Minato supporters keeping saying he can dodge enough Dust attacks so that Muu can run out of chakra but he obviously can do a lot when he was pitted against Oonoki without a sign of fatigue
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Muu has proven quick reflexes when dodging sudden surprise attacks, as well as immediately after being able to sense enemies. A perfect attribute to counter Minato's speed/ftg
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Muu was also shown to carry 2 swords so he must be proficient in Taijutsu as well as sword play so he can as well be a formidable hand to hand fighter which is something Minato specializes in.
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So with that and his quick reflexes as shown Muu can as well be on par with Minato's speed/ftg and close range attacks. Plus his superior sensing skills will be able to keep up with Minato's ftg and movements. On top of that he has invisiblity with 3 elements and dust tech.
Take in mind that it took 3 Kage level fighters, the main character Naruto, his prior apprentice and the Kazekage Gaara to take him on.
Also note that his splitting technique fooled all 3 of them since in all reality he wasn't defeated by the 3.
This is one of those fights that if you plugged in the data we have available into a simulator and ran this battle 100 times, you would find that they both are capable of defeating the other. That being said, clearly there has to be one that comes out on top (that is, wins the fight more times than loses).
I'm going to assume neither fighter has information on the other, give them standard terrain (a forest, open field or deserted area), and their usual selection of ninja tools. With these conditions, I think most people without bias would have to give this one to the Second Tsuchikage.
The quick and easy reasons: Both opponents have techniques and tools at their disposal that work very well as a surprise. Since neither one knows about the other, Muu comes out on top because lets face it; the ability to hide your entire presence is insane. You combine a perfect approach with his kekkei genkai which easily one-shots any normal opponent and you have victory on just about every non-prepared opponent.
For the Minato fans, don't fret it's not a big deal. This particular opponent is just about too much for anyone simply because he's been blessed with two very over-powered techs. I honestly would give Minato the edge in most categories if you were comparing them side by side. Intelligence, physical ability, technique (not arsenal, execution), and more can all be given to Minato edge-wise. Unfortunately it's a bit of a moot point if you are dead before you even know you were in a fight.
The results vary based on battle conditions but the only way I see Minato winning more times than losing is if he has knowledge but the Tsuchikage doesn't. In a situation such as that, it's a bit overkill. It's been demostrated quite a bit that having knowledge on a character can greatly increase success in the Narutoverse.
If you're curious about my thoughts if they both have full knowledge, I'm leaning towards a 60/40 split favoring the Tsuchikage. That being, Minato only wins 40% of the time.
Also, I'm a big fan of Minato and don't really care for the second Tsuchikage in the least.
I would of accounted for information but that would of been overkill on my part as there would be nothing left to discuss if i talked about everything.
Its true but remember Minato can learn the basic mechanics and weaknesses of a jutsu after seeing it one time e.g. with Kakashi's Chidori
But yeah Muu was very intelligent, he worked out who found his position in a matter of seconds and i'm sure he can apply this to battle to realize Minato's dependency on the Kunai he uses to use FTG.
If he utilizes his Wind Element attacks then he could simply redirect whole rains of Kunai without much effort at all
First off, allow me to start this by saying I am not a Minato fan. In fact, I find Tsuchikage Muu amazingly cool, and hate how trolled he was. Muu is cooler than Minato.
Sadly, I have to lean towards Minato in this one. Not only is he considered so godly that ninja were ordered to flee on sight but some of your points do not add up. Muu would not be able to avoid Minato's moves, if he could not even avoid the slower Raikage. Notice that Madara was still able to regain his balance after being his by the STRONGER Tsunade, but Muu looked like a wuss landing on the ground with the Raikage's strike.
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Now, Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan Madara had to go EASY on TWO Tsuchikages. This shows that their technique is useless in close range combat, and with a nimble opponent like Madara or Minato, they cannot use Dust Element. I don't think EMS Madara would have to go easy on Minato. Muu just cannot hit him...Not from close or far range.
the 4th hokage would take this, A told naruto that his dad was a ninja whos skills were so far advance that he thought no one could ever surpass him. that tells you alot
First off, allow me to start this by saying I am not a Minato fan. In fact, I find Tsuchikage Muu amazingly cool, and hate how trolled he was. Muu is cooler than Minato.
Sadly, I have to lean towards Minato in this one. Not only is he considered so godly that ninja were ordered to flee on sight but some of your points do not add up. Muu would not be able to avoid Minato's moves, if he could not even avoid the slower Raikage. Notice that Madara was still able to regain his balance after being his by the STRONGER Tsunade, but Muu looked like a wuss landing on the ground with the Raikage's strike.
