Part 1 Neji vs Haku
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Gabby-chan
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its funny because your Ava is so accurate. Like Akashi, you've crushed your opponents potential and any argument they might be able to muster up subsequent to your post. You absolutely dominated. It was so thorough and well worded. Bravo! That was the kind of post that seems like it might be too long to read, but then when you start reading it you just can't stop!
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Red Slayer
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Neji rapes him.
Haku couldn't even beat Naruto,Sasuke while Rock Lee beat both of them easily with weights on,he was not even trying, and we all know Lee admited infriotity to Neji.
Unorthodox
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Depends on what version of Haku you're referring to.
War Arc Haku negs SRA Neji to oblivion, but if we're specifically referring to P1 Haku, I thought it was rather obvious that Neji would win here. P1 Haku was never portrayed to be on a Jonin's level, dejectedly admitting inferiority to KN0 Naruto whilst resorting to cheap tactics such as targeting an unconscious Naruto to create an opening against Wave Arc Haku all gave the impression that Haku was never as strong as Zabuza boasted about.
The Databook scores themselves reflects this, giving Haku abysmal scores in comparison to other Jonin.
I'm honestly conflicted with Forbidden's assessment mostly because Genma suggested a platoon of Jonin would be a wise decision in combating the Sound Four with the Hunter Ninja that Orochimaru employed to target Naruto, Sakura, and Shikamaru were all stated to be above the Chuunin Level. I thought it was quite obvious that the Sound Four were all Jonin Level, albeit, not Adept Jonin.
War Arc Haku negs SRA Neji to oblivion, but if we're specifically referring to P1 Haku, I thought it was rather obvious that Neji would win here. P1 Haku was never portrayed to be on a Jonin's level, dejectedly admitting inferiority to KN0 Naruto whilst resorting to cheap tactics such as targeting an unconscious Naruto to create an opening against Wave Arc Haku all gave the impression that Haku was never as strong as Zabuza boasted about.
The Databook scores themselves reflects this, giving Haku abysmal scores in comparison to other Jonin.
I'm honestly conflicted with Forbidden's assessment mostly because Genma suggested a platoon of Jonin would be a wise decision in combating the Sound Four with the Hunter Ninja that Orochimaru employed to target Naruto, Sakura, and Shikamaru were all stated to be above the Chuunin Level. I thought it was quite obvious that the Sound Four were all Jonin Level, albeit, not Adept Jonin.
Red Slayer
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Even if he or she is somehow comparable to jounin it still means nothing there are thousands fodder weakling jounins out there and their skills are shit. Asuma,Neji,Zabuza,part 1 Kakashi and this tier shinobis are not just jounins, they elite jounins that is why they are more or less known shinobis War arc Gai and Kakashi, even orochimaru and Jiraiya are jounins but they are Kage lvl and they will neg any so called jounins easily.
All i am trying to say is that,when someone's skills are compared to jounins skills, u dont have to think that he has same lvl skills as Kakashi,Asuma,Gai,Hiashi or others.... Jounins in general are fodders
for example: Furui(yes this Guy is Jounin,he is Motoi's father and Motoi is killer Bee friend) probably 95% of Jounins are like him..... known Jounins are not simple jounins they are all special and way above than Jounin lvl.
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UnknownJin
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One thing I've not talked about in this thread. War Arc Gai and Lee.
Why would War Arc Haku win, but then Pt1 Haku lose? Edo Haku is War Arc Haku and regains abilities he had in his previous state. The argument you guys are probably going to use is the Gai and Lee but you guys need to stop referencing "War Arc Gai", especially when that's a collaboration attack. Gai and Lee are landing their attack at the same time while moving at the same pace. Lee was most likely wearing weights like he always does but even so, you can see how a collaboration works when you look at Kid Bee matching Ay in speed to land hits. Same thing with Adult B in his V1 cloak. It doesn't make sense because it's a collaboration technique. Let me go further and note to you that Kisame, was running towards Asuma and Kakashi to take them out but then got intercepted by Gai, who he failed to react to
Then there's the fact that Base Ay himself could physically blitz Zetsu with zero reactions
Why would War Arc Haku win, but then Pt1 Haku lose? Edo Haku is War Arc Haku and regains abilities he had in his previous state. The argument you guys are probably going to use is the Gai and Lee but you guys need to stop referencing "War Arc Gai", especially when that's a collaboration attack. Gai and Lee are landing their attack at the same time while moving at the same pace. Lee was most likely wearing weights like he always does but even so, you can see how a collaboration works when you look at Kid Bee matching Ay in speed to land hits. Same thing with Adult B in his V1 cloak. It doesn't make sense because it's a collaboration technique. Let me go further and note to you that Kisame, was running towards Asuma and Kakashi to take them out but then got intercepted by Gai, who he failed to react to
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--->
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That's the single form(Leaf Hurricane) of Gai and Lee's collaboration technique and this is the same exact scenario with Haku as he too, was speeding towards and opponents and got intercepted. Hold up, does that make sense? How can it be that Kisame failed react to a part 1 Gai despite being able to react to V1/V2 Killer B? Meanwhile Haku can react in the same exact scenario to War Arc Gai? Leaf Hurricane itself has never been a special attack known for its speed. It has even led to another downgrading Lee's speed based on this attack "You're not that fast after all" (You can flip to the previous scans and you'll see it's Leaf Hurrcane)
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"He may be fast BUT his kick(Leaf Hurricane).."
