you wrote.

Because Ace did tie with Smoker as there was no winner. This is the universal definition of a tie in the context of competition. I never denied the manga. You simply misinterpreted what the manga stated. You "didn't even read" because you were afraid. And you dug yourself a pretty deep hole which you can't get out of.

You must be writing some crap and giving some ridiculous example like by my logic coby can beat akainu because coby is haki user and i said haki alone is enough to beat logia user ignoring the fact that there is a level of haki one has to reach to beat a certain person.

Well I am going by your logic. You said that if you have Haki you automatically beat a Logia user. Which is definitely incorrect. You ignored what you just stated "there is a level of haki one has to reach to beat a certain person". Which completely undermines what you previously said about auto-wins just because of having Haki. You lack consistency.

You keep stalking my posts and try to prove me wrong in every single thread I post in, just so that you can feel superior but unfortunately you fail in the end.

So because we've debated three times during the whole year you've been on the base (one debate every four months on average) that counts as stalking? You need to look up what stalking is as you clearly don't know what context the word can be used in, let alone what it means. I simply disagree with you because your opinions contradict the manga and all possibility in contrast to mine which are based on possibility instead of the impossibility. One day you will learn that I know what I'm talking about (Been an OP fan for 6 years +, my theories on Violet ARE COMING TRUE, this puts my posts in good light compared to yours. Nothing you have said has come true or been true.)

As i mention in that thread , I do debates for my own entertainment and i don't enjoy debating with you so you better stop stalking me and get a life. Everyone loses some day, no one is perfect so just get over it and move on.
And yeah Did i mention, get a life?

You don't enjoy debating with me because you know you can never win. I only lose to people who don't contradict manga facts or their previous statements. Why do I need to get a life? I already have one if I'm not dead , right?

 

[Frikid]

And it is the third time you said ace tied with alabasta smoker.

I said haki alone is enough to beat a logia user because it is a manga fact. Rayleigh,smoker,vergo all are pure haki users and they can beat many logia users without much efforts. What else special do they have except haki?
So my statement still stands that haki alone is enough to beat a logia user.

Now it is painfully obvious your haki must reach a certain level to defeat a certain person, i don't even think it is something one needs to mention since its so obvious. I guess its no so obvious for some people.

Moving on, the reason why i said you are stalking me is because , in that thread where i said i want kaido to have werewolf DF , you post an image and i don't know what you are trying to prove? That a werewolf DF user already exists??
Like seriously, i was just stating what DF i would like kaido to have and you have problem even with that. Its clear you cannot get over some debates you lost to and you started to stalk me and tried to prove me wrong even at the situation where it was completely unnecessary.

And as i said, it is not entertaining to debate with you, after 2 or 3 lines you start getting butthurt and start abusing and post useless pics. You don't read the paragraphs properly and try to counter statement line by line instead of countering the whole paragraph and by doing that , you try to prove something which wasn't even stated by the debator because if you read a line or two distinctly it will carry out a different meaning than the whole paragarpah. That way, you prove something wrong which wasn't even stated by debator and the main point which the debator wants to make gets completely lost.

Just for instance,
the point i wanted to make was that sanji being a haki and fire attack user holds an advantage against smoker but instead of countering that statement ,
what you post is that how luffy cannot beat akainu because luffy has weaker haki than what akainu have.
Now obviously, everyone knows that, it is something so obvious that you need not mention it. What you failed to mention is how smoker actually beats sanji and counter sanji's speed/fire attacks/haki.

I lied when i said , i didn't read your argument, i did read it but i didn't really find it interesting because most of it was off topic so i was confused on what exactly should i debate upon which would actually progress the debate and not pointless fighting.

So if you want to have a debate, just cut the crap and prove how smoker beats sanji .
I have already proven my point in the post i made to thehokage.

 

[24 12 11 to troll]

And it is the third time you said ace tied with alabasta smoker.

Because they did tie. Stop denying it. They did tie. Nobody lost. To be honest why do I even bother debating with you? All you do is dig yourself a hole too deep to climb out of and then enter a constant state of denial.

F*ck this. It's boring.

 

[Frikid]

Because they did tie. Stop denying it. They did tie. Nobody lost. To be honest why do I even bother debating with you? All you do is dig yourself a hole too deep to climb out of and then enter a constant state of denial.

F*ck this. It's boring.

Oh really?
Who is the one who posted this :

! Frikid completely avoids responding to me! He knows he's wrong...

if you never wanted to debate with me, why intimidate me to get a reply ?
I never intended to debate with you anyway, its you who started all this. So first you wanted to debate with me so you intimidate me but then you give up in the middle. Well.... whatever.

And now its the 4th time you said ace tied with smoker of alabasta =D .

