The third layer of the wheel is divided into six sections that represent the six realms of samsara. The six realms are six different types of rebirth that beings can enter into, each representing different types of suffering.
Now I understand that, similar to what you said, these six realms can be divided into three higher realms and three lower realms. The three higher reals are God, demi-god and human, and the three lower are animal, hungry ghost, and hell.
All of them suffer pain even the god and the demi-god realm, even if they don't suffer as much.The demi-gods suffer from constant fighting and jealousy, and from being killed and wounded in their wars with each other and with the gods. The gods suffer through being reborn in the lower realms. Each realm is said to be the result of one of the six main negative emotions: pride, jealousy, desire, ignorance, greed, and anger. Imo it is not a coincidence that it fits the six paths in naruto perfectly.
Again samsara within various religions is the repeated cycle of birth, life, and death. Within Buddhism specifically, it is also said that samsara arises out of wrong knowledge about reality and is characterized by dukkha(failure, dissatisfaction, suffering). Reaching liberation would mean that you got out of the wheel of suffering. The realms, since they keep going through rebirth, are still stuck in the wheel which means they are still suffering somewhere. Liberation is equivalent to nirvana in Buddhism, which is described as the cessation of suffering and the start of complete peace.
I did a lot of research lol and that is what I got out of it. again all this is just my interpretation based on those facts so I could be completely wrong haha but it makes sense to me. Hopefully that made more sense.
Let me make clear what i was trying to say before, along with an added point:
"What sets Naruto apart is that he has been through each pain of each realm and he has not fallen to hatred, in fact, He has been able to bring peace to them."
The issue in the Deva realm is that they are so happy that they fail to recognize the suffer in others and thus lose karma, once they lose enough karma they eventually drop down into a lower realm. Here we see that suffering is only felt after leaving the realm, but the realm itself caused no pain and suffering. To argue that would be like saying my relationship with my girlfriend was bad because we ended up breaking up. The relationship may have been great, the fact that it is over causes you pain but that is no fault of the relationship itself. Now when you take into account that the Deva realm doesn't literally cause pain, it then contradicts the idea that Naruto suffered through the pain of each realm, although that might be semantics to a certain degree I still think it should be accounted for.
But more importantly I dont know what pain your talking about and how it relates to the samsara wheel. You say "Naruto suffered pain (which we know to be true)", "The Samsura is all about suffering through pain to reach enlightenment (which we know to be true)" But then go to the conclusion that Naruto's Pain is the pain of the Samsura. Now for that claim I would expect you to describe certain pains Naruto goes through, then relate them to each specific realm in the Samsura, which you dont, but then give the conclusion which is that Naruto conquered each realm, which we still have no evidence of, and reached enlightenment.
I guess what I am trying to say with the above is that further elaboration is needed. The thread, to me, feels too vague and is missing certain information/proofs that would normally make for a great theory thread. Said information being something to bridge the gap between Naruto's pain and the Suffering of the Samsura.
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In response to your second part, we need to go further into defining exactly what qualifies as "falling to hatred." To be more precise lets look at this qoute " If you decide to kill those that oppose you then you are not really bringing peace which is why madara said that it will bring darkness to the village."
Now Naruto has killed quite a few people I am sure, but a great example would be Kakuza. Now if turning towards killing once diplomacy fails counts as falling into hatred then why shouldnt this count? Unless there are even more exceptions. Perhaps falling towards hatred is made more specific as meaning killing a friend, perhaps his counterpart Indra. But before Hashirama did it, he didnt. He actually only did it when it was clear that he had no choice but to do it, remember that Madara and Hashirama fought several times after he left the village.
Now one could argue that Naruto as well would have been left no choice but to kill Sasuke if they fought and even tells Sasuke, after sasuke tries to kill Sakura after defeating Danzo, that the next time they fight both of them would die, thus ackowledging that he would have to kill Sasuke. But maybe because he never did it it doesnt count? But then again Madara is still alive, so Hashirama never did it either.
