Possibly the earliest evidence that upgraded sharingan = rinnegan

[Floydical]

I was reading old chapters and realized that there is a direct, irrefutable reference to the sharingan evolving into the rinnegan in chapter 166:

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Without a doubt, that line describes the Rinnegan exactly, minus everything else the eye is capable of. You can argue that the next line about 'encountering the techniques' means he's referring to copying them.... but how could Nagato have mastered every element if Jiraya didn't teach him the hand signs of the jutsu? Basically, Nagato had to have knowledge of the jutsu before mastering it, having the Rinnegan simply didn't miraculously give him knowledge of all techniques. Basically, Nagato didn't physically copy all his jutsu, he simply was able to master them since he had the Rinnegan. For instance, Kakashi might have used water dragon missile, but he can't use it any time he wants to right? That's because he was only able to copy the hand signs and duplicate the result based on the environment. The Rinnegan, on the other hand, allows the user to physically master techniques such as that and use them as if its their natural affinity.

So while some of what Oro stated applies to the sharingan, that first aspect of his statement applies solely to the Rinngan, without a doubt. Obviously this power is limited to the 5 elements, and has no bearing on Kekkei Genkai or Kekkei Totta. But from this chapter, I can see that Kishi's original intention for the final form of the sharingan was not only to allow coping of jutsu, but to allow the straight up ability to learn and master any jutsu out there. So in a way, this makes me believe even more-so that the Rinnegan is designed to be the upgrade of the Sharingan and makes me realize how early he implemented it into his story, even if he didn't have the final design figured out. Not to mention, we learned a while later that Oro experimented with Senju DNA, proving he realized it was needed to make that further jump.

Anyway, that ended up being pretty long, but I wanted to show you guys a manga page that I thought was amazing and caused me to think differently about it after recent chapters. Thoughts, reactions, flaming?

 

[King Of Sharingan]

I just dnt see that being possible

 

[~Puppet Master~]

I disagree, he's referring to the Sharingan.

 

[shanee]

so oro really wanted the sharingan just so he can awaken the rinnegan just so he can master every jutsu? now its all coming together. all he needs is senju dna.

 

[shofneb]

Hmm very interesting. When talks about heritage I believe he is not only referring to the Uchiha clan but to the Sage himself (who actually did master every jutsu). But it's not just a simple upgrade, you need the "body" of the senju. I.E. a crap ton of Senju cells.

 

[Floydical]

I disagree, he's referring to the Sharingan.

I completely disagree. It directly states, "A talent that enables the user to use and master EVERY TECHNIQUE IN THE WORLD." Imo, this is absolutely undeniable truth that he is referring to the fully upgraded sharingan, the Rinnegan.

 

[Champ]

Orochimaru is sayin Sasuke is the heir to the Uchiha clan, and his heritage is the Rikudo Sennin since the Uchiha's are his descendants, but they need both Senju/Uchiha to awaken the Rinnegan

 

[shinobu sensui]

This is obvious

 

[Clinton46666]

U have a point but does he have a senju dna .... And i think he was crazy about sharingan

 

[Floydical]

so oro really wanted the sharingan just so he can awaken the rinnegan just so he can master every jutsu? now its all coming together. all he needs is senju dna.

Exactly, it was his shortcut to mastering all jutsu.

This is obvious

But not back then, and I just found it surprising that Kishi foreshadowed this so well so long ago, although that is certainly his style.

 

[Sentinel]

it might be a subtle hint to the rinegan, if you think of who's talking here.
orochimaru has been known to hunt the sharingan, it was his obsession, first itachi then sasuke. he was looking to steal their body's, including the eye, this would be the uchiha part he needs.
he was also known to have already gathered and experimented on hashirama's cells, yamato is proof of this. his experiments were not highly successful yet but he seemed to know a lot about it, and if he would have captured yamato and be able to experiment some more he might have been able to learn how to add senju cells to his body.

those would be the 2 ingredients for the rinegan.
he had also been in akatsuki so he knew about pain (probably not the details) but he knew of the eye and it's power
and we know that having the rinegan unlocks all nature transformations, it's just a mater of mastering them from that point on. this would be required for his goal of mastering all jutsu.

but all of this is unknown to us so it's cleaverly hidden in a reference to the sharingan

edit: I however don't see oro say anything that would indicate that the sharingan upgrades to the rinegan. remember, orochimaru and kabuto were not sure about that, it was their hypothesis but they had no actual proof. and oro doesn't seem like the kind of guy that sais things he is not sure of

 

[Rasnall]

Well interesting thought. But remember..Kishi know's the entire story line, so any references made in the past that was relevent then...would only be relevent then. It makes no sense for a writer to say something in one line over 3 yeasr earlier...to not even reference it in the now to show it is even relevent.


-__- He is talking about the Sharingan ^_^

 

[AlphaSeed]

eeeh you have a good point and all but i think he was talking about the sharingan and going off of kakashi's use of it when he bacame famous "copy ninja kakashi", which for some reason tho has fallen from the series, because just think if kakashi copies what he just saw in the late mangas rofl xD

i tend to belive when you have the rinne, you ARE the justu lol, no copying needed

 

[NarutoFactoid]

I was reading old chapters and realized that there is a direct, irrefutable reference to the sharingan evolving into the rinnegan in chapter 166:

You must be registered for see images

Without a doubt, that line describes the Rinnegan exactly, minus everything else the eye is capable of. You can argue that the next line about 'encountering the techniques' means he's referring to copying them.... but how could Nagato have mastered every element if Jiraya didn't teach him the hand signs of the jutsu? Basically, Nagato had to have knowledge of the jutsu before mastering it, having the Rinnegan simply didn't miraculously give him knowledge of all techniques. Basically, Nagato didn't physically copy all his jutsu, he simply was able to master them since he had the Rinnegan. For instance, Kakashi might have used water dragon missile, but he can't use it any time he wants to right? That's because he was only able to copy the hand signs and duplicate the result based on the environment. The Rinnegan, on the other hand, allows the user to physically master techniques such as that and use them as if its their natural affinity.

