clearly different situations. Madara wasn't getting pressured against Sakura, not saying I agree with DemonicAvenger(bcuz I actually don't) but you shouldn't compare the two.
It don't matter, buttom line is, madara reacted to naruto, limbo even raised his arm to block, not even madara manifesting limbo, but limbo (which has equal stats to madara) raised his arm to block, so no, madara was'nt blitzed in any way by naruto nor sasuke (apart from ameno) which was taking him by surprise)
I don't even know were you got the notion that madara using limbo implies he can't react to something to begin with, he used it on EMS sasuke, already blocked naruto's punch while healing, limbos already shitting on naruto clones offscreen, same limbo *****slapping RSM naruto (note that limbo has equal stats to madara, so what limbo can do, madara can)
As I said, neither naruto nor sasuke can f*cking blitz madara, not his 1 eyed version, and certainly not his 2 eyed version
I don't even know were you got the notion that madara using limbo implies he can't react to something to begin with, he used it on EMS sasuke, already blocked naruto's punch while healing, limbos already shitting on naruto clones offscreen, same limbo *****slapping RSM naruto (note that limbo has equal stats to madara, so what limbo can do, madara can)
As I said, neither naruto nor sasuke can f*cking blitz madara, not his 1 eyed version, and certainly not his 2 eyed version
Maybe if you responded to KG you'd know why. Naruto blitzed Kaguya without reaction, who's faster than Madara. Easily so because she never had problem reacting to Ameno while Madara couldn't
Inb4 you try to say that it was only because Madara was "taken off guard". Kaguya reacted to it without intel, and Naruto has difficulty reacting when done in combination with a distraction. The same Naruto that has better reaction feats and databook support that outright says his reflexes aslre superior to Madara's
Don't know why you mentioned him blocking the intial punch when it's irrelevant. Madara himself said that the damage Gai did had nothing to do with being pressured, and that wasn't even with a cloak
There is no fabrication. I'm saying what the databook is saying in a informal language. The databook states this in literature language:
''It's power is off limits, overturns to zero the previous knowledge of anything that taijutsu is capable off, as it twists and bends the sky itself on contact, and even half the body of the strongest ninja, Madara, was completely destroyed.''
The sky, obviously referring to the space, is twisted and bent. Space is twisted or bent either at achieving such heavy mass or running at relativistic speed, and Gai did the latter since all he did in the manga/anime was run toward Madara, and the power of his attack was generated from his speed. This is plain factual interpretation of what happened. I'm not expecting you to believe what I say, as it's not my problem what you want to believe. You said something wrong in your post and I addressed it.
Nope, it still is a fabrication and the fact that you're still using the same argument, "Gai distorted space, therefore he can move at relativistic speeds because of science" when I've already addressed why relying solely on pure logic doesn't justify your argument suggests that you're deliberately ignoring my points and have already acknowledged that I was correct which is suggested by your next argument:
Then you forfeit the point for ignoring what happened in the manga was direct physics law, so I accept your concession.
I've already provided reasoning why Gai's immense power used to pierce through space fabric wasn't a result of speed because of the language Kishimoto used in the Databook. When Kishimoto wants to convey to the reader how the power of a technique is highly dependent on speed, he makes that explicitly clear as was the case with Raikiri, Rasengan, Shikyaku no Jutsu, Raikage's Nintaijutsu, and the majority of Gai's techniques including Evening Elephant. This is something you deliberately ignore and if Kishimoto wanted to emphasize the speed of the technique, he would've outright stated it in both the Manga and Databook.
If anything, the most you could argue is that his kick was initiated at relativistic speeds as that's the only thing mentioned or shown in both the Manga and Databook that distorts space. Him simply moving around in a crimson dragon does not distort space, therefore, there's no conceivable way his movement speed is at relativistic speeds.
The entry doesn't say space was distorted as result of so-called ''immense power'', so your interpretation is plain false and everything in here was addressed, regardless of whether you want to believe it or not, but that ain't my problem.
