Pft! Rank & elemental advantages will never stop me!

[ZK]

So, get ready for a round of whining, cause I'm ready to roll.

This move is my problem:

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To give a summary: An A-ranked gigantic tsunami of wind was shot towards Kirabi, followed by a gigantic S-ranked tidal-wave of water. Kirabi counters with an A-ranked stream of fire. Supposedly, the stream of fire will be able to absorb every ounce of strength from the A-ranked tsunami (60 + 60 = 120) and use all that power to, not only defeat my S-ranked tidal-wave, but continue towards me afterwards.
Am I the only one who gets confused over that outcome?

The first problem is the absorbtion of the A-ranked tsunami.

This is the wind technique:

Spoiler

(Kaze Fuukaku: Kaze Nami) Wind Style: Wind Tsunami
Type:Attack
Rank:A
Range:Short/Long
Chakra Cost:30
Damage Points:60
Description: User Emits huge amount of Wind Chakra in shape of a giant tsunami wave from his mouth which covers the battle field and shields the user from many weak ninjutsu's. When it comes in contact with anything it inflicts a severe blow.

*Can only be used thrice per battle*
*Can only be Used/Taught by 0sama*

This is the fire technique:

Spoiler

Katon: Kajitori Kokyuu (Fire Style: Firebird's Breath)
Type: Attack
Rank: A
Range: Short-Long
Chakra: 30
Damage: 60
Descrption: User creates a steady stream of fire that can cover a wide area and be used as a cover as the user moves to a diffrent location. A wind Jutsu would only enhance the range and power of this jutsu.
(User is depleted of fire chakra next turn)

First of all, lets determine how big such a, and I quite; "steady stream of fire" is. The technique itself really remind me of the B-ranked fire technique, Katon: Karyu Endan, used by Hiruzen Sarutobi. But that is, of course, just a speculation. In the description it is mentioned that it can cover a wide area, but I just seem to remeber a stream, as being different from an attack the size of a tsunami. I simply can't imagine a stream being tall enough to engulf a whole tsunami. To give some pictures that shoul dgive a feeling of the size:
This is a stream of water:

Spoiler

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This is a stream of fire:

Spoiler

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This is a tsunami of water:

Spoiler

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This is a tsunami of wind:

Spoiler

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The stream can, naturally, be very wide, but a stream is a stream.
So i have to ask, how is it possible for a stream to somehow engulf a whole tsunami of wind? It simply does not seem possible.
Lets theoretically say that his fire is capable of engulfing and absorbing a whole wind tsunami, why would the equation be 60 + 60 = 120?

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This is Izuna Uchiha's thread on elemental combinations, this is what it says about wind and fire clashing "When a fire and a wind jutsu of the same rank are shot by two shinobi facing each other, the result won't be a stronger fire jutsu continuing forward, but instead it'll be a weakened fire jutsu (one rank lower then it originally was)." So why does this fire technique suddenly become twice as strong? Here's more form Izuna's thread on fire and wind clashing: "The way I see the fire and wind clashing is like putting too much air into a flame, it won't do any good. However, when a wind jutsu merge from behind it only add to both jutsus momentum, reinforcing each other. I can't think of a jutsu getting stronger as he clashes with another one and loses speed. I know Fire is the elemental weakness of wind, but we shouldn't see it as fire and fuel. Air is only good for fire in certain proportion, let's not forget that."
While the air in our atmosphere certainly does contain Oxygen, it also contains Nitrogen. Actually, our atmosphere consists of 78,08% Nitrogen. The atmosphere in the Narutverse should be quite alike. If there was as much Oxygen in the atmosphere as suggested by such a combo, lighting a fire would cause the whole world to burn. There simply cannot be such a large amount of Oxygen in the air, even in the Narutoverse.

Mugiwara judged the move with this comment: Read the Fire jutsu he used: A wind would only enhance the range and power of this jutsu.

Since the technique works as flame thrower, when the fire and wind clash, he can just keep spewing the fire, to have it full absorb the power of the wind, thus getting a stronger fire. A rank Fire + A rank wind > S rank water. The fire-wind combo would be slightly stronger than the water.
As seen in the manga and anime (Kakuzu fight). He combined A rank wind and A rank fire, meaning that Naruto and Yamato had to combine fire and wind.
Zen agreed as well.

