[Discussion] Please Explain: Yin = Quality, Yang = Quantity... Why?

[Mr Hiru]

AlphaE20, I'm coming to understand where are you getting at.

First, I'd never recommend you to use the wikia as a source. Even thought I respect all their efforts to reunite knowledge, it is never something to be trust.

...Now, look at this. The Sage's sons gifts (Lifeforce and Powerful chakra) doesn't anything to do with Chakra reserves or Stamina:

Let me introduce you to a not very known field of Narutoverse... one that I was studying for a while but I couldn't translate so well until some days... something that even I couldn't explain so well, because it was not clearly stated in early days.

We are talking about (not joking) chakra reserves.

First we must as ourselves... how can a ninja do in order to execute taijutsu, ninjutsu or genjutsu?

The basic energy that a shinobi wields is known as stamina. Stamina is the energy a ninja holds in its body in order to do any physical movement. More precisely, stamina is spiritual and physical energy, not mixed.

Stamina amount is determined by the quantity of physical and spiritual energy this shinobi can hold in its body and mind. These energies determine the maximum amount of stamina inside the shinobi's body and mind, ergo, Stamina = Chakra Reserves before molding.

When the shinobi executes the process known as chakra molding (for instance, when Naruto does the Ram seal to focus), he transforms stamina in chakra. Chakra is used to execute Ninjutsu or Genjutsu, ergo... he mixes physical and spiritual energy in order to release chakra.

Many people wonders why Lee can't use ninjutsu or genjutsu... the answer relies in his inexpertice in chakra control... he can't mix spiritual and physical energy. But the reason of why he is alive and can do Taijutsu is really simple... he still has stamina. Shinobi doesn't need chakra to use Taijutsu, or more precisely, he doesn't need to do hand seals to create chakra.

In conclusion, Chakra is not directly the reason of why people in Narutoverse is alive. The reason behind people is alive is due their stamina. Ninja have the ability to transform this stamina in chakra, and for those who are kind of freaks with the whole thing about physical and spiritual energy... Chakra reserves doesn't have anything to do with lifeforce and powerful chakra. These concepts are totally independant.

So ...for a more graphic explanation, everyone is free to check the sources...

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So there is no big mistery... Naruto has the largest Stamina (chakra reserves).

Also, Sasuke is an Uchiha, so among the members of team 7, his is the most powerful chakra, but even with that he can't hold long battles as Naruto does, because Stamina and Powerful chakra are independant and unrelated concepts.

 

[ANiMUS]

AlphaE20, I'm coming to understand where are you getting at.

First, I'd never recommend you to use the wikia as a source. Even thought I respect all their efforts to reunite knowledge, it is never something to be trust.

...Now, look at this. The Sage's sons gifts (Lifeforce and Powerful chakra) doesn't anything to do with Chakra reserves or Stamina:



So there is no big mistery... Naruto has the largest Stamina (chakra reserves).

Also, Sasuke is an Uchiha, so among the members of team 7, his is the most powerful chakra, but even with that he can't hold long battles as Naruto does, because Stamina and Powerful chakra are independant and unrelated concepts.

Actually, the thought of stamina being the root of a ninja's chakra was countered when the shinjuu absorbed the shinobis' chakra and killed them. Yes, stamina= spirit e. and physical e., but what stamina comes from is life force. When you run out chakra and hit base, the only thing left is life force and the more life force you have, the more stamina, which means more spirit e. and physical e., which causes more chakra.
The only difference is when you run into life force you tap in to energy that can not be replenished and leads to death.

 

[Mr Hiru]

Actually, the thought of stamina being the root of a ninja's chakra was countered when the shinjuu absorbed the shinobis' chakra and killed them. Yes, stamina= spirit e. and physical e., but what stamina comes from is life force. When you run out chakra and hit base, the only thing left is life force and the more life force you have, the more stamina, which means more spirit e. and physical e., which causes more chakra.
The only difference is when you run into life force you tap in to energy that can not be replenished and leads to death.

Please provide scans for these statements, specially the red one... and please do, because in my previous post I provided the pages that defined stamina, something that didn't even mention the word life force.

About the Shinjuu, it's unclear... that argument is vague and I could easily counter it: I could tell that any ninja that mold chakra (transform spiritual and physical energy <a.k.a. stamina> into chakra) until its stamina runs out, he/she effectively die. What if the Shinjuu doesn't absorb chakra, but the separated energies? Remember that chakra isn't chakra until the spiritual and physical energies are mixed.