So while some of what Oro stated applies to the sharingan, that first aspect of his statement applies solely to the Rinngan, without a doubt. Obviously this power is limited to the 5 elements, and has no bearing on Kekkei Genkai or Kekkei Totta. But from this chapter, I can see that Kishi's original intention for the final form of the sharingan was not only to allow coping of jutsu, but to allow the straight up ability to learn and master any jutsu out there. So in a way, this makes me believe even more-so that the Rinnegan is designed to be the upgrade of the Sharingan and makes me realize how early he implemented it into his story, even if he didn't have the final design figured out. Not to mention, we learned a while later that Oro experimented with Senju DNA, proving he realized it was needed to make that further jump.

Anyway, that ended up being pretty long, but I wanted to show you guys a manga page that I thought was amazing and caused me to think differently about it after recent chapters. Thoughts, reactions, flaming?

kakashi is the copy ninja because of the sharingan. orochimaru wants the sharingan because of its function in this area.

"For instance, Kakashi might have used water dragon missile, but he can't use it any time he wants to right?" WRONG. He can use it any time he wants.

 

[Floydical]

it might be a subtle hint to the rinegan, if you think of who's talking here.
orochimaru has been known to hunt the sharingan, it was his obsession, first itachi then sasuke. he was looking to steal their body's, including the eye, this would be the uchiha part he needs.
he was also known to have already gathered and experimented on hashirama's cells, yamato is proof of this. his experiments were not highly successful yet but he seemed to know a lot about it, and if he would have captured yamato and be able to experiment some more he might have been able to learn how to add senju cells to his body.

those would be the 2 ingredients for the rinegan.
he had also been in akatsuki so he knew about pain (probably not the details) but he knew of the eye and it's power
and we know that having the rinegan unlocks all nature transformations, it's just a mater of mastering them from that point on. this would be required for his goal of mastering all jutsu.

but all of this is unknown to us so it's cleaverly hidden in a reference to the sharingan

edit: I however don't see oro say anything that would indicate that the sharingan upgrades to the rinegan. remember, orochimaru and kabuto were not sure about that, it was their hypothesis but they had no actual proof. and oro doesn't seem like the kind of guy that sais things he is not sure of

It was a hypothesis of theirs which means they had their own evidence it was true, but could not confirm it. Keep in mind, Oro was experimenting for decades, so I doubt he had no knowledge of the Rinnegan in part one. I think since it was clear he knew about it in part 2, he also knew about it in part one, considering his age and level of intelligence.

Well interesting thought. But remember..Kishi know's the entire story line, so any references made in the past that was relevent then...would only be relevent then. It makes no sense for a writer to say something in one line over 3 yeasr earlier...to not even reference it in the now to show it is even relevent.


-__- He is talking about the Sharingan ^_^

Kishi might still bring it back up, Oro's focus has not been re-established yet in the manga, we are waiting for that.

As to Kishi knowing the storyline, that is a direct reason for him to foreshadow events like that. Since he does know the entire storyline, it would benefit the story for him to put ques like this into the story to improve its overall quality. When we first read something like this, with limited knowledge, we might not know what he's talking about and may question if its true or not, but than looking back at it later, we may realize the author was simply keeping one fact from our view.

eeeh you have a good point and all but i think he was talking about the sharingan and going off of kakashi's use of it when he bacame famous "copy ninja kakashi", which for some reason tho has fallen from the series, because just think if kakashi copies what he just saw in the late mangas rofl xD

i tend to belive when you have the rinne, you ARE the justu lol, no copying needed

Yes, if you have the Rinnegan, no copying is needed, but you still have to master it. You simply have the ability to master any jutsu. Yes but Kakashi CANNOT copy any jutsu, he can only copy jutsu that he can use, ie from his 3 elements.

kakashi is the copy ninja because of the sharingan. orochimaru wants the sharingan because of its function in this area.

"For instance, Kakashi might have used water dragon missile, but he can't use it any time he wants to right?" WRONG. He can use it any time he wants.

Okay, I was waiting for someone to reference this quote. I was unsure on this issue because we do not regularly see Kakashi use jutsu that he has copied, from what I've noticed. So basically Kakashi can copy any jutsu with his sharigan that is among his available elements, correct? Therefore, Kakashi may have the ability to copy MANY jutsu, but is not able to copy ALL jutsu, correct?

I think the fact that Oro directly referenced ALL justu implies it is something greater than sharingan, for him a superior form to the sharingan that we know now is the Rinnegan.

 

[JCW]

i think your pulling out something that wasnt origninally there

 

[MySusanooIsPurple]

i cant see it being happening

 

[Simple Math]

hmm.. if anyone are being able to notice this the first time reading this chapter, then you must be a master analyser
its you have to figure it out yourself somehow

 

[Floydical]

hmm.. if anyone are being able to notice this the first time reading this chapter, then you must be a master analyser
its you have to figure it out yourself somehow

Well I think that anyone reading this chapter for the first time might find it a little strange. The fact is, the sharingan can't give a person access to every jutsu in the world, thats a fact. So someone who only knew about the sharingan might find it a little strange, but they would have no reason to believe that there was a level beyond sharingan that could allow for that. Basically, even if the statement is questionable to someone with limited knowledge, you would never be able to understand its true meaning without knowing what we know now.

 

[TurrinB]

This could be true, but than again Orochimaru could have just been talking about the Sharingan's copy ability.