The statement; "A wind Jutsu would only enhance the range and power of this jutsu." is all fine and dandy, but its not a free ticket that grants you invincibility over the wind element. Could one go as far as to say that such a statement is simply a little hint that informs the user that the technique would be stronger if used with a wind technique? Maybe, but the fact still remains that the wind tsunami clashes with the stream of fire, it's not used in conjunction with it.
Afterwards, Mugiwara says that because two elements are used "together" thereby forming a fire & wind combo, I would need an elemental combination to defend against the attack. I can't help but notice that his example is a bit off. In the Manga, Kakuzu's masks fires an A-ranked blast of fire and an A-ranked blast of wind in the same direction in perfect synchronization, and that combo is canceled out by an A-ranked wind Rasengan mixed with a C-ranked pocket-version of a water-tornado. These two techniques:

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Mixed together, were defeated by this:

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So, when an A-ranked wind technique clashes with an A-ranked fire technique, the result is so strong that it can evapora thousands upon thousand of liters of water in seconds and continue towards me? That doesn't seem right. The italic part was about the clash between the so called fire & wind combo and my tidal-wave, i'm just stating this to avoid any confusion.
Finally, there's the fact that Kirabi can keep spitting fire. Mugiwara mentions this as a major part pf his reasoning, as to why the fire technique would absorb a whole tsunami of water.

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I can't help but notice that even though the Sandaime keeps spitting fire, it doesn't increase the size or the range of the technique. Kirabi's technique is a stream of fire, i'm sure he could spit a lot of fire and he could probably keep it up for a long time. But the fact that he spits for for a long time doesn not automatically increase the size of his technique.

If we were to follow Izuna Uchiha's tablet, two A-ranked techniques used together (fired in the same direction) would be equal to an S-ranked technique. My water technique is S-ranked, but water has the elemental advantage over fire, therefore my technique would overpower his. Even if Kirabi's theory is correct, and the fact that his technique is now a fire & wind combo makes a big difference, the worst thing that could happen was that the two techniques would cancel each other out. I simply cannot see a scenario where his technique would continue towards me. But the fact is that the fire and wind was fire towards each other, the fire technique is indeed turned into a fire & wind combo, but it looses a lot of power (Equal to 1 rank, according to Izuna) and a B-ranked fire & wind combo simply cannot stand against an S-ranked water technqiue.

There is also the question of mass. My water technique is very big, a tidal-wave to be exact. Sometimes, even a C-ranked water technique can defeat a water & wind combo, or a fire technique alone. The fact is that water beats fire, we all know why and we all know that the more water there is, the easier the fire is beaten. A tidal-wave of water is pretty big, so unless Kirabi's fire technique somehow turns my whole wind tsunami into a fire tsunami and turns it 180 degrees around, I can't see how such a small amount of fire could evaporate sucha large amount of water. The Sandaimes technique was so hot that the fire turned white, and even then a mediocre amount of water canceled it out in a matter of seconds.

Oh, just as a funny note. I can't help but wonder why Izunas thread is approved by Nexus and Zenryoku, when Zenryoku agreed with Mugiwara.

I hope this made sense, I kinda stopped in the middle because i got caught up in a fanfic (<.<) so some stuff might be a bit confusing to read.
Comments and whatnot would be appreciated.

The links:
Izunas thread on elemental combinations:

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My fight with Kirabi:

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About the atmosphere:

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[Drizzy]

This is inhumane, and all that to clarify on a move @.@
I don't think I have the patience to read it all, but I'll try.

 

[Izuna Uchiha]

I see you've read my thread and took it into consideration so what seems to be the problem?

Lmao at the wall-o-text no jutsu.

 

[ZK]

Oh yeah, the actual question would probably be something like: Dude! How did he just shoot through my water with his fire!?
Sugar high and music ftw!

 

[Scorps]

Read it. And its all explained when you actually train someone.

If you use a B-Rank fire against a B-Rank wind, the resulting fire isn't a B+B rank Fire/Wind combo...its actually more like in-between a D and C rank fire...

But lets make a more simple comparison:

You use a b-rank water projectile against a b-rank fire ball, the water resulting will still overcome the fire and continue towards the enemy but it will lose much momentum. It will become like at best a C-Rank water bullet...but i'm more inclined by a D-Rank one.