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Now, Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan Madara had to go EASY on TWO Tsuchikages. This shows that their technique is useless in close range combat, and with a nimble opponent like Madara or Minato, they cannot use Dust Element. I don't think EMS Madara would have to go easy on Minato. Muu just cannot hit him...Not from close or far range.
When Raikage and Tsunade came through it was the most unexpected surprise attack, plus Muu was half strength so he was half everything in terms of that attack.
How do you know if Muu was in his prime or even the tsuchikage at the time of facing Madara, or even knew of dust tech? Plus Madara is on a whole other level, compared to everyone else, the ultimate troll in Naruto.
Interesting analysis, but I think you're forgetting something. Minato can put the FTG seal on an opponent by touching him once. I think a shinobi of Minato's caliber can manage to touch Muu once. And when he does the invisibility won't matter, he'll be able to find him if he needs to. Also, the particle style jutsus require many handseals and if Minato sees Muu using them then he can use FTG and move around at varying times to varying locations to throw off Muu's aim. This works with most jutsus.
Very, very nice argument. Mu really is an OP character. He can't be sensed, he can turn completely invisible, ha can make his chakra completely hidden, Dust Release is a potential one shotter, Fire, Earth, and Wind Elements, etc.
Mu has a very good chance against Minato +rep.
Can anyone counter the argument for Muu spliting after Minato thinking it's a final blow and won then match, when Muu can just invisible neck slash him from behind when he's not expecting?
Minato supporters keeping saying he can dodge enough Dust attacks so that Muu can run out of chakra but he obviously can do a lot when he was pitted against Oonoki without a sign of fatigue
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Muu has proven quick reflexes when dodging sudden surprise attacks, as well as immediately after being able to sense enemies. A perfect attribute to counter Minato's speed/ftg
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Muu was also shown to carry 2 swords so he must be proficient in Taijutsu as well as sword play so he can as well be a formidable hand to hand fighter which is something Minato specializes in.
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So with that and his quick reflexes as shown Muu can as well be on par with Minato's speed/ftg and close range attacks. Plus his superior sensing skills will be able to keep up with Minato's ftg and movements. On top of that he has invisiblity with 3 elements and dust tech.
Take in mind that it took 3 Kage level fighters, the main character Naruto, his prior apprentice and the Kazekage Gaara to take him on.
Also note that his splitting technique fooled all 3 of them since in all reality he wasn't defeated by the 3.
Muu has not shown a speed feat to suggest he could keep up with Minato.
He cannot remain invisible if he wishes to attack, so it's really a non factor when we consider Muu's offensive techniques.
If Muu chooses to fight at close range, he risks being touched and tagged by Minato, in which case the match is pretty much over.
Muu can't spam Jinton to the degree in which Minato can spam FTG. Jinton clearly would take up a larger amount of Muu's chakra supply. Also consider he may have to waste two or three blasts just to remove Minato's summons from play.
Muu has not shown a speed feat to suggest he could keep up with Minato.
He cannot remain invisible if he wishes to attack, so it's really a non factor when we consider Muu's offensive techniques.
If Muu chooses to fight at close range, he risks being touched and tagged by Minato, in which case the match is pretty much over.
Muu can't spam Jinton to the degree in which Minato can spam FTG. Jinton clearly would take up a larger amount of Muu's chakra supply. Also consider he may have to waste two or three blasts just to remove Minato's summons from play.
I agree Muu can't keep up in close combat but im sure he is 100% capable of preventing Minato from calling Summons
As for his FTG technique spam, it has a big weakness and that's the reliance on Kunai getting close to or to the intended target
Muu can simply use basic Fuuton volleys to send the Kunai (lightweight) flying and a considerable distance from where Minato wanted to land.
Also Muu can use this in combination with large scale earth techniques e.g. simple fuuton blasts to set up and then warp the landscape to cause further distortion for Minato
Weak Fuuton blasts are enough to deflect Kunai but not chakra consuming enough to have a significant effect on Muu's chakra level considering Oonki's stamina with Jinton (should have some chakra drain on Muu) and the fact Oonki is far past his prime
Mu cannot be seen due to his invisibility technique mabbe someone with a byakugan sharingan or rinnegan can see him but inato does not have either of those kekkei genkai's so he would ot be able to attack him. All Mu would have to do is turn invisible and use Dust Release: Detachment of the Primitive World Technique
and he would send minato to another dimension wich makes Mu the winner this battle will mostly be about techniques NOT skill.....WINNER: Second Tsuchikage Mu
Muu could probably pull off a win if he snuck up on Minato and blasted him into oblivion. If not, well, he'd have the fight of his life dealing with Minato's speed. It could go either way.