So you need to better explain what seperates Naruto from Hashirama. We have no reason to believe that either one of them did not stick to their conviction, and both have them have resorted to killing.
Well to try to avoid making the thread too long, I actually cut some things out and decided to respond to it in my replies.
Now for each pain:
Hagoromo lived in a time ruled by fear of the jubi and kaguya and I believe that he had to fight Kaguya.
Madara lost his brother, felt betrayed by his clan, and lost the hokage seat to hashirama. On top of that he saw the tablet which put everything in perspective for him and made him lose faith in the world.
Nagato also lived in a time of intense war in his country. He lost his parents and his best friend, Yahiko.
Obito lost rin and felt betrayed by Kakashi.
Sasuke lost his entire clan and felt betrayed by his brother.
Naruto was hated by his entire village and he was all alone.
There are also the six main negative emotions: pride, jealousy, desire, ignorance, greed, and anger. I believe those emotions were connected to their original pains and set them on their path of suffering. samsara=suffering, and each sage had their own path of suffering which is equivilant to the realms in the wheel of samsara(suffering). Oddly enough the order of these emotions fit the order of the six realms and fit quite well in naruto as well.
the suffering they felt was:
Hagoromo was stuck in constant wars(during his lifetime and even following the long war between his sons)
Madara obsession with power and trying to bring an end to this world, thus bringing peace.
Nagato desire to inflict pain on the world to bring peace that way.
Obito's ignorance on what truly happened made him resent the world and create a false world.
Sasuke's want to kill his brother no matter what and they restore the uchiha clan.
Now naruto is the only one that stands out and doesn't quite fit. I could say his desire to be acknowledged but I think there is reason why he doesn't really fit. When I said he went through all the other pains I was referring to this. Like madara, Naruto needed power and he has become quite powerful but he didn't become like madara. He still worries and cares about others. Like Sasuke, he lost a close bond, jiraiya, but he managed to forgive Nagato. Like obito, he (almost) lost Hinata right in front of him but as he was going insane he heards minato's words and overcame that hatred. Now he is in the middle of overcoming everything that happened because of the war.
That's why I believe Naruto is conquering each path and bringing an end to the cycle of suffering.
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Regarding part 2, I would argue that Madara was directly opposing the peace that Hashirama was trying to establish, and what did Hashirama do eventually, he killed him. Did it bring temporary peace? yes. Did it bring a long lasting peace? no. Kakuzu did not directly oppose the peace that Naruto is trying to bring so I wouldn't say that was falling to hatred. Before Naruto was ignorant of such things. I think that if Naruto had his encounter with pain before that, he wouldn't have killed him.
Regarding sasuke I was thinking more that he was going to try to persuade him to the point of dying and that if he was going to die, then he would take sasuke down with him. Personally, I believe Naruto wouldn't have killed Sasuke in order to establish peace. Of course since it didn't happen or at least not yet we don't know but that's what I believe. He had the chance to kill Nagato multiple times and kill Obito multiple times but he never did.
I enjoy discussing this with you. You bring up some very, very good points=D
Edit: Also, I forgot. Regarding the deva realm, I would still consider it suffering. The example you gave with your girlfriend was very good and completely true, I can't argue with that. However, to put it in context with Naruto, I believe Hagoromo is the example of the deva realm and he suffered by being forced to watch his sons fight endlessly. This is another perspective on it that I wanted to add.
Well to try to avoid making the thread too long, I actually cut some things out and decided to respond to it in my replies.
Now for each pain:
Hagoromo lived in a time ruled by fear of the jubi and kaguya and I believe that he had to fight Kaguya.
Madara lost his brother, felt betrayed by his clan, and lost the hokage seat to hashirama. On top of that he saw the tablet which put everything in perspective for him and made him lose faith in the world.
Nagato also lived in a time of intense war in his country. He lost his parents and his best friend, Yahiko.