 

[24 12 11 to troll]

Oh really?
Who is the one who posted this :


if you never wanted to debate with me, why intimidate me to get a reply ?
I never intended to debate with you anyway, its you who started all this. So first you wanted to debate with me so you intimidate me but then you give up in the middle. Well.... whatever.

And now its the 4th time you said ace tied with smoker of alabasta =D .

How is that an intimidation? This is my last post to you on this thread. At the time there was still stuff to be proven. But now it's clear that whatever we say is futile since your head is too far up your own arse to see the light.

[video=youtube;MabiEztLUB0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MabiEztLUB0[/video]
no winner = tie

 

[Fujitora]

You must be registered for see images

That's tekkai he is referring to there.

 

[LitzSabr]

How is that an intimidation? This is my last post to you on this thread. At the time there was still stuff to be proven. But now it's clear that whatever we say is futile since your head is too far up your own arse to see the light.

[video=youtube;MabiEztLUB0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MabiEztLUB0[/video]
no winner = tie

That last part of the fight (the big tower of fire and smoke) didn't happen in manga.

 

[Red Swag]

smoker is a vice admiral!!!




and he aint ready for the new world =D


sanji takes this.

 

[24 12 11 to troll]

That last part of the fight (the big tower of fire and smoke) didn't happen in manga.

Doesn't change the fact that nobody won. This is also evident as both Smoker and Ace appear later in the arc with no injuries etc. So basically even though the plume of smoke is irrelevant , so is your post.

 

[LitzSabr]

Doesn't change the fact that nobody won. This is also evident as both Smoker and Ace appear later in the arc with no injuries etc. So basically even though the plume of smoke is irrelevant , so is your post.

No, it means that Ace let him live. U_U

 

[Tobi123]

Just because lord Trafalgar rapes him doesn't mean any character can.

 

[24 12 11 to troll]

No, it means that Ace let him live. U_U

Based upon the logic that Fire strengthen Smoke and therefore strengthens Smoker , as the battle was pointless , it's clear that neither side would have won

 

[Frikid]

Based upon the logic that Fire strengthen Smoke and therefore strengthens Smoker , as the battle was pointless , it's clear that neither side would have won

how come you missed this :

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Wait i will magnify it for you :

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---

1. Even current smoker stands no chance against Ace let alone alabasta smoker.
2. It is a manga fact that fire dominates smoke.
3. Ace's objective was not to fight but to help luffy escape. Smoker's objective was to catch pirates whether it be luffy or ace(his priority was luffy though). He failed to catch both.
4. This topic is not even debatable, one has to be completely insane to believe that a beast like ace would tie to alabasta smoker.

You can apply your logic all you want but that is nothing but wishful thinking.

 

[Mephew D Kensei]

Pple have been on Rinne's case but he has a point actually Ace vs Smoker had no victor and it wasnt coz Ace wasnt serius about the fight. their abilities withought haki wld give them a loop battle thats only destructive to the enviroment and a winner wld b there in the event one of them makes a mistakes or one tires out and can't counter attacks from the other. this manga fact that states fire> smoke is in the measure of destructive capacity pple and Df's are not the stereotypical manga powers they have different rule in some cases. Ace was stronger than Smoker but cldnt effectively attack/strike/hit/hurt Smoker and Smoker cldn't choke(smoke is usually carbondioxide and it snuffs fire out coz of lack of oxygen) Ace's fire for him to effectively attack so it was to some extent a tie(their offences were rendered 99% redudant)- Its actually manga fact that when yo attacks are useless u are loosing, then add some simple math when both opponents are loosing then its a tie.

 

[xcoyote]

So Ace wanking himself means that he could have won that fight for sure?Lmao

 

[24 12 11 to troll]

Pple have been on Rinne's case but he has a point actually Ace vs Smoker had no victor and it wasnt coz Ace wasnt serius about the fight. their abilities withought haki wld give them a loop battle thats only destructive to the enviroment and a winner wld b there in the event one of them makes a mistakes or one tires out and can't counter attacks from the other. this manga fact that states fire> smoke is in the measure of destructive capacity pple and Df's are not the stereotypical manga powers they have different rule in some cases. Ace was stronger than Smoker but cldnt effectively attack/strike/hit/hurt Smoker and Smoker cldn't choke(smoke is usually carbondioxide and it snuffs fire out coz of lack of oxygen) Ace's fire for him to effectively attack so it was to some extent a tie(their offences were rendered 99% redudant)- Its actually manga fact that when yo attacks are useless u are loosing, then add some simple math when both opponents are loosing then its a tie.

Pretty much this. Although The fire would strengthen the Smoke instead of the Smoke dimming the fire. On the other hand it may do both.

So Ace wanking himself means that he could have won that fight for sure?Lmao

You completely ignored the point about Ace most likely talking about destructive capacity rather than Smoke vs Fire. lmao