Philosophically, Naruto Uzumaki is in the wrong

[mikeeozua]

These Uchihas have the shittiest ideologies I have ever seen. Naruto may be wrong, but the ideas and thought processing abilities of these Uchihas stem form nothing but butthurt and frailty. Madara has almost no motivation to speak of, and Obito's entire concept is driven from his inability to accept reality.

Nobody in this manga is in the right. Every single character that has an influence on this world's outcome has some shortcoming. It seems Naruto is always the scapegoat for flawed thinking, which I find myself laughing at.

Actually Nagato's ideology was pretty mature. He accepted himself that small conflicts would break out but it would lead to a temporary haven.

 

[rollin]

madara and obito want to create a fake world where their friends who died would be in it
naruto and kakashi dont want to forget their real friends and by getting new friends that can help the void of the ones you lost

 

[Cosman]

Actually Nagato's ideology was pretty mature. He accepted himself that small conflicts would break out but it would lead to a temporary haven.

I was going to make a thread detailing Nagato's philosophy and why his idealism was actually a well integrated concept. Didn't know if you previously made one.

 

[Raekwon26]

Naruto and Obito are exactly the same. So ignorant, so naive, so stupid.

Madara on the other hand, just confuses the hell outta me, he seriously does.

 

[eryq]

Philosophically of this is correct. The manga is written by kishi based on resurrecting or continued philosophy of the Sage of Six Paths. The Sage of the Six Paths was a monk who appeared long ago in an age of endless war. He was the first to discover the truth of chakra, and with it he tried to lead the world to an era of peace instead of conflict. He travelled across the land, spreading his ideal and religion, the Shinobi Sect (忍宗, Ninshū), which eventually came to be known as ninjutsu. His great deeds and ultimate desire to bring peace to the war-torn world made him widely known as the Saviour of this World. Naruto has traveled the world spreading his ideal or Ninja way making people believe and find values in his beliefs. Like Naruto,the Sage never forced them to believe. Obito is going against the philosophy. It is better to teach people how to do something than kill them for not knowing how to already.

 

[Trea]

Naruto is naive, was very bratty when he was younger but is maturing and growing up now. He's mature enough to know that he doesn't have all of the answers which he told Nagato quite honestly. I don't think Naruto believes he will end all wars for good. But he is mature enough to realize that things have to change or the cycle will never stop. If he hadn't matured he would have just killed Nagato for having killed Juraiya and let the cycle of hatred between their villages continue.

The fact that he is willing to listen to people and to talk to them honestly is more mature than many of the Kages who seemed like they could start a war from just having to be in the same room before the alliance happened. Children don't usually envision their own deaths and most teenagers think they know better than their parents, so that is probably where his sometimes cocky attitude comes from. He is not the sharpest tack on the shelf but he is pretty good at understanding people's emotions. Power only accomplishes so much. After the fighting is done, talking, listening and compromise will be needed that is where Naruto's TNJ will come in handy.

I think Kishi is going to continue with his vision without considering what the real world is like. In the real world there probably will always be war. Compromise seems to have become a dirty word which means giving up or giving in instead of meeting half way. As long a people can't look past their religious differences or continue to fight over dwindling resources it won't stop unless the cost of war becomes so terrible that understanding and compromise seems reasonable again.

 

[veggetta13]

There is essentially no evidence that refutes Madara/Obito's claim that the world will not return to war. That the selfish desire to maintain peace leads to war, and that it's an endless cycle. Their cynicism in mankind and it's inability to change, and it's history of repeated violence and inability to understand each other is, frankly, well rooted in reality.

Naruto might be the good guy in the manga, but the real world doesn't work that way. In reality, he's a whiny, bratty, naive kid that gets by on cheap luck and friendship. The reality is that many unjust and unfair things that occur in the real world, and that war and hatred are inevitable. Regardless of the time or place, mankind is doomed to repeat this until the end of its time on Earth.

Of course, Naruto will win because this is manga and not the real world. But I'd like to see a nod on the part of the creator, that this is simply not reflective of the true nature of mankind.

It is defined as human, having hope. Either good or bad, all achievements earned by mankind have been focused on aiming at a better future. All dramas have got heroes and by nature heroes are requested to put their faith (life-though) on the line, willingly or not.

