Poll: Poll: Who produced the stronger descendants?
- Thread starter Melanin
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The Demon Hawk
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@bold Wrong! Tsunade has nothing to do with the responsibility of the medical branch of the entire shinobi world. She may be quite well known among the shinobis, and also one of the best medical ninjas, but giving her credit for being responsible for the entire shinobi medical system just shows how biased you are.
Plus, whatever you said about the Senjus/Uzumakis, I can say about the Uchihas because influence doesn't necessarily have to positive, and Uchihas have had a significant impact on the world, be it positive or negative.
Uchihas possess the stronger bloodline, not Senjus...
And clear this f***ed up misconception about Uchihas not being able to match the Senjus without their power. Senjus (Ashura's descendants) are generally stronger than Uchihas (Indra's descendants) because many of the Uchihas are unable to activate the Sharingan thus not permitting them to take complete advantage of their stronger bloodline, whereas there is no hindrance for the Senjus to progress with their powers. But when it comes to top end shinobis belonging to both clans who can activate the full potential of their respective clans i.e. Indra's and Ashura's reincarnations, it is evident that Indra has produced a stronger bloodline because his reincarnations are stronger. Why? See my next reply...
This is going to be a little long, but cope with it to understand.
If you've even casually but truly observed and analysed the fight between Madara and Hashirama, you'd have known the reason behind Madara being stronger than Hashirama. Instead you and many other people have just relied on the results of their final battle and past combats to draw conclusions on who is stronger.
Let's take this from the beginning i.e. their childhood. Madara said that Hashirama was stronger than him.
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But the reason for saying that can't be determined. He did previously boast (was close to) about having the Sharingan in front of Hashirama. But maybe he couldn't activate it in front of him since he had to keep it a secret. So not being able to use the Sharingan was a drawback for Madara.
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But even if he activated the Sharingan on spot as his family acclaimed, that was still a benefit for Hashirama because it was all before he had awakened the Sharingan. After the activation of 1 tomoed Sharingan, he leveled up or was probably stronger.
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The thing is you're only considering the time periods in which Madara was temporarily weaker since they both progressed alternately and Madara lagged in receiving power upgrades compared to Hashirama. But he did get power ups up to the mark later on. He just caught up late, but came on the same position or maybe higher, which just wasn't shown during their childhood.
But that was earlier. Besides, Hashirama and Madara weren't exactly like Naruto and Sasuke or Ashura and Indra respectively. So basing who's stronger on their childhood is futile. To determine how Madara was stronger than Hashirama, let's refer to their final fight.
Before that, let's be clear that Madara's use of Kyuubi was completely fair as controlling it is something he is capable of doing i.e. it's his EMS power. The Nine Tails is Madara's summon, just like any other summon. Fair and square. Let's move on.
Firstly, Madara wasn't even utilizing the full power of the Nine Tails since it was a new summon and he wasn't so specialized in controlling it (Ashura's reincarnations have always been lucky during their battle that Indra's reincarnations always have some newly obtained powers they don't have complete command over initially like Madara's Kyuubi and Sasuke's Rinnegan. The power can go on strengthening later on). If he'd got complete control over it, Hashirama would have been incinerated. But since the plot didn't allow Hashirama to be defeated (going realistically), therefore Madara wasn't able to control the Nine Tails properly during his battle against Hashirama. Even without using the Nine Tails to its full potential, Madara was still considerably stronger than Hashirama. And even after Hashirama put the Nine Tails to sleep, Madara was still fighting on par with Hashirama despite losing a massive chunk of his power. That's just how powerful he is...
Now, let's analyse their fight subsequently. We'll draw conclusions later.
He was able to bind the Nine Tails with the wooden dragon... just temporarily, because it wasn't sufficient to restrain it completely despite Madara's loose control over the Nine Tails.
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The versatility of his Wood Style jutsu allowed him to abstain the tailed beast bomb from exploding which nullified its mighty blast force. He can hold the tailed beast bomb with him wooden golem and fire it back at Madara. Madara did however take that explosion.
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Hashirama could predict the movement of Susanoo's sword as it wasn't quite as swift as Wood Style, and then he blocked it using quickly emerging gigantic wooden arms pulling out of the ground. Even that wasn't enough to immobilize the powerful sword attack. It only deviated the attack slicing the nearby mountains.
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Hashirama required 5 MASSIVE barriers just to change the trajectory of Susanoo sword covered with a tailed beast bomb. That's how enormously powerful attacks Madara is capable of producing.
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It took several hundred gigantic punches of Hashirama's 1000 Armed Buddha to penetrate through the defense of Madara's Susanoo, whereas Madara severed the main armament of the Buddha with a couple of magatamas.