It should be the same with fire and wind. The fire would consume that big mass of air but because of the chakra and the momentum of that mass of air it would actually lose momentum as it goes through and end up a very weak fire.

But, there is also a thing...is a fire stream, not a fire projectile if i read the jutsu right. So in theory something like a fire stream is more likely to consume air and continue on than a fire projectile. However, the fire would continue but much much weaker...at best a C-Rank fire.


oh, and this would be cooler if you posted this in the Q&A in the RP battle section instead of here ^^

 

[ZK]

Read it. And its all explained when you actually train someone.

If you use a B-Rank fire against a B-Rank wind, the resulting fire isn't a B+B rank Fire/Wind combo...its actually more like in-between a D and C rank fire...

But lets make a more simple comparison:

You use a b-rank water projectile against a b-rank fire ball, the water resulting will still overcome the fire and continue towards the enemy but it will lose much momentum. It will become like at best a C-Rank water bullet...but i'm more inclined by a D-Rank one.


It should be the same with fire and wind. The fire would consume that big mass of air but because of the chakra and the momentum of that mass of air it would actually lose momentum as it goes through.


oh, and this would be cooler if you posted this in the Q&A in the RP battle section instead of here ^^

So... You agree with me?
That when an A-ranked fire technique collides with an A-ranked wind technique, the result is not an A-ranked or S-ranked fire & wind combo, and its not nearly enought to beat an S-ranked water tehcnique?
And sorry about the section .-.

 

[Scorps]

So... You agree with me?
That when an A-ranked fire technique collides with an A-ranked wind technique, the result is not an A-ranked or S-ranked fire & wind combo, and its not nearly enought to beat an S-ranked water tehcnique?
And sorry about the section .-.

I agree. If so, you could combo with your enemies jutsu instead of your own. its basic training. You can only obtain more power from your own jutsu...not your enemies. At least in these simple cases.

For example, your enemy is channeling water jutsu (doesn't matter which one) and you use a lightning jutsu to electrify him. It would be the same as saying that your enemy takes the combo damage of both of those jutsu...his own and yours.


The fire would ontinue, yes, but not as a combo and not with enough force to push through an A-Rank mass of water.

But, this is a simplistic ananlisys. I didn't read everything in very very big detail. And, remember, i am but a mere unexperienced senpai.

 

[ZK]

Come on Sensei's and Mod's
I'm pretty sure this is correct, but my oppinion matters just as much as my dog matters in american politics. Some comments would be appreciated.

 

[Geezus]

<_< a whole thread..? when you could be replying to the battle..

 

[Geezus]

U_U the jutsu is a stream of fire meaning whatever fire is defeated is automatically replaced by a new batch of fire so it's a never ending cycle.

You also need to read the description of the technique: Which clearly states: A wind technique would only enhance the power and range of this technique.This means the technique doesnt lose power at all but instead gains it. So two A-rank techniques > 1 S-rank technique. As I said 60+60 equals to one 120. after battling with your S-rank technique it would eventually become weakend and the plume of fire that was once coming for you is miniscule in size and only comparable to a B-rank coming at you.

We've even seen the elemental advantage given by Sasuke over Wind when fighting Danzo's summon. using the Summons element against it, he strengthend his fire and destroyed the summon with one technique.

Kazuku combined two A-rank techniques and if the attack couldved been defeated by one Water Technique, Tenzo wouldve surely done it.

Fact is even if you have a elemental advantage the difference in rank is nothing. now if I tried this with lets say two B-rank techniques or something you would surely hav ebeat me out. but its not the case.

btw didnt you already have two mods agree with my side? <_< is that not enough?

 

[Izuna Uchiha]

Come on Sensei's and Mod's
I'm pretty sure this is correct, but my oppinion matters just as much as my dog matters in american politics. Some comments would be appreciated.

I did reply already, your move was correct, his response wasn't.

@Kirabi: if you feel like arguing, just read the first post of this thread, I have nothing more to say.

 

[Shade Dracova]

I saw the battle and I agree with you totally.

 

[Izuna Uchiha]

U_U the jutsu is a stream of fire meaning whatever fire is defeated is automatically replaced by a new batch of fire so it's a never ending cycle.