If that's the case, then I just rendered that argument as invalid.

Another way to counter that argument, even more simple: The Sage of Six Paths was the first human who revealed the concept of chakra. If no one could mold chakra before that, how people was alive before the Sage?

Contradiction.

...ergo, the Shinjuu absorbed Physical and Spiritual Energy, it didn't absorb chakra per se.

 

[Touken]

Yin & Yang are different in each concept. In terms of the Sage's sons, the younger son was gifted with a more powerful body with regards to strength (Yang). He also inherited a massive chakra pool. On the other hand, the elder son was gifted with the Sharingan and thus was gifted with powerful genjutsu, which is Yin. This explains why the Uchiha are extremely talented with genjutsu and my Yang point explains why the Senju have massive reserves and are physically strong and have strong chakra, examples being Hashirama & Tobirama destroying and shaking the room respectively in chapter 620 and Tobirama being able to crack a wall by simply pushing against it with his hand. Nothing to do with quantity vs. quality imo.

However, this explanation doesn't apply to all Yin & Yang concepts in Naruto.

 

[ANiMUS]

Please provide scans for these statements, specially the red one... and please do, because in my previous post I provided the pages that defined stamina, something that didn't even mention the word life force.

About the Shinjuu, it's unclear... that argument is vague and I could easily counter it: I could tell that any ninja that mold chakra (transform spiritual and physical energy <a.k.a. stamina> into chakra) until its stamina runs out, he/she effectively die. What if the Shinjuu doesn't absorb chakra, but the separated energies? Remember that chakra isn't chakra until the spiritual and physical energies are mixed.

If that's the case, then I just rendered that argument as invalid.

How is it unlikely that the shinjuu can absorb chakra even down to its rawest elements. Besides, this is easy to understand if you think of how the 8 gates work. A ninja's gates work to keep one from using energy vital for life. When you unlock your gates you increase your stamina by tapping into life energy. Each gate release increases your power further and further until you reach the last gate which utilizes all the user's life energy, but afterwards there user dies.

Shinobi can't normally tap in to life energy because of the eight gates, but the shinjuu can bypass these gates and drain you entirely whether chakra has been molded or not.
Sorry, I can't provide scans of the gates. My home internet is down and my phone's is slow and a pain to use

 

[Mr Hiru]

How is it unlikely that the shinjuu can absorb chakra even down to its rawest elements. Besides, this is easy to understand if you think of how the 8 gates work. A ninja's gates work to keep one from using energy vital for life. When you unlock your gates you increase your stamina by tapping into life energy. Each gate release increases your power further and further until you reach the last gate which utilizes all the user's life energy, but afterwards there user dies.

Shinobi can't normally tap in to life energy because of the eight gates, but the shinjuu can bypass these gates and drain you entirely whether chakra has been molded or not.
Sorry, I can't provide scans of the gates. My home internet is down and my phone's is slow and a pain to use

When you can provide scans, I'll read. Also, please read the update about the second way to find a flaw on that argument in my previous post.

Edit: I had to highlight the red line, AlphaE20. That's my point when I said the Shinjuu absorbed Spiritual and Physical Energy directly. That is not life energy, that is Spiritual + Physical Energy (Stamina), life force is not the same thing.

 

[ANiMUS]

Please provide scans for these statements, specially the red one... and please do, because in my previous post I provided the pages that defined stamina, something that didn't even mention the word life force.

About the Shinjuu, it's unclear... that argument is vague and I could easily counter it: I could tell that any ninja that mold chakra (transform spiritual and physical energy <a.k.a. stamina> into chakra) until its stamina runs out, he/she effectively die. What if the Shinjuu doesn't absorb chakra, but the separated energies? Remember that chakra isn't chakra until the spiritual and physical energies are mixed.

If that's the case, then I just rendered that argument as invalid.

Another way to counter that argument, even more simple: The Sage of Six Paths was the first human who revealed the concept of chakra. If no one could mold chakra before that, how people was alive before the Sage?

Contradiction.

...ergo, the Shinjuu absorbed Physical and Spiritual Energy, it didn't absorb chakra per se.

