Plot Holes and Contradiction in "at 9..."

[Guilty as Sin]

This explanation would make perfect sense if you think about it. Imagine an Uchiha fighting some other random shinobi. If they couldn't win using skill, they would use Izanagi to deceive the opponent into "thinking" that they were killed, sometimes they may have even been killed multiple times before finally eliminating that opponent. After that, they could easily go back to their clan, slit another members throat in the middle of the night, and then have another pair of eyes to spam Izanagi with

It probably then got to the point where every Uchiha was sick of the ridiculous amount of people getting killed so that other members could spam Izanagi. So they developed Izanami at the cost of the users own eye so that other Uchiha would think twice before going after another member for their eyes

Good analysis Bigfoot.

Didn't read every response, but let me throw out my positions on a few things.

First thing first, I believe 100% that EMS does not save a person from loosing their sight when it comes to Izanagi/ Izanami. Let's look at this logically. A MS user eventually looses their light, correct? But it is not actually based on using their techniques, it simply happens eventually no matter what. Using techniques simply accelerates the process; the more often they use them, the faster their eyes degrade. The point is that MS is a cursed eye, different from any other. Here's the point though: EMS simply returns a 'cursed' eye back to normal. It takes an eye that will eventually go blind and turns it into a normal eye, one that will never go blind unnaturally.

So imo, EMS doesn't save someone from ALL blinding effects, it just reverses the built in blinding effect of MS and turns a MS eye into a normal one that can still use all those amazing techs. Get what I'm saying here? I believe 100% that the rule of sight loss applies to EMS users as well, when it comes to Izanagi/ Izanami.

Anyhow, the main thing that interested me about this topic, is the jutsu spamming. Many people mentioned 'stealing eyes' in this thread, but they didn't really specify. I do think the Uchiha were stealing eyes, but not for EMS purposes. I think they were stealing them for purposes similar to Danzou, where they simply had more than 2 eyes at their disposal for use, but not EMS.

But even considering this, the fact that Kishi implied use of Izanagi by one person 3 or more times is still a plot hole imo. The only possible REAL explanation I can offer is that this Izanami/ Izanagi loop is happening so fast that a person can actually use the core of the Izanagi technique multiple times before their time limit runs out. I mean even if the tech only lasts for a minute, two Uchiha could still battle back and forth against a looping process for that duration of time. I hope you get what I'm saying, but I think this multiple use of Izanagi could be achieved by one single eye if the action is occurring fast enough.

I'm not completely convinced that someone with EMS can go blind, it is called Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan for a reason. If that were true, it would mean that Sasuke would eventually go blind, especially since he tends to spam Amaterasu a lot, which I'm not inclined to believe just yet. Either Sasuke is being reckless and doesn't care if he goes blind, doesn't know that EMS will eventually fade out and will suffer the consequences, or EMS is actually eternal.

The question is, is Izanagi/Izanami an exception? Are those among the few or only techniques that cause blindness despite having EMS? Or are they spammable? As some have suggested, Izanagi being spammable is an adequate explanation as to why Izanami needed to be created as a system of checks and balances.

But I don't discount the theory that the Uchiha were taking other people's eyes, not necessarily to have a perfect EMS, but possibly to imitate Danzo like you suggested. My only question for that would be: How exactly are they using those extra eyes? Are they implanting them? How does the process of using another eye work?

Anyway, good posts from the both of you.

 

[Floydical]

Good analysis Bigfoot.



I'm not completely convinced that someone with EMS can go blind, it is called Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan for a reason. If that were true, it would mean that Sasuke would eventually go blind, especially since he tends to spam Amaterasu a lot, which I'm not inclined to believe just yet. Either Sasuke is being reckless and doesn't care if he goes blind, doesn't know that EMS will eventually fade out and will suffer the consequences, or EMS is actually eternal.

The question is, is Izanagi/Izanami an exception? Are those among the few or only techniques that cause blindness despite having EMS? Or are they spammable? As some have suggested, Izanagi being spammable is an adequate explanation as to why Izanami needed to be created as a system of checks and balances.

