Pft! Rank & elemental advantages will never stop me!

[Geezus]

Then it only confirms what I thought, they most likely didn't want to start an endless debate with Kirabi since Zen and Mugi is well aware of the properties of elemental combination.

um, considering im not the one who asked for the opinion there would be no arguing to ensue, less I had valid reason and even then I wont argue against the judgement of two mods and just you saying them being aware of elemental combos validates the point of them agreeing with my side. They couldve easily said Zero was correct as well could they have not?

Also, my technique says in it's description: "A Wind Technique would only Enhance the Power and Range of this technique" Thus its an exception to the rule when it comes to combating against a wind technique. U_U but thanks I can keep that in mind for future reference.

and Tenzo may not be the best Water User, but he's more or less a good one I would say. Being a Wood User and all. but eh, I have no reason to argue anybody down when a ruling has been made.

My technique which instead of being weakened was enhanced and combats against the Water. Either Canceling out or continuing on in a weakened form.
I'm fine with saying the techniques cancel out since he does have a elemental advantage against the fire in the combo. but the addition of the wind gives the technique the edge it needs to successfully stop the technique.

either way. I await your move Zero.

 

[BlacKing]

um, considering im not the one who asked for the opinion there would be no arguing to ensue, less I had valid reason and even then I wont argue against the judgement of two mods and just you saying them being aware of elemental combos validates the point of them agreeing with my side. They couldve easily said Zero was correct as well could they have not?

Also, my technique says in it's description: "A Wind Technique would only Enhance the Power and Range of this technique" Thus its an exception to the rule when it comes to combating against a wind technique. U_U but thanks I can keep that in mind for future reference.

and Tenzo may not be the best Water User, but he's more or less a good one I would say. Being a Wood User and all. but eh, I have no reason to argue anybody down when a ruling has been made.

My technique which instead of being weakened was enhanced and combats against the Water. Either Canceling out or continuing on in a weakened form.
I'm fine with saying the techniques cancel out since he does have a elemental advantage against the fire in the combo. but the addition of the wind gives the technique the edge it needs to successfully stop the technique.

either way. I await your move Zero.

Ok. So heres how I see it. First off. The damage calculation is off.

He increases the range and power of the technique. The power of the technique and the damage of the technique are two completely separate things.

Range = Short - Long
Power = Rank of the technique.
Damage however, does not add to each other, but takes on the damage of that ranks.

So to make this easy

A Ranked Short - Long Ranged Wind that does 60 damaged + A Ranked Short - Long Ranged Fire that does 60 damage
=
S Ranked Short - Long Ranged Wind/Fire Combination that does 80 damage. He takes on the damage of the rank that is applied, not that additional damage.

That S Ranked Wind/Fire Combination...key word being Combination......is now flying towards an S Ranked Water...Range was not given and technically doesnt matter unless you are trying to say it heads towards him....

The appropriate argument should be whether or not an S Ranked Wind/Fire Combination can simply be overpowered by an S Ranked Water only technique.

The answer in short should be........................................

That I will leave to Izuna and other Mods.

Finds it funny that no1 paid any attention to what I posted. Smh

 

[ReXii]

Really i think i agree here you made a good move i mean in future just use the great exploding wave think kisame used against bee
There can be no arguement about wind and fire cutting through a 7 mile radius right?

 

[ZK]

um, considering im not the one who asked for the opinion there would be no arguing to ensue, less I had valid reason and even then I wont argue against the judgement of two mods and just you saying them being aware of elemental combos validates the point of them agreeing with my side. They couldve easily said Zero was correct as well could they have not?

Also, my technique says in it's description: "A Wind Technique would only Enhance the Power and Range of this technique" Thus its an exception to the rule when it comes to combating against a wind technique. U_U but thanks I can keep that in mind for future reference.

and Tenzo may not be the best Water User, but he's more or less a good one I would say. Being a Wood User and all. but eh, I have no reason to argue anybody down when a ruling has been made.

My technique which instead of being weakened was enhanced and combats against the Water. Either Canceling out or continuing on in a weakened form.
I'm fine with saying the techniques cancel out since he does have a elemental advantage against the fire in the combo. but the addition of the wind gives the technique the edge it needs to successfully stop the technique.

either way. I await your move Zero.

Dude! That little note is not a ticket to invincibility over the wind element!
It's all explained in the thread, which is approved by Zenryoku and Nexus + it's made by Izuna, how much more evidence do you need?

 

[Scorps]

Dude! That little note is not a ticket to invincibility over the wind element!
It's all explained in the thread, which is approved by Zenryoku and Nexus + it's made by Izuna, how much more evidence do you need?

