[VS] Rinnegan Sasuke vs DMS Kakashi
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You can like it or not. The official databook explanation of Kamui Raikiri is, that Kakashi stays intangible while solidifying his hand to strike with Raikiri. Being intangible means, nothing works against this body, while he can strike. Why are you denying it? What's wrong with you? Why so mad about it? Ididn't make the Manga, I only refer to it. That's just the way it is. Kamui Raikiri means, Kakashi can strike while being intangible.
And to your first point, it is also just the way it is. Fact is, that with Sasuke's teleportation, he teleports next to his target and then strikes from close range.
Fact is fact. Period. As much as you cry, it's just the way it is. Any word I said referred to canon statements and scans.
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We already saw how useless Sasuke was with his half of Rikudo's chakra against Kaguya using both his shunshin in combination with his S/T to touch her but failed every time.
DMS Kakashi with just a tiny portion effortlessly blitzed her. He also blitzed her chakra hands which Sasuke was going to get caught from if not for Naruto's clone. Give Kakashi half of Rikudo's chakra and Kakashi wins low to mid difficulty.
Sasuke's reactions are subpar and he cant react to S/T techniques. Kakashi Kamui'd and closed Kaguya's portal the instant it was opened and prevented her bone from teleporting. Sasuke got blitzed by her portals.
Rikudo's chakra buffs up base stats. With buffed up abilities from half of Rikudo's chakra Kakashi trumps him in everything when an inferior version of him managed to do more against Kaguya than every time Sasuke failed.
Kakashi has Superior S/T, base stats, reflexes in base and CQC. The difference was made apparent in the manga.
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Genjutsu isn't something that would overlap with Kakashi...
Though I'm not sure if that specific genjutsu is for the Bijuus. Sasuke's ocular powers reflected upon the Bijuu just like Obito and Madara's would reflect upon them as well.
Though I'm not sure if that specific genjutsu is for the Bijuus. Sasuke's ocular powers reflected upon the Bijuu just like Obito and Madara's would reflect upon them as well.
This somehow disproves all I said, or magically proves your point that he reacts to activate intangibility, partial or otherwise? Didn't think so.
Nobody is mad about it. I actually find it quite hilarious (and laughable) that the entirety of your posts are based on the speed feat ... that didn't even happen. Charged and blizted Kaguya ... Absurd.
You have given me zero proof to back it up that he reacts to Sasuke. Zero proof that teleportation wouldn't work. Zero proof that he is anywhere near Naruto whose Bushin failed to react. Zero canon scans for Blitzing and charging at Kaguya. All that is nothing but a pile of speculation ... and I am the one who is crying? If you know what irony stands for, then your post reeks of it.
Genjutsu isn't something that would overlap with Kakashi...
Though I'm not sure if that specific genjutsu is for the Bijuus. Sasuke's ocular powers reflected upon the Bijuu just like Obito and Madara's would reflect upon them as well.
Though I'm not sure if that specific genjutsu is for the Bijuus. Sasuke's ocular powers reflected upon the Bijuu just like Obito and Madara's would reflect upon them as well.
Zero proof? I just posted a scan of Sasuke's canon teleportation. His teleportation is always used alike; by teleporting next to the target and striking from close range. It was proven twice, by Kaguya and by Naruto, that the victim can react to Sasuke appearing next to him, whereupon it's up to the victim whether or how he counters the strike from close range. It's canon, shown in the Manga.
So why do need I to prove whether Kamui can react or not? In a battle, the intangibility reacted to Ay's speed, was fast enough to safe Sasuke from Jinton, was fast enough to let Juubi Jin Madara's hand slip through Obito and made the ash bones slip through him. Yet you want me to prove whether Kakashi can react to Sasuke striking from close range after he appeared next to him?
You have no points.
That disproves the case I presented about Naruto and that teleportation incident? Or that disproves the fact that Kakashi's speed league is quite large, not limited like Naruto and Sasuke? I don't think it does.
Those individuals obviously match Sasuke's speed. Why are you even prolonging this? There is no proof that Kakashi is anywhere near Sasuke or Naruto's league in reaction and speed and it's just cannon manga logic. Since he isn't, he cannot react to activate Intangibility in time. I don't see what these examples prove for Kakashi. Nothing.
If your 'charged and blitzed' arguments are anything to go by, yeah, totally agreed.
