Proof that Second Tsuchikage > Fourth Hokage (Actual Explanation Inside)

[Omnislash X SageMode]

(IMO)Muu has the advantage....minato has counters....Minato would have to win by placing the seal directly on Muu which i doubt....Minato cant sense him because he has no presence..In order for Minato to reidrect his attacks is by having the seal on him or being able to get a kunai over to where muu is before the attack reaches him....Dust techs are rather fast.....idk if its faster than a TBB but in order to redirect it to muu he has to have the kunai in range or a seal on him..what if Muu was flying very high? then i dont really so how thats possible...on the other hand minato has a summon he can use for a surface to jump off of...now that depends on wether or not muu can kill the summon before the option becomes available ....one jinton attack WOULD suffice....in reality...it would be a draw...but if one person must win....
Minato would win Very High difficulty due to muu not being able to be sensed and muu's jinton, and his splitting tech...

Or Muu Would win also with high to very high difficulty...Muu has to place the kill shot on minato in order to do it...with that said he needs to actually be able to hit him with the jinton or sneak up behind him with his lack of pressence....minato is fast and intelligent....how can muu do this easily? he cant...both kages are rather equal to each other....it depends on who has the fastest kill shot...(Multiple FTG kunai's Vs. the jinton tech)

My final choice is a draw....Minato cant sense him as a normal shinobi,Muu can sense minato easily but WILL be impressed/in danger by his FTGand his barrier tech....i really doubt either would be able to kill the other one without them both dying...

one does not simply kill Muu Or Minato...
though i may be forgetting some basic things but yeah...either winning by Very high difficulty or it would be a stalemate of death in battle is my choice

 

[DeViliShChild]

I have to go with Minato on this one. Simply for the fact that i believe ftg takes less chakara then dust release. So Minato can simply run around his technique and attack. Also if he really wanted to be sneak he could S/T the dust move and teleport it behind MUU

 

[Maunten]

Gamabunta doesn't have Katon. He used toad oil while Jiraiya added flame to it.

Yeah yeah yeah I know ¬.¬ realised 15 mins ago.

Still, oil on that scale?? Mu's in trouble XD

 

[ojomoh emeka]

to hit your opponent u have to be visable jst like tobi.none of mu attacks will work against minato and a hit by mu on minato gives minato an opening to mark him with his seal enabling minato to detect him anywhere on earth and strikes him by suprised with a rasengan.apart frm Ftg,minato is the fastest fighter in naruto..a ninja that can teleport is invincible.ONLY a ninja that is faster than minata can beat him.

 

[AWSUM SID]

Second Tsuchikage vs Fourth Hokage​

This is the 3rd installment in the pitting Kages against eachother this is a thread an exception to pitting a relatively unknown Kage against a very known one as both Tsuchikages we have info on are very known by most of the NB members.

This is a thread showing why the Second Tsuchikage is arguably stronger than the Fourth Hokage.

Mu was able to kill the Second Mizukage (arguably the greatest Mizukage in history) which is a massive feat and so can rival Minato in the amount of hype he has





Why the Second Tsuchikage would win against the Fourth Hokage?

1) Elemental Versatility and Infinite Battle Tactics
Due to the Second Tsuchikage possessing several elemental affinities, he is able to use them to their utmost effectiveness rather than simply using it because of the lack of choices available to them. Long range Katon (Fire) techniques allow the Second Tsuchikage to use super heated balls of flames in volleys from a distance to overwhelm the Fourth Hokage from the skies. The Second Tsuchikage can also use his wind techniques from medium range (just out of range, of the Flying Thunder God Technique) to blow away Minato in his attempts to close the gap.

At close range he can use Earth Techniques for close combat, strength boosting techniques and etc. Earth's versatility as a element allows it to be used both offensively and defensively which gives him the ability to quickly adapt to quick paced close combat.

His three natural affinities also allow him to have the elemental advantage over the Wind Element (his fire overwhelms it), his water element (his Earth element dissipates it), his Earth element protects against the wind element
and his Wind element is a natural insulator which is strong against Lightning.


2) Range of the Battle
The Second Tsuchikage's ability to fly can be used to gain a distance advantage over the Fourth Hokage as he specializes in close combat (Taijutsu, Rasengan, FTG Technique) which are all rendered useless at that range. He can also take advantage of the range by using long range volleys of Katon (Fire) techniques and maybe Fuuton (Wind) techniques to be used as a alternative.


