Plot Holes and Contradiction in "at 9..."

[MuDfAcToRy25]

lets not forget that once izanagi is activated it last for a set period of time so you can erase as many mistakes as you want in that period. Danzou erased many mistakes with a single eye and then when it ran out started using another eye. his lasted 60 seconds for each eye so thats more than enough time to erase many mistakes.

Tobi used izanagi for ten whole minutes to survive konan's attack. Then you just take a fallen comrades eyes that died in the battle and you can do it again. Or steal a friends eye like has been done before. THAT is the arrogance it brings about. Uchiha are killing friends and families over eyes b/c they want powerful jutsu. Thinking that if you have enough powerful jutsu you will be unstoppable and erase mistakes instead of learning from them to become a better you..... Anyone who doesn't have to suffer consequences from mistakes will eventually think themselves perfect and then they stop progressing and moving forward. They are essentially stopped in time like the izanami loop. Once you accept that you have to move forward you can escape from the loop and your own lack of growth.....

it all made perfect sense to me....

 

[ZeeshanAsNaruto]

I agree

 

[Albert Wesker]

Third reason is an extension of my first point, but if you look at the diagram in this chapter on page 5, it implies that Izanagi users were using Izanagi as many as 3 TIMES, THREE TIMES!!! When did Uchiha's start having 3 eyes?

Its not that they used izanagi three times, its that they changed reality three times while using izanagi once. plus you can just implant eyes if you really wanted to use it more. maybe thats why they didn't like it. Uchiha people started becoming arrogant and using it on other uchiha to kill them for their eyes, to be able to use izanagi more

 

[The Hidden Shinobi]

It would make sense if it was Inanami that was being used first and then Izanagi was made to counter it, maybe it was a translation error.

This would make sense according to the mythology but I guess kishi can do what he want's

 

[Uchihas with Big Guns]

Hella confusing to say the least, I kinda got a clue

 

[JWSoul]

For me, Itachi's explanation of Izanami and Izanagi seem to raise more questions then it answers.

Apparently, the purpose of Izanami was to "punish and save the users of Izanagi". (587, 3) <---(MLA because I'm used to it haha; although techinically it's not in proper MLA format)

Itachi claimed that those who used it would become arrogant and use it too much. He also said that one person using it wasn't a problem. It was only a problem when multiple people were using it and bickering over which reality to use...

Hold on though, didn't Tobi himself say that Izanagi granted complete control over one's own "personal reality", the "ultimate jutsu meant only to be used on oneself" (479, 4)

First of all, how can using Izanagi "multiple times" be a problem if the consequence is that you lose your eyesight. I'm guessing for an uchiha, losing one eye might be worth it, but both eyes? My guess is that unless something of grave importance threatened you, most Uchiha's were probably only willing to use it once in their lifetime, provided that they even could use it (Itachi doesn't explain how many were able to do so).

Second of all, how can Izanagi users argue which "reality" to choose from if it only affects the individual using it? Is it just me, or, When reading the manga, did you got the sense that the Uchiha's were using Izanagi to change other people's destiny or to determine "destiny" in the bigger picture instead just your own?

Third reason is an extension of my first point, but if you look at the diagram in this chapter on page 5, it implies that Izanagi users were using Izanagi as many as 3 TIMES, THREE TIMES!!! When did Uchiha's start having 3 eyes?

Fourth, this is more of a complaint, but how exactly did Izanagi make its users arrogant? How does changing your destiny for a minimal of one or two times (which doesn't even guarantee that you'll win or live anyway, look at Danzo) and on top of that losing your eyesight make you arrogant?! It baffles me.

I know this thread is starting to get long, but I want to discuss what for me is Itachi blatantly contradicting himself.

In page 9, Itachi says to Sasuke "don't say I'm perfect, first of all..."