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JStar King
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BenjerminGaye
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The bold is incorrect,
he doesnt necessarily need to strike and attack from close range
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which would not only be quicker but would heavily damage kakashi Yes a proof is required since V1 Ays speed, Jinton or a mere hand of Madara are no where near as fast as Sasukes S/T or even his shunshin
furthermore, intangibility itself is activated upon the users reflexes, if the user lacks the reflexes to react to something than its not being activated,
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kakashi reacting to instant teleportation that even juubi jin madara was bltized by is a mere speculation, and you need to prove how he can react here, especially when he cant even percieve the jutsu either, whereas in sasukes case, he can percieve kamui,
please just stop, Sasuke sees the raikiri form and evades it with his S/T
No it doesnt,
especially when Sasuke can use his weapons to instantly stab kakashi,
She would evade the attack through his instant teleportation, which kamui certainly isnt,And how would changing dimension safe her?
@Bold - no he isnt, he isnt blitzing kaguya, when she saw him coming, well before the attack was executed,
that isnt blitzing at all, especially when she simply chose to not evade the attack for some unknown reason,
realistically, when she seees kakashi charging at her, she can just use her interdimensional teleportation to evade his attack with utmost ease, there really is no need to claim that kakashi could blitz her, when his kamui raikiri is still based on the speed of kamui, which even something like FTG has outrunned
Umm i dont think you know what reaction really is?
she saw kakashi coming, meaning that she reacted to him,
like i said above, she can just use her interdimensional teleportation and evade his attack,
she simply chose to not evade the attack, this doesnt imply in anyway whatsoever that she was blitzed
half of ur points are debunked, especially on ur views over amenotejikara,
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this is the same attack which
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yet juubi jin madara was outright blitzed by Sasukes S/T nor could he or kakashi percieve it any way whatsoever,
meaning the same happens to kakashi,
and unlike madara, he suffers a much worse fate once he gets pierced by his sword which sasuke can augment through his raitons
secondly, ur entire argument is based on kakashi ''blitzing'' kaguya which is nothhing but wrong,just because one cant evade an attack, doesnt mean that they got blitzed,
by that logic i can say that sasuke blitzed JJ madara through his shunshin alone, since madara couldnt react and got severed in half, thats not how it works
moreover, his kamui raikiri is likely to be of the speed comparable to Double Kamui, which is slower than even
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, someone who is much slower and less reflexive than JJ madara, who got ''actually got blitzed'' by sasuke, Why not?
you either need the same or superior eyes to counter/break the genjutsu,
Sasukes genjutsu managed to capture ALL 9 bijuus at a single glance,
kakashi gets caught, and wont be able to break the genjutsu before sasuke kills him,
this instance wont be much different from 3T kakashi vs Tsukuyomi where kakashis 3T (weaker eye) was unable to counter tsukyomi (genjutsu from stronger eye) and instead, kakashi got hospitalised,
sasuke didnt use it against naruto due to his sensing, and partner method,
besides just because he didnt use it, doesnt mean that kakashi could counter it
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BenjerminGaye
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@Kifflom. How is that stopping it. Running away from an attack doesn't stop an attack therefore my statement on kamui raikiri(it being unstoppable) still stands.
Sasuke's st has cooldown. kamui doesn't.
End result remains the same.
D b4 confirmed how broken kamui raikiri is.
Sasuke's st has cooldown. kamui doesn't.
End result remains the same.
D b4 confirmed how broken kamui raikiri is.
I have no clue what u mean on ''stopping'' kamui raikiri,, but it can certainly be countered thats for sure
and it doesnt matter whether his S/T has a cooldown, he doesnt need more than 1 or 2 hits to kill kakashi
end result remains the same - kakashi gets killed and severed in half
BenjerminGaye
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1 or 2 hits?How is he gonna hit an intangible kakashi? Where as his only way to dodge Kamui raikiri as said by you is rinne shifting. Somthing he can only do once or twice back to back.
Unstoppable kamui raikiri ends it. The only counter you brought to the table has cooldown.