3) Ability to Warp the Terrain
Mu could use his Dust Release to devastate the landscape from above leaving many craters in the ground causing trouble for Minato to more around effectively. This could hamper his efforts in dodging volleys of Katon attacks from the Second Tsuchikage. Large Scale Earth techniques can also be used in conjunction with the half destructed landscape to trap/crush Minato and warp the terrain to intercept Minato's movements with Earth technique related traps.


4) Ability to Evade and React to Flying Thunder God Technique
Furthermore, when these detection capabilities are employed in conjunction with his quick reflexes, he can avoid techniques that even other Kage find difficult to evade, as demonstrated when only he instinctively managed to elude the clutches of Gaara's sand hands and avoid Naruto's attack from behind.


The Second Tsuchikage's Elemental Advantage with Dust Release (his Kekkei Tota) and his Elemental affinities

Spoiler

Strengthened by Wind techniques as his Katon (fire) techniques are powered up by increasing their speed and primarily the air feeding the flames.

Immunity to Water techniques as Muu's Earth Affinity has a elemental advantage over water and could be used defensively as a massive wall to because dissipate the force of water rendering the technique less effective.

Immunity to Earth Techniques as the only solid structure element it is at the mercy of Dust release as it is physically able to be disintegrated at a molecular level.

Immunity to lightning techniques as his wind release acts as a natural insulator which stops the Lightning traveling very far and making it impossible to hit Muu unless used a very close range.

Immunity to all physical elements and pseudo elements e.g. Sand and Mud as they like Earth can be physical disintegrated.

If you check the above spoiler tag you will see that whatever element(s) Minato may possess would easily be countered by Mu's Jinton or natural elemental affinities (except if had the fire element). Even then his own Fire element fuelled by that of his wind element would easily overwhelm any fire element attacks possessed by Minato.

Alternative Arguements on why Minato could win​

Other Tactics that could be used by Mu

Spoiler

The Second Tsuchikage can use a combination of his two abilities, splitting and becoming invisible as a last resort attack. It can only be used in the event of Minato landing a successful hit which would do deadly damage.

First he could split and make a duplicate after a potentially lethal subsequently reducing his attack power by half.

Then use his absolute invisibility, to remove all traces of the 2nd body which he now inhabits, to let Minato get his guard down as he would think the battle just ended.

Finally, the Second Tsuchikage has a chance at a devastating sneak attack against Minato which could even out the levels of damage done to each party or even be potentially lethal.

What do you guys think who would win, the Second Tsuchikage or the Fourth Hokage?


Proof that the Third Kazekage > The Third Raikage -

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Proof that the Second Mizukage > The Second Hokage -

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you seem to put a lot of work into your threads. If you just compare jutsu arsenal then minato loses to even to kakashi. we don't even know minato's elemental affinity. I am confident he has one because kakashi said that as a chuunin, ninja discover their elemental affinity and later in jonin, they perfect it.
If you look at it, FTG is enough to bring down anyone. The user reaches the target so fast that the latter would find it hard to react. And he has a second level of FTG as shown against the fight with tobi.
Keep in mind that minato is the only shinobi to have injured tobi so that says a lot about his abilities. I would say that minato would win the bout with high difficulty

 

[raju22]

A tough match but i think Minato takes this one, Muu can be fooled by Minatos ftg while hitting him with jinton, Minato can teliport from inside the cube formed by muu and hit him from behind, muu is a sensor true but he wont be able to dodge an attack while forming jinton and Minato was able to hit Tobi who can go intangible instantly.

 

[ojomoh emeka]

to hit your opponent u have to be visable jst like tobi.none of mu attacks will work against minato and a hit by mu on minato gives minato an opening to mark him with his seal enabling minato to detect him anywhere on earth and strikes him by suprised with a rasengan.apart frm Ftg,minato is the fastest fighter in naruto..a ninja that can teleport is invincible.ONLY a ninja that is faster than minata can beat him.

 

[l3m0npl3dg3]

Hmm very difficult i cant even say one has a big advantage on the other but if muu uses his invisibility jutsu and minato isnt able to track him then muu but minato could jus simply teleport out of trouble if attacked i jus cant say i hate both of these characters defensive prowess

 

[BlkMagk]

Wow, interesting argument. I totally see where your head is at. He can effectively overwhelm minato, but to really get in his head, you'd have to out wit him. Yeah, using the environment and intelligence would be best for minato. But if the tsuchikage could really take in any quick analyzations, he would realize to stay away from direct confrontation in the battle (superior close range fighter/FTG).