This is interrupted by Kabuto's story, but is then picked up at page 14, where Itachi says to Sasuke:

"You should've acknowledged your real self. That way you wouldn't have had to tell lies like I did...and lies also make you unable to look at your own self"

That was a really heartwarming speech Itachi, but why in the world are you lecturing Sasuke about not lying to himself when you're the one telling him all the lies? You are the source of all of Sasuke's problems and internal conflicts. It's like telling a child who doesn't know any better that Santa exists, and then scolding him for lying to himself about the existence of Santa. Are you serious Itachi?

At first I though he was talking to Kabuto, but there's no doubt he's talking to Sasuke.

Last, I want to go over this contradiction in page 6:

"This techinique is used to teach people not to rely on jutsu..."

Wait, did you really just say (I'm putting it in other words, but retaining the essence) that this jutsu is used to teach people not to rely on jutsu??? What?!

That's like trying to teach someone a lesson about how bullying is bad by being a bully to them. It's hypocrisy. And what, are ninjas no longer expected to use jutsu anymore, or just jutsu that "change's destiny".

Actually, I won't go into this arena of philosophy as much as I'd like to. I've already spent enough time writing as it is, but I will say that it clear that Kishimoto doesn't understand the difference between fate and destiny, because there is a logical violation in the philosophical claims that Itachi is making.

I'll just say that either everything is determined and is fate, or nothing is and Itachi is full of bull when he says that "people ought to accept their own destiny". It's ironic that Kabuto's destiny is created and manipulated by Itachi; What he should've said was "Kabuto ought to accept my destiny, the one I determined for him. How is this different from Izanagi, philosophically speaking? It's not, both are used to control and determine desired results. Itachi's ramble is complete and utter hypocrisy.

Anyway, these are my initial thoughts. I'm willing to change my thoughts if you present some good evidence or arguments. It's possible I overlooked something or that I'm wrong, so let's have a calm and intellectual discussion about this chapter. What are your thoughts? Do you agree or disagree and why?

I am a little confused to why you fail to understand why someone effecting there own demise or the outcome of say a gamble to there favour does not directly affect people also involved in said act? Sorry this whole moan feels a little stupid am i missing something here? If you were to stab me during a fight and i reversed that effect the outcome would directly effect you!? Basically i direct my post at your second point.... I really fail to see your logic and why you cant grasp the concept. Yet you have people agreeing with you from the 3 or 4 other posts i read HUH ?

 

[Guilty as Sin]

lets not forget that once izanagi is activated it last for a set period of time so you can erase as many mistakes as you want in that period. Danzou erased many mistakes with a single eye and then when it ran out started using another eye. his lasted 60 seconds for each eye so thats more than enough time to erase many mistakes.

Tobi used izanagi for ten whole minutes to survive konan's attack. Then you just take a fallen comrades eyes that died in the battle and you can do it again. Or steal a friends eye like has been done before. THAT is the arrogance it brings about. Uchiha are killing friends and families over eyes b/c they want powerful jutsu. Thinking that if you have enough powerful jutsu you will be unstoppable and erase mistakes instead of learning from them to become a better you..... Anyone who doesn't have to suffer consequences from mistakes will eventually think themselves perfect and then they stop progressing and moving forward. They are essentially stopped in time like the izanami loop. Once you accept that you have to move forward you can escape from the loop and your own lack of growth.....

it all made perfect sense to me....

Its not that they used izanagi three times, its that they changed reality three times while using izanagi once. plus you can just implant eyes if you really wanted to use it more. maybe thats why they didn't like it. Uchiha people started becoming arrogant and using it on other uchiha to kill them for their eyes, to be able to use izanagi more

I didn't realize that Izanagi was based upon time. i always thought that when Danzo activated it, he could only keep up each eye for a minute, but actually using it would shut his eye. Anyway, thanks for the correction, and you put it very nicely mudfactory.