I agree Muu can't keep up in close combat but im sure he is 100% capable of preventing Minato from calling Summons
As for his FTG technique spam, it has a big weakness and that's the reliance on Kunai getting close to or to the intended target
Muu can simply use basic Fuuton volleys to send the Kunai (lightweight) flying and a considerable distance from where Minato wanted to land.
Also Muu can use this in combination with large scale earth techniques e.g. simple fuuton blasts to set up and then warp the landscape to cause further distortion for Minato
Weak Fuuton blasts are enough to deflect Kunai but not chakra consuming enough to have a significant effect on Muu's chakra level considering Oonki's stamina with Jinton (should have some chakra drain on Muu) and the fact Oonki is far past his prime
Muu would just be wasting chakra on petty things. Minato can always FTG to his kunai and pick it up again if it does not land where he wants it to.
While Muu has such techniques, this is mere assumption because he lacks the feats we must use when discussing things like this. Can you name said Earth or Wind techniques? Because we know Nagato can use all 5 basic nature transformations but we can't use that when we debate as we lack the proper knowledge on what specific techniques his arsenal consists of.
In any case, I don't know how Muu plans on countering frog song.
Minato will win easy-mid difficulty. Why? Lack of knowledge. Since Minato is born generations after him, he is not suppose to know that he must avoid kunais. So if Minato lands a kunai or his marking near him, he could use rasengan to finish him exactly like Naruto did or like he did against Tobi, and since it's instant teleportation, his sensor ability won't help
This is the 3rd installment in the pitting Kages against eachother this is a thread an exception to pitting a relatively unknown Kage against a very known one as both Tsuchikages we have info on are very known by most of the NB members.
This is a thread showing why the Second Tsuchikage is arguably stronger than the Fourth Hokage.
Mu was able to kill the Second Mizukage (arguably the greatest Mizukage in history) which is a massive feat and so can rival Minato in the amount of hype he has
Why the Second Tsuchikage would win against the Fourth Hokage?
1) Elemental Versatility and Infinite Battle Tactics
Due to the Second Tsuchikage possessing several elemental affinities, he is able to use them to their utmost effectiveness rather than simply using it because of the lack of choices available to them. Long range Katon (Fire) techniques allow the Second Tsuchikage to use super heated balls of flames in volleys from a distance to overwhelm the Fourth Hokage from the skies. The Second Tsuchikage can also use his wind techniques from medium range (just out of range, of the Flying Thunder God Technique) to blow away Minato in his attempts to close the gap.
At close range he can use Earth Techniques for close combat, strength boosting techniques and etc. Earth's versatility as a element allows it to be used both offensively and defensively which gives him the ability to quickly adapt to quick paced close combat.
His three natural affinities also allow him to have the elemental advantage over the Wind Element (his fire overwhelms it), his water element (his Earth element dissipates it), his Earth element protects against the wind element
and his Wind element is a natural insulator which is strong against Lightning.
2) Range of the Battle
The Second Tsuchikage's ability to fly can be used to gain a distance advantage over the Fourth Hokage as he specializes in close combat (Taijutsu, Rasengan, FTG Technique) which are all rendered useless at that range. He can also take advantage of the range by using long range volleys of Katon (Fire) techniques and maybe Fuuton (Wind) techniques to be used as a alternative.
3) Ability to Warp the Terrain
Mu could use his Dust Release to devastate the landscape from above leaving many craters in the ground causing trouble for Minato to more around effectively. This could hamper his efforts in dodging volleys of Katon attacks from the Second Tsuchikage. Large Scale Earth techniques can also be used in conjunction with the half destructed landscape to trap/crush Minato and warp the terrain to intercept Minato's movements with Earth technique related traps.
4) Ability to Evade and React to Flying Thunder God Technique
Furthermore, when these detection capabilities are employed in conjunction with his quick reflexes, he can avoid techniques that even other Kage find difficult to evade, as demonstrated when only he instinctively managed to elude the clutches of Gaara's sand hands and avoid Naruto's attack from behind.
The Second Tsuchikage's Elemental Advantage with Dust Release (his Kekkei Tota) and his Elemental affinities
Strengthened by Wind techniques as his Katon (fire) techniques are powered up by increasing their speed and primarily the air feeding the flames.