Obito lost rin and felt betrayed by Kakashi.
Sasuke lost his entire clan and felt betrayed by his brother.
Naruto was hated by his entire village and he was all alone.
There are also the six main negative emotions: pride, jealousy, desire, ignorance, greed, and anger. I believe those emotions were connected to their original pains and set them on their path of suffering. samsara=suffering, and each sage had their own path of suffering which is equivilant to the realms in the wheel of samsara(suffering). Oddly enough the order of these emotions fit the order of the six realms and fit quite well in naruto as well.
the suffering they felt was:
Hagoromo was stuck in constant wars(during his lifetime and even following the long war between his sons)
Madara obsession with power and trying to bring an end to this world, thus bringing peace.
Nagato desire to inflict pain on the world to bring peace that way.
Obito's ignorance on what truly happened made him resent the world and create a false world.
Sasuke's want to kill his brother no matter what and they restore the uchiha clan.
Now naruto is the only one that stands out and doesn't quite fit. I could say his desire to be acknowledged but I think there is reason why he doesn't really fit. When I said he went through all the other pains I was referring to this. Like madara, Naruto needed power and he has become quite powerful but he didn't become like madara. He still worries and cares about others. Like Sasuke, he lost a close bond, jiraiya, but he managed to forgive Nagato. Like obito, he (almost) lost Hinata right in front of him but as he was going insane he heards minato's words and overcame that hatred. Now he is in the middle of overcoming everything that happened because of the war.
That's why I believe Naruto is conquering each path and bringing an end to the cycle of suffering.
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Regarding part 2, I would argue that Madara was directly opposing the peace that Hashirama was trying to establish, and what did Hashirama do eventually, he killed him. Did it bring temporary peace? yes. Did it bring a long lasting peace? no. Kakuzu did not directly oppose the peace that Naruto is trying to bring so I wouldn't say that was falling to hatred. Before Naruto was ignorant of such things. I think that if Naruto had his encounter with pain before that, he wouldn't have killed him.
Regarding sasuke I was thinking more that he was going to try to persuade him to the point of dying and that if he was going to die, then he would take sasuke down with him. Personally, I believe Naruto wouldn't have killed Sasuke in order to establish peace. Of course since it didn't happen or at least not yet we don't know but that's what I believe. He had the chance to kill Nagato multiple times and kill Obito multiple times but he never did.
I enjoy discussing this with you. You bring up some very, very good points=D
Edit: Also, I forgot. Regarding the deva realm, I would still consider it suffering. The example you gave with your girlfriend was very good and completely true, I can't argue with that. However, to put it in context with Naruto, I believe Hagoromo is the example of the deva realm and he suffered by being forced to watch his sons fight endlessly. This is another perspective on it that I wanted to add.
Now things are beginning to get strange. Now in the Samsura Wheel a person must suffer through the realms, multiple times, until they reach enlightenment. So if someone was trying to make a comparison to Naruto and the Wheel you would simply say how he conquered each individual pain, simple.
Instead your saying that OTHER people went through pain, and you arent even specific as to how each pain they suffered relate to the Wheel, and then show that Naruto somehow helped them get past this pain. But in the Samsura wheel you dont reach enlightenment by helping others, you reach it by suffering through each individual pain yourself, so you can argue that everyone Naruto helped is closer to enlightenment, but Naruto cant be since we havent seen him suffer through any of the realms yet. But more importantly:
Hagoromo lived in a time ruled by fear of the jubi and kaguya and I believe that he had to fight Kaguya. (Is this pride?)
Madara lost his brother, felt betrayed by his clan, and lost the hokage seat to hashirama. On top of that he saw the tablet which put everything in perspective for him and made him lose faith in the world. (Is this jealousy?)
Nagato also lived in a time of intense war in his country. He lost his parents and his best friend, Yahiko. (which is what?)
Obito lost rin and felt betrayed by Kakashi. (Is this ignorance?)