Unorthodox
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Please stop with this terrible logic lol why didnt Madara use his preta path on Naruto YRS or any of their attacks for that matter he had the sage senjutsu so the nature energy part would not be a problem and we've already seen naruto say that his ninjutsu is completely useless to Kaguya same with Sasuke point is Characters dont always use all of their abilities in fights Naruto could have easily used his Kurama avatar in that fight with Kaguya but didnt Sasuke not once tried chidori on his Susanoo etc Naruto was also about to be soloed with Tsuki no mi a rinnegan genjutsu so that alone shows that Kakashi having half of rikudou chakra means nothing it just puts them on even footing Genjutsu would and could catch him no matter who chakra he has having the MS is nothing especially since its a rinnegan Genjutsu witch can only be countered via rinnegan.
when you find a better source then we can talk
he doesnt need to dodge the part or Kakashi body that is solid is easily bested by his susanoo or his Chidorasu
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or his preta turns it to food
By your logic, HM Naruto > Juubito in speed, so HM Naruto > BSM Naruto and EMS Sasuke because he blitzed Juubito and rest didn't.
Understand?
This logic is crappier than crap. You know exactly the reason why Sasuke failed and Kakashi managed to do so. But you choose to neglect that fact.
I'll try to make it clearer a last time and explicitly prove any point I make. After this effort, if you don't agree, we will all have to agree to disagree.
@Kifflom
- He doesn't teleport his sword into the target. Madara charged towards Sasuke [
- Sasuke's s/t speed is on par with Minato's FTG speed, but, Minato has the advantage of marking the object to directly teleport into it. I'll make an example.
- When Minato throws his Kunai before the opponents feet, he teleports before him and then attacks from close range [
This gives the opponent the chance to react to the strike [
- It was the same with Sasuke's teleportation. Madara reacted to Sasuke appearing before him [
- against Naruto: Sasuke teleports behind Naruto and
- against Kaguya: Sasuke teleports next to Kaguya and
The difference between Naruto and Kaguya was:
Naruto had no means to dodge this Chidori from close range, as forming Chakra-arms or Gudodamas would be too complex, he simply had no time to create a shield or a counter before being hit, but he reacted to Sasuke appearing behind him.
Kaguya on the other hand used a sort of technique which Kakashi also uses, to escape Sasuke's strike; space time technique. Means, she doesn't have to react with a counter attack like Chakra-arms, which she first needs to form, she just needs to slip through her portal.
The conclusion is: The opponent doesn't need to react at Sasuke's Shunshin or strike, he only needs to react at Sasuke appearing, which was always the case. Like it was the case with Madara, who acknowledged Sasuke's speed in an inner dialouge. From there, it's about the opponent to counter or dodge the strike. Madara couldn't counter it, as he had no Limbo and just one Rinnegan. Naruto couldn't counter it because he had no time to form complex counters like Chakra arms. Kaguya could counter it, because he used space time technique to just slip through a portal.
What's the difference between Sasuke's teleportation and Minato's, when the opponent is marked? Minato doesn't appear before the target before he strikes. Teleportation and strike happen in the same instant, hence Minato teleported with his Kunai ahead into Obito. No chance to react. But against Sasuke, Kakashi will have the chance to react. As soon as Sasuke appears next to Kakashi, his Kamui reacts. Just like Obito reacted to Madara, who wanted to catch his Rinnegan from the closest possible range [
Thus, Kamui counters Sasuke's s/t technique.
To answer a few of your points:
"double kamuis speed was comparable to madaras TSB based attack this is the same attack which madara confirmed to be slower than rinbo hengoku,"
Inapplicable comparison. The TSB projectiles were comparable to double Kamui's teleportation, but intangibility is another matter. Once activated, physical matter automatically overlaps with his body, making him passing through it. Like he did it when Madara tried to catch his Rinnegan at the closest range but failed. Intangibility is nearly instant; only an attack which he can't see coming (like Minato teleporting right into him), will hit him. Apart from that, there was no attack faster than Obito's intangibility. Even Jin Madara just slipped through him.
"secondly, ur entire argument is based on kakashi ''blitzing'' kaguya which is nothhing but wrong,just because one cant evade an attack, doesnt mean that they got blitzed,"
Let's say I was wrong and Kakashi didn't charge towards Kaguya. How it happen doesn't matter, it matters that it happened. Even if Sasuke avoids that with his s/t technique, how long will he able to dodge? Fact is, his s/t technique has an interval, Kamui has no interval.
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After such an effort, I can say that we either agree or disagree, but I can't be bothered to spend any more time to discuss this matter. So I won't reply to counters resulted of disagreement.
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Get your facts straight.
Done here.