If such a jutsu was accepted then it'll probably check it for review. This would mean the end of all fun in the RP as we know it. An unstoppable and infinite fire technique.

You also need to read the description of the technique: Which clearly states: A wind technique would only enhance the power and range of this technique.This means the technique doesnt lose power at all but instead gains it. So two A-rank techniques > 1 S-rank technique. As I said 60+60 equals to one 120. after battling with your S-rank technique it would eventually become weakend and the plume of fire that was once coming for you is miniscule in size and only comparable to a B-rank coming at you.

I really don't know where you learned that techniques that combine stack their powers, but if you're looking for the correct way to combine elemental technique, read that thread:

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It was approved by both Nexus and Zen. I strongly suggest you read it.

We've even seen the elemental advantage given by Sasuke over Wind when fighting Danzo's summon. using the Summons element against it, he strengthend his fire and destroyed the summon with one technique.

Kazuku combined two A-rank techniques and if the attack couldved been defeated by one Water Technique, Tenzo wouldve surely done it.

Those are the weakest arguments in your reasoning. Tenzo is no where near the best water user we've seen in the manga, so his reaction to Kakuzu's attack can in no way be extrapolated to the supremacy of that combination. Also, Danzou's summon was killed because it was plain stupid lol Breathing a fire ball *smh*.

Fact is even if you have a elemental advantage the difference in rank is nothing. now if I tried this with lets say two B-rank techniques or something you would surely hav ebeat me out. but its not the case.

btw didnt you already have two mods agree with my side? <_< is that not enough?

I don't know who are the mods who agreed, but they most likely agreed because they knew you argue up until the end and they didn't wanted to get into an endless debate with you. I don't mind doing so.

Read the thread I created on elemental combination and you'll then be aware of our RP's position when it comes to them. You're way off with your logic.

 

[ZK]

I'll link this to Mugiwara.

 

[BlacKing]

Ok. So heres how I see it. First off. The damage calculation is off.

He increases the range and power of the technique. The power of the technique and the damage of the technique are two completely separate things.

Range = Short - Long
Power = Rank of the technique.
Damage however, does not add to each other, but takes on the damage of that ranks.

So to make this easy

A Ranked Short - Long Ranged Wind that does 60 damaged + A Ranked Short - Long Ranged Fire that does 60 damage
=
S Ranked Short - Long Ranged Wind/Fire Combination that does 80 damage. He takes on the damage of the rank that is applied, not that additional damage.

That S Ranked Wind/Fire Combination...key word being Combination......is now flying towards an S Ranked Water...Range was not given and technically doesnt matter unless you are trying to say it heads towards him....

The appropriate argument should be whether or not an S Ranked Wind/Fire Combination can simply be overpowered by an S Ranked Water only technique.

The answer in short should be........................................

That I will leave to Izuna and other Mods.

 

[Gobi Gobletsson]

I don't know who are the mods who agreed, but they most likely agreed because they knew you argue up until the end and they didn't wanted to get into an endless debate with you. I don't mind doing so.

Mugi nd Zenryoku.

 

[Izuna Uchiha]

Mugi nd Zenryoku.

Then it only confirms what I thought, they most likely didn't want to start an endless debate with Kirabi since Zen and Mugi is well aware of the properties of elemental combination.

 

[Typhon]

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A post that long with such an amount of links is clearly indisputable.

 

[Uchiha Paulsama]

*taking notes*

 

[~Hasashi~]

Agreed, the concept of "rank isn't everything" has to be somehow induced into the rp, even though it's a C rank(I believe) the title wave that fake-kisame used against guy and co could probably put out your average A rank fireball, due to the amount of water, it gets C rank simply because it didn't due much damage, but that much water can put out a considerably large fire.

The same applies with wind, if I were to use pressure damage, which is an extremely violent 360 degree wind jutsu(which imo should be S rank), a fireball might not be a very valid counter due to the violence of the winds, the fireball would probably get through at best a D rank, if not just cancel it off.

P.s. If any wording in this post didn't make sense, it's probably because I'm sick and I must've sneezed well over 20 times while I typed this.

P.P.S. Just realized it's all explained in izuna's thread .-.