From what i see you should now take this over to VM or PM (Msn, IRC, etc etc) with the mods to see if you can get a clear answer. You will get nowhere in this thread if this keeps up. You've made your point, correctly i think, and kirabi has made his. A mod has stated his opinion here and 2 others judged that move when it happened in the fight. So now you just have to sit and wait. Discussing and arguing further will lead to flaming and such. Let it stop while it doesn't happen ^^

 

[ZK]

From what i see you should now take this over to VM or PM (Msn, IRC, etc etc) with the mods to see if you can get a clear answer. You will get nowhere in this thread if this keeps up. You've made your point, correctly i think, and kirabi has made his. A mod has stated his opinion here and 2 others judged that move when it happened in the fight. So now you just have to sit and wait. Discussing and arguing further will lead to flaming and such. Let it stop while it doesn't happen ^^

True. I've linked both Mugiwara and Zenryoku to this thread. I guess we'll see what happens.

 

[Scorps]

True. I've linked both Mugiwara and Zenryoku to this thread. I guess we'll see what happens.

You'll eventually have your response Zero. If you fuel this longer it will lead to nothing good. ^^

 

[Migualon J.J.]

This is inhumane, and all that to clarify on a move @.@
I don't think I have the patience to read it all, but I'll try.

than why bother posting here? :|


1) Zero, where did you learn Cali´s Text Wall No Jutsu? teach it to me too please wease:


2) i agree with you Zero, i mean it´s all explained in Izuna´s thread and i must say that it´s pretty obvious that your move should have continued at Kirabi

 

[Mugiwara]

The description of his fire jutsu says that Wind would only give it more power.
Lets compare your technique to his: You have a katana, he has a long wooden stick. You throw your katana, but he still holds on to his stick and just swings down on the incoming katana. Thats what stream means.

Stream or not, his description says that "wind only gives it more power"... Being a stream, he has control of his own technique throughout the performance, where as yours, you just release it, you have no longer control over it.

Nobody ever said it'd have 120 damage.
It'd be S rank fire-wind combo, and as confirmed by Zen: S rank fire wind combo defeats S rank water.

"Wind techniques only give it more power"
Can you see it yet?

"Wind techniques only give it more power"
What about now?

"Wind techniques only give it more power"
And now?

Your saying that a stream is a stream and a wave is a wave. Nobody said that he absorbs all the wind from your technique, all he has to do is to shoot his stream right infront of himself (which he did, cause he was aiming for you) and whatever wind is in from of him, will be absorbed by the fire, giving the fire more technique, and easily shooting through the wave, gaining more power in the progress, the sides of the wave will just continue forward, having no further play in the battle.
Nobody ever said it engulfs the whole tsunami. I said the fire becomes strong enough after getting powered up by the wind to defeat your water.

The wind itself isn't very strong, its A rank because of its gigantic size and the overall damage it can do, therefore, a concentrated stream of fire is easily able to shoot through it and because the description of the fire says: "A wind would only enhance the range and power of the fire" that is what happens, the wind enhances the fire.

Both of your techniques are extremely large, therefore cause destruction on a large scale, where as all of the fire techniques power is concentrated in a small scale. The power of your techniques lie within the scale of the technique. If it had been:
(Fūton: Shinkūgyoku) – Wind Release: Balls of Wind
Rank: A
Type: Offensive
Range: Short- Mid
Chakra cost: 30
Damage points: 60
Description: After performing the necessary hand seals, the user takes a deep breath and exhales several balls of wind. The balls are capable of cutting into an opponent's flesh.

against his fire, sure, his fire would lose some of its power, but its a giant wave of wind.
Say there is hardened caramel and marshmallows, the hardened caramel would be harder to chew, where as marshmallows would just be delicious.
The mouth/teeth = fire, the candy = wind.
Your wind = marshmallows.

If your wind tsunami was concentrated and hit the fire all at the same time, it'd be able to weaken it, whereas your tsunami is very large in size, so the wind is being fed to the fire little by little, thus the fire has time to digest it.

 

[Hammy120290]

Basically

Imagine the earth in this picture is the remaining Wave & Wind Tsunamis.

You must be registered for see images

That big gap in the middle is where the fire has shot through leaving the tsunamis to pass you negating any damage caused but the fire is still in play.

 

[Izuna Uchiha]

um, considering im not the one who asked for the opinion there would be no arguing to ensue, less I had valid reason and even then I wont argue against the judgement of two mods and just you saying them being aware of elemental combos validates the point of them agreeing with my side. They couldve easily said Zero was correct as well could they have not?

Also, my technique says in it's description: "A Wind Technique would only Enhance the Power and Range of this technique" Thus its an exception to the rule when it comes to combating against a wind technique. U_U but thanks I can keep that in mind for future reference.

and Tenzo may not be the best Water User, but he's more or less a good one I would say. Being a Wood User and all. but eh, I have no reason to argue anybody down when a ruling has been made.