@Kifflom
- He doesn't teleport his sword into the target. Madara charged towards Sasuke [
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] and Sasuke switched places with his sword which he threw before [
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], so Madara ended up flying into the sword, while Sasuke appeared at the location where his sword was after he threw it [
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]. - Sasuke's s/t speed is on par with Minato's FTG speed, but, Minato has the advantage of marking the object to directly teleport into it. I'll make an example.
- When Minato throws his Kunai before the opponents feet, he teleports before him and then attacks from close range [
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].This gives the opponent the chance to react to the strike [
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].- It was the same with Sasuke's teleportation. Madara reacted to Sasuke appearing before him [
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]. He just had no means to counter his Shunshin, since his shadow was immobilized before that [
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], and apart from that, Madara had no technique to protect himself, as he had just one Rinnegan and a stake. The other two times where Sasuke used his teleportation, it was just the same pattern;- against Naruto: Sasuke teleports behind Naruto and
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(note that Sasuke used his Katon as a distraction to further block Naruto's sight; if Sasuke shots his Katon at Kakashi, Kakashi slips through it with intangibility and stays intangible, so surprising him with teleportation becomes useless).- against Kaguya: Sasuke teleports next to Kaguya and
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.The difference between Naruto and Kaguya was:
Naruto had no means to dodge this Chidori from close range, as forming Chakra-arms or Gudodamas would be too complex, he simply had no time to create a shield or a counter before being hit, but he reacted to Sasuke appearing behind him.
Kaguya on the other hand used a sort of technique which Kakashi also uses, to escape Sasuke's strike; space time technique. Means, she doesn't have to react with a counter attack like Chakra-arms, which she first needs to form, she just needs to slip through her portal.
The conclusion is: The opponent doesn't need to react at Sasuke's Shunshin or strike, he only needs to react at Sasuke appearing, which was always the case. Like it was the case with Madara, who acknowledged Sasuke's speed in an inner dialouge. From there, it's about the opponent to counter or dodge the strike. Madara couldn't counter it, as he had no Limbo and just one Rinnegan. Naruto couldn't counter it because he had no time to form complex counters like Chakra arms. Kaguya could counter it, because he used space time technique to just slip through a portal.
What's the difference between Sasuke's teleportation and Minato's, when the opponent is marked? Minato doesn't appear before the target before he strikes. Teleportation and strike happen in the same instant, hence Minato teleported with his Kunai ahead into Obito. No chance to react. But against Sasuke, Kakashi will have the chance to react. As soon as Sasuke appears next to Kakashi, his Kamui reacts. Just like Obito reacted to Madara, who wanted to catch his Rinnegan from the closest possible range [
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]. This is how Kakashi as well will react to Sasuke, who strikes from close range after he appeared. If Sasuke could strike the same moment he appears, like Minato, who teleports to a marked destination, he would certainly win. But unfortunately, he never showed he can but only teleporting next to the target, giving him the chance to react.Thus, Kamui counters Sasuke's s/t technique.
To answer a few of your points:
"double kamuis speed was comparable to madaras TSB based attack this is the same attack which madara confirmed to be slower than rinbo hengoku,"
Inapplicable comparison. The TSB projectiles were comparable to double Kamui's teleportation, but intangibility is another matter. Once activated, physical matter automatically overlaps with his body, making him passing through it. Like he did it when Madara tried to catch his Rinnegan at the closest range but failed. Intangibility is nearly instant; only an attack which he can't see coming (like Minato teleporting right into him), will hit him. Apart from that, there was no attack faster than Obito's intangibility. Even Jin Madara just slipped through him.
"secondly, ur entire argument is based on kakashi ''blitzing'' kaguya which is nothhing but wrong,just because one cant evade an attack, doesnt mean that they got blitzed,"
Let's say I was wrong and Kakashi didn't charge towards Kaguya. How it happen doesn't matter, it matters that it happened. Even if Sasuke avoids that with his s/t technique, how long will he able to dodge? Fact is, his s/t technique has an interval, Kamui has no interval.
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After such an effort, I can say that we either agree or disagree, but I can't be bothered to spend any more time to discuss this matter. So I won't reply to counters resulted of disagreement.
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HM Naruto never blitzed Juubito. Tobirama teleported Naruto with his Rasengan ahead into Obito [Jaeger said:
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]. Get your facts straight.Done here.
...HM Naruto never blitzed Juubito. Tobirama teleported Naruto with his Rasengan ahead into Obito [You must be registered for see links].
Done here.
Exactly my point. The only reason why Kakashi could hit her was because he was intangible.