 

[Guilty as Sin]

I am a little confused to why you fail to understand why someone effecting there own demise or the outcome of say a gamble to there favour does not directly affect people also involved in said act? Sorry this whole moan feels a little stupid am i missing something here? If you were to stab me during a fight and i reversed that effect the outcome would directly effect you!? Basically i direct my post at your second point.... I really fail to see your logic and why you cant grasp the concept. Yet you have people agreeing with you from the 3 or 4 other posts i read HUH ?

I see what you're saying. Let me clear up and reword what I said and we'll go from there.

I think it's safe to say that Izanagi is a "rewrite", or so to speak. It a response to reality and a dissatisfaction of it, met with the determination and power to change what is happening.

Moreover, Izanagi is, for the most part, used defensively. We see that with Tobi surviving Konan's barrage and Danzo constantly "resurrecting" himself.

To further support my point, I would like to appeal to page 2 of Manga Chapter 479, which states "The user can take disadvantages like wounds or even death and turn them nothing more into a dream".

In light of that, my original question was how the Uchiha's can have an argument about how to change a "reality" that hasn't happened yet--a reality that they have not yet encountered?

This is why I said that it seems to me that they were changing people's destinies, as opposed to simply changing their own. When reading it, I got the sense that they were coming up with plans on what reality they wanted: they were fabricating a reality: In other words, they weren't rewriting, they were simply writing or creating.

But that's not what Izanagi does. That's why I think there is an inconsistency. You can't create a destiny with Izanagi perse, you can only change or rewrite it.

But I understand your criticism. If you change your destiny, that affects the other party right? If you stab me and were supposed to kill me and I come out alive and end up killing you, you have obviously been affected by my changing my destiny. I agree with you on that point.

There's a subtle but significant nuance between directly changing your own destiny and directly changing someone else's. It's kind of like playing a video game. You reach a checkpoint, you die, and you try again. You go back to your checkpoint and do things differently: this would be analogous to changing your destiny. Changing another person's destiny would be analogous to, say, changing the difficulty to easy. You haven't done anything to yourself, but you have changed the opponents behavior.

I hope that clears up, all I'm saying is that Itachi seems to be describing izanagi differently than what we've heard before, that's all. The rest just boils down to semantics.

 

[AlphaSeed]

you are a very well witted human ! i was confused about this chapter also but was so spun around by it i said forget it whatever lol ....i enjoyed this read tho, and then it dawned on me that we may have to go to a better translation source ...as far as your point about the diagram that is bottom line caught kishi in troll mode lol ...i to cant figure out how the hell 3 inazagi is possible and if it can be just spammed its become gay lol ++rep

 

[Sarutobi Sasuke]

+rep

Yep, Kishi must have been on drugs when he put together this chapter.

Itachi gives an almost completely different view of what Izanagi entails compared to what we've learned from Tobi and Danzo's battle. I'm gonna scrutinize the exact words Itachi used based on what you pointed out so I can wrap my head around this sht.

Itachi: However...the risk that its use implied was much worse than just losing one's eyesight.​

Risk? Is loosing one's eyesight a risk? I thought it was guaranteed.

Its users became arrogant and used it too much for themselves​

Too much for themselves? Its not that they used it too much. Its that they used it too much for themselves. You can only use Izanagi for yourself anyway. So hows that a problem?

If only one person is able to use it's not a problem.
But more than one person was, Thus they ended up fighting over which results to use.​

Izanagi's results only affects the user anyway. There's no reason at all to be fighting about which results to use. Use what ever freaking result you want cause it wont affect anyone else's results anyway.

Its either one of two things:

• Itachi's lying about what Izanagi is.
• Or Tobi doesn't know what Izanagi is and Danzo was using a different Izanagi.

Itachi's version of Izanagi gives one the impression that Izanagi can be used with only a probability of loosing one's sight and that Izanagi can be used to affect more than just one's own destiny.