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and Sasuke who couldn't read Lee's movements as he said, reacted to this technique
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even though in that scan, he had no time to block Lee's other attacks and further got destroyed.Then there's the fact that Base Ay himself could physically blitz Zetsu with zero reactions
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meanwhile, V1 Ay collaborating with V1 B wasn't fast enough compared to that as Zetsu could physically clap his hand in the top after they had moved (Zetsu switched with Kisame if you recall)
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Haku's feat was nice and all that but we've seen enough that suggest he'll lose against Neji, who also tracked 5G Lee with his Byakugan alone while Sasuke perceived Haku's movements with his 2T making Haku eschewed the thought of attacking him. Some of you say "Stomp"? How? Not possible.
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TRE MERCER
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Damn Haizaki been eating mfs up lately he completely shat on Forbidden tech overrated ass. LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Came across this in the DB1 while preparing for my debate. Kishi seems to be against the notion that Haku was playing around:
"The mist increased and he attacked Sasuke with a murderous intent!"
"The mist increased and he attacked Sasuke with a murderous intent!"
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Forbidden Technique
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No, it wasn't. Zabuza specifically stated that even if Kakashi managed to beat him, he wouldn't be able to beat Haku. That is speaking in current time. I did see that scan, and it doesn't disprove anything I've stated. Zabuza made that statement based off the hype of Sasuke's KKG, and his Uchiha name.
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Even then, Zabuza specifically stated that he may indeed be Haku's equal, which is a big difference from saying he is indeed Haku's equal. That is not a convincing factual statement, because may means it is a possibility, not a definite fact. Especially not a concrete statement, considering it was mainly based off Sasuke's hype of being the heir of one of the greatest clans renown around the shinobi world.
You're going to need to elaborate here. I don't understand your point with the weapons, and scan of Zabuza questioning whether or not Haku had killing intent. The very fact that Haku is so proficient in a skill utilized by the Mist Villages hunter-nin speaks about his overall maturity and skill set. And it is a manga fact that Haku didn't ever want to kill Naruto and Sasuke.
Which was negated when Zabuza later stated he believes Haku is stronger then both him and Kakashi, something he wasn't going to outright disclose to Kakashi from the start. It means nothing when Haku stated "What a pity" once Zabuza ordered him to get serious, and use his KKG. You're taking your one sided statements, and not considering the following that contradicts and overrides them. Those Mizu Bunshins only have 1/10 the users strength, by the way. So that doesn't go to say Sasuke>Zabuza.
Zabuza, as well as the surrounding area, were clearly perfectly visible within close range. This shouldn't be disputable, just look at the scan. You can see that vision get's blurry from a distance, but not within the vicinity that Haku and his Mirrors sprung from.
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That's because it wasn't a V2 Mist.
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is practically zero visibility, as Kakashi and Tazuna noted. In their very first encounter when Zabuza used a V1 Mist, Kakashi didn't have too much trouble keeping track of Zabuza and copying his jutsu despite
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at that point. By the War-Arc, Kakashi is obviously much more proficient with the 3T Sharingan, mastered it, I'd say. So this isn't a valid argument in discrediting Haku's feat.These are not comparable scenarios.
For one, you're attempting to argue that Haku is on Genin Sasuke level. So you're drawing a comparison with a supposed Genin caliber shinobi (Haku) intercepting a Kage caliber shinobi (War-Arc Kakashi), with another Genin-Chuunin caliber (Rin) and a newly ranked Jonin (Kid Kakashi). Comparing both feats from the surface, Haku still has a FAR superior feat, because he intercepted the strongest version of Kakashi in the manga (excluding DMS), while Rin intercepted him while being a rookie Jonin. If Haku is as weak as you say, then the gap between Rin and Haku is not even slightly comparable to the gap between these two versions of Kakashi.