But I don't discount the theory that the Uchiha were taking other people's eyes, not necessarily to have a perfect EMS, but possibly to imitate Danzo like you suggested. My only question for that would be: How exactly are they using those extra eyes? Are they implanting them? How does the process of using another eye work?

Anyway, good posts from the both of you.

First off, I think you partially misunderstood my explanation of EMS. I was not suggesting, in any way, that Sasuke would go blind simply by spamming Amaterasu and Susanoo. With EMS, Sasuke and any other Uchiha for that matter, can use any or all of their MS techniques indefinitely without ever going blind. As the name implies, its an eternal version of an eye that is cursed to go blind. This is where my explanation came in, EMS turns a cursed eye with these techs into a normal eye with these techs. Its called 'eternal' because its overriding the slow sight decay. But that 'eternal' nature only applies to the slow decay that is natural in the MS. There is absolutely no evidence in the manga that suggests an EMS will stay active after using Izanagi or Izanami, only that it prevents the sight loss that is inherent in all MS users.

One of the biggest pieces of evidence that supported this was that going blind with MS did so in a normal sense of going blind. Meaning that once you were totally blind, your eye was still open all the time, but you couldn't see out of it. However, Izanagi, when used by Tobi and Danzou, completely closed off the eye after being used. So while EMS might stop normal blindness, it could not stop the eye from eternally closing imo. However, this evidence is no longer as powerful as it used to be considering the way Itachi went blind in this chapter was different from Tobi/ Danzou. But I still consider their eyes actually closing as opposed to glazing out to be a strong piece of evidence to keep in mind.

Imo, perhaps the only exception to going blind with Izanagi/ Izanami is the Rinnegan. Although rinnegan is an upgrade of the sharingan, its still a completely different doujutsu on many levels. So a Rinnegan user having infinite Izanagi/ Izanami spamming would be logical, considering the sage used more purified versions of those techniques time and again. But since EMS is still a huge step below Rinnegan, its illogical imo for it to be able to spam Izanagi/ Izanami.

When it does come down to it, this is still my opinion of course, but I feel that no evidence points to EMS users spamming Izanagi/ Izanami but instead, I feel the manga implies its 'eternal nature' only applies to the use of MS techs.

As for using multiple eyes, I feel that Uchiha would store them like Tobi/ Itachi did. Perhaps in small vials that they possibly could have even kept on their person. Then when they used one eye for Izanagi/ Izanami, they implanted the other in order to continue the process. I highly, highly doubt they had eyes in their arms or a 3rd eye on their foreheads or something crazy like that.

 

[6PathsofKami]

I suggest everyone go read the *********** translation, makes much more sense after you read their translation.

 

[Guilty as Sin]

First off, I think you partially misunderstood my explanation of EMS. I was not suggesting, in any way, that Sasuke would go blind simply by spamming Amaterasu and Susanoo. With EMS, Sasuke and any other Uchiha for that matter, can use any or all of their MS techniques indefinitely without ever going blind. As the name implies, its an eternal version of an eye that is cursed to go blind. This is where my explanation came in, EMS turns a cursed eye with these techs into a normal eye with these techs. Its called 'eternal' because its overriding the slow sight decay. But that 'eternal' nature only applies to the slow decay that is natural in the MS. There is absolutely no evidence in the manga that suggests an EMS will stay active after using Izanagi or Izanami, only that it prevents the sight loss that is inherent in all MS users.

One of the biggest pieces of evidence that supported this was that going blind with MS did so in a normal sense of going blind. Meaning that once you were totally blind, your eye was still open all the time, but you couldn't see out of it. However, Izanagi, when used by Tobi and Danzou, completely closed off the eye after being used. So while EMS might stop normal blindness, it could not stop the eye from eternally closing imo. However, this evidence is no longer as powerful as it used to be considering the way Itachi went blind in this chapter was different from Tobi/ Danzou. But I still consider their eyes actually closing as opposed to glazing out to be a strong piece of evidence to keep in mind.