My technique which instead of being weakened was enhanced and combats against the Water. Either Canceling out or continuing on in a weakened form.
I'm fine with saying the techniques cancel out since he does have a elemental advantage against the fire in the combo. but the addition of the wind gives the technique the edge it needs to successfully stop the technique.

either way. I await your move Zero.

First of all, you think even if it's not you who asked a mod, the one who did wouldn't link to the actual fight?

Secondly, I don't know what you think you've created with this technique, but even if your description says wind only enhance the range and strength, it'll fall under the official rules

Those rules are clear: YOU DAMAGE POINTS WON'T BE ADDED. The result is an S-rank fire/wind combo, which in itself is nothing more then a S-rank fire attack considering wind is always used to fuel the fire, making it bigger and stronger (hence the reason why it's not S-rank). S-rank fire loses to S-rank water.

Finally (at your last paragraph), I feel like you're repeating your non-sense over and over again so I'll repeat my logical explanation:

Fire+wind = Big Fire

Big water - Equally Big Fire = Water wins because of it's elemental superiority.

How is that so hard to understand?

The description of his fire jutsu says that Wind would only give it more power.
Lets compare your technique to his: You have a katana, he has a long wooden stick. You throw your katana, but he still holds on to his stick and just swings down on the incoming katana. Thats what stream means.

Stream or not, his description says that "wind only gives it more power"... Being a stream, he has control of his own technique throughout the performance, where as yours, you just release it, you have no longer control over it.

Nobody ever said it'd have 120 damage.
It'd be S rank fire-wind combo, and as confirmed by Zen: S rank fire wind combo defeats S rank water.

"Wind techniques only give it more power"
Can you see it yet?

"Wind techniques only give it more power"
What about now?

"Wind techniques only give it more power"
And now?

Your saying that a stream is a stream and a wave is a wave. Nobody said that he absorbs all the wind from your technique, all he has to do is to shoot his stream right infront of himself (which he did, cause he was aiming for you) and whatever wind is in from of him, will be absorbed by the fire, giving the fire more technique, and easily shooting through the wave, gaining more power in the progress, the sides of the wave will just continue forward, having no further play in the battle.
Nobody ever said it engulfs the whole tsunami. I said the fire becomes strong enough after getting powered up by the wind to defeat your water.

Since when do S-rank fire+wind combo are stronger then water?

Fire+wind combinations doesn't create some kind of hybrid combination, it only creates a stronger fire. Knowning this, the result would be an S-rank fire facing an S-rank water.

I think it's easy to know who'd win there.

 

[Zenryoku]

First of all, you think even if it's not you who asked a mod, the one who did wouldn't link to the actual fight?

Secondly, I don't know what you think you've created with this technique, but even if your description says wind only enhance the range and strength, it'll fall under the official rules

Those rules are clear: YOU DAMAGE POINTS WON'T BE ADDED. The result is an S-rank fire/wind combo, which in itself is nothing more then a S-rank fire attack considering wind is always used to fuel the fire, making it bigger and stronger (hence the reason why it's not S-rank). S-rank fire loses to S-rank water.

Finally (at your last paragraph), I feel like you're repeating your non-sense over and over again so I'll repeat my logical explanation:

Fire+wind = Big Fire

Big water - Equally Big Fire = Water wins because of it's elemental superiority.

How is that so hard to understand?



Since when do S-rank fire+wind combo are stronger then water?

Fire+wind combinations doesn't create some kind of hybrid combination, it only creates a stronger fire. Knowning this, the result would be an S-rank fire facing an S-rank water.

I think it's easy to know who'd win there.

since a wind and fire combo couldnt be beaten by a water technique lets go back to kakuzu vs kakashi he used a wind and fire against kakashi and kakashi responded with a water technique that was above the rank of the two techniques making the combo and the water couldnt beat the combo, its the same principles here

 

[Hammy120290]

Fire + Wind S rank

Canon

Rank: S
Type: Offense
Range: Long
Chakra cost: 40
Damage points: 80
Description: The user after combining Fire Release: Intense pain and Wind Release: Pressure Damage at the same time. This creates a blast that is so intense that a standard water technique (ex : Water Release: Water Encampment Wall) can only at most soften of the impact. It was successsfully stopped by Yamato and Naruto's Typhoon water vortex.

vs

Rank: A
Type: Attack/Defence
Range: Short-Mid
Chakra cost: 30
Damage Points: 60
Description:The user will create a ‘Wind Style: Rasengan’ in one hand, and ‘Water Style: Destruction Torrent’ in the other. By combining them, he will create a tornado of water that can be used to attack or defend. This jutsu can also be used to drown out wind and fire combos
Note: No water source required.

