Part 2: Achieving peace

[davidou]

Ya why not. I don't think that's the case but who knows

Nice discussion , my friend...:erm:

 

[guts2nevergiveup]

Nice discussion , my friend...:erm:

Thank you my friend. I enjoy nice discussions lol.

What do you think about what I said about sasuke's role in this?

 

[Akasuna]

Ok I see what you're saying. Kishi may have been inspired from Buddhism but it doesn't have to mean that he will interpret everything the same way. I'm still sticking to what I said in the thread though.

Also, i'm sorry but I'm not sure I really understand your last paragraph. Are you saying that on top of referring to Samsara, the six paths also refers to the power that Hagoromo has? If so, I believe that it is just a way to name that power. Since hagoromo was known as the sage of six paths, I believe they are just simply referring to hagoromo's power as the power of the six paths and that it has no connection whatsoever to the fact that the six paths represent the six realms in the wheel of samsara.

Oh, no, this is the interesting thing; I'm making a thread concerning this topic at the very moment: the Uchiha, Senju, and Hyuuga each had different defining mythologies and religions they're inspired by. For the Uchiha, it was Shintoism; for the Senju, Buddhism; and for the Hyuuga, Taoism.

 

[guts2nevergiveup]

Oh, no, this is the interesting thing; I'm making a thread concerning this topic at the very moment: the Uchiha, Senju, and Hyuuga each had different defining mythologies and religions they're inspired by. For the Uchiha, it was Shintoism; for the Senju, Buddhism; and for the Hyuuga, Taoism.

Interesting. I don't know much about that so I'm looking forward to your thread.

Thanks for reading!

 

[guts2nevergiveup]

Amazing bro.

Thank you God

 

[davidou]

Thank you my friend. I enjoy nice discussions lol.

What do you think about what I said about sasuke's role in this?

Ya why not. I don't think that's the case but who knows.

I'm joking , what did you say about Sasuke?

Sasuke's moon is in the waxing gibbous , the step next to waxing gibbous is full moon(Naruto).
If you are talking about Sasuke being the 5th path before Naruto , I agree because of your theory and the argument above.

 

[davidou]

Oh, no, this is the interesting thing; I'm making a thread concerning this topic at the very moment: the Uchiha, Senju, and Hyuuga each had different defining mythologies and religions they're inspired by. For the Uchiha, it was Shintoism; for the Senju, Buddhism; and for the Hyuuga, Taoism.

Naruto manga is a mix of Shintoism/Buddhism/Taoism/Hinduism/Japan History/Japanese tales/Kishimoto's feelings...It's not easy to analyse.
Sasuke's statue is not Shintoist , it looks a lot like Shiva (Hinduism , Buddhism) , Itachi's flashback statue at the right looks like buddha.




I'm still wondering if that manga is about the syncretism Shintoism/Buddhism that happened in Japan a century ago , cause a lot of Kishimoto's inspirations come from those 2 religions:
the statue behind Naruto is a Shintoist god (a Ashura) , the statue behind Sasuke is more like Shiva or Buddha , Buddhist deities).
The manga talks about Sasuke/Naruto , they could represent Buddhism/Shintoism History in Japan.

Kukai (a high born priest in Japan born in 774 , he reminds me SO6P) thought about that syncretism (Kukai called it Shingon , =ninshuu?) 1000 years ago , but the way wasn't easy , it took 1000 years to make the "war" between Buddhism (chinese new religion , "fashion") and Shintoism (traditionnal) stop in Japan.
Nowadays , almost every japanese religion is syncretic.
Syncretism Shinto/Buddhist in Japan:Shinbutsu shugo

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Cooperation of knowledges is the key to enlightment of those knowledges.

 

[guts2nevergiveup]

Ya why not. I don't think that's the case but who knows.

I'm joking , what did you say about Sasuke?

Sasuke's moon is in the waxing gibbous , the step next to waxing gibbous is full moon(Naruto).
If you are talking about Sasuke being the 5th path before Naruto , I agree because of your theory and the argument above.