 

[AlphaSeed]

lets not forget that once izanagi is activated it last for a set period of time so you can erase as many mistakes as you want in that period. Danzou erased many mistakes with a single eye and then when it ran out started using another eye. his lasted 60 seconds for each eye so thats more than enough time to erase many mistakes.

Tobi used izanagi for ten whole minutes to survive konan's attack. Then you just take a fallen comrades eyes that died in the battle and you can do it again. Or steal a friends eye like has been done before. THAT is the arrogance it brings about. Uchiha are killing friends and families over eyes b/c they want powerful jutsu. Thinking that if you have enough powerful jutsu you will be unstoppable and erase mistakes instead of learning from them to become a better you..... Anyone who doesn't have to suffer consequences from mistakes will eventually think themselves perfect and then they stop progressing and moving forward. They are essentially stopped in time like the izanami loop. Once you accept that you have to move forward you can escape from the loop and your own lack of growth.....

it all made perfect sense to me....

lol thanks, that did help !

 

[6PathsofKami]

Im just going to pretend this chapter was a fan fiction instead of an actual chapter by kishi. I hope the manga doesnt continue like the past few chapters, it doesnt seem like its kishi whos doing them.

 

[HamzaVeli]

Madara Uchiha will explain it all , dont worry , but + rep for the effort for making this in great Detail.

Ill rank this thread 8/10 and leave room for improvement aswell.

Thank you.

:scorps:

I completely agree with that u said my man - - uchiha madara still has a role - - and his role will explain what itachi uchiha is contradicting

 

[Floydical]

Didn't read every response, but let me throw out my positions on a few things.

First thing first, I believe 100% that EMS does not save a person from loosing their sight when it comes to Izanagi/ Izanami. Let's look at this logically. A MS user eventually looses their light, correct? But it is not actually based on using their techniques, it simply happens eventually no matter what. Using techniques simply accelerates the process; the more often they use them, the faster their eyes degrade. The point is that MS is a cursed eye, different from any other. Here's the point though: EMS simply returns a 'cursed' eye back to normal. It takes an eye that will eventually go blind and turns it into a normal eye, one that will never go blind unnaturally.

So imo, EMS doesn't save someone from ALL blinding effects, it just reverses the built in blinding effect of MS and turns a MS eye into a normal one that can still use all those amazing techs. Get what I'm saying here? I believe 100% that the rule of sight loss applies to EMS users as well, when it comes to Izanagi/ Izanami.

Anyhow, the main thing that interested me about this topic, is the jutsu spamming. Many people mentioned 'stealing eyes' in this thread, but they didn't really specify. I do think the Uchiha were stealing eyes, but not for EMS purposes. I think they were stealing them for purposes similar to Danzou, where they simply had more than 2 eyes at their disposal for use, but not EMS.

But even considering this, the fact that Kishi implied use of Izanagi by one person 3 or more times is still a plot hole imo. The only possible REAL explanation I can offer is that this Izanami/ Izanagi loop is happening so fast that a person can actually use the core of the Izanagi technique multiple times before their time limit runs out. I mean even if the tech only lasts for a minute, two Uchiha could still battle back and forth against a looping process for that duration of time. I hope you get what I'm saying, but I think this multiple use of Izanagi could be achieved by one single eye if the action is occurring fast enough.

 

[soggysombrero]

For me, Itachi's explanation of Izanami and Izanagi seem to raise more questions then it answers.

Apparently, the purpose of Izanami was to "punish and save the users of Izanagi". (587, 3) <---(MLA because I'm used to it haha; although techinically it's not in proper MLA format)

Itachi claimed that those who used it would become arrogant and use it too much. He also said that one person using it wasn't a problem. It was only a problem when multiple people were using it and bickering over which reality to use...