Sasuke lost his entire clan and felt betrayed by his brother. (Anger?)
Naruto was hated by his entire village and he was all alone.
I dont see how any of these relate to the wheel, or how they exemplify each specific realm. Or even why solving a part of their suffering would then end the cycle of suffering, which is a bold claim in itself. The Samsura Cycle of suffering is neccesary so that beings can reach nirvana. If you end it then, no more nirvana for anyone. So what do you mean by ending the cycle of suffering?
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Madara was trying to destroy the village thus harming Hashirama's fiends, so Hashirama killed him.
Kakuza was trying to destroy the village thus harm Naruto's friends, so Naruto killed him.
I am having a hard time seeing the difference in actions, but your suggesting that inside each of the characters minds they saw things different, with one of your excuses being that Naruto was ignorant at the time? In fact alot of the thread deals with how you feel or think characters did/should feel, which is conjecture at best.
Well earlier you spoke on how the action itself is less meaningful and it is more about the mindset of the character. But we see Naruto blatently tell Sasuke that the next time they fight "they will both die" implying that he has resolved to killing him to protect the village. Now I am to assume that this is a lie and that he wouldnt really do it, why? Because it makes your theory make sense. This is a bad habit to fall into.
So to sum up my points:
1) How Naruto reaches enlightenment by helping others through their suffering, when in the Samsura you yourself must suffer to reach enlightenment.
2) How the characters suffering relates to the Samsura Wheel.
3) How Hashirama and Naruto differ in that one fell to hatred and one didnt, although their actions were very similar the results are different in your thread, you claim because they had different mindsets at the time, but that is conjecture. Especially when Naruto has shown to be in the same mindset as Hashirama as far as being willing to kill Sasuke.
Ive enjoyed this discussion as well, its always nice to help refine a thread where ever possible. Im sure your next thread will be even better! Cant wait to check it out.
Now things are beginning to get strange. Now in the Samsura Wheel a person must suffer through the realms, multiple times, until they reach enlightenment. So if someone was trying to make a comparison to Naruto and the Wheel you would simply say how he conquered each individual pain, simple.
Instead your saying that OTHER people went through pain, and you arent even specific as to how each pain they suffered relate to the Wheel, and then show that Naruto somehow helped them get past this pain. But in the Samsura wheel you dont reach enlightenment by helping others, you reach it by suffering through each individual pain yourself, so you can argue that everyone Naruto helped is closer to enlightenment, but Naruto cant be since we havent seen him suffer through any of the realms yet. But more importantly:
I dont see how any of these relate to the wheel, or how they exemplify each specific realm. Or even why solving a part of their suffering would then end the cycle of suffering, which is a bold claim in itself. The Samsura Cycle of suffering is neccesary so that beings can reach nirvana. If you end it then, no more nirvana for anyone. So what do you mean by ending the cycle of suffering?
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Madara was trying to destroy the village thus harming Hashirama's fiends, so Hashirama killed him.
Kakuza was trying to destroy the village thus harm Naruto's friends, so Naruto killed him.
I am having a hard time seeing the difference in actions, but your suggesting that inside each of the characters minds they saw things different, with one of your excuses being that Naruto was ignorant at the time? In fact alot of the thread deals with how you feel or think characters did/should feel, which is conjecture at best.
Well earlier you spoke on how the action itself is less meaningful and it is more about the mindset of the character. But we see Naruto blatently tell Sasuke that the next time they fight "they will both die" implying that he has resolved to killing him to protect the village. Now I am to assume that this is a lie and that he wouldnt really do it, why? Because it makes your theory make sense. This is a bad habit to fall into.
So to sum up my points:
1) How Naruto reaches enlightenment by helping others through their suffering, when in the Samsura you yourself must suffer to reach enlightenment.
2) How the characters suffering relates to the Samsura Wheel.