What I think you are expressing, is your demise towards accepting hope as yours, and that´s fine. Many people don´t believe (actively) in anything, however, proposing not believing or believing in nothing is yet seen as a terribly negative and unfeeding view.

I strongly dissagree with you on putting Kishi in charge of being responsible as reflective of the true nature of mankind..

Feeling down? ..speak with somebody.. how is a Japanese artist forced to hold the moral ground of anyone?.. please

 

[Sot6p]

I believe in the Infinite Tsukyomi they still have their free will and everything is perceived as real. If this is the case, is it truly taking away free will? What Obito is essentially creating is a paradise.

Maybe...
But how exactly are people going to share this illusion?
Will every single human be in a different world, alone?

By creating a satisfactory world, you'll need emotions. Love included.
What happens when you lose someone you love?
What happens when the guy INSIDE the illusion is the one disrupting peace?
Will it really work, even considering there will be corrupted people there?
What if the illusion got corrupted by the humans inside?
If you're alone in your world, what will happen when you die?
Obito is the one that rejected the death of Rin, remember? The very creator of the illusion is already freaking corrupted. What's to stop him from giving himself and Rin immortality?

Honestly, every single idea presented will be questionable.

 

[SasukeUchiha910]

OP: just earned so rep.

 

[Strata Uchiha]

There is essentially no evidence that refutes Madara/Obito's claim that the world will not return to war. That the selfish desire to maintain peace leads to war, and that it's an endless cycle. Their cynicism in mankind and it's inability to change, and it's history of repeated violence and inability to understand each other is, frankly, well rooted in reality.

Naruto might be the good guy in the manga, but the real world doesn't work that way. In reality, he's a whiny, bratty, naive kid that gets by on cheap luck and friendship. The reality is that many unjust and unfair things that occur in the real world, and that war and hatred are inevitable. Regardless of the time or place, mankind is doomed to repeat this until the end of its time on Earth.

Of course, Naruto will win because this is manga and not the real world. But I'd like to see a nod on the part of the creator, that this is simply not reflective of the true nature of mankind.

You couldn't be any more right.

Naruto may be able to maintain "momentary peace" as long as he's in his prime, but what happens when he turns into a wrinkly old man? Then what? Evil will once again rear it's ugly head.

 

[Jako98146]

But when you think about it, Obito started a war so he could live in a dream world and force everyone else into living in a dream world against their wills...

 

[xcoyote]

His way of thinking maybe is naive but not wrong,at least he is more realistic than the guys you present to be right in this scenario, a bunch of butthurt niggas who cant accept reality,cant move on and wanna live in a freaking dream forcing it to everyone else.At least Naruto accepts reality and tries to change via decent means and not weird ones like Tsuki no me,the f@ck is that.

 

[crono0929]

Its a freaking anime/manga, get over yourselves..

 

[FearxDeath]

Interesting thread.

Your quite mistaken when you try to analyse Naruto's ideals. In actuality it isnt the peace he strives for, but the constant struggle and grind for it. The seemingly never ending journey towards that peace. You may be on to something when you say that peace is an impossibility, I would actually agree with that. Personally I think peace is 2 people in a room and one person being unhappy. But you cant let that distort the ideals of goal of peace, because with enough hard work and dedication, then one can, if only for a short period of time, enjoy the serenity that comes along with a temporary peace. Like the farmer who smiles in admiration of a long days work instead of frowning in disdain for what tomorrow brings.

In the long run peace is a vice, fleeting and ever vigil. And so what they seek is not long term peace, rather a peace for the moment. The eye of the storm, they fight today in order to rest tomorrow. As they work towards peace, they can enjoy the small fruits of their labor, and if the day comes that this was all revile to be in vain, then they rest assured knowing that they did all that they could.

Giving up is always easy, and its when you start to give up in yourself and the people around you is when you head down the road like Madara and Obito. But when you have Guts, guts to know that even though things are bleak their is still hope. Thats when you attain true freedom and peace.

Theirs an old saying that Heaven would be Hell for an atheist, because for all eternity they would be forced to live with a reality that they are completely resistant to. Rest assured that Madara's world of peace if peace for only himself, as everyone he drags into that world would be their against their will, they would be slaves to his will. And have none of their own.