Hold on though, didn't Tobi himself say that Izanagi granted complete control over one's own "personal reality", the "ultimate jutsu meant only to be used on oneself" (479, 4)

First of all, how can using Izanagi "multiple times" be a problem if the consequence is that you lose your eyesight. I'm guessing for an uchiha, losing one eye might be worth it, but both eyes? My guess is that unless something of grave importance threatened you, most Uchiha's were probably only willing to use it once in their lifetime, provided that they even could use it (Itachi doesn't explain how many were able to do so).

Second of all, how can Izanagi users argue which "reality" to choose from if it only affects the individual using it? Is it just me, or, When reading the manga, did you got the sense that the Uchiha's were using Izanagi to change other people's destiny or to determine "destiny" in the bigger picture instead just your own?

Third reason is an extension of my first point, but if you look at the diagram in this chapter on page 5, it implies that Izanagi users were using Izanagi as many as 3 TIMES, THREE TIMES!!! When did Uchiha's start having 3 eyes?

Fourth, this is more of a complaint, but how exactly did Izanagi make its users arrogant? How does changing your destiny for a minimal of one or two times (which doesn't even guarantee that you'll win or live anyway, look at Danzo) and on top of that losing your eyesight make you arrogant?! It baffles me.

I know this thread is starting to get long, but I want to discuss what for me is Itachi blatantly contradicting himself.

In page 9, Itachi says to Sasuke "don't say I'm perfect, first of all..."

This is interrupted by Kabuto's story, but is then picked up at page 14, where Itachi says to Sasuke:

"You should've acknowledged your real self. That way you wouldn't have had to tell lies like I did...and lies also make you unable to look at your own self"

That was a really heartwarming speech Itachi, but why in the world are you lecturing Sasuke about not lying to himself when you're the one telling him all the lies? You are the source of all of Sasuke's problems and internal conflicts. It's like telling a child who doesn't know any better that Santa exists, and then scolding him for lying to himself about the existence of Santa. Are you serious Itachi?

At first I though he was talking to Kabuto, but there's no doubt he's talking to Sasuke.

Last, I want to go over this contradiction in page 6:

"This techinique is used to teach people not to rely on jutsu..."

Wait, did you really just say (I'm putting it in other words, but retaining the essence) that this jutsu is used to teach people not to rely on jutsu??? What?!

That's like trying to teach someone a lesson about how bullying is bad by being a bully to them. It's hypocrisy. And what, are ninjas no longer expected to use jutsu anymore, or just jutsu that "change's destiny".

Actually, I won't go into this arena of philosophy as much as I'd like to. I've already spent enough time writing as it is, but I will say that it clear that Kishimoto doesn't understand the difference between fate and destiny, because there is a logical violation in the philosophical claims that Itachi is making.

I'll just say that either everything is determined and is fate, or nothing is and Itachi is full of bull when he says that "people ought to accept their own destiny". It's ironic that Kabuto's destiny is created and manipulated by Itachi; What he should've said was "Kabuto ought to accept my destiny, the one I determined for him. How is this different from Izanagi, philosophically speaking? It's not, both are used to control and determine desired results. Itachi's ramble is complete and utter hypocrisy.

Anyway, these are my initial thoughts. I'm willing to change my thoughts if you present some good evidence or arguments. It's possible I overlooked something or that I'm wrong, so let's have a calm and intellectual discussion about this chapter. What are your thoughts? Do you agree or disagree and why?

1. its not that one person was using it 3 times, but 3 people were using it

2. its not that their using izanagi on themselves affected other people, but that during war (when there is a large group of people using izanagi) a group of people each changing reality alll at once causes a bit of an issue

3. makes them arrogant by having them believe they are invincible, better than others. (the defenition of arrogant)

4. he wants sasuke, his younger brother, to be better than he is. That is all. He doesn't want sasuke to set itachi as perfect because sasuke would never surpass him. its like bruce lee says, setting limits for yourself only limits your potential

5. its a bit different, because the only way to escape from izanami is to ACTUALLY learn the lesson. lol, what are u an idiot??? its very clear it is the only way to escape

you could repeat the loop a million times and if you havent learned the lesson the loop will continue