 

[ulqui0rra]

i'd say u r underestimating minato hugely .

space time barier - ur jutsu can be teleported anywhere he has seal so . in this case what if he decides to through the particle style back to u using the kunai

in terms of reflexes mu is no where near minato , if he touches mu just ones there is just no hope for him to survive .

 

[Gooner4life]

I agree, I think Muu has this. Minato's speed may be a problem making it hard to catch Minato with Jinton, but at the same time Minato sensory techniques are taken out of the equation if Muu uses his flight technique. Muu's large scale earth release will be a problem as he can make FTG's range more limited. Bunta doesn't share Minato's speed and could be taken care of by Muu. Minato is smart though and with enough time may think of a way to counter them and there may be a chance if he tags him, but that definitely wont be easy so all in all Muu takes this. The thing it is nearly impossible to conclude without knowing more about Minato but if Minato gets a chance to tag him, it would swing Minato's way as the advantage of Muu's invisibility is gone. I still think Muu has this though but it is more a situational thing than something we can easily say.

 

[The Eye]

One of the major difficulties of fighting Muu is that he relies on his invisibility to provide a clear opening for a Jinton technique. It works against most people, because they don't have enough time to physically avoid the blast: they may be able to react, but by then it's too late. So long as Minato catches a glimpse of an attack, he can dodge via FTG. It doesn't matter how much time Minato has to avoid, because he can do so instantaneously. The issue with him is reacting, and I think he can do that with

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. Once Muu's location is revealed, it'll be a downhill battle for him. Minato's the quicker and more skilled fighter, and without his invisibility protecting him, he won't last long.

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. With Minato's reflexes and FTG, I don't see him ever getting hit. Minato will be able to see where Muu is attacking from, that's when he can counter, because lets not forget, Muu must turn visible to attack. He can also use summons to aid him. Gamabunta using water pistol for example, as this is a good long range attack. If Muu wants to waste precious chakra using Jinton on a summon, then that's his problem. Once Minato has pinpointed his location, he could use V2 FTG on a moving kunai to land a Rasengan.

I mean, I have seen speed calculations that place Pain and Sage Mode Naruto at Mach 5+ speeds. They don't even compare to the Raikage, who inturn was bettered by Minato. And to put it simply, Muu has no speed feats.

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against Tobi and the Kyuubi actually suggested that he couldn't even be seen.

We know that Muu would be difficult to sense. But to be fair,

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to Tobi who can't be sensed either. He is also hides his physcal presence (touch), which is why I don't think Muu will hit him especially if he must turn visible to attack via taijutsu.

The only Jinton move which is unlikely to be redirected is the one which captures the target within it. Tobi was able to have time to go in and

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, so there's no chance of Minato dying by it with his S/T ninjutsu.

Even if the situation arises where Mianto runs out of kunai, he can always place seals in the environment, and do so subtely. We saw this when he tagged Killer B without being noticed by both the

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Alternatively, Minato could just Summon Ma & Pa and have them use frog song, as we know someone who has a contract with the chief toad is able to summon all other toads. Minato falls under this catergory.

All in all, i'd this one to Minato, mid - high difficulty.

never cease to amaze me lolz

If you compare minato to the 2nd on paper 9/10 minato has already lost the battle. But if you place them in a fight, we all can till minato would beat him. i can state several things why but like ryuu already stated, minato has the upper hand. And to top things off this is an undeveloped character that we dont even know his chakra affinity.

 

[FizzyDrink]

My turn!

I'm sorry OP, but I must disagree with you. To begin with, there is still much we do not know about Minato (we know, according to Kakashi, that jounin must know at least 2 or 3 chakra natures, which means Minato must have at least known that many). And also, I have this feeling that Minato has more levels of FTG...but that is just me. This means he clearly has more than we know.

Also, as Ryuu pointed out, his reflexes and Space-Time mean that he never gets hit by jinton, which is Muu's best move. Also, if Muu is on the ground, Minato can sense his precise location with his finger sensory technique.

Other points are that if Muu uses Jinton, Minato can redirect it back towards Muu like he redirected Kurama's TBB. Also, considering that his seals are on his kunai, which are thrown, with FTG level 2, he can reach Muu even if he is flying (although Muu could use fuuton to send them away). Also the fact that Minato is capable of placing seals anywhere secretly, allowing him to teleport to places that are unpredictable. He also has all sorts of toad summons, and they can aid him in many ways.