That's flat-out denial. You've already admitted that it was a result of the taijutsu's power, only for different reasons. Anyone who has basic comprehension skills can understand that the attack's power which is nothing that's ever been seen before in the field of taijutsu resulted in Gai piercing through space itself. This is isn't even arguable. Warlocks and KidGamer65 both understood it the moment they read the Databook Entry I presented. There's nothing for you to stand on at all. Manga nor the Databook supports what you're suggesting, not even Madara emphasizes Gai's speed and the only thing we're given is that the nature of the ability is what distorts space, so I'm not inclined to believe you just because, "Gai distorted space, therefore, he moved at speed of light," which actually only applied to his flying kick to begin with.
@Bold: Madara absorbing the Shinju didn't make him ''much'' stronger or stronger, so this is irrelevant.
The Shinju outright brought Madara closer to Kaguya's Power. It did make him stronger, that's simply undeniable.
@Underlined: Madara never had trouble keeping up with Amenotejikara, and showing me scenes where Madara deliberately lets himself be hit by Sasuke isn't going to make you more correct, since you're either exaggerating, cherry picking certain scans to make you think your point is somehow correct. Madara reacted to Naruto's Shunshin, Kaguya could not; Sasuke failed to blitz Kaguya.
First and foremost, Madara never reacted to RSM Naruto's Shunshin when he actually used Bijuu Mode, so that's a dishonest argument.
Second of all, Madara was completely dumbfounded at how he escaped his Line of Sight:
You must be registered for see images
Even a basic level of understanding would dictate that if Madara couldn't even track Sasuke using Ameno which is at light-speed, then Night Moth wasn't even initiated at relativistic speeds for the sole fact that Madara reacted to Gai's Movement speed during Night Moth and even perceived the distortion of space as Gai initiated his flying kick. Clearly, he never maneuvered at relativistic speeds and saying otherwise is simply denial at this point.
I'm applying common sense just as you are through deductive reasoning, so this is undeniable, even for you.
Madara reacting to 8th Gai means Madara is that powerful and doesn't downplay any of Gai's feats.
Maybe if you responded to KG you'd know why. Naruto blitzed Kaguya without reaction, who's faster than Madara. Easily so because she never had problem reacting to Ameno while Madara couldn't
Inb4 you try to say that it was only because Madara was "taken off guard". Kaguya reacted to it without intel, and Naruto has difficulty reacting when done in combination with a distraction. The same Naruto that has better reaction feats and databook support that outright says his reflexes aslre superior to Madara's
Don't know why you mentioned him blocking the intial punch when it's irrelevant. Madara himself said that the damage Gai did had nothing to do with being pressured, and that wasn't even with a cloak
Having better reflexes than madara does'nt mean he's better (he has better reflexes than 1 eyed rinnegan madara but madara can react to him) it's like saying cuz naruto has better reflexes than sasuke then sasuke can't react to naruto.
Naruto blitzed BZ, cuz sasuke told naruto he was going ahead that he'll be the decoy, she was focused on sasuke, bz was looking at naruto, and naruto blitzed him.
Lastly sasuke used ameno in the most effective way against madara when they used jiton rasengan + chidori, cuz no one in naruto can react to that, madara was shifted between them with no space for him to react unlike kaguya's who had space between'em, and when he shifted with his blade, it was the same instance with kaguya charging at naruto and getting punched
- madara was charging with high speed and sasuke swaps with a blade (madara did'nt see that coming nor does he know sasuke can do that)
- kaguya was charging with high speed at naruto thinking he was restrained and she got punched
If you switch madara with kaguya, she would still fall for the attacks
Nope, it still is a fabrication and the fact that you're still using the same argument, "Gai distorted space, therefore he can move at relativistic speeds because of science" when I've already addressed why relying solely on pure logic doesn't justify your argument suggests that you're deliberately ignoring my points and have already acknowledged that I was correct which is suggested by your next argument:
Madara's staff was distorted upon making contact with Night Guy. Physical objects, especially something as dense as the staff, which tanked air cannons don't distort at such highly detailed shape, so it was a result of space distortion caused by Gai's relativistic speed. The manga supports this notion because it presents it in obvious scans. Reader (you) just needs to analyze the scene reasonably.