Second, we do not know from what distance Kakashi initiated his blitz from, nor do we know from what distance Rin came from. For all we know, he could of very well charged from a long distance range, just like we've seen him do
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, while it was said Rin only
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in front of Raikiri.Actually, in the panel I highlighted below, we can see Rin already falling in front of Kakashi, which means she had anticipated his next target, and made her leap way before the position we see Kakashi in.
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We also know for a fact that Rin wasn't fast enough to intercept 3T Kakashi without his knowledge before impact. As you can clearly see, Kakashi saw her leap in front on him before drawing contact, which was not the case in the scenario with Haku.
In Haku's case, we don't need to know his starting point, because we know that his transportation doesn't initiate until after the Ice Mirror(s) are completely formed. In the first manga below, Kakashi was within meters of nailing Zabuza with the mirror just starting to form. Next thing we know, the Ice Mirror was completely formed near instantly, with Haku transporting through it so fast that nothing indicated Kakashi noticing until after he was intercepted.
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Again, this is a far superior feat to your Rin counter example. Night and day difference. It is not a feat that a Genin or Chuunin can accomplish, period.
Bruh, it should be known by now that speaking during movement isn't a logical argument. I can give you numerous examples of a top tiers like 8G Gai in movement, while sentences are being made out. It's not because characters are all the sudden speaking abnormally faster... The author has to convey us the text somehow. It's the same thing as using clothes as a logical argument for damage output, when obviously the author isn't going to draw naked characters. Those two arguments need to be left alone.
With that being said, I don't see any issue with Sakura being able to mentally process that a Jonin tier is in linear movement.
It's not biased at all when you consider utilizing 20+ Mirrors at once is way more chakra taxing then just the one, when he intercepted Kakashi back in part 1. Plus, the fact that Haku had a little bit of time in between to knead some chakra back.
It doesn't matter that towards the end Sasuke was exhausting his capabilities. At the very beginning of the fight when they were both relatively fresh, Sasuke couldn't do a damn thing. That is the whole point here that you keep on missing. I'm arguing Haku's speed at his peak, not when he started to regress. When Haku first started to utilize his KKG, his speed was absolutely shitting on Sasuke, who obviously wasn't exhausted at that point either.
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Why did Sasuke start picking up on his movements?
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Why were Haku's attacks becoming weaker?
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Again, that whole latter half of the fight that you keep referencing is completely irrelevant to my point. Sasuke only began picking up on Haku's speed when it started to gradually regress significantly. My argument from the very beginning is that Haku has to go all out against Neji from the start. So the only thing that needs to be assessed is Haku's speed when he was moving at his fastest, which was in the beginning of the fight.
You need to understand how fast Haku travels between the mirrors. The DB hypes it up to be "literal light speed movement", the manga makes it clear that it is in fact ridiculously fast at it's peak speed.Databook I said:
Here we have Haku moving between mirrors as if time for everything else has stopped. In the blue boxes, Haku makes a whole bunch of instant movements while Naruto and his bunshins aren't moving at all. They all dispersed at the very same time, because it was though Haku hit them all simultaneously due to his speed. In the red box, the water didn't even slightly move from it's position either until Haku ended his transportation. Try to comprehend how fast this is. Haku's speed went above Sasuke and Naruto's comprehension here.
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Almost everything mentioned here is again, irrelevant to my point. You're taking everything that occurred after Haku regressed, and using it as proof to disprove my point which only entails Haku at his peak. That is the only thing that needs to be considered in this debate.
Unorthodox
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Dude still trying to argue? He reaching like a MF with this low chakra arguement like Sasuke was not out of chakra either put it like this Haku best speed feet is intercepting Kakashi. Naruto snagged haku up before he could get back in the Mirror, Sasuke intercepted him mirror jumping which > his foot speed. Also we've never seen no Ninja go from "war arc Kakashi level" to well below wave arc half dead Sasuke level from low chakra lol. Ms Sasuke was blind and drained of his chairs yet still fought on par with Kakashi and there are many more examples.
Wave arc Haku and Edo Haku are the same.
Edit - Using that light speed movement nonsense? So Haku must be faster than Kaguya and everyone else huh? Smh the databook is insanely flawed people still use that as credibility. Weak ass arguments.