I was mostly referring to naruto fighting sasuke haha but ya I think he is the 5th path before naruto. Imo he will help naruto stop the cycle of hatred between the uchiha and the senju but not hatred from the wheel of samsara.

 

[davidou]

I was mostly referring to naruto fighting sasuke haha but ya I think he is the 5th path before naruto. Imo he will help naruto stop the cycle of hatred between the uchiha and the senju but not hatred from the wheel of samsara.

Sorry but now , what do you say about Sasu/Naru fight?

 

[guts2nevergiveup]

Naruto manga is a mix of shintoism/buddhism/taoism/hinduism/Japan History/Japanese tales/Kishimoto's feeling...It's not easy to analyse.
Sasuke's statue is not shintoist , it looks a lot like Shiva (Hinduism , Buddhism) , Itachi's flashback statue at the right looks like buddha.


I'm still wondering if that manga is about the syncretism shinto/biddhism that happened in Japan a century ago , cause a lot of Kishimoto's inspirations come from those 2 religions (the statue behind Naruto is a shintoist god (a Ashura) , the statue behind Sasuke is more like Shiva or Buddha , buddhist deities).
Kukai (a high born priest , he reminds me SO6P) thought about that syncretism (shingon) 1000 years ago , but the way wasn't easy , it took 1000 years to make the "war" between buddhism (chinese new religion , "fashion") and shintoism (traditionnal) stop in Japan.
Nowadays , almost every japanese religion is syncretic.
Cooperation of knowledges is the key to enlightment of those knowledges.

The manga talks about Sasuke/Naruto , they could represent Buddhism/Shintoism History in Japan.

Very interesting. That's why I like having discussions like that! What I said is by no means correct. It could be completely wrong.it's just my interpretation of what is happening so thanks for contributing, I appreciate it.

What you said could be right. I don't think kishi uses buddhism solely but I think that's what he uses the most and I thought that this was an obvious connection but again I could be wrong.

I like what you said. The fact that the fruit appears once a millennium aka 1000 years, could be a connection. I also like what you said about cooperation being the key to enlightenment.

I'm still sticking to what I said haha but I really like what you said

 

[davidou]

Very interesting. That's why I like having discussions like that! What I said is by no means correct. It could be completely wrong.it's just my interpretation of what is happening so thanks for contributing, I appreciate it.

What you said could be right. I don't think kishi uses buddhism solely but I think that's what he uses the most and I thought that this was an obvious connection but again I could be wrong.

I like what you said. The fact that the fruit appears once a millennium aka 1000 years, could be a connection. I also like what you said about cooperation being the key to enlightenment.

I'm still sticking to what I said haha but I really like what you said

I didn't say you were wrong.
I agree with your theory.
It's still a great one!

Lots of mysteries to solve yet!

 

[guts2nevergiveup]

Sorry but now , what do you say about Sasu/Naru fight?

Well that he has his own idea on how to bring peace. He will help put an end to the cycle of hatred between the uchiha and the senju and help naruto defeat madara. However, I believe that after that he will not work along with naruto. I think that after seeing the tablet, he, like madara, thinks that true peace is not possible and he will try to bring peace in is own way. For example, I think he will try to get rid of the bijuus.

Sasuke imo has still lost faith in this world. He wants to bring peace, but plans to impose it, which is why he wants to become hokage.

What do you think?

 

[guts2nevergiveup]

I didn't say you were wrong.
I agree with your theory.
It's still a great one!

Lots of mysteries to solve yet!

Ya I know you didn't say that I was wrong haha. I was just saying that I really like your take on it bro and that it could be legit.

But yes I still believe in what I said earlier haha.
let's just see how it plays out.

 

[davidou]

Well that he has his own idea on how to bring peace. He will help put an end to the cycle of hatred between the uchiha and the senju and help naruto defeat madara. However, I believe that after that he will not work along with naruto. I think that after seeing the tablet, he, like madara, thinks that true peace is not possible and he will try to bring peace in is own way. For example, I think he will try to get rid of the bijuus.