All in all, I say Minato takes this one. Muu's only chance is to fly and spam powerful attacks, but Minato has the means to avoid them, and at that rated, Muu runs out of chakra way faster. Also taking into account Minato's geniusness, which means he could very possibly think of a strategy in which he reaches Muu even in flight. Overall, I give Minato the upper edge.

 

[shloabsky]

MUU WINS THIS!!!!!

-Fanboys are stupid when they say that Minato is the fastest ninja ever(actually dan is) ITS HIS TELEPORTING JUTSU THAT MAKES HIM FAST!!!!!

Muu would beat minato

 

[FizzyDrink]

MUU WINS THIS!!!!!

-Fanboys are stupid when they say that Minato is the fastest ninja ever(actually dan is) ITS HIS TELEPORTING JUTSU THAT MAKES HIM FAST!!!!!

Muu would beat minato

Hahaha, da hell? Teleportation is instantaneous. So yeah, he's the fastest ninja. His reflexes are also insane. Muu has no way of actually hitting Minato in the first place.

 

[Negative Knight]

Woah nice opinions guys

But now im here to show why i'm right (Lol jk)

Fuuton can be used for the purpose of blowing away Kunai to redirect them where Muu wants them and use powerful Katon attacks to hit those locations

Muu can also turn invisible and hide, if Minato tries to sense waiting for a attack he will be in the wrong stance to escape a close range one

Muu could use Large scale Earth techniques to distort the land itself so Minato's landings are hampered and he staggers for a few seconds

This gives Muu the oppoturnity to hit him with Katon or pressure him to move again, send another volley of Katon but this time Minato can move instantly because of the lack of prep (at least bringing out a kunai, not possible whilst not material)

 

[Masashi Kishimotoo]

Well I feel......
1. Yes Muu has good reflexes but ftg is way 2 fast.....(as seen in Minato vs Tobi)

2. If Minato gets trapped inside that dust cube/sphere he can always use ftg to come out of it (like Tobi while saving Sasuke)n b4 Muu can turn him to dust...he'll be out of that

3. Muu can split yes.....but that requires a hell lot a chakra.....

4. Even if Muu can fly.....he's no match for Minato's speed....

5. About intelligence....definitely Muu is very intelligent n has a lot of experience....but even Minato is intelligent.....there is a reason why Minato was named a kage(one reason is that he was a prodigy)....he became a kage when there was already one(the professor).....

6. About having only 3 tsuchikages....Konoha was the first to have the village system....later on the others followed....so you don't know when these people started this system.....n also Minato died very young...so that's the reason why Konoha has 5 kages.....

Ok comming back to the topic....

7. Now as yellowfang said...we've never really seen Minato fight....with the jutsu that has been shown he is in the same league as the chunins(except for ftg)...so I can say that Minato can't be easily defeated by Muu...but I dunno how Minato's gonna defeat him(maybe by sealing him.....cuz I think Muu can afford to be hit by Rassengan atleast once)

8. If Muu keeps flying off high to avoid being attacked by Minato....then even Minato can teleport himself to some safe place where he can avoid Muu...
If the location is a closed placed where you can't run away....then even Muu is in a danger of being hit by ftg...

Now...the only thing that I feel Muu has an advantage over Minato is that the fact he can go invisible....n he's a great sensor ninja.....

Bdw....+rep to you for a good thread...has a lot of work in it

This ^

 

[Zeref]

i will say minato

 

[Rike Senju]

Woah nice opinions guys

But now im here to show why i'm right (Lol jk)

Fuuton can be used for the purpose of blowing away Kunai to redirect them where Muu wants them and use powerful Katon attacks to hit those locations

Muu can also turn invisible and hide, if Minato tries to sense waiting for a attack he will be in the wrong stance to escape a close range one

Muu could use Large scale Earth techniques to distort the land itself so Minato's landings are hampered and he staggers for a few seconds

This gives Muu the oppoturnity to hit him with Katon or pressure him to move again, send another volley of Katon but this time Minato can move instantly because of the lack of prep (at least bringing out a kunai, not possible whilst not material)

Imo muu won't be able to spam wind fire and earth techs like your putting it..also muu's invisibility is not that great as he has to turn invisible again to strike. Also even without FTG minato's base speed is pretty fast.

 

[Deadai]

this one is rather difficult to say... I am thinking Mu could pull it off but only if he is quick enough his invisible state.