3) How Hashirama and Naruto differ in that one fell to hatred and one didnt, although their actions were very similar the results are different in your thread, you claim because they had different mindsets at the time, but that is conjecture. Especially when Naruto has shown to be in the same mindset as Hashirama as far as being willing to kill Sasuke.
Ive enjoyed this discussion as well, its always nice to help refine a thread where ever possible. Im sure your next thread will be even better! Cant wait to check it out.
Thanks! I'm realising how hard it is to put your thoughts into words haha. This, along with part 1, is my first big thread and it is nice to get some positive criticism for improvement, I appreciate it.
My point on how its related to naruto is that the six paths represent the six realms. As they keep suffering, the cycle won't stop and pain and hatred will continue in the naruto verse. For it too change something needed to be different and this is where naruto comes in. Instead of losing faith in the possibility for peace in the world, naruto keeps believing and on top of that he making the others believe in it(I think sasuke and madara will eventually come).
Regarding naruto and what he said to sasuke, I also believe that he was referring to when he felt indra's presence when he exchanged fists with sasuke and for some reason if they did fight to the death they would both die. I'm not just saying this to make the thread make sense. Regardless of the thread, I just don't believe naruto was willing to kill sasuke the same way hashirama killed madara.
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Sorry I gotta keep it short cause I'm in class right now lol.
looking at what you have done with that guy's eyes, I would say you are talking about obito. My response to that then would be that it was his way to stop the hell that is the ninja world in his eyes. He believed that all that(the war and the killing) was just a worthy sacrifice to bring peace. He even said at the 5 kage summit that they could just give up and avoid the war/killing all together.
The very nature of humans is war. Peace can be bought. Though in the price of tears or blood.
If this manga was about non volence how many of us would read it?
Not me.
Excelent paraleism and theory. But even in The NV the idea of peace has been presented serveral times over and has been swallowed by hate
Ashura Had an Indra
Hashi's village had a madara
Naruto's team had a sauske
I loved to say that after the manga closes peace will be achived but it wont. Before there were guns there were rocks. Before there were rocks there was fist. Before that words, And before that hatred for someone not being the same as you.
We hate therefore there is war.
I dream therefore there is hope.
I bleed therefore there is peace
I cry therefore there is understanding.
But we die therefore we never were.
Baiscally Naruto will die. Sauske will die. They will pass into ledgends as heros and gods do and one day the hatred so deep insde us will turn to fist and to rocks and to knives and bows and from nishuu to nijutsu and from that we have power struggles and war.
SO great parralelis but never practical. Not as long as we are different.
The very nature of humans is war. Peace can be bought. Though in the price of tears or blood.
If this manga was about non volence how many of us would read it?
Not me.
Excelent paraleism and theory. But even in The NV the idea of peace has been presented serveral times over and has been swallowed by hate
Ashura Had an Indra
Hashi's village had a madara
Naruto's team had a sauske
I loved to say that after the manga closes peace will be achived but it wont. Before there were guns there were rocks. Before there were rocks there was fist. Before that words, And before that hatred for someone not being the same as you.
We hate therefore there is war.
I dream therefore there is hope.
I bleed therefore there is peace
I cry therefore there is understanding.
But we die therefore we never were.
Baiscally Naruto will die. Sauske will die. They will pass into ledgends as heros and gods do and one day the hatred so deep insde us will turn to fist and to rocks and to knives and bows and from nishuu to nijutsu and from that we have power struggles and war.
SO great parralelis but never practical. Not as long as we are different.
Thanks man. I really enjoyed reading your perspective.
Couple things:
1. In a way, the manga is about non violence. Just look at naruto's actions. He managed to change pain and obito without killing them. Now yes there is violence, this is about ninjas after all, but I think it is the equivalent, the infamous tnj haha.
2. Like you said there will always be hate. Where there is light, there is also darkness, but I think what matters is the belief in peace. If more people believe in the possibility of peace, then it becomes more achievable then before. Also you can pass on that belief so even though naruto will eventually die, the belief in peace will not. That's my take on it haha
I was reading your thread (Part 2: Achieving peace). it was a good thread, but there are somethings i don’t agree with
like madara believe in naruto, but when you talked about how people are believing in naruto that was very good.