Imo, perhaps the only exception to going blind with Izanagi/ Izanami is the Rinnegan. Although rinnegan is an upgrade of the sharingan, its still a completely different doujutsu on many levels. So a Rinnegan user having infinite Izanagi/ Izanami spamming would be logical, considering the sage used more purified versions of those techniques time and again. But since EMS is still a huge step below Rinnegan, its illogical imo for it to be able to spam Izanagi/ Izanami.

When it does come down to it, this is still my opinion of course, but I feel that no evidence points to EMS users spamming Izanagi/ Izanami but instead, I feel the manga implies its 'eternal nature' only applies to the use of MS techs.

As for using multiple eyes, I feel that Uchiha would store them like Tobi/ Itachi did. Perhaps in small vials that they possibly could have even kept on their person. Then when they used one eye for Izanagi/ Izanami, they implanted the other in order to continue the process. I highly, highly doubt they had eyes in their arms or a 3rd eye on their foreheads or something crazy like that.

Ah sorry about that boss, I'm rereading everything and you're right, I did misunderstand you.

Tell me if I got it right: Sharingan is a your standard ocular ability. Mangekyou Sharingan is your advanced ocular ability. However, this ocular ability comes with pros and cons. The pros are that you can use very powerful jutsu like amaterasu. The con is that your eye begins to slowly deteriorate, whether you use jutsu or not (jutsu accelerates the process as you said). That's why you called MS a curse. To remove the curse, or to return it to normal, you would need the EMS. That would remove the cons altogether and you'd have a eye that is perfect and never decays.

Moreover, you're saying that Izanagi/Izanami are not your standard MS/EMS techs. These techniques are not "natural" to the EMS. It's kind of like buying a television premium package with, I don't know, say Charter. You have your standard T.V. shows (that would be your E/MS techniques), but then you have something like HBO (your forbidden techniques). Sure, both are T.V. programs (sure, both are ocular jutsu), but even though you paid for a set of T.V programs, you still are going to have to pay HBO because they're separate things. You paid the price for activating EMS, but you didn't pay for the right to use every single ocular jutsu. With some, like Izanami/Izanagi, you're going to have to paid extra on top of what you have already paid for.

Hopefully I understood you correctly. I think you have a good theory and it makes for an adequate explanation about the Uchiha stealing other people's eyes. Although I do wonder about Tobi. Did he have EMS? It's clear that Madara does, but I think it's been established that Tobi is not Madara, although there are crazy theories out there. I also wasn't aware that Tobi lost his eyesight after using Izanagi against Konan. I'd appreciate it if you'd clear that one up for me, because I don't know.

 

[Floydical]

Ah sorry about that boss, I'm rereading everything and you're right, I did misunderstand you.

Tell me if I got it right: Sharingan is a your standard ocular ability. Mangekyou Sharingan is your advanced ocular ability. However, this ocular ability comes with pros and cons. The pros are that you can use very powerful jutsu like amaterasu. The con is that your eye begins to slowly deteriorate, whether you use jutsu or not (jutsu accelerates the process as you said). That's why you called MS a curse. To remove the curse, or to return it to normal, you would need the EMS. That would remove the cons altogether and you'd have a eye that is perfect and never decays.

Moreover, you're saying that Izanagi/Izanami are not your standard MS/EMS techs. These techniques are not "natural" to the EMS. It's kind of like buying a television premium package with, I don't know, say Charter. You have your standard T.V. shows (that would be your E/MS techniques), but then you have something like HBO (your forbidden techniques). Sure, both are T.V. programs (sure, both are ocular jutsu), but even though you paid for a set of T.V programs, you still are going to have to pay HBO because they're separate things. You paid the price for activating EMS, but you didn't pay for the right to use every single ocular jutsu. With some, like Izanami/Izanagi, you're going to have to paid extra on top of what you have already paid for.

Hopefully I understood you correctly. I think you have a good theory and it makes for an adequate explanation about the Uchiha stealing other people's eyes. Although I do wonder about Tobi. Did he have EMS? It's clear that Madara does, but I think it's been established that Tobi is not Madara, although there are crazy theories out there. I also wasn't aware that Tobi lost his eyesight after using Izanagi against Konan. I'd appreciate it if you'd clear that one up for me, because I don't know.

