Zabuza, who is on par with Kakashi, stated himself that Haku is more skilled then he is, and stronger then Kakashi, a Jonin tier. At the absolute minimum, the manga outright states that Haku is already in Jonin class.
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
The manga also established that Jonin's are still well above even SRA Neji's league, seeing as it took the entire Sound 4 to high-diff two Jonin, and Neji could only extreme high diff one of them, whom he stated to be so much stronger then he was.
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
Haku in the war-arc was fast enough to parry Gai's and Lee's kicks, and even intercept Kakashi, who is far more faster and conditioned then his early part 1 self. With actual killing intent and blood lust (which he didn't have in part1), Haku destroys part 1 Neji.
Yet Haku was beat senseless by wave arc KN0 naruto and 1 tomoe Sasuke who was already on his death bed Haku got serious when Sasuke bopped that ass in mid mirror jump hence the reason he didn't want to attack Sasuke head on.
All hat jonin level crap boy bye, Kid Obito who is vastly inferior to wave arc Sasuke was tangling with jonin Minato as a tiny child defeated multiple jonins title means nothing.
Thank you Evani for destroying those arguments him and Draegod always trying to hype someone up.
This is a little hypocrite from me since i lost this in a debate against you lol. But imo, the databook retconned this, when it gave Haku a 20.5 overall, which is 10 points below Zabuza and 12 points below Kakashi.
I also agree with Haizaki's post. Sasuke out performed him without the mirror jutsu. And KN0 Naruto completely overwhelmed him, and KN0 Naruto is not overwhelming a jonin.
I preach feat vs feat/ability vs ability, not simple words. Deidara admitted inferiority to Sasori yet it's quite debatable Deidara is the superior of the two.
Oh yeah? People debate that because Deidara too has stated his art is superior to Sasori's ability previously
You must be registered for see links
but that's not even enough...
- Maybe people debate that because Deidara made that statement to try and separate Naruto and Kakashi which nearly worked as he stated "Kakashi, you want to come after me?" then he made that statement in order to push Kakashi into going sakura and Chiyo way
You must be registered for see links
like how he emphasized on him being the real problem
You must be registered for see links
which he stated he had to deal with despite pledging to take Naruto as he stated "Perfect" when Naruto alone came
You must be registered for see links
Why then would he stop to tell Kakashi that Sasori is stronger when he was already on the move when Naruto was following him?
I won't call it wank. I lost against those argument in a debate, altough i disagreed with the judgement. But i'm just stating my opinion hasn't changed. Haku is on the chunnin tier imo.
Like i said before Haku is supremely overrated,SRA Neji would sh!t bricks on Haku's head. This is why i didn't even argue about who would win, certain match ups should just be obvious to the general public. Shout out to Unorthodox , EZQ and Haizaki for handling the slight work.
"I can't withstand his chakra anymore"(Which means he was before but couldn't keep up)
You must be registered for see links
"I am finished"
You must be registered for see links
"Your tool has failed you"
You must be registered for see links
Him thinking to himself clearly shows that he couldn't win for sure.
OP: Neji would take it in my opinion but certainly won't write-off Haku if it comes to that which I doubt. The Naruto/Sasuke situation taken into account, Haku is skilled and didn't want to kill Sasuke and Naruto. However one can argue that the Haku's great use of his weapon is the main thing to look at when we discuss him not wanting to kill especially considering the fact that he used his most powerful technique. His weapon and not necessarily his full abilities was vital as shown with Zabuza and explained in this entire scan, especially the middle
You must be registered for see links
Neji could pull off things Jounin level Shinobi's couldn't do like stated in the bottom left
You must be registered for see links
, managed to defeat a Shinobi like Kidoumaru despite the location completely being against him, Kidomaru fighting style being a perfect counter to his (even though we saw what happened from close range against Neji) and surpassed the entirety of the Main Branch
You must be registered for see links
which was seen long time by his father at a tender age
You must be registered for see links
to the extent where he was recognized by the Third hokage
You must be registered for see links
and Orochimaru even warned Kidomaru about him
You must be registered for see links
--Indeed Neji has the hype and can back it up with feats and his defensive capabilities as 2T Sasuke kept surprising Haku and surpassed him when it came to speed without his Ice Crystal mirror. When that came up, he reacted to him several times leaving Haku surprised as he said
You must be registered for see links
Even Zabuza knowing Haku's full potential suggested he and Sasuke may be equal because of his remarkable development and we know how inferior that Sasuke is to Neji:
Maintaining the Ice Mirrors requires a lot of chakra, as stated by Haku, who only has a 2/5 stat in stamina to begin with. All those quotes that you took from Haku was stated towards the end of the fight, where Haku's speed and chakra has been long regressed from using so many mirrors for that entire duration. His best speed feat is intercepting a blitz from War-Arc 3T Kakashi.