This reply was alot longer than it needed to be but when I start talking about philosophical things I tend to get a little preachy.

 

[saw2097]

Naruto's ideals aren't so much about peace as they are about not giving up on the world, its pretty Shounen standard.

Obito on the other hand is a lunatic, his ideals involve lobotomizing the entire world and forcing them into a world he controls.

 

[Tazzilla88]

Obito is wrong too. Remember, he plans to remove all free will. I agree with some of what you're saying, but Naruto is the lesser of two evils here.

Then you're literally stating that free will exist but if it does could Naruto have had the choice not to be the child of destiny?

 

[take it easy]

Then you're literally stating that free will exist but if it does could Naruto have had the choice not to be the child of destiny?

naruto easy might walk on sasuke and nagato path.

 

[GhostProject]

Looks like I'm in the minority here, but I disagree. I think Naruto is right

Most wars are started by stupid things like vengeance, greed, power, and pride, and other desires that essentially come from inability to trust one another because each are trying to become the strongest in case of need of 'defense' of their nation or themselves, which can lead to infringing upon others and become the very entities that they distrust others for. Some nations don't trust other nations, some nations don't trust their civilians, and people in general don't trust other people. Sometimes it's even fought for 'righteousness,' but most are willing to use any means to achieve their perfect end, which causes it to lose its meaning.

All of those reasons put you in the morally grey (or worse) areas. When that happens, you're bound to step on toes and be in the wrong somewhere, which leads to mistrust. Mistrust leads to bitterness, which leads to a cycle of conflict. Eventually it becomes in everyone's best interest to infringe upon one another, which is silly because everyone is doing it because they don't want to get screwed by the next guy, yet everyone still screws the next guy.

Understanding and trust are the foundations of peace. If we can understand one another, then we can trust. If we can reach a moment of trust, then there is a chance that we can break this whole survival of the fittest-like cycle. I'm not a pacifist or anything, but war or exhibition of power for self preservation at the cost of others breeds bitterness and mistrust, and it should always be a last resort.

You might call it naive, but the path of cynicism will always create mistrust and bitterness, and it is like giving up. Everyone has someone in their lives that they can trust, and being around that person makes them happy, especially when compared to someone they are in conflict with. That is the true nature of mankind. At the end of the day, we desire the peace and unity over the conflict.

It is only our lack of reason to trust one another that leads to decisions being made that lead to bitterness and war. We have to make decisions that will lead to trust. I believe that peace is a gradual road, and it can happen *_*

Madara and Nagato were wrong :scorps:

 

[Mr Hiru]

There is essentially no evidence that refutes Madara/Obito's claim that the world will not return to war. That the selfish desire to maintain peace leads to war, and that it's an endless cycle. Their cynicism in mankind and it's inability to change, and it's history of repeated violence and inability to understand each other is, frankly, well rooted in reality.

Naruto might be the good guy in the manga, but the real world doesn't work that way. In reality, he's a whiny, bratty, naive kid that gets by on cheap luck and friendship. The reality is that many unjust and unfair things that occur in the real world, and that war and hatred are inevitable. Regardless of the time or place, mankind is doomed to repeat this until the end of its time on Earth.

Of course, Naruto will win because this is manga and not the real world. But I'd like to see a nod on the part of the creator, that this is simply not reflective of the true nature of mankind.

I agree with the topic content related to Naruto, but I disagree with an essential point...

No godly human has the right to take decisions over mankind. This war may be related to Naruto's way to do things (and they might be wrong), but if Naruto has a bad philosophy, Obito's and Madara's are worse. This war is no longer for Naruto's peace, but for survival against Obito and Madara.

 

[krtr]

Peace is always fleeting. Naruto and five nations may or may not obtain this peace but they know the value of it.
Freedom, Independence and peace are to be clearly understood before we attain it.
After naruto gets "the peace" , people will go along with it some time, but some where in the coming generation people will forget the value of peace and give into their greed and the cycle repeats. It's just the way world is.
But what naruto is trying to do is way better than obtio/madara, just because peace is fleeting they shouldn't give up their free will to make it permanent. Free will is part of human. After all life is precious they shouldn't throw away it for some lunatic with a matrix concept.
We may or may not attain peace in real life but the path you follow to attain it matters and that's what life really is.