Yes, I think you've got what my position on the matter is now. To put it as simple as possible, EMS only reverses the MS's built in eye loss problem. It's essentially a MS that does not naturally degrade. BUT, the direct eye loss caused by Izanami or Izanagi use does not fall into this category, thus an EMS user should still go blind from either one.

In regard to Tobi, well it seems clear right now that he does not have EMS. If he did have EMS at some point, it seems clear that he lost it, most likely due to using Izanagi or giving his eyes to Nagato.

As to your question, Tobi definitely lost his sight in his left eye after using Izanagi:

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But as you can see, the eye physically closed as opposed to simply loosing its light. I mentioned this in my post above, but its an important thing to note, eye loss in the naruto universe can come in two forms: 1. Somewhat natural eye loss (if you will) where the eye glazes over, and 2. Very unnatural eye loss where the eye physically closes forever.

My point was that the eye loss due to a forever closing eye would certainly override the EMS's 'eternal nature'. Perhaps the only eye that can overcome this is the Rinnegan. But as I said before, the way Itachi went blind in the last chapter did kind of throw a wrench into this.

 

[Viewtiful]

Itachi explained everything actually. The Uchiha were already shown to have great arrogance, evidenced by the fact that they were planning a coup de 'etat against the then-most powerful of the Great Nations. The ability to defy death would have only increased that even more.

Itachi was almost completely forced into becoming a man of lies. Just because you did a terrible thing(s) in the past doesn't mean you cannot lecture other people into not doing it or something, so long as you are, sayy, enlightened or whatever.

In regards to the multiple uses, eye transplants from older clan members seems likely.

In regards to 'accepting his destiny', he's referring to the fact that Kabuto must accept the reality before him obviously: he cannot win in a repeating loop of events and the only way for him to accept that is to accept who he is, rather than trying to turn into someone else (Orochimaru).

 

[Baka Sennin]

from what i understood, izanagi users used to steal each other's eyes, like with the ms, and that's why they became arrogant. so izanami was created to teach them not to rely on power that isn't theirs apparently, much like kabuto is doing.

also, itachi didn't choose kabuto's destiny, he just forced him into accepting his true destiny, he HOLDS kabuto's destiny but kabuto is the one who decides it.

which basically means that izanami is very limited in scope.

 

[realobito1]

Three words : PLOT NO JUTSU !

I agree. Why do these jutsu need an explanation. cant they just be awesome. Why does kishi try to get all technical on this one. In the end it gives the jutsu purpose but completely ignores the price to pay for it. blind ninja(from using forbidden jutsu) who comes from a clan that relies on there eye jutsu more than anyother become arrogant. I would become depressed. This chapter makes no sense. However i dont get why you are scolding Itachi for scolding sasuke. He does not want sasuke to make any of his mistakes. He is the cause of all of sasuke problem but this was not his intentions. One thing I dont get is will sasuke give up on destroying konoha because if he does not how will this little meating between the Uchiha brother matter. personally I think sasuke should justkill the elders. I hate how they allways give tsunade a hard time. I am not a tsunade fan either but they just old people who need to shut the hell up

 

[Stark]

Too long to read. +rep for effort

 

[~Uzumaki~]

One can steal someone's eyes for extra Izanagi, I believe that's where the whole arrogance thing comes from, Izanami was probably a way for Uchiha's to beat Izanagi users and stop them from killing others to take their eyes but at the same time not killing them, instead making them accept themselves so that the population of the Uchiha won't be thinned. Izanagi is a big destiny changer if one can get multiple eyes for it. Imagine suicide bombings that aren't suicide, slaughtering batallions without injury, its like being an Edo Tensei which is fine if you're using your own eyes but they were probably taking the eyes of others to use it more.

 

[minatoisagod]

i stopped trying to understand where kishi is going with the uchiha clan after i heard they can get the rennigan