Sasuke imo has still lost faith in this world. He wants to bring peace, but plans to impose it, which is why he wants to become hokage.

What do you think?

Intersting.

Sasuke is helping defeating Madara.
The prophecy said that Naruto vs Sasuke will happen.
Sasuke has to disagree with Naruto later.

It could very well be on bijuus problematic (Naruto's friends) that they disagrees.

Now that I think about it (thanks) , I don't really see other subjects of disagreement between them.

It has to be that or the "who will become Hokage" fight.

edit/joke:Or the fight for Sakura...

 

[guts2nevergiveup]

Intersting.

Sasuke is helping defeating Madara.
The prophecy said that Naruto vs Sasuke will happen.
Sasuke has to disagree with Naruto later.

It could very well be on bijuus problematic (Naruto's friends) that they disagrees.

Now that I think about it (thanks) , I don't really see other subjects of disagreement between them.

It has to be that or the "who will become Hokage" fight.

Ya I don't think it is just gonna be about the bijuus though. I think they will disagree about peace, and that similar to what nagato, obito and madara were trying to do, Sasuke's peace will just be an illusion because he has lost faith in true peace and Naruto will show him the right path.

I think that sasuke's plan consists of getting rid of the bijuus and the chakra that they inhabit and as we have seen, Naruto completely disagrees. They are part of the world, they must exists, which is one of the reasons why sasuke's plan will not bring true peace.

Again, I could be completely wrong but that's what I predict.

Edit/ response to joke: Hell no!! haha, I would be so disappointed lol

 

[guts2nevergiveup]

Buda Was from India the hole believe in reincarnation is a punishment for Bad Karma accumulated in life. The ideal state is to never be reincarnated so that you do not have bad karma and you can become one with all things. That why You pray and try to lead a Saintly live. The worst your karma is you could come back as someones food like a chi keen thats way in India Cows are Holly it might be your Mother,Father or other relative.

Interesting. I don't see the connection with my thread but this is interesting nonetheless.

 

[FearxDeath]

I like your style man, your a good thread maker. But the one thing I think you should attempt to do is place the scans in image boxes that way we people dont have to follow the link to see them, like you did with the youtube video. Secondly place the images and videos in spoiler tags that way it doesnt take up too much of the page, without that the thread itself was a little hard to read.

But after I did I saw some things that I liked, an issue i think you run into is a misunderstanding of the Samsara wheel. As far as each realm representing a kind of pain. In actuallity 2 represent heaven, 2 represent mankind and 2 represent hell. The realms represent the form you take. Human realm = Human, Animal Realm = Animal, Ashura Realm = Demon/Demi God, Deva Realm = God, etc...

But getting back to the notion that not all realms have pain, for instance the Deva Realm is filled with unlimited amounts of happiness. These Deva's are so happy in this realm that they fail to see the pain of others. So the Deva realm is about as happy a place you can be, the same can be said of the Ashura Realm which is just as happy but the people in this realm become jealous of the ones in the Deva Realm etc..

So the rue here is that when the meaning behind the realms which you qoute are brought into the thread you begin to see a dissonance.

Also you mention Naruto not falling to Hatred, but Hashirama who we also know possessed Ashura's Chakra didnt seem to fall to hatred either. Which begs the question if anyone with Ashura's chakra fell to hatred and if not then why is Naruto special.

Nice thread!

 

[guts2nevergiveup]

I like your style man, your a good thread maker. But the one thing I think you should attempt to do is place the scans in image boxes that way we people dont have to follow the link to see them, like you did with the youtube video. Secondly place the images and videos in spoiler tags that way it doesnt take up too much of the page, without that the thread itself was a little hard to read.

But after I did I saw some things that I liked, an issue i think you run into is a misunderstanding of the Samsara wheel. As far as each realm representing a kind of pain. In actuallity 2 represent heaven, 2 represent mankind and 2 represent hell. The realms represent the form you take. Human realm = Human, Animal Realm = Animal, Ashura Realm = Demon/Demi God, Deva Realm = God, etc...