You are nitpicking, if you wish to disprove me you must use my theory. Chakra, stamina, life force; all are the same thing except chakra is conditioned to be used with jutsu as an alternative means. Chakra doesn't need to be molded in order to be stolen, whether preta path, the chakra absorbing dude from part 1, or Samahade. When one is completely drained of chakra by whatever technique the victim loses all stamina. This proves that whether molded or not stamina can be absorbed as if it were chakra and the shinjuu which has much greater absorption ability can bypass the gates and drain you right down to your life force.

The Sage only showed them how to convert their stamina into a useable form. (Chakra)

 

[Mr Hiru]

You are nitpicking, if you wish to disprove me you must use my theory. Chakra, stamina, life force; all are the same thing except chakra is conditioned to be used with jutsu as an alternative means. Chakra doesn't need to be molded in order to be stolen, whether preta path, the chakra absorbing dude from part 1, or Samahade. When one is completely drained of chakra by whatever technique the victim loses all stamina. This proves that whether molded or not stamina can be absorbed as if it were chakra and the shinjuu which has much greater absorption ability can bypass the gates and drain you right down to your life force.

The Sage only showed them how to convert their stamina into a useable form. (Chakra)

Green part: I've been questioning your theory... I USED your theory to do so. Moreover, the first thing I did in this topic was to answer the question you made, all was clear until that point. I answered that I knew about Yin, but that the thing about Yang doesn't exist in manga.

About the rest... you're seeing all of this too complicated.

Shinjuu absorbs Spiritual + Physical Energy and that's all... When the Shinjuu absorbs Spiritual and Physical Energy, it is absorbing Stamina (the source of chakra) and by transitivity, chakra itself. In consequence, the shinobi dies.

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Life force is an unnecessary component to the Shinjuu's paradox. I can also provide proof that both Lifeforce/Vitality and Imagination (Yin and Yang) are imprescindible components to determine chakra capacity.

The lifeless object created by the "Creation of All Things" needs a shape, doesn't it? Then if this technique can create a human being (for instance, the sons of the Sage, if they were created by this mean), then Yin power was the component in charge of determining how much cells would each body have, while the Yang power would just give life to each cell. So, by this perspective, Lifeforce/Vitality is not the only component that determines chakra capacity... The Imagination also determines chakra capacity, because without any imagination, there would be no body to give life to.

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...

Take this in account... Lifeforce alone can't determine chakra capacity. If this were the case, every shinobi with huge amount of chakra could awake trees just like when Naruto was training KCM, because Yang is Life, and Lifeforce is from the Yang branch. But guess what... the only one capable to do this is Naruto (with Kurama's Yang power), Hashirama (Descendant of the Younger Son of the Sage) and Madara (who helds Hashirama's cells). Kisame couldn't do anything alike, and he has tremendous chakra reserves.

PS: I'm sorry if I'm being a biotch to you in this topic about lifeforce. But if you're going to create a more developed theory, it would be a waste for someone so insightful as you to fall into a False Premise fallacy.

 

[Tera Path]

I wouldn't be surprised if you actually thought this.

As we have seen, Naruto has more Yang, than Yin.

Yin is mind/spirit.
Yang is body/life force.

Naruto has allot of Yang, so he has a strong life force and a large quantity of chakra.
Considering he has more chakra, means he can do more moves on larger scales and it takes longer for him to tire.

Sasuke has allot of Yin, it is stronger than his Yang.
The Yin in Sasuke is his mental chakra, his eye chakra, his imagination, expressed through his eyes.

As we have seen, as Naruto get's stronger, his Yang increases, and he gets more chakra.
As Sasuke gets stronger, his Yin increases, making his chakra stronger, darker and more potent.

I do not know what to say other than this.

EDIT: I realize there are like 40 other posts.
I feel stupid.

 

[FearxDeath]

Yin and Yang do not refer to Quality and Quantity, rather they refer to Body and Spirit.

Yin relates to the Spirit and the Mind.
Yang relates to the Body and Vitality/Life.

 

[Mr Hiru]

Yin and Yang do not refer to Quality and Quantity, rather they refer to Body and Spirit.

Yin relates to the Spirit and the Mind.
Yang relates to the Body and Vitality/Life.

This^. This is stated in chapter 510.

Sometimes I thought about Yin being the power of death while Yang is the power of life.