That is what I said. No fabrication since what happened in the manga and supported by the databook was Gai running toward Madara and kicked him.
You must be registered for see images
Now why would Madara say ''fast'' to describe Gai's attack? Why didn't he say ''powerful'' to describe Gai's attack? Because Gai's attack was generated from the speed he ran at, relativistic one, due to the staff bent completely. He would have said ''powerful'' and maybe your notion is correct, but that didn't happen.
You cling on ''fabrication'' if you like to. :lol
I've already provided reasoning why Gai's immense power used to pierce through space fabric wasn't a result of speed because of the language Kishimoto used in the Databook. When Kishimoto wants to convey to the reader how the power of a technique is highly dependent on speed, he makes that explicitly clear as was the case with Raikiri, Rasengan, Shikyaku no Jutsu, Raikage's Nintaijutsu, and the majority of Gai's techniques including Evening Elephant. This is something you deliberately ignore and if Kishimoto wanted to emphasize the speed of the technique, he would've outright stated it in both the Manga and Databook.
If anything, the most you could argue is that his kick was initiated at relativistic speeds as that's the only thing mentioned or shown in both the Manga and Databook that distorts space. Him simply moving around in a crimson dragon does not distort space, therefore, there's no conceivable way his movement speed is at relativistic speeds.
I'm not going to repeat what the manga and databook said, because I'v got a guy with little to zero reading comprehension.
That's flat-out denial. You've already admitted that it was a result of the taijutsu's power, only for different reasons. Anyone who has basic comprehension skills can understand that the attack's power which is nothing that's ever been seen before in the field of taijutsu resulted in Gai piercing through space itself. This is isn't even arguable. Warlocks and KidGamer65 both understood it the moment they read the Databook Entry I presented. There's nothing for you to stand on at all. Manga nor the Databook supports what you're suggesting, not even Madara emphasizes Gai's speed and the only thing we're given is that the nature of the ability is what distorts space, so I'm not inclined to believe you just because, "Gai distorted space, therefore, he moved at speed of light," which actually only applied to his flying kick to begin with.
So, you think your interpretation is correct because two buffoons, with KidGamer65 being the bigger one, liked your post? You know what this is called? Argumentum ad populum which is appealing to people because they agree with you, but that doesn't really make you correct. Like I said, I ain't repeating myself because everything is visible to read.
If you choose to ignore what the opposition is arguing and want to believe what you want, then go ahead because that's precisely what you're doing.
Then you should read dictionary for what concession is, because you ignored that the author applied physics law in his manga and has done so in many occasions before that, while you're repeating your popular nonsense that science doesn't apply to the manga, when it's contradicted by this particular instance. Therefore, you concede and I accept it.
Given your demeanor, this'll be my last reply because you obviously ignore evidence that refutes your argument and you're incapable of keeping the discussion classy.
This shouldn't even be addressed, but the fact that Kishimoto's language used in the Databook places no emphasis on speed meant that it was never considered when he wrote the scene. That alone shuts down your argument and Madara's expression clearly didn't indicate shock. There's a distinction between Madara expression when he stated that Gai's "Fast .." and Madara's astonishment when he exclaimed, "He distorted space!" The distortion of space with his flying kick was what was emphasized, not his movement speed. Madara's expression was akin to Kakashi claiming that Lee was fast when Lee took off his weights:
You must be registered for see images
There was no emphasis other than Madara and Kakashi acknowledging the other person as fast. Moving at relativistic speeds is an exaggerated feat and Madara's statement being relatively similar to Kakashi's indicates that it wasn't an astonishing feat by any means.
Now why would Madara say ''fast'' to describe Gai's attack? Why didn't he say ''powerful'' to describe Gai's attack? Because Gai's attack was generated from the speed he ran at, relativistic one, due to the staff bent completely. He would have said ''powerful'' and maybe your notion is correct, but that didn't happen.