Fire + Wind vs Water + Shape Manipulation = Water win....yeah I see your point

The Water should overthrow the Fire and then both jutsus negate each other.

 

[Izuna Uchiha]

since a wind and fire combo couldnt be beaten by a water technique lets go back to kakuzu vs kakashi he used a wind and fire against kakashi and kakashi responded with a water technique that was above the rank of the two techniques making the combo and the water couldnt beat the combo, its the same principles here

If you want to get technical, here are the technique used against Kakashi:

B-rank fire:

You must be registered for see links

B-rank wind:

You must be registered for see links

And Kakashi defended with this, a B-rank water:

You must be registered for see links

Hence, it follows exactly what the Elemental combination thread said:

B-rank + B-rank = A-rank fire/wind, hence it would hold it's own again a B-rank water technique (canceling each other), but let's not forget that in that thread I did mention the size could always affect the outcome (in this case it is relevant if you look at the combination of both techniques).

So, not only did Kakuzu had a higher ranked attack (hence nullifying the elemental ability), he had a bigger one.

(Source for Kakashi's technique:

You must be registered for see links

)

So, the outcome of a equally powerful technique is now relevant to the elements used (hence Kirabi's move wouldn't kill his opponent).

Note: I know some of you will stick on what Kakashi says on that page (xd), but he's obviously referring to his ability to put out that combination. The fact remains that he used a B-rank to stop a B+B-rank combo.

 

[Zenryoku]

kakashi stated a water technique wouldnt be enough to counteract a wind and fire combination when he tried to block the combo used against him.

 

[Mugiwara]

If you want to get technical, here are the technique used against Kakashi:

B-rank fire:

You must be registered for see links

B-rank wind:

You must be registered for see links

And Kakashi defended with this, a B-rank water:

You must be registered for see links

Hence, it follows exactly what the Elemental combination thread said:

B-rank + B-rank = A-rank fire/wind, hence it would hold it's own again a B-rank water technique (canceling each other), but let's not forget that in that thread I did mention the size could always affect the outcome (in this case it is relevant if you look at the combination of both techniques).

So, not only did Kakuzu had a higher ranked attack (hence nullifying the elemental ability), he had a bigger one.

(Source for Kakashi's technique:

You must be registered for see links

)

So, the outcome of a equally powerful technique is now relevant to the elements used (hence Kirabi's move wouldn't kill his opponent).

Note: I know some of you will stick on what Kakashi says on that page (xd), but he's obviously referring to his ability to put out that combination. The fact remains that he used a B-rank to stop a B+B-rank combo.

A rank fire/wind vs B rank water, they should cancel out each other, but as you can see, Kakashis water wasn't able to stop it at all. The fire was still there, it didn't look like it lost any power against it at all.

Kirabis fire, getting powered up from the wind, is still a smaller scale and more concentrated S rank, where as the water a huge tidal wave, the power of this technique, as said many times before, lie in the scale of it.
The fire/wind would just shoot through in the middle, ruining the structural integrity of the wave.

 

[Hammy120290]

kakashi stated a water technique wouldnt be enough to counteract a wind and fire combination when he tried to block the combo used against him.

But this is NB RP and the rules are changed in various things to make judgements easier and fair.

Going by one fight and one comment from Kakashi who only used a B rank fire I don't think is a solid argument.

He may have just been stating he couldn't put out a fire with just a suiton*

I.e. He only knows a small amount of Suiton techs and none that can counter this jutsu.

 

[Izuna Uchiha]

kakashi stated a water technique wouldnt be enough to counteract a wind and fire combination when he tried to block the combo used against him.

I edited too late for you to see this:

"Note: I know some of you will stick on what Kakashi says on that page, but he's obviously referring to his ability to put out that combination. The fact remains that he used a B-rank to stop a B+B-rank combo."

The ranks for each of those techniques are clear, and the result follows the logic we've been thought since the very beginning of the manga, I don't see why we're all arguing about this =/

In any case, let's continue this on msn.

A rank fire/wind vs B rank water, they should cancel out each other, but as you can see, Kakashis water wasn't able to stop it at all. The fire was still there, it didn't look like it lost any power against it at all.

Kirabis fire, getting powered up from the wind, is still a smaller scale and more concentrated S rank, where as the water a huge tidal wave, the power of this technique, as said many times before, lie in the scale of it.
The fire/wind would just shoot through in the middle, ruining the structural integrity of the wave.

About the first part, I did explain how size affect the outcome when both techniques are evenly matched.

About the second part, ok I'm ready to believe that. If it pierced right into it, then that would be the end of it.

 

[Eddy-kun..]

let the wall's of text being :|

 

[Izuna Uchiha]

After careful deliberation from me, Zen and Mugi, we've come to the conclusion that both techniques would cancel each other out.

This ends the debate, go on with the fight.