 

[~MC117~]

I agree, it didn't make any sense to me

 

[UnclePimpzEX]

Don't forget that Tobi mentioned that you have to have both uchiha and senju DNA in order to use izanagi, if somehow earlier uchiha clan members were able to use it in the so called "important battle", then that's another contradiction kishi has created

 

[Bigfoot34501]

Anyhow, the main thing that interested me about this topic, is the jutsu spamming. Many people mentioned 'stealing eyes' in this thread, but they didn't really specify. I do think the Uchiha were stealing eyes, but not for EMS purposes. I think they were stealing them for purposes similar to Danzou, where they simply had more than 2 eyes at their disposal for use, but not EMS.

But even considering this, the fact that Kishi implied use of Izanagi by one person 3 or more times is still a plot hole imo. The only possible REAL explanation I can offer is that this Izanami/ Izanagi loop is happening so fast that a person can actually use the core of the Izanagi technique multiple times before their time limit runs out. I mean even if the tech only lasts for a minute, two Uchiha could still battle back and forth against a looping process for that duration of time. I hope you get what I'm saying, but I think this multiple use of Izanagi could be achieved by one single eye if the action is occurring fast enough.

This explanation would make perfect sense if you think about it. Imagine an Uchiha fighting some other random shinobi. If they couldn't win using skill, they would use Izanagi to deceive the opponent into "thinking" that they were killed, sometimes they may have even been killed multiple times before finally eliminating that opponent. After that, they could easily go back to their clan, slit another members throat in the middle of the night, and then have another pair of eyes to spam Izanagi with

It probably then got to the point where every Uchiha was sick of the ridiculous amount of people getting killed so that other members could spam Izanagi. So they developed Izanami at the cost of the users own eye so that other Uchiha would think twice before going after another member for their eyes

 

[Codex]

Didn't read every response, but let me throw out my positions on a few things.

First thing first, I believe 100% that EMS does not save a person from loosing their sight when it comes to Izanagi/ Izanami. Let's look at this logically. A MS user eventually looses their light, correct? But it is not actually based on using their techniques, it simply happens eventually no matter what. Using techniques simply accelerates the process; the more often they use them, the faster their eyes degrade. The point is that MS is a cursed eye, different from any other. Here's the point though: EMS simply returns a 'cursed' eye back to normal. It takes an eye that will eventually go blind and turns it into a normal eye, one that will never go blind unnaturally.

So imo, EMS doesn't save someone from ALL blinding effects, it just reverses the built in blinding effect of MS and turns a MS eye into a normal one that can still use all those amazing techs. Get what I'm saying here? I believe 100% that the rule of sight loss applies to EMS users as well, when it comes to Izanagi/ Izanami.

Anyhow, the main thing that interested me about this topic, is the jutsu spamming. Many people mentioned 'stealing eyes' in this thread, but they didn't really specify. I do think the Uchiha were stealing eyes, but not for EMS purposes. I think they were stealing them for purposes similar to Danzou, where they simply had more than 2 eyes at their disposal for use, but not EMS.

I completely agree with the part about EMS. If they were immune to the effects of Izanag/mi, that would be too much.

Now, as for stealing eyes, that makes a lot of sense to me. For one, whoever was the first person to acquire MS must have done so accidentally -- it was an unintended consequence of stealing someone's (close friend's) eyes. But what compelled them to steal the eyes in the first place? Izanagi, probably. I'm not aware of there being any limits as to who can use Izanagi; it seems any Uchiha who is willing to lose an eye can do it. So, you've got a bunch of people spamming Izanami, and a few of those people then decide to start stealing eyes. One guy goes so far as to steal his best friend's eyes, and bam!, he's rewarded with MS. Now people have another reason to start stealing eyes, and mass chaos ensues.

 

[Scarecrow James]

Awesome thread I was thinkin the same thing but was unable to put it in words.