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
Not only did Haku nigh instantly form his Ice Mirror with Kakashi blitzing from meters away, he completely intercepted Kakashi without the
You must be registered for see links
. That is a feat beyond Neji's capabilities. This is why I stated if Haku has blood lust and killing intent from the start to go all out before his speed starts to gradually decrease, he will win. Unless, of course, you have feats showcasing SRA Neji with the necessary speed to counter something faster then 3T War-Arc Kakashi, whom at this point is a kage tier shinobi - opposed to SRA Neji, who needed an additional 2-3 years of training during the time skip to reach Jonin Rank.
This is a little hypocrite from me since i lost this in a debate against you lol. But imo, the databook retconned this, when it gave Haku a 20.5 overall, which is 10 points below Zabuza and 12 points below Kakashi.
I also agree with Haizaki's post. Sasuke out performed him without the mirror jutsu. And KN0 Naruto completely overwhelmed him, and KN0 Naruto is not overwhelming a jonin.
Even more hypocritical, because if I recall correctly, you were the one to say the DB scores were worth nothing in that Hidan speed discussion? Smh. The DB, in my opinion, is credible when it either concise with what the manga has shown, or in the case of lack of evidence/feats. In Haku's case, we have manga feats and statements that say otherwise. Zabuza, a Jonin, admits inferiority to Haku. The manga outright states that Haku from the very start was going soft on Sasuke and Naruto, and never wanted to kill them. The manga shows Haku in the War-Arc competing against Jonin+ tiers. What else do you need?
Here we have Haku losing to Sasuke in CQC...
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
Wait a minute, that doesn't make sense when Zabuza stated Haku is stronger then him and Kakashi
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
Oh, okay the manga states afterwards it was because he went soft on them
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
Makes even more sense when we see Haku more then handling his own against War Arc Kakashi, Gai, and Lee
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
The latter two, had to use a classified taijutsu move in order to counter Haku's transportation speed
Lee and Guy's dual Taijutsu attack. A spinning roundhouse whirlwind attack with very fast spin. A vanguard whirlwind just like a surging shock which grow hot the battlefield.
Yet, Haku had the reflexes to block a super fast kick from War Arc versions of Gai and Lee, while already traveling at top speed himself leaving even less time to react. Do I need to post scans of part 1 base Lee stomping early part 1 Sasuke, who couldn't react properly to him? Yet, we have Haku reacting to War Arc versions Lee and Gai, who effortlessly stomp early part 1 sasuke blindfolded with both hands tied around their back. These are NOT genin level feats, I don't care what anyone has to say. You put early part 1 Sasuke in place of Haku here, and he is in a fight FAR out of his league. Fact. Haku is literally fighting on par with high Jonin tiers. It took SRA Neji an additional 2-3 years (time skip) to reach Jonin rank. There really should be no denying this. You all are simply very manga misinformed.
Maintaining the Ice Mirrors requires a lot of chakra, as stated by Haku, who only has a 2/5 stat in stamina to begin with. All those quotes that you took from Haku was stated towards the end of the fight, where Haku's speed and chakra has been long regressed from using so many mirrors for that entire duration. His best speed feat is intercepting a blitz from War-Arc 3T Kakashi.
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
Not only did Haku nigh instantly form his Ice Mirror with Kakashi blitzing from meters away, he completely intercepted Kakashi without the
You must be registered for see links
. That is a feat beyond Neji's capabilities. This is why I stated if Haku has blood lust and killing intent from the start to go all out before his speed starts to gradually decrease, he will win. Unless, of course, you have feats showcasing SRA Neji with the necessary speed to counter something faster then 3T War-Arc Kakashi, whom at this point is a kage tier shinobi.