I want you to think about naruto and madara , jesus and antichrist.
for naruto is jesus the one who everyone believe in and known as the savior and the light of the world.
and madara is antichrist, i made a thread about the similarity between madara and antichrist but narutobase Security didn’t allow me to spread that thread.
and now do you think antichrist is going to believe in jesus , of course not
Well first of all thanks for reading! I decided to respond to it over here cause I had the rest of the discussion here so it was easier this way.
It's actually the first time I have heard this interpretation of Naruto being jesus and madara the antichrist, it's very interesting. However, I don't believe that is the case. I think it is more accurate that madara is one of the six paths, like nagato and obito. If madara was the antichrists imo, then he would have a special connection with naruto that the other sages don't have but that is not the case. It is more fitting for him to be one of the paths then to be the antichrists. Also kishi uses Buddhism a lot as inspiration and this fits perfectly the situation in Naruto.
Well first of all thanks for reading! I decided to respond to it over here cause I had the rest of the discussion here so it was easier this way.
It's actually the first time I have heard this interpretation of Naruto being jesus and madara the antichrist, it's very interesting. However, I don't believe that is the case. I think it is more accurate that madara is one of the six paths, like nagato and obito. If madara was the antichrists imo, then he would have a special connection with naruto that the other sages don't have but that is not the case. It is more fitting for him to be one of the paths then to be the antichrists. Also kishi uses Buddhism a lot as inspiration and this fits perfectly the situation in Naruto.
I do understand you, you think that as garra and nagato and obito fought naruto and then became friend with him you think that maybe happen to madara, I am working right now on a thread called (The two opposing forces uchiha and senju ) i still didn’t spread it,when i spread it I want you to read it and think about the difference between naruto and madara, because there is something indra and madara have other people don’t have.
I do understand you, you think that as garra and nagato and obito fought naruto and then became friend with him you think that maybe happen to madara, I am working right now on a thread called (The two opposing forces uchiha and senju ) i still didn’t spread it,when i spread it I want you to read it and think about the difference between naruto and madara, because there is something indra and madara have other people don’t have.
Well first I got a question. You said that indra and madara have but others don't have, are you implying that sasuke doesn't have it either. If so, you're probably going to talk about it in your thread but why?
Well first I got a question. You said that indra and madara have but others don't have, are you implying that sasuke doesn't have it either. If so, you're probably going to talk about it in your thread but why?
I just forget to say sasuke have it , but i think as long as madara exist naruto’s worst enemy will be madara , also i spread my thread i want you to read it and tell me your thoughts
I just forget to say sasuke have it , but i think as long as madara exist naruto’s worst enemy will be madara , also i spread my thread i want you to read it and tell me your thoughts
Oh ok. Send me a link to your thread, I will be happy to read it.
I'm still not sure if you understood what I said though because you mentioned garra. True naruto did the same thing with garra and that also goes to show that naruto is able to change people. Another example I can think of is zabuza when he was alive.
What I was referring to though is the wheel of samsara and the six sages being equivalent to the six realms of the wheel. I still think that in nv there is still that hatred between the uchiha and the senju and that naruto and sasuke will both take care of that, but I believe naruto will be the one to ultimately bring peace to the world.
Oh ok. Send me a link to your thread, I will be happy to read it.
I'm still not sure if you understood what I said though because you mentioned garra. True naruto did the same thing with garra and that also goes to show that naruto is able to change people. Another example I can think of is zabuza when he was alive.
What I was referring to though is the wheel of samsara and the six sages being equivalent to the six realms of the wheel. I still think that in nv there is still that hatred between the uchiha and the senju and that naruto and sasuke will both take care of that, but I believe naruto will be the one to ultimately bring peace to the world.