Maybe because Gai was merely running towards Madara and not attacking him, so it'd be rather peculiar if Kishimoto did highlight his power at that point in time. As I've stated before, if Kishimoto wanted to highlight his speed, then it would have obviously been mentioned in its Databook Entry. Since that wasn't the case, that was clearly not Kishimoto's intentions when he drew the scene. It's such a simplistic concept yet you don't understand it.
Jesus...
You must be registered for see images
I'm not going to repeat what the manga and databook said, because I'v got a guy with little to zero reading comprehension.
> Ignores the context of which the Databook Statement of Gai distorting space was made.
> Then says I have lack reading comprehension when I can take into account the context of statements being made.
Databook 4 said:
Page 300
Yagai (Night Guy).
Taijutsu, close range, offensive, S-rank.
Users: Maito Guy
Like a young crimson dragon cutting through the space fabric (kūkan), the ultimate flying-kick!
Maito Guy utilizes the taijutsu move, inherited his ultimate power from his father - aka “the 8 celestial gates”. To unravel the final dragon mystery you have to open the last ”Death Gate” and be ready to sacrifice your life (poetic, isn't it?TN). From the red stream emission (Guy's blood and chakra. TN), in a form of a red burning chakra the great dragon rises, flying out of the ribcage, an absolutely unprecedented kick that hits the opponent and beats (turns) him into nothing. It's power is off limits, overturns to zero the previous knowledge of anything that taijutsu is capable off, as it twists and bends the sky itself on contact, and even half the body of the strongest ninja, Madara, was completely destroyed.
I'm questioning where you got the impression in its Databook Entry that Kishimoto was literally referring to speed. You must have zero reading comprehension to imply that he was when there's absolutely no mention of speed anywhere in its entry. In fact, I highlighted the instances where the context revolves around the technique's power to make things easier for you.
So again, how did Kishimoto emphasize speed? Madara's expression is subjective apparently, but Kishimoto's statement isn't. It's rather explicit what was significant to Kishimoto and it's the attack's power. This isn't even debatable.
You must be registered for see images
So, you think your interpretation is correct because two buffoons, with KidGamer65 being the bigger one, liked your post? You know what this is called? Argumentum ad populum which is appealing to people because they agree with you, but that doesn't really make you correct. Like I said, I ain't repeating myself because everything is visible to read.
That was never the basis of my argument and it's rather amusing to me that you chose to ignore the countless evidence that I've presented such as the language Kishimoto uses in the Databook and Madara's inability to perceive relativistic speeds through deductive reading in favor of something that I've only mentioned in literally one line of my argument. You're grasping at straws at this point.
Then you should read dictionary for what concession is, because you ignored that the author applied physics law in his manga and has done so in many occasions before that, while you're repeating your popular nonsense that science doesn't apply to the manga, when it's contradicted by this particular instance. Therefore, you concede and I accept it.
I shouldn't have to state this again, but this is a fictional universe, so whether or not Kishimoto wants physics to apply to the manga is dependent on his choice. It doesn't have to conform to physics because it's a fictional universe where anything can apply and mentioning that Kishimoto had a physics law in his mind when he wrote the scene is pure conjecture, plain and simple. The Databook which are Kishimoto's own words doesn't support your argument, so there's absolutely nothing for you to stand on.
> "Lol, Kishimoto has used physics law on so many occasions, therefore, he used it here as well."
You might as well believe that if a person is correct most of the time, then they're correct all of the time because that's exactly what you're saying.
Naruto can blitz Kaguya (albeit weakened) w/ no reaction. Gai can't do the same to the inferior Madara. It's obvious who's faster here and it's not Gai. :lol
Madara being superior would make more sense than him being inferior.
-Naruto>=Madara in reaction speed.
-Naruto blitzed Kaguya when she was weakened.
-Naruto can't blitz someone >= to him in reaction speed.
So yeah, I guess I'll have to agree that by feats Night Guy is the fastest thing in the series unless there is evidence of Weakened Kaguya>Madara or evidence of someone faster or as fast as Madara being blitzed w/ no reaction.
Madara being superior would make more sense than him being inferior.
-Naruto>=Madara in reaction speed.