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Adding to the versatility of Wood Style is it's ability to absorb chakra, which along with a seal, allowed Hashirama to put the Nine Tails to sleep. And that was a significant achievement and its lucky for him that he got a chance to do that. Otherwise, Kurama's mighty brute force and ultra destructive tailed beasts bombs in addition to huge amounts of chakra could be very overpowering for Hashirama despite Madara's weak control. The reason why I mention Madara's weak control is because it was the only reason Hashirama could outperform Kurama at times and only reason he was able to put it to sleep.
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Let's analyse the final moments of the battle. Madara took everyone of Hashirama's blows but Hashirama evaded nearly all of Madara's attack, even then both of them ended up just as exhausted and injured. Hashirama was a skilled medical ninja (self healer) as well. Even after that, Hashirama lacked the courage to attack Madara face to face. He waited for Madara's sharingan to deactivate and attacked from behind like a coward because he knew very well Madara was stronger and that he couldn't defeat him with a direct attack, so the only way of killing him was by tricking him into losing his guard and then attacking him.
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BTW, the purpose of the last fight for Madara was only to obtain Hashirama's cells. So could have deceived Hashirama into thinking that he had died when he really was alive progressing with his plans undercover.
The point in the above entire illustrated story? Just how powerful Madara is...
There is a reason Tobirama feared Madara so much despite knowing that Hashirama had already defeated him. It was because of his immense power. Instead of comforting Sasuke and the others that Hashirama had already dominated him and could do it again, he acquainted them of Madara's power. Because he knew Hashirama was lucky to have survived against an opponent like Madara.
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"Something greater than what the Senju know"... Just a little glimpse of Madara's extraordinary power.
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Why did Tobirama think that? The conclusion...
Hashirama's tendency of victory against Madara mostly relies on the usefulness and efficiency of his techniques, not raw power. His jutsus are powerful, agile, versatile, extremely functional and possess strong defense which is probably the reason he could even stand a chance against Madara's ultra powerful jutsus, though not as effective against Hashirama just because. Hashirama knew very well that he can't bear the overwhelming power of Madara's jutsus and he also was well aware that Madara is way stronger than he is. But the advantage he has is that he can immediately block those jutsus, deviate them in some way or somehow deactivate Madara's power. Because one strike of those jutsus could be an end for Hashirama. And Hashirama's jutsus aren't AS powerful to do any considerable damage to Madara's defense. The only major thing he did was direct 1000 HUMONGOUS arms on Madara's Susanoo that were way bigger than the Susanoo and that ONLY destroyed the Susanoo. Madara was completely unscratched. The special thing about mentioning this is that Madara took the complete brute force of that jutsu unlike Hashirama.
Only a slight mistake in movements or timing could have proved fatal for Hashirama. That's all Madara needed to kill Hashirama. Luckily though, Hashirama didn't provide him with any such chance.
I'm not complaining or anything, neither am I fanboying Madara (if that so seems). I'm only trying to prove my point that Madara is stronger. Hashirama definitely won against Madara and probably would anytime despite Madara being more powerful, and his victory was rightly deserved. That's because winning or losing doesn't depend upon how much power you possess, it depends upon how you utilize that power even if you have little. Which is exactly what Hashirama was capable of doing...
Getting the Rinnegan is NOT part of Ashura's powers. The Rinnegan is the Sage's most unique power, and is acquired by obtaining the HIS chakra. One of the ways of obtaining the Sage's chakra is by combining Indra's and Ashura's chakra, which deludes you into thinking Rinnegan is a part of Ashura's powers. The other is by obtaining it directly. Does obtaining Sage's chakra directly have anything to do with Ashura?
Obtaining the Sage's chakra by either means will grant the Rinnegan (supposedly if you're an Uchiha or possess Sharingan/EMS maybe since only Sasuke was the one to activate it).
Exactly this ^^^
Agreed!
No, Ashura doesn't... even without rival-borrowed enhancements. Indra's descendants have more potential. Many of them weren't even able to awaken the Sharingan, which is why their stronger bloodline is concealed. Uchihas have the capability of awakening the MS, but many of them didn't, because of the rare occurrence of its condition of activation. And that's a state only Senju's top end shinobis like Hashirama and Tobirama can counter since Senjus don't have much potential in their bloodline. Even the cream of the crop Senjus rely on derived techniques like FTG as their primary strength (Tobirama) which is something the Uchihas can easily learn, and others on tailed beasts (Naruto). Senjus really don't have the true quality in their power except Hashirama and supposedly Ashura. Well, I'll say Naruto as well only because he's the main character.
Hagoromo chose Ashura because of his superior ideals. Not more power.
Why not?
Wrong again!
Really? Mine is restored.
The real thing is Uchihas in their prime (after unlocking their complete power), e.g. Indra's transmigrants, are stronger than Ashura's counterparts, be it descendants or reincarnations... as well as stronger than any other ninja, with any power level, belonging to any clan. In other words, Uchihas who have unleashed their full potential are the strongest ninjas in Narutoverse, followed by the Senjus/Uzumakis who have reached to the height of their potential.
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