But getting back to the notion that not all realms have pain, for instance the Deva Realm is filled with unlimited amounts of happiness. These Deva's are so happy in this realm that they fail to see the pain of others. So the Deva realm is about as happy a place you can be, the same can be said of the Ashura Realm which is just as happy but the people in this realm become jealous of the ones in the Deva Realm etc..

So the rue here is that when the meaning behind the realms which you qoute are brought into the thread you begin to see a dissonance.

Also you mention Naruto not falling to Hatred, but Hashirama who we also know possessed Ashura's Chakra didnt seem to fall to hatred either. Which begs the question if anyone with Ashura's chakra fell to hatred and if not then why is Naruto special.

Nice thread!

You're the second one to tell me that haha. I know what you are talking about but since i'm new here, I didn't know how to do it. Now that I know I will try to do it that way for future threads. I have to go right now but as soon as I have time I will actually respond to what you said lol.

Thanks for reading and for your contribution! Much appreciated!

 

[guts2nevergiveup]

But after I did I saw some things that I liked, an issue i think you run into is a misunderstanding of the Samsara wheel. As far as each realm representing a kind of pain. In actuallity 2 represent heaven, 2 represent mankind and 2 represent hell. The realms represent the form you take. Human realm = Human, Animal Realm = Animal, Ashura Realm = Demon/Demi God, Deva Realm = God, etc...

But getting back to the notion that not all realms have pain, for instance the Deva Realm is filled with unlimited amounts of happiness. These Deva's are so happy in this realm that they fail to see the pain of others. So the Deva realm is about as happy a place you can be, the same can be said of the Ashura Realm which is just as happy but the people in this realm become jealous of the ones in the Deva Realm etc..

So the rue here is that when the meaning behind the realms which you qoute are brought into the thread you begin to see a dissonance.

The third layer of the wheel is divided into six sections that represent the six realms of samsara. The six realms are six different types of rebirth that beings can enter into, each representing different types of suffering.

Now I understand that, similar to what you said, these six realms can be divided into three higher realms and three lower realms. The three higher reals are God, demi-god and human, and the three lower are animal, hungry ghost, and hell.

All of them suffer pain even the god and the demi-god realm, even if they don't suffer as much.The demi-gods suffer from constant fighting and jealousy, and from being killed and wounded in their wars with each other and with the gods. The gods suffer through being reborn in the lower realms. Each realm is said to be the result of one of the six main negative emotions: pride, jealousy, desire, ignorance, greed, and anger. Imo it is not a coincidence that it fits the six paths in naruto perfectly.

Again samsara within various religions is the repeated cycle of birth, life, and death. Within Buddhism specifically, it is also said that samsara arises out of wrong knowledge about reality and is characterized by dukkha(failure, dissatisfaction, suffering). Reaching liberation would mean that you got out of the wheel of suffering. The realms, since they keep going through rebirth, are still stuck in the wheel which means they are still suffering somewhere. Liberation is equivalent to nirvana in Buddhism, which is described as the cessation of suffering and the start of complete peace.

I did a lot of research lol and that is what I got out of it. again all this is just my interpretation based on those facts so I could be completely wrong haha but it makes sense to me. Hopefully that made more sense.

Also you mention Naruto not falling to Hatred, but Hashirama who we also know possessed Ashura's Chakra didnt seem to fall to hatred either. Which begs the question if anyone with Ashura's chakra fell to hatred and if not then why is Naruto special.

I believe there is one thing that seperates Naruto from the others, he hasn't lost faith. Naruto still believes in peace no matter what, and here is a nice comparison to show you.

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while hashirama,

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We could say that he lost faith in peace which is why he decided to kill madara. If you decide to kill those that oppose you then you are not really bringing peace which is why madara said that it will bring darkness to the village. Naruto is trying to make people believe in him by showing them the right path which is why he is different. What do you think?

 

[FearxDeath]

Spoiler

The third layer of the wheel is divided into six sections that represent the six realms of samsara. The six realms are six different types of rebirth that beings can enter into, each representing different types of suffering.