Wave arc Haku and Edo Haku are the same.
Edit - Using that light speed movement nonsense? So Haku must be faster than Kaguya and everyone else huh? Smh the databook is insanely flawed people still use that as credibility. Weak ass arguments.
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Forbidden Technique
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Now you're going to attempt to discredit Rock Lee? By DB3, Rock Lee was already classified a taijutsu master, and he only get's stronger by the War-Arc so he could eventually catch up and surpass Gai like it was stated.
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Lee back in the CE was not a master taijutus user. You can tell by observing his body posture with the technique in CE and that of the War-Arc is is completely different, despite being essentially the same attack as you noted. Why? Because Lee is much more polished and skilled in taijutsu now. Not to mention, obviously way faster, and stronger. Then we have the fact that you're comparing CE Rock Lee using Leaf Whirlwind on stationary targets, with War Arc Rock Lee using it on a target moving high speeds straight into it. The stationary target will have a much more easier time countering, then the person assisting the technique by traveling straight into it. Haku, one again, displayed physical reaction far above that of a genin.
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You don't have a point here. Zetsu absorbing Kisame's chakra and becoming his clone obviously heightened his capabilities. Haku at the peak of his abilities has displayed feats well above the capability of a Genin or Chuunin rank, being relevant in a fight composed of Jonin and even Kage tier shinobi. If SRA Neji still needed 2-3 years of training and growth during the time skip to finally reach Jonin rank, his part 1 skill set is not cutting it against an opponent fighting well above that level.
TRE MERCER
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Data book people hate it when using Itach tata and totsuka feats but love when it refers to anything else lol.
Forbidden Technique
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There's nothing to argue here.. Arguing the Rin point is ridiculous. You can't try to discredit that because the entire thing is you assuming what you think happened in order to pull the point down. What we know is she jumped in and intercepted it which is no different from Haku's case, the rest is you thinking she anticipated his next opponent despite there being couple of members he had to attack(from short range) but Haku who excels in fighting by sound alone didn't anticipate when it comes to your case? Based on what exactly? Not to mention the fact that Chidori is classified as a short range technique making it even difficult for Rin to come in once he starts moving. Anticipating who's next isn't an easy job given the fact that it's based on nothing and the fact that the other Anbu members they were fighting couldn't anticipate who Kakashi was attacking next in order to prevent/counter him is one to consider let alone Rin doing so. My point is, what's this based on? You're just trying to pull it down to make Haku look good but that doesn't work. The exclamation mark is irrelevant because there was one the second Kakashi hit Haku..He couldn't stop it because of the close distance in both cases. The way it was presented to us in both cases by the Manga is the difference here. Rin is a flashback that already happened with it being explained, Haku is something we don't expect and then comes as a surprise to us. I literally showed Sakura being able to follow Kakashi's movements once he moved. Please don't tell me you think it's normal for her to follow his movement when Base Rock Lee's movements can't be followed by her fellow mates (Not to mention Sakura actually failed to track Sasuke in pt1 when he was leaving to Orochimaru) One's that may be superior to her such department:
What of Haku not wanting to attack a past limit Sasuke because it was dangerous but using Naruto as bait? Once Sasuke unlocked his 2T? Not addressed except you keep using this stamina point when Sasuke to was past his limit. DB "As the mist increased" and I showed Sasuke in Base stating his eyes was just adjusting to the environment, meaning Sasuke was at disadvantage too without his Sahringan. Sasuke had being tired too so you have no point here for sure. Then we have the fact that I showed:
- He can read his movements. Both were tired. Sasuke wasn't used to the environment but got used to it laster which became a problem.
- Zabuza stating they're equal several times
- Rin point which you clearly could use facts but assumptions. You can't just suggest what you think when we have the fact that the technique is a short one too. If Rin started acting as early as you're trying to make it seemlol), then Kakashi's Sharingan would have helped counter it beforehand. Then what of the fact that the technique is short ranged. Either way, your point is backed on nothing so there's nothing to drag here.
- Sasuke wasn't used to the environment. He was past his limit.
- There's a clear fact that Haku didn't want to attack Sasuke because it was dangerous. There's the fact that Sakura was following his movements which makes no sense.
20 Mirrors? This won't make a difference. Why? The only reason 20 mirrors would be relevant would be based on the fact that his chakra is drained even more when he has 20 up at the same time. Which means his speed decreases faster since Sasuke said:"There's a limit to his chakra" as his attacks got weaker. Which means he was getting weaker as his chakra was being drained. Which means the more chakra he uses to hold up the mirrors, the faster his chakra drains. This only goes against you since the chakra was considerably drained before the moment of him deciding to use a single mirror against Kakashi. This doesn't take him back to top speed but rather a more drained Haku from his previous state using a single mirror that takes less chakra.