-Naruto blitzed Kaguya when she was weakened.
-Naruto can't blitz someone >= to him in reaction speed.
So yeah, I guess I'll have to agree that by feats Night Guy is the fastest thing in the series unless there is evidence of Weakened Kaguya>Madara or evidence of someone faster or as fast as Madara being blitzed w/ no reaction.
I might be able to scrounge up an argument tommorow, but if he's going to use the bending space argument for Night Moth being the fastest move then he's still wrong. The Juubi's Bijudama cross multiple countries in seconds, even a low ball estimate would beat night moth
And Madara was in fact blitzed by Ameno while Kaguya reacted in said weakend stated
I might be able to scrounge up an argument tommorow, but if he's going to use the bending space argument for Night Moth being the fastest move then he's still wrong. The Juubi's Bijudama cross multiple countries in seconds, even a low ball estimate would beat night moth
And Madara was in fact blitzed by Ameno while Kaguya reacted in said weakend stated
I didn't think we were including other attacks in the discussion, if so then yeah, Juubi's BD is far faster.
How Sasuke attacked Naruto and how Sasuke attacked Kaguya was different. Sasuke attacked while warping Madara to him which is harder to evade than Sasuke warping to Madara and then attacking.
I didn't think we were including other attacks in the discussion, if so then yeah, Juubi's BD is far faster.
How Sasuke attacked Naruto and how Sasuke attacked Kaguya was different. Sasuke attacked while warping Madara to him which is harder to evade than Sasuke warping to Madara and then attacking.
My point is was that the whole bending space thing really shouldn't carry that much weight when stuff like SM Naruto's FRS is already Mach 70+ and crazy stuff like that. Manga scaling takes much more presidence. Kishi isn't going to draw real world pysical for everything
True but when sensing is a big part of their reactions it's not that much more difficult than you would think. For that to be true we'd have to assume that the Ameno Madara dodged was proportionate to how much slower Kaguya got
Which I doubt because it's not like KCM/BM Naruto was losing massive chunks of speed despite both Naruto and Kurama running low on chakra at multiple points, nor was JJ Obito getting slower after spamming BDs
My point is was that the whole bending space thing really shouldn't carry that much weight when stuff like SM Naruto's FRS is already Mach 70+ and crazy stuff like that. Manga scaling takes much more presidence. Kishi isn't going to draw real world pysical for everything
True but when sensing is a big part of their reactions it's not that much more difficult than you would think. For that to be true we'd have to assume that the Ameno Madara dodged was proportionate to how much slower Kaguya got
Which I doubt because it's not like KCM/BM Naruto was losing massive chunks of speed despite both Naruto and Kurama running low on chakra at multiple points, nor was JJ Obito getting slower after spamming BDs
Why would sensing being apart of their reactions change anything?
The only times Naruto and Kurama were running low on chakra were the times Naruto couldn't use Bijuu Mode, so that point doesn't work, and Obito using up a lot of chakra for Bijuu Dama doesn't mean that he used most of his chakra while Kaguya used up most of hers on Ameno.
-DB says that Madara and Naruto's reactions are either on par or Naruto is superior, meaning that the gap isn't that large.
-Naruto blitzed Kaguya.
-Kaguya prior to using up most of her chakra reacted to the same Ameno combo that Madara failed to react to.
So we know Kaguya>Naruto>=Madara>Weakened Kaguya
So unless Kaguya's speed before using most of her chakra is below Naruto and Madara's (which we know it isn't), then there's no way that her speed decrease wasn't more than moderate.
Kaguya reacted to a direct Ameno from slower Sasuke considering that he was barely moving in the gravity dimension which certainley affected his striking speed .Madara has also never been blitzed by a direct ameno .he was caught by ameno when it was used in a way that leaves no space or time for Madara to react and with also no intel .when Madara was hit by the sword he didnt know that Sasuke can swap with objects like that .he also didnt know that Sasuke can warp him at his chidori which means, when Naruto and Sasuke striked their Chidori and Rasengan at each other ,he didnt know that he would be warped between them .