Even more hypocritical, because if I recall correctly, you were the one to say the DB scores were worth nothing in that Hidan speed discussion? Smh. The DB, in my opinion, is credible when it either concise with what the manga has shown, or in the case of lack of evidence/feats. In Haku's case, we have manga feats and statements that say otherwise. Zabuza, a Jonin, admits inferiority to Haku. The manga outright states that Haku from the very start was going soft on Sasuke and Naruto, and never wanted to kill them. The manga shows Haku in the War-Arc competing against Jonin+ tiers. What else do you need?
Here we have Haku losing to Sasuke in CQC...
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
Wait a minute, that doesn't make sense when Zabuza stated Haku is stronger then him and Kakashi
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
Oh, okay the manga states afterwards it was because he went soft on them
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
Makes even more sense when we see Haku more then handling his own against War Arc Kakashi, Gai, and Lee
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
The latter two, had to use a classified taijutsu move in order to counter Haku's transportation speed
Yet, Haku had the reflexes to block a super fast kick from War Arc versions of Gai and Lee, while already traveling at top speed himself leaving even less time to react. Do I need to post scans of part 1 base Lee stomping early part 1 Sasuke, who couldn't react properly to him? Yet, we have Haku reacting to War Arc Lee and Gai. These are NOT genin level feats, I don't care what anyone has to say. You put early part 1 Sasuke in place of Haku here, and he is in a fight FAR out of his league. Fact. Haku is literally fighting on par with high Jonin tiers. It took SRA Neji an additional 3 years (time skip) to reach Jounin rank. There really should be no denying this. You all are simply very manga misinformed.
Lol no FT. I said that Hidan's databook speed is because of his slow striking speed. Dont reach here. And don't put words in my mouth that i haven't said.
Aaand yes, of course. You're using hat one Zabuza statement when Evani's posts already shat on that argument, having more statements and feats against that sole statement
The rest i still don't agree, and i won't argue with you again because we already did in an official statement. That's why i didn't want to argue FEATS and just mentioned statements and databook.
Lol no FT. I said that Hidan's databook speed is because of his slow striking speed. Dont reach here. And don't put words in my mouth that i haven't said.
Aaand yes, of course. You're using hat one Zabuza statement when Evani's posts already shat on that argument, having more statements and feats against that sole statement
The rest i still don't agree, and i won't argue with you again because we already did in an official statement. That's why i didn't want to argue FEATS and just mentioned statements and databook.
Still, what Kishimoto states in the databook is worth nothing, since Hidan was faster than Asuma in every aspect of their fight except from the attack speed, and Asuma has 1 point higher speed.
If you were just referring to what he writes about speed, then fine. There isn't an issue.
Bold is the most pathetic thing I've read on here in a while, especially sad coming from someone's opinion of which I actually value. If you want to blatantly disregard manga feats, which is the most concrete source of evidence we use here, and instead chose to have selective reading with what manga statements you conveniently find credible, then fine. Won't be waisting my time quoting you again.
...Settle yourself. I specifically said, if I recall correctly. , which was not based on nothing.
If you were just referring to what he writes about speed, then fine. There isn't an issue.
Bold is the most pathetic thing I've read on here in a while, especially sad coming from someone's opinion of which I actually value. If you want to blatantly disregard manga feats, which is the most concrete source of evidence we use here, and instead chose to have selective reading with what manga statements you conveniently find credible, then fine. Won't be waisting my time quoting you again.
Yes, i was referring to the attack speed. In that thread, hidan's 3.5 was being used to show him slow, and i was saying that still he was faster tan Asuma, why? Because the statement he made against Yuugito leaves him as a slow attacker.
I was not having selective reading. I do disagree in the feats you posted. I'm just saying, i disagree with them, but won't argue them because we already have, lmao. If you want to do ir okay. I'll be just copy pasting what i already answered to those scans back in our haku thread, no big deal.
So to clear any misunderstanding...
Feats: To me Neji is superior. Disagree with your view on Haku's feats. You already know this.
DB and statements: Arguing that these favour the notion of Haku not being jonin tier
I don't see the selective reading. I was trying to argue the bold.