("You're not that fast after all" (You can flip to the previous scans and you'll see it's Leaf Hurrcane)
This doesn't have to do with whether one is stationary or not. Temari states he's fast but that particular kick isn't special. She even used the technique to deem him not fast because of that Kick solely. Sasuke is in a stationary position and react to just that Kick alone but fails to do so when it comes to his other technique. Asides that, I point out Gai being able to perform the same exact thing with Kisame failing to react. You couldn't speak on that. When a collaboration is used, they're full speed isn't seen. Ay having equal speed to Kid B makes no sense and that's all that needs to be said. Gai and Kisame scenario makes this clear compared to the Gai and Haku point. I don't know if Zetsu got a ridiculous boost form Kisame that increased his reaction speed. Maybe other know so I won't duel on that.
The Manga has stated enough regarding Haku. You're only trying to overrate his abilities for us but it doesn't work when Sasuke can follow his speed with his stamina equally gone. Even worse than Haku since he was past his limit.
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What of Haku not wanting to attack a past limit Sasuke because it was dangerous but using Naruto as bait? Once Sasuke unlocked his 2T? Not addressed except you keep using this stamina point when Sasuke to was past his limit. DB "As the mist increased" and I showed Sasuke in Base stating his eyes was just adjusting to the environment, meaning Sasuke was at disadvantage too without his Sahringan. Sasuke had being tired too so you have no point here for sure. Then we have the fact that I showed:
- He can read his movements. Both were tired. Sasuke wasn't used to the environment but got used to it laster which became a problem.
- Zabuza stating they're equal several times
- Rin point which you clearly could use facts but assumptions. You can't just suggest what you think when we have the fact that the technique is a short one too. If Rin started acting as early as you're trying to make it seem
lol), then Kakashi's Sharingan would have helped counter it beforehand. Then what of the fact that the technique is short ranged. Either way, your point is backed on nothing so there's nothing to drag here.- Sasuke wasn't used to the environment. He was past his limit.
- There's a clear fact that Haku didn't want to attack Sasuke because it was dangerous. There's the fact that Sakura was following his movements which makes no sense.
20 Mirrors? This won't make a difference. Why? The only reason 20 mirrors would be relevant would be based on the fact that his chakra is drained even more when he has 20 up at the same time. Which means his speed decreases faster since Sasuke said:"There's a limit to his chakra" as his attacks got weaker. Which means he was getting weaker as his chakra was being drained. Which means the more chakra he uses to hold up the mirrors, the faster his chakra drains. This only goes against you since the chakra was considerably drained before the moment of him deciding to use a single mirror against Kakashi. This doesn't take him back to top speed but rather a more drained Haku from his previous state using a single mirror that takes less chakra.
Where did I attempt to discredit Rock Lee. Stationary point? I don't think you read my post properly:
("You're not that fast after all" (You can flip to the previous scans and you'll see it's Leaf Hurrcane)
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"He may be fast BUT his kick(Leaf Hurricane).."
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and Sasuke who couldn't read Lee's movements as he said, reacted to this technique
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even though in that scan, he had no time to block Lee's other attacks and further got destroyed.)This doesn't have to do with whether one is stationary or not. Temari states he's fast but that particular kick isn't special. She even used the technique to deem him not fast because of that Kick solely. Sasuke is in a stationary position and react to just that Kick alone but fails to do so when it comes to his other technique. Asides that, I point out Gai being able to perform the same exact thing with Kisame failing to react. You couldn't speak on that. When a collaboration is used, they're full speed isn't seen. Ay having equal speed to Kid B makes no sense and that's all that needs to be said. Gai and Kisame scenario makes this clear compared to the Gai and Haku point. I don't know if Zetsu got a ridiculous boost form Kisame that increased his reaction speed. Maybe other know so I won't duel on that.
The Manga has stated enough regarding Haku. You're only trying to overrate his abilities for us but it doesn't work when Sasuke can follow his speed with his stamina equally gone. Even worse than Haku since he was past his limit.
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KidGamer65
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Forbidden Technique
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Smh, wrong, wrong, wrong. Evani, I got midterms this week. Swamped with school work. I'll address that post within the next few days, or soon as I can. In the mean time, analyze and read my post more clearly. You seem rushed.