Immunity to Water techniques as Muu's Earth Affinity has a elemental advantage over water and could be used defensively as a massive wall to because dissipate the force of water rendering the technique less effective.
Immunity to Earth Techniques as the only solid structure element it is at the mercy of Dust release as it is physically able to be disintegrated at a molecular level.
Immunity to lightning techniques as his wind release acts as a natural insulator which stops the Lightning traveling very far and making it impossible to hit Muu unless used a very close range.
Immunity to all physical elements and pseudo elements e.g. Sand and Mud as they like Earth can be physical disintegrated.
If you check the above spoiler tag you will see that whatever element(s) Minato may possess would easily be countered by Mu's Jinton or natural elemental affinities (except if had the fire element). Even then his own Fire element fuelled by that of his wind element would easily overwhelm any fire element attacks possessed by Minato.
Alternative Arguements on why Minato could win
Other Tactics that could be used by Mu
The Second Tsuchikage can use a combination of his two abilities, splitting and becoming invisible as a last resort attack. It can only be used in the event of Minato landing a successful hit which would do deadly damage.
First he could split and make a duplicate after a potentially lethal subsequently reducing his attack power by half.
Then use his absolute invisibility, to remove all traces of the 2nd body which he now inhabits, to let Minato get his guard down as he would think the battle just ended.
Finally, the Second Tsuchikage has a chance at a devastating sneak attack against Minato which could even out the levels of damage done to each party or even be potentially lethal.
What do you guys think who would win, the Second Tsuchikage or the Fourth Hokage?
Proof that the Third Kazekage > The Third Raikage -
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Proof that the Second Mizukage > The Second Hokage -
This is quite the battle.But with all fanboys aside i would give it to the tsuchikage.FTG would be useless if he cannot find a target to transport to.
A touch from the dust release could kill anyone instantly under most circumstances.Just like his battle with Tobi,Minato can only start thinking of a counter attack once Muu makes his move.Muu cannot be sensed so minato will have to use Muus justu once there casted as a vantage point.
This battle will probably come down to whoever gets the first hit.Once he uses ftg lvl2 Muu just might split in two.Unless minato has a lvl 3 ?
Lols - - i love this thread - - Muu Was A Great Tsuchikage - - - and he has all my respect - - - but pitting him against Minato, is something else - - i mean if naruto managed to hit him with his "disordered rotation rasengan" - - then mintao will play with him - - ur seriously underestimatin minato - - like u underestimated orochimaru !!
Lols - - i love this thread - - Muu Was A Great Tsuchikage - - - and he has all my respect - - - but pitting him against Minato, is something else - - i mean if naruto managed to hit him with his "disordered rotation rasengan" - - then mintao will play with him - - ur seriously underestimatin minato - - like u underestimated orochimaru !!
It comes down to if Muu can hit Minato which is more likely than Minato hitting him as long as Muu can keep going invisible and with the splitting technique he could have two Muus on the field that are invisible. Rasangan is not always a fatal blow but the particle technique will kill whatever it touches and is dam near instant
Lols - - i love this thread - - Muu Was A Great Tsuchikage - - - and he has all my respect - - - but pitting him against Minato, is something else - - i mean if naruto managed to hit him with his "disordered rotation rasengan" - - then mintao will play with him - - ur seriously underestimatin minato - - like u underestimated orochimaru !!
I know the battle would be close but your example is a little faulty.Naruto took the resengan and mastered it minato did not have a resengan above the normal one.Kakashi or jiraiya even mentioned that the fourth died before he perfected the justu.So comparing narutos suped up bijuu mode resegan to minatos is a bit ridiculous
Uh...You can't be a half sensor. Muu just didn't have the foresight for that. Minato was able to surprise Tobi despite how Tobi was fully aware of his abilities. As such, Minato can catch Muu by surprise even with his sensory abilities. Minato just thinks that fast.
We know Muu was in his prime because Tsuchikage would not have made it a point that EMS Madara was HOLDING BACK during that fight. If they didn't have Dust Release back then, Madara holding back would not matter. All my assumptions are based on the current information we got and not completely abstract reasoning like, "How do you know he didn't have Dust Release back then?" Kishimoto shows Madara's power by putting TWO Tsuchikages as fodder before him, and if they didn't have Dust Release it makes Kishimoto's point pointless. It's rudimentary my dear watson.
When you need to make special situations to have Muu win, it shows how out of his league he is. Face to face, Minato would trounce Muu.