Hidan was never ever shown to be faster than Asuma. Ever. Movement speed and reaction speed are what determine the speed stat in the databook. Not slow striking speed due to a weapon. Hidan's natural reflexes and movement speed grants him a 3.5. It's really that simple. He can keep up with people who have higher scores in raw speed due to Shunshin but outside of Shunshin his reaction speed and movement speed together grants him a 3.5.
Yes, i was referring to the attack speed. In that thread, hidan's 3.5 was being used to show him slow, and i was saying that still he was faster tan Asuma, why? Because the statement he made against Yuugito leaves him as a slow attacker.
I was not having selective reading. I do disagree in the feats you posted. I'm just saying, i disagree with them, but won't argue them because we already have, lmao. If you want to do ir okay. I'll be just copy pasting what i already answered to those scans back in our haku thread, no big deal.
So to clear any misunderstanding...
Feats: To me Neji is superior. Disagree with your view on Haku's feats. You already know this.
DB and statements: Arguing that these favour the notion of Haku not being jonin tier
I don't see the selective reading. I was trying to argue the bold.
You can't disagree with clear cut feats. In the preliminary exam, we saw the Konoha Jounin easily intercepting Neji in the last second, stopping him from ending Hinata. Haku accomplished the same exact thing, only intercepting 3T War Arc Kakashi. If you think that feat can be accomplished with a Genin or Chuunin level skill set then whatever, nothing left worth discussing with you.
You do have selective reading, because there are manga statements that does say he is Jonin level, that you're conveniently disregarding.
Hidan was never ever shown to be faster than Asuma. Ever. Movement speed and reaction speed are what determine the speed stat in the databook. Not slow striking speed due to a weapon. Hidan's natural reflexes and movement speed grants him a 3.5. It's really that simple. He can keep up with people who have higher scores in raw speed due to Shunshin but outside of Shunshin his reaction speed and movement speed together grants him a 3.5.
You can't disagree with clear cut feats. In the preliminary exam, we saw the Konoha Jounin easily intercepting Neji in the last second, stopping him from ending Hinata. Haku accomplished the same exact thing, only intercepting 3T War Arc Kakashi. If you think that feat can be accomplished with a Genin or Chuunin level skill set then whatever, nothing left worth discussing with you.
Please, don't get all 3 or 4 of the annoying Hidan fans on this site going on this thread.
You can't disagree with clear cut feats. In the preliminary exam, we saw the Konoha Jounin easily intercepting Neji in the last second, stopping him from ending Hinata. Haku accomplished the same exact thing, only intercepting 3T War Arc Kakashi. If you think that feat can be accomplished with a Genin or Chuunin level skill set then whatever, nothing left worth discussing with you.
You do have selective reading, because there are manga statements that does say he is Jonin level, that you're conveniently disregarding.
As i already stated, i won't argue the feats part, you know that my argument is that Haku intercepted Kakashi because the mirrors let him travel huge distances with that kind of ST, but the speed which he comes out of the mirror got reacted to by Sasuke, and Haku himself states that he was aiming for the vitals, while the one who stated Haku didn't have intent to kill was Zabuza (and i already know your answer to this, there's no need to keep this part). And it's not selective reading, since Zabuza states Haku is superior, but then states Sasuke is his rival, Haku himself states that he can't beat kn0 naruto, and etc.. there's obviously a contradiction there. And there's only 1 statement coming from Zabuza that says Haku is jonin tier.
Hidan was never ever shown to be faster than Asuma. Ever. Movement speed and reaction speed are what determine the speed stat in the databook. Not slow striking speed due to a weapon. Hidan's natural reflexes and movement speed grants him a 3.5. It's really that simple. He can keep up with people who have higher scores in raw speed due to Shunshin but outside of Shunshin his reaction speed and movement speed together grants him a 3.5.
Maintaining the Ice Mirrors requires a lot of chakra, as stated by Haku, who only has a 2/5 stat in stamina to begin with. All those quotes that you took from Haku was stated towards the end of the fight, where Haku's speed and chakra has been long regressed from using so many mirrors for that entire duration. His best speed feat is intercepting a blitz from War-Arc 3T Kakashi.
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
Not only did Haku nigh instantly form his Ice Mirror with Kakashi blitzing from meters away, he completely intercepted Kakashi without the
You must be registered for see links
. That is a feat beyond Neji's capabilities. This is why I stated if Haku has blood lust and killing intent from the start to go all out before his speed starts to gradually decrease, he will win. Unless, of course, you have feats showcasing SRA Neji with the necessary speed to counter something faster then 3T War-Arc Kakashi, whom at this point is a kage tier shinobi - opposed to SRA Neji, who needed an additional 2-3 years of training during the time skip to reach Jonin Rank.
Everything in regards to hype was based on their young age and potential to grow. Even so, you didn't see this scan which shuts this Haku argument because this was stated towards the end of the fight from someone who knows him in and out(This was stated towards the end of Zabuza and Kakashi's fight)
You must be registered for see images
Then I addressed the weapon Haku uses which makes sense
You must be registered for see links
considering Haku was a specialist at that as he made it clear here
You must be registered for see links
. What even makes my point easy to agree with is Zabuza's words(who, like I said knows Haku well) upon seeing the techniques Haku was using:
You must be registered for see images
There's even more comparison between Sasuke and Haku
You must be registered for see images
You'll have at least some point if it was just Haku saying this but Zabuza too? Who knows him well? Multiple scans make this thing clear and I can't see how it's possible to deny that Sasuke could match him to an extent without a doubt. Then we have the fact that even with the water clones possessing the Taijutsu skill of the user as stated, Sasuke blitzed multiple of Zabuza's water clones before he unlocked the Sharingan. But that doesn't matter, let's get to the speed department which you speak of:
- Kakashi point. You didn't factor in the fact that the Sharingan's effect being greatly weakened by the Hidden Mist which slows it's reaction speed and reflexes and both times, Kakashi battled him in the Mist when Haku intercepted and Haku is a professional went it comes to silent killing which involves fighting by sound alone. Even if you're going to suggest it doesn't matter, this does:
You must be registered for see images
That's Jounin level Kakashi who had the speed to blitz high level Jounins from other villages but Rin who's not even close can intercept him too. Most importantly, he had the speed to defeat Might Gai and develop his Chidori but this right here is inconsistency at its best when you look at the Rin point and the fact that 2T Sasuke was reading Haku's movements. There's plenty of inconsistencies when it comes to this Jutsu which can also be seen with Sakura being able to mentally react and speak during Kakashi moving:
You must be registered for see images
It's surprising that you'll suggest Haku's speed regressing was also a reason for him being overwhelmed, but then you'll use Haku intercepting Kakashi, who you also consider faster than them as a point even though this occurred after the periods of him battling Naruto and Sasuke? That's a bit biased. Speaking of that:
You must be registered for see images
Haku wasn't the only one running out of Stamina..Sasuke was too. Past his limit and then even worse when you consider he pushes it more upon using the Sharingan when a more experienced part 1 Kakashi felt the effects:
You must be registered for see images
Then there's the fact that Sasuke was only getting used to the environment in his Base and then started seeing Haku a little, that was without his 3T:
You must be registered for see images
The scans confirms it all..Sasuke could see him to an extent and Haku admitted it was dangerous to attack him--went ahead to use Naruto as bait and the more Sasuke battled him, the more he'll observe him more it which makes sense since the more you fight one, the more you get used to their speed as Sasuke was getting used to the environment and Haku's speed which in return, scared Haku in his Base and the Juubito/Naruto/Sasuke situation is a good example
You must be registered for see links
"Starting to sense him better and better" and sensing is much similar to precognition. The fact that Haku saw a serious threat in attacking him says it. There's no way that can be ignored:
You must be registered for see images
That's just it...Sasuke being able to read his movements at the early stage of his Sharingan..It makes no sense to think Haku is stronger than Kakashi but then considered to be an equal and a rival to 2T Sasuke even by Zabuza who has knowledge on his pupil but the other side of this is the fact that Neji just needs to release chakra from his body to counter his Needles like he can do to Kunais as Ten Ten noted and then he can easily follow Haku's speed and further react to him. If Haku thinks it's dangerous to attack 2T Sasuke like he was doing before he unlocked that Sharingan, there little to no reason for me to believe Neji, a much more superior opponent would have any issue with this. Neji wins this fight because of his defense and reaction speed and Haku's lack of ability to hold on his crystal mirror further in the battle. Matter of fact Haku brought out Crystal Mirror because Sasuke trumped him speed wise in Base. If you think it's a good speed feat for Haku to intercept Kakashi at top speed but then downplay Naruto/Sasuke tagging Haku because of his stamina issue even though the Kakashi situation happened after that, then that's obviously a one sided conclusion.
Everything in regards to hype was based on their young age and potential to grow. Even so, you didn't see this scan which shuts this Haku argument because this was stated towards the end of the fight from someone who knows him in and out(This was stated towards the end of Zabuza and Kakashi's fight)
You must be registered for see images
Then I addressed the weapon Haku uses which makes sense
You must be registered for see links
considering Haku was a specialist at that as he made it clear here
You must be registered for see links
. What even makes my point easy to agree with is Zabuza's words(who, like I said knows Haku well) upon seeing the techniques Haku was using:
You must be registered for see images
There's even more comparison between Sasuke and Haku
You must be registered for see images
You'll have at least some point if it was just Haku saying this but Zabuza too? Who knows him well? Multiple scans make this thing clear and I can't see how it's possible to deny that Sasuke could match him to an extent without a doubt. Then we have the fact that even with the water clones possessing the Taijutsu skill of the user as stated, Sasuke blitzed multiple of Zabuza's water clones before he unlocked the Sharingan. But that doesn't matter, let's get to the speed department which you speed of:
- Kakashi point. You didn't factor in the fact that the Sharingan's effect being greatly weakened by the Hidden Mist which slows it's reaction speed and reflexes and both times, Kakashi battled him in the Mist when Haku intercepted and Haku is a professional went it comes to silent killing which involves fighting by sound alone. Even if you're going to suggest it doesn't matter, this does:
You must be registered for see images
That's Jounin level Kakashi who had the speed to blitz high level Jounins from other villages but Rin who's not even close can intercept him too. Most importantly, he had the speed to defeat Might Gai and develop his Chidori but this right here is inconsistency at its best when you look at the Rin point and the fact that 2T Sasuke was reading Haku's movements. There's plenty of inconsistencies when it comes to this Jutsu which can also be seen with Sakura being able to mentally react and speak during Kakashi moving:
You must be registered for see images
It's surprising that you'll suggest Haku's speed regressing was also a reason for him being overwhelmed, but then you'll use Haku intercepting Kakashi, who you also consider faster than them as a point even though this occurred after the periods of him battling Naruto and Sasuke? That's a bit biased. Speaking of that:
You must be registered for see images
Haku wasn't the only one running out of Stamina..Sasuke was too. Past his limit and then even worse when you consider he pushes it more upon using the Sharingan when a more experienced part 1 Kakashi felt some:
You must be registered for see images
Then there's the fact that Sasuke was only getting used to the environment in his Base and then started seeing Haku a little, that was without his 3T:
You must be registered for see images
The scans confirms it all..Sasuke could see him to an extent and Haku admitted it was dangerous to attack him--went ahead to use Naruto as bait and the more Sasuke battled him, the more he'll observe him more it which makes sense since the more you fight one, the more you get used to their speed as Sasuke was getting used to the environment and Haku's speed which scared Haku in his Base and the Juubito/Naruto/Sasuke situation is a good example
You must be registered for see links
"Starting to sense him better and better" and sensing is much similar to precognition. The fact that Haku saw a serious threat in attacking him says it. There's no way that can be ignored:
You must be registered for see images
That's just it...Sasuke being able to read his movements at the early stage of his Sharingan stage..It makes no sense to think Haku is stronger than Kakashi but then considered to be an equal and a rival to 2T Sasuke even by Zabuza who has knowledge on his pupil but the other side of this is the fact that Neji just needs to release chakra from his body to counter his Needles like he can do to Kunais as Ten Ten noted and then he can easily follow Haku's speed and further react to him. If Haku thinks it's dangerous to attack 2T Sasuke head on like he was doing before he unlocked that Sharingan, there little to no reason for me to believe Neji, a much more superior opponent would have any issue with this. Neji wins this fight because of his defense and reaction speed and Haku's lack of ability to hold on his crystal mirror. Matter of fact Haku brought out Crystal Mirror because Sasuke trumped him speed wise in Base. If you think it's a good speed feat for Haku to intercept Kakashi at top speed but then downplay Naruto/Sasuke tagging Haku because of his stamina issue even though the Kakashi situation happened after that, then that's obviously a one sided conclusion.
Everything in regards to hype was based on their young age and potential to grow. Even so, you didn't see this scan which shuts this Haku argument because this was stated towards the end of the fight from someone who knows him in and out(This was stated towards the end of Zabuza and Kakashi's fight)
You must be registered for see images
Then I addressed the weapon Haku uses which makes sense
You must be registered for see links
considering Haku was a specialist at that as he made it clear here
You must be registered for see links
. What even makes my point easy to agree with is Zabuza's words(who, like I said knows Haku well) upon seeing the techniques Haku was using:
You must be registered for see images
There's even more comparison between Sasuke and Haku
You must be registered for see images
You'll have at least some point if it was just Haku saying this but Zabuza too? Who knows him well? Multiple scans make this thing clear and I can't see how it's possible to deny that Sasuke could match him to an extent without a doubt. Then we have the fact that even with the water clones possessing the Taijutsu skill of the user as stated, Sasuke blitzed multiple of Zabuza's water clones before he unlocked the Sharingan. But that doesn't matter, let's get to the speed department which you speed of:
- Kakashi point. You didn't factor in the fact that the Sharingan's effect being greatly weakened by the Hidden Mist which slows it's reaction speed and reflexes and both times, Kakashi battled him in the Mist when Haku intercepted and Haku is a professional went it comes to silent killing which involves fighting by sound alone. Even if you're going to suggest it doesn't matter, this does:
You must be registered for see images
That's Jounin level Kakashi who had the speed to blitz high level Jounins from other villages but Rin who's not even close can intercept him too. Most importantly, he had the speed to defeat Might Gai and develop his Chidori but this right here is inconsistency at its best when you look at the Rin point and the fact that 2T Sasuke was reading Haku's movements. There's plenty of inconsistencies when it comes to this Jutsu which can also be seen with Sakura being able to mentally react and speak during Kakashi moving:
You must be registered for see images
It's surprising that you'll suggest Haku's speed regressing was also a reason for him being overwhelmed, but then you'll use Haku intercepting Kakashi, who you also consider faster than them as a point even though this occurred after the periods of him battling Naruto and Sasuke? That's a bit biased. Speaking of that:
You must be registered for see images
Haku wasn't the only one running out of Stamina..Sasuke was too. Past his limit and then even worse when you consider he pushes it more upon using the Sharingan when a more experienced part 1 Kakashi felt the effects:
You must be registered for see images
Then there's the fact that Sasuke was only getting used to the environment in his Base and then started seeing Haku a little, that was without his 3T:
You must be registered for see images
The scans confirms it all..Sasuke could see him to an extent and Haku admitted it was dangerous to attack him--went ahead to use Naruto as bait and the more Sasuke battled him, the more he'll observe him more it which makes sense since the more you fight one, the more you get used to their speed as Sasuke was getting used to the environment and Haku's speed which in return, scared Haku in his Base and the Juubito/Naruto/Sasuke situation is a good example
You must be registered for see links
"Starting to sense him better and better" and sensing is much similar to precognition. The fact that Haku saw a serious threat in attacking him says it. There's no way that can be ignored:
You must be registered for see images
That's just it...Sasuke being able to read his movements at the early stage of his Sharingan..It makes no sense to think Haku is stronger than Kakashi but then considered to be an equal and a rival to 2T Sasuke even by Zabuza who has knowledge on his pupil but the other side of this is the fact that Neji just needs to release chakra from his body to counter his Needles like he can do to Kunais as Ten Ten noted and then he can easily follow Haku's speed and further react to him. If Haku thinks it's dangerous to attack 2T Sasuke like he was doing before he unlocked that Sharingan, there little to no reason for me to believe Neji, a much more superior opponent would have any issue with this. Neji wins this fight because of his defense and reaction speed and Haku's lack of ability to hold on his crystal mirror further in the battle. Matter of fact Haku brought out Crystal Mirror because Sasuke trumped him speed wise in Base. If you think it's a good speed feat for Haku to intercept Kakashi at top speed but then downplay Naruto/Sasuke tagging Haku because of his stamina issue even though the Kakashi situation happened after that, then that's obviously a one sided conclusion.