Now I understand that, similar to what you said, these six realms can be divided into three higher realms and three lower realms. The three higher reals are God, demi-god and human, and the three lower are animal, hungry ghost, and hell.

All of them suffer pain even the god and the demi-god realm, even if they don't suffer as much.The demi-gods suffer from constant fighting and jealousy, and from being killed and wounded in their wars with each other and with the gods. The gods suffer through being reborn in the lower realms. Each realm is said to be the result of one of the six main negative emotions: pride, jealousy, desire, ignorance, greed, and anger. Imo it is not a coincidence that it fits the six paths in naruto perfectly.

Again samsara within various religions is the repeated cycle of birth, life, and death. Within Buddhism specifically, it is also said that samsara arises out of wrong knowledge about reality and is characterized by dukkha(failure, dissatisfaction, suffering). Reaching liberation would mean that you got out of the wheel of suffering. The realms, since they keep going through rebirth, are still stuck in the wheel which means they are still suffering somewhere. Liberation is equivalent to nirvana in Buddhism, which is described as the cessation of suffering and the start of complete peace.

I did a lot of research lol and that is what I got out of it. again all this is just my interpretation based on those facts so I could be completely wrong haha but it makes sense to me. Hopefully that made more sense.
[qoute]

Let me make clear what i was trying to say before, along with an added point:

"What sets Naruto apart is that he has been through each pain of each realm and he has not fallen to hatred, in fact, He has been able to bring peace to them."

The issue in the Deva realm is that they are so happy that they fail to recognize the suffer in others and thus lose karma, once they lose enough karma they eventually drop down into a lower realm. Here we see that suffering is only felt after leaving the realm, but the realm itself caused no pain and suffering. To argue that would be like saying my relationship with my girlfriend was bad because we ended up breaking up. The relationship may have been great, the fact that it is over causes you pain but that is no fault of the relationship itself. Now when you take into account that the Deva realm doesn't literally cause pain, it then contradicts the idea that Naruto suffered through the pain of each realm, although that might be semantics to a certain degree I still think it should be accounted for.

But more importantly I dont know what pain your talking about and how it relates to the samsara wheel. You say "Naruto suffered pain (which we know to be true)", "The Samsura is all about suffering through pain to reach enlightenment (which we know to be true)" But then go to the conclusion that Naruto's Pain is the pain of the Samsura. Now for that claim I would expect you to describe certain pains Naruto goes through, then relate them to each specific realm in the Samsura, which you dont, but then give the conclusion which is that Naruto conquered each realm, which we still have no evidence of, and reached enlightenment.

I guess what I am trying to say with the above is that further elaboration is needed. The thread, to me, feels too vague and is missing certain information/proofs that would normally make for a great theory thread. Said information being something to bridge the gap between Naruto's pain and the Suffering of the Samsura.

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In response to your second part, we need to go further into defining exactly what qualifies as "falling to hatred." To be more precise lets look at this qoute " If you decide to kill those that oppose you then you are not really bringing peace which is why madara said that it will bring darkness to the village."

Now Naruto has killed quite a few people I am sure, but a great example would be Kakuza. Now if turning towards killing once diplomacy fails counts as falling into hatred then why shouldnt this count? Unless there are even more exceptions. Perhaps falling towards hatred is made more specific as meaning killing a friend, perhaps his counterpart Indra. But before Hashirama did it, he didnt. He actually only did it when it was clear that he had no choice but to do it, remember that Madara and Hashirama fought several times after he left the village.

Now one could argue that Naruto as well would have been left no choice but to kill Sasuke if they fought and even tells Sasuke, after sasuke tries to kill Sakura after defeating Danzo, that the next time they fight both of them would die, thus ackowledging that he would have to kill Sasuke. But maybe because he never did it it doesnt count? But then again Madara is still alive, so Hashirama never did it either.

So you need to better explain what seperates Naruto from Hashirama. We have no reason to believe that either one of them did not stick to their conviction, and both